A United States of Europe- is that possible? Would you like to see it happen?

Don't forget all those who left were outcasts or couldn't make it so they went to the USA to give up their nationalities to become Americans. In Europe those who remained fought for their nationalities. You got the winners and they ain't gonna give up easy.

does a united europe scare you? does it go against your interest as a chinese person?
 
I want a strong EU but I am showing the difficulties. Maybe it should be partial with only former Charlemagne Empire where those countries feel comfortable with each other. EU affects the world and with a broken EU it makes the world less safe. Some regions are incompatible with the Charlemagne Empire and forcing them in would create only disaster. They should allow for those to withdraw. There is no provision for withdrawal for an amicable separation. It seems almost like a Catholic marriage - no divorce.

A strong union is where people feel they are part of it and defend it. A forced union only bring discord and weakens it. It cannot last long. The present situation shows discord in economic thinking and cultural differences so EU needs a rethink or reboot and allow for amicable withdrawal and refrain from vengeful reprisals. An amicable separation could lead to a future union. There is no need to rush things. Greece, Spain or Italy are not going to fall into the Mediterranean Sea and disappear. There will be there for ages. Think long term.
 
I want a strong EU but I am showing the difficulties.

That sounds a little hard to believe. A strong EU with a coordinated economic policy is just a bigger more powerful competitor to the asian producers. Now you want your competitors to unite!!
 
That sounds a little hard to believe. A strong EU with a coordinated economic policy is just a bigger more powerful competitor to the asian producers. Now you want your competitors to unite!!
Keep in mind that competitor is also a consumer. In this case rich Europe would consume more Chinese goods, and vise versa. It is actually win/win situation if it comes to economy. Countries wealth is not about money, it is about production. Look at Germany and Greece example. One produces one doesn't, and one is in trouble.
 
Keep in mind that competitor is also a consumer. In this case rich Europe would consume more Chinese goods, and vise versa. It is actually win/win situation if it comes to economy. Countries wealth is not about money, it is about production. Look at Germany and Greece example. One produces one doesn't, and one is in trouble.

"Win-Win" were words people were using in the US in the early 2000-s when they started importing almost everything from China and outsorcing their tech-jobs to India; now they're in recession since 2007...
Outsorcing jobs and importing everything is the quickest way to destroy your local economy; and the Chinese know it, that's why they don't do that. They're increasing their grip on production and prime resources worldwide and patiently waiting for everybody else to slowly weaken.
 
"Win-Win" were words people were using in the US in the early 2000-s when they started importing almost everything from China and outsorcing their tech-jobs to India; now they're in recession since 2007...
Outsorcing jobs and importing everything is the quickest way to destroy your local economy; and the Chinese know it, that's why they don't do that. They're increasing their grip on production and prime resources worldwide and patiently waiting for everybody else to slowly weaken.

could you live in China and not be a party member?
 
Keep in mind that competitor is also a consumer. In this case rich Europe would consume more Chinese goods, and vise versa. It is actually win/win situation if it comes to economy. Countries wealth is not about money, it is about production. Look at Germany and Greece example. One produces one doesn't, and one is in trouble.

at 1920's USA had the biggest production ever,
he produce many times than british empire,
yet she run crush?
why?
cause production with no market MEANS NOTHING,

LET GERMANY PRODUCE DOUBLE
IF COUNTRIES CAN NOT ABSORVE WHAT SHE PRODUCE SHE IS DOOMED.
 
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No i would not like to see it happen, but i know that some people would, and they have the power and the money. Let's hope someone get's them to drop the gun before they fire it.
 
could you live in China and not be a party member?
I'm sure the average person there has not much voice in economical foreign policy. But their policy is smart (and selfish), it is everybody else who is getting hurt by it and letting it happen that is acting stupid. Do you think there is not 100 different ethnicities within china itself? they're strong because they're united.
 
"Win-Win" were words people were using in the US in the early 2000-s when they started importing almost everything from China and outsorcing their tech-jobs to India; now they're in recession since 2007...
Outsorcing jobs and importing everything is the quickest way to destroy your local economy; and the Chinese know it, that's why they don't do that.
You are wrong. Last recession wasn't about production, but it was about financial sector screwup. Plus public debt and deficit got overwhelming.

They're increasing their grip on production and prime resources worldwide and patiently waiting for everybody else to slowly weaken
Lol, who will they sell to if all the world will be weak and poor?

Do you think you can print money to buy from Chinese? I have to disappoint you, it doesn't work this way. Except for USA, because US dollars are used for international exchanges of goods.
 
I'm sure the average person there has not much voice in economical foreign policy. But their policy is smart (and selfish), it is everybody else who is getting hurt by it and letting it happen that is acting stupid. Do you think there is not 100 different ethnicities within china itself? they're strong because they're united.
They are united by force at the moment. When political liberalization takes effect in China, in about few years, China will disintegrate like Soviet Union. There will be a strong core remaining however.
By that time India will be most populous country in the world.
 
You are wrong. Last recession wasn't about production, but it was about financial sector screwup.
So outsorcing, importing everything, and having a 100% service-based economy had nothing to do with it!! Have you wondered why people started losing their jobs and not be able to pay their mortgages anymore? They weren't all irresponsible borrowers; most of them could actually pay for stuff at some point in time. How about Japan who has been in a crisis for the past 20+ years, as soon as China's star started to shine. Do you think their blood-feud is only about past history?


Lol, who will they sell to if all the world will be weak and poor?

The will not let it be that poor, but they'll let it be be sick, dependent, and barely making it. It's like the drug dealer who keeps everybody hooked. But whatever, I guess most people never see the iceberg until it's too late.
 
When political liberalization takes effect in China, in about few years, China will disintegrate like Soviet Union.
It doesn't look like there is any liberalization in sight anywhere in the world today thou. Everything is going towards stronger control.
 
It doesn't look like there is any liberalization in sight anywhere in the world today thou. Everything is going towards stronger control.
That's exactly what people were saying 20 years ago about Soviet Block.
 
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So outsorcing, importing everything, and having a 100% service-based economy had nothing to do with it!!
Who has 100% service economy?



Have you wondered why people started losing their jobs and not be able to pay their mortgages anymore?
I don't need to wonder. I know exactly what happen.

They weren't all irresponsible borrowers; most of them could actually pay for stuff at some point in time.
I wasn't talking about personal debts at all. Personal debt is not a factor in this recession.


How about Japan who has been in a crisis for the past 20+ years
Again, Japan is in financial crisis, not production one. Go to Japan and see how their recession looks like.

and you'll see how good life is as soon as China's star started to shine. Do you think their blood-feud is only about past history?
Lol, how do you explain EU then. Do you know how much blood-feud used to be in Europe?




The will not let it be that poor, but they'll let it be be sick, dependent, and barely making it. It's like the drug dealer who keeps everybody hooked. But whatever, I guess most people never see the iceberg until it's too late.
Now it is official, you are afraid of China. It reminds me how Americans were scared of rise of Japan in 70s and 80s. "They will come and buy out America..., run, run, it is worse than Pearl Harbor."
 
Who has 100% service economy?



I don't need to wonder. I know exactly what happen.

I wasn't talking about personal debts at all. Personal debt is not a factor in this recession.


Again, Japan is in financial crisis, not production one. Go to Japan and see how their recession looks like.

Lol, how do you explain EU then. Do you know how much blood-feud used to be in Europe?





Now it is official, you are afraid of China. It reminds me how Americans were scared of rise of Japan in 70s and 80s. "They will come and buy out America..., run, run, it is worse than Pearl Harbor."

somehow you are right?
but China did not bought USA?
I read an article about Ohio and I read that most of its unemployment is because USA sold to China the bioggest and most modern machines of metal beams,
9/11 also show that,
the biggest factories of metallic beams, the ones who build twin towers etc and Chicago skyscrapers are sold.
a fine technology in steel production sold,

the most fantastic is NIKE story.
strange isn't it?
yet we consider Nike shoes 'made in USA' cause 'Air Jordan' wore those.
 
Now it is official, you are afraid of China. It reminds me how Americans were scared of rise of Japan in 70s and 80s. "They will come and buy out America..., run, run, it is worse than Pearl Harbor."
The word is not "afraid", but "careful". We're talking about a country with giant population, the vast majority of which has a third-world income. The core of the problem is that everybody is trying to have them do the actual work because it's cheap. What that does is give the income of your middle class to their poor class, which means you'll end up with only very rich and very poor people in your own country, no more middle class.
 
The word is not "afraid", but "careful". We're talking about a country with giant population, the vast majority of which has a third-world income.
Together with development and growth of Chinese economy their wages will grow too. It is only a matter of time when their salaries will catch up to the rest of developed world and they will lose advantage of cheap labour. Same process happened in Japan, Hong Kong, Korea and Singapore. Therefore there is no reason to suspect that it won't happen in China, India and rest of Far East, at some point in the future.

Actually some manufacturing is already coming back to USA. Automations and robotics made producing many items cheaper than they could be manufactured by inexpensive Asian labour and transported to America. This is the future trend, will hugely accelerate soon. Robots and machines will make all our goods soon, replacing people in production. This will bring enormous shift of wealth sharing social structure, taxation, cash flows, education, etc. This is much bigger issue than Chinese influence.


The core of the problem is that everybody is trying to have them do the actual work because it's cheap. What that does is give the income of your middle class to their poor class, which means you'll end up with only very rich and very poor people in your own country, no more middle class.
I don't follow how it works.
In China there used to be few rich members of Politburo and the rest were dirt poor. Thanks to embracing capitalism(for first time) now they have 400 million of middle class. 25 years of capitalism and 400 million was lifted out of poverty! Do you see the trend?
The good news is that more people have, the less they want to fight and fewer reasons they have die for. If we take away young man out of equation (who want to fight by nature call), the rest of society wants the same regardless where on planet they live. They want food, clothes, cars, homes, family, kids, vacation and die old. Prosperity everywhere is a recipe for peace on Earth.
 
somehow you are right?
but China did not bought USA?
I read an article about Ohio and I read that most of its unemployment is because USA sold to China the bioggest and most modern machines of metal beams,
9/11 also show that,
the biggest factories of metallic beams, the ones who build twin towers etc and Chicago skyscrapers are sold.
a fine technology in steel production sold,
These buildings were built in 80s. By technological standards of today it is an old technology.

the most fantastic is NIKE story.
strange isn't it?
yet we consider Nike shoes 'made in USA' cause 'Air Jordan' wore those.
That's how creative USA is. They have capacity and capital to invent things, and then it naturally tricles down to the rest of the world. In 80s revolutionary thing were the sport shoes. Now it is the Google, Android, WiFi, smart phones, and robotics (coming fast).

What makes me angry is that people know so little about production, although they want all the stuff. Look around how much things we use in our life. Food processing is done mostly by machines these days, cars by robots, furniture rarely are made of real wood these days, and amazing electronics. If you take away everything that we made using machines (meaning: invention and technology) there will be nothing left to look at, except naked people, and only during a day, unless you make a torch. That's what technology, creativity, science and capitalism brought to the world, plus 5 billion more people. (without technology in food production, we could only feed 2 billion max).
And yet ordinary folks know much more about stupid things celebrities and politicians did yesterday, than about how today's marvel of transportation comes to existence, the car. (The thing you can travel 1000 km a day, in constant temperature, listening to your favorite music. Not even King could have it 100 years ago. Thing, that even ordinary people can afford today)

And yet these celebrities loving citizens elect our leaders to run our economy. It is incredible that our production of our goods work at all, lol. It shows how resilient and forgiving capitalism is.
 
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Hi, My name is Dawn and I'm new to this forum but this thread struck a chord and I just had to comment. I hope Europe can find a common ground of governance in a unified system and I sincerely hope your leaders get it right and keep from becoming corrupted by those in power! I am an American of European descent with an interest in history and was proud of having been born in a country that gave the world a dream of freedom and democracy for over 2 centuries! Are own history definitely didn't live up to those ideals as our history with of our Native population proves and only the Civil Rights movement gave people of color the same rights we held dear. Unfortunately we were also beginning to deny those democratic ideals decades ago when we allowed ideology to govern our actions both at home and abroad in very undemocratic ways. Ronald Reagan is given credit for the fall of communism in Russia while it was Gorbachev who was the true hero for trying to revive his country from a corrupt system that had been failing for decades and had denied basic rights to it's citizens. Gorbachev won the Nobel Peace prize for his ideas and actions that but it's Ronald Reagan who receives all the credit here.

In the last 50 years in America we allowed "Democracy" to become corrupted by ideology and by abdicating our own rights when we began to blindly follow our political leaders and allowed them to become corrupted by money and their sole focus of winning the next election. Democracy was corrupted when our national leaders continued to pursue the ideal that our form of Democracy was what should govern the world and by standards we determined were right for everyone else. We disrespected their beliefs and proved it every time we sent a woman to conduct foreign policy or other business with heads of state in countries where women can't even drive!

Sadly today very few American's realize that the rise of Anti-American Islamists starting with us in Iran in the 1950s. Even when the truth of our dealings in the Middle East with the Eisenhower, Reagan and Bush administrations came to light instead of being a time of realization and serious policy changes we instead continued to portray ourselves as the Democratic ideal and continued the same failed foreign policies abroad.

Obama might have been able to start a path to healing but the damage of 2 wars was already done so when the uprisings in the Middle East began even those countries who allowed greater freedoms to women and others are now threatened to be subverted by the leaders who would deny it. While I'm surprised that any democratic ideals sprang forth the Middle East after our national leaders and prominent religious leaders denouncing the entire Muslim faith as evil and a violent religion while laws were being passed violating the 1st Amendment rights of Muslims here in our own country. Muslims have lived in this country in peace for many decades and only a few have turned to radical Islam.


Here in America in violation of the Bill of Rights we have allowed theology and ideology to violate the 1st Amendment rights of some Americans by allowing states to deny people the right to get married or access medical services based on biblical or religious tenets. While I believe marriage is between a man and a woman the Constitution guarantees I can't enforce it onto others. We allowed Democracy to become controlled by the ideology "Capitalism" and free markets which have not been in the interests of our citizens or national security. We created another special class here, corporations that have the same rights that are guaranteed to individuals but who have none of the responsibilty of being citizen and answer not our nation but their shareholders! At the same our legislators who were receiving generous contributions to their re-election fund crafted laws that relaxed safeguards to protect the people, our financial systems and allowed key industries vital to rebuilding in a crisis to disappear completely. I wonder how many of the idiots in Washington, D.C. stop to realize that the parts, processes and technologies vital to our national defense are produced overseas! They allowed Corporations to obtain obscene profits and wealth by exporting labor to countries with lax labor and environmental laws to produce products of lower quality and of questionable safety to be sold here at home.

What worries me most about China is that our country and corporations gave it the might and means to pursue national policies that may not be in the best interests of democratic societies in Asia. I can't wait to see what happens as China expands and creates their own industries to support their own interests and the lesson Corporate America will learn from that!
 

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