A United States of Europe- is that possible? Would you like to see it happen?

LeBrok, there is a sort of self deprecating prophetic statement that Serbs sometimes refer to. It's that one day there will be enough of us to fit under a single plum tree. It certainly feels relevant in recent times the way Team America has seen us essentially ethnically cleansed from Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. So, yes you can point out that in 2000 years we could be something else but it's like we already are more aware of that then anyone. The thing is though, we easily could have disappeared by now long ago had our ancestors not been so strong. With that attitude we could have just given in, converted to Islam and been loyal Ottomans. Thankfully our ancestors did not give in and left us with a legacy that gives us pride and strength and that's what we should do for our future generations.

On Europe specifically, we have always had a strong sense of European identity steaming largely from our battle against the Turks. We even formed a border line against them for centuries to protect Europe. It was known as the Vojna Krajina. We have always known about the problems Islam will bring to a European society. We are almost smug now in seeing the problems western Europe is experiencing with them. So we have always had a strong sense of European identity as part of our own though today's secular Europe doesn't mean jack shit in that regard. This would only be worth it for economic reasons... Actually Reinaerts ideas appeal to me a lot though I don't see them as very likely.
 
I am all pro United States of Europe , so we could get out of USA "protectorate " and start making our own politic without any foreign " advices" , Europe loosed its own power in iner strugle in two world wars ,and Europe after II WW was divided betwen two outerEuropean lands SSSR and USA . I believe Europe deserve to regain its #1 in world . You are mistaking if you think China will show any mercy( and I dont blame them for that ) if we dont stand united before they get lot more powerfool then we are , and they will .
About Serbian languague I believe it is Slavic languague that Sarmatians took as they own so I wouldnt mind if my childs would speack English , but I would realy mind ifthey would be Chineses , and not Serbs .
Ofcours Union with high authonomy for each region . And who said that England would have to live mother quen , in my oppinion real European political sistem is monarchy and there should be monarchy in every European country
 
For interest, in his prophetic view of the future world H.G.Wells (died 1946) included the idea of an 'United States of Europe'.
 
There will never be something such a "United States of Europe". There is no common language and no common patriotic sentiment. A Frenchman will always think of himself as being a Frenchman before an European , the same can be applied to a British, etc. It's nice being a dreamer, but being honest I think Europe will never be like USA. Europe will always remain at most as a Confederation, that is pretty much like USA was before 1860, or like Switzerland nowadays. That's not bad per se, because if Europa was like USA we would end up being a superpower that cares of world hegemony more than well being of the citizens.
 
Yes, I think that divided we are simply not competitive, we are like a preistoric creature with not future. I know that Europe is very complicated politically speaking, but finally we must learn to stay united.
The new state would be something innovative and never seen before, where every region has its own language but with an overnational language like English (which is also the easiest Indo-European language) to unite us.

English may be the easiest one for a Swedish speaker, but not for a Spanish speaker. Anyways I guess it could be worse if German had to be chosen , in the end it is the most spoken language natively in Europe.
 
Oh it's so romantic, but where are to Gauls now with their language? If not few historians, we wouldn't' even know about them, right?
Even in 2 thousand years if there is a country name Serbia, Serbian language will evolve to something else that you won't be able to understand. The culture will be different, most likely religion too, even look of people will change. What will you do now? :shocked: Defend and die for things that will pass and be forgotten?!
Linear pottery anyone? Anyone? :grin:

I wouldn't poke at Serbs, they know how to stir serious sh!t. Your comment is pretty presomptuous, as you deny that some parts of Europe would prefer to keep away from standardisation and dilution into a heartless (and brainless) institution. This thread should be called "A USSR of Europe? It is possible, actually, that's what is happening...
The right to chose another path than wild capitalism and integration into a structure that leaves no place for national sensibilities should be an inalienable right. Seems like Mosc..., sorry, Brussels tends to forget that. I am just very relieved Berlin and paris do not take advantage of the crisis to push for more integration.
Goulag and Internationale, anyone? :)
 
Have to agree with Lebrok there. The old adage of united we stand, divided we fall has been historically proven time and again.

Should the whole Union fall because a kern of governments can not run their own country? In this particular case, it's more like united we fall, divided, some will stand...
 
Does anyone know were any of it will lead Cimmerianbloke? But we have already tried being a Europe at odds with centuries of war plus the two major wars in the last century that didn't achieve anything either. A little co-operation is a nice change from the past method of sword and gun.
 
Thanks Antigone, that's my answer too. Let's try something else instead of jumping to our throats as we used to.

If we think that EU future is bleak, let's remind ourselves what our parents and grandparents thought about Europe and it's future in midst of WWI or II or shortly after during heights of Cold War.
 
I am just depicting the situation, I am no warmonger. Cooperation means the rich paying for the poor. Look at Spain, Italy and Belgium. If within the same nation, we see people not ready to pay for their poorer country fellowmen, what chance do we have to see rich countries paying for the poorest. You just have to read the press to have an answer. Rise of populism, nationalism and anti-European (as an institution) feeling, bitterness at the countries and governments that lead us there. Again, as I wrote in another thread, most of the continent has been living over its means, and capitalism is not a game where everybody wins. You don't play at the casino if you are broke. I wish the situation were different, as I have two teenage kids who will have to pay for the mess our parents created (with good intentions though). You sometimes need to call a spade a spade.
 
Thanks Antigone, that's my answer too. Let's try something else instead of jumping to our throats as we used to.

If we think that EU future is bleak, let's remind ourselves what our parents and grandparents thought about Europe and it's future in midst of WWI or II or shortly after during heights of Cold War.

I think lessons of the past are forgotten too easily and school history education alone does not seem to impress on the young, just how horrific Europe was. The destruction of nations, families, homes and incomes plus malutrition and disease. All of which resulted in mass migrations to Australia, US and Canada, or for those lucky enough.

Even the uncertainty and problems in the EU today are far more preferable to the alternative.
 
Last edited:
Look at the map of Europe since the Middle-Ages. Borders have moved back and forth, Poland ceased to exist and was split between other nations, countries are born, some others do not exist anymore. It is all a normal, dynamic, almost organic process. I think the situation is normal from an historic point of view. People are afraid of change, we have to think the world has we have known it has changed and live with the new one. Mankind is a product of nature and nature favours the ones that adapt to their environment. The EU integration failed because it was not taking into account factors that could bring her down.
 
I am just depicting the situation, I am no warmonger. Cooperation means the rich paying for the poor. Look at Spain, Italy and Belgium. If within the same nation, we see people not ready to pay for their poorer country fellowmen, what chance do we have to see rich countries paying for the poorest. You just have to read the press to have an answer. Rise of populism, nationalism and anti-European (as an institution) feeling, bitterness at the countries and governments that lead us there. Again, as I wrote in another thread, most of the continent has been living over its means, and capitalism is not a game where everybody wins. You don't play at the casino if you are broke. I wish the situation were different, as I have two teenage kids who will have to pay for the mess our parents created (with good intentions though). You sometimes need to call a spade a spade.

I don't remember the exact numbers but in reality North Italy gives way more funds to South Italy than West Germany to the East. Of course North Italian nationalists would like to pay just 0 Euro to the South, but maybe also excessive amounts are counter-productive as the poor Italian regions will never feel compelled to being more productive as long as they can grab others' money. In Spain Catalan separatist always argue that in Germany the rich länder can stop contributing to the poor ones' economies beyond certain level that is fixed at federal level in terms of total GDP . They complain that in Spain there is not such limit, so let's say Andalusia needs certain amount of money to finance their healthcare system because they don't have enough , then the Spanish rich regions must contribute until the required money is fullfiled as long as those rich regions have funds left for themselves, but there is not such fixed limitation a priori.
 
Depending on what you are looking for you would prefer one instance of Europe over another. If you like our civilization to be more natural (organic?) than you are born too late. My best Europe so far exists right now, in time when we unleashed more of human potential, educated masses, gave people good life and more freedoms. Thanks to this we brought peace and cooperation between states and nations. I know the old ways (you described) worked well (at lest worked) for long thousands of years. New Europe with new way of life is certainly a phenomenon (historically speaking), untested and uncertain. Like one big experiment.
Having set that, I truly believe that today's Europe is not a coincidence, a mare fluke. I can see long chain of events that have lead us slowly to this state of affairs. It started with technology, capitalism, and renaissance about 500 years ago. Europe that we have right now is from evolutionary process, natural, therefore it is here to stay.
 
You guys have both very valid points. I am not nostalgic of the golden age of European domination over the world, I am only very critical at the poor level of management we witness in the current crisis. The EU failed to prove it could deal with problems affecting the Eurozone it created. The world economics have been working with more speed since computers have become a common management tool, but you can feel the EU is still stuck with file cabinets and typewriters. The solutions do not come flowing, they come too late and by the time they are applied, the root of the problem has evolved and the answer is no more adapted to the problem. My point is that if the EU wants to be effective, the whole structure has to be revamped and boosted to be able to deal with issues in real time. I am also very critical of the lack of transparency when it comes to the billions they seem to find over a cup of coffee after lunch. The history of the Vatican shows us that if you do not live with your time, you are condemned to be relegated to the backseat.
Franco, the north-south fracture is something Europe overlooks. In Italy, the south is the source of the mafia, which existed well before the Italian state and was itself a form of local government which people trusted because it was local people looking after local solutions for local problems. Industrialising the south or expecting the south to get the level of development Torino or Milano has is not realistic. Culture has a lot to do, as in the south, governments are not trusted and cheating the government is considered fair.The same in Spain: Jaén or Málaga will never have the same economic potential as Catalonia, and on top of that come the linguistic and independence considerations. These matters should stay within the national government's responsabilities. Transfer of money and competences are only worth if the beneficiaries use it to develop their skills in order to be able to be autarcic and stop depending on other regions to face their bills. All the EU does at the moment is giving away checks with little control, the most blatant cases were Bulgaria and Romania, where payments were suspended because of lack of progress in the reforms. The big mistake was giving the check in the first place... The modern-day map needs to be rethought and adapted to the economic reality. It is the only way to keep the Union standing. Another revamp can be done in a few years to get weaker members back into it or allowing them more help.
 
I am only very critical at the poor level of management we witness in the current crisis. The EU failed to prove it could deal with problems affecting the Eurozone it created.

I agree with much of what you say and the EU is in need of an overhaul, it has become rather like the Greek government with too much beaurocratic dead wood which also drains resources. But as much as I hate the thought of defending any government or politician I do think you are being a little unfair with this section.

This crisis is far from over, and it is still too early to say with any certainty whether the solutions have failed or worked. The EU is still a relatively new concept plus the idea has never been tried before so I don't think anyone could have predicted at it's conception that this crisis would even happen, little on having ready made solutions for something unseen.

Unchartered waters and all that, although it seems more like the blind leading the blind at the moment but all we can do is work and hope for the best. We've no other choice.
 
I agree Cimmerianbloke, politicians and bureaucrats are generally incompetent and lack responsibility. I'm pretty sure European union will evolve with time into something that will work much better. Today's crisis works as evolutionary forcing, adjustment. There is no way to predict now how the union will look in 100 years. Some form of federal government is needed, overseeing regulations for trade, disputes, finances and maybe military. I believe that instead of nations we'll see only smaller regional local governments, catering to differences or special character of regions, in industry, agriculture, language, schooling, tax collection.
 
Crises happen all the time, Antigone, with or without virulence. The pressure of the markets has always been there, but the Eurozone was originally thought as a market space, not a political entity. There was no safety net, no european project for a pan-European bank that woud manage the assets, and scan the member candidates. When the crisis hit in 2008, all that could do was to raise money to bail out banks in trouble, with no hard guarantee in returns. In Ireland, people were losing their houses but the bankers responsible for the chaos got to keep their bonuses, and the developpers that owe the banks billions transferred their assets to their spouse, perfectly legally, in order to avoid having their private patrimony seized. It is all common knowledge and the EU has still not tried to tackle the problem. As for being in unchartered waters, I doubt it seriously. Reading the specialised press gives you a good idea of what is coming next. Anyway, with no one in the mood for revolution, we'll have to wait and see, praying to still have something left at the end of the ordeal.
 
Why not? The nationalisms of the narrow minded in the 19th and 20th century had brought us nothing but misery... namely war, genocides and an excuse to be unreasonable chauvinistic about something stupid - like the country you live in. Quite frankly being half-German /half-Dutch I don't understand why some people get scared to loose their national systems. As if this defines what you are. Being European is not something fictional in my opinion, for me personal it is a reality.
 
Last edited:

This thread has been viewed 67542 times.

Back
Top