Dacian Language

[LeBrok]

Also in Polish, Cizemki

 

[LeBrok]

nope taranis my intencion is not the origin of the name the pronounce of -au or -av,
so plz try to unserstand what i am talking about

Many slavic words in polish end with au. It is spelled ał, in english it sounds like aw, very close to au. In spoken language indistinguishable.

 

[Dagne]

But Dacian words (like the Baltic ones) - toponymes, hydronimes, names would never end in -au. Nor in -av like in slavic languages

 

[how yes no 2]

that -esti we found in many areas of thracians and greeks could be the word Nest ->nestia Greek Estia. the Homeric Nostoς

it was a joke, but it is theoretically possible (which is quite different from likely) that -esti suffix was used for settlements of proto-Estonians...

and no it could not be word -nestia because if it was than it would still be -nestia
first letters of words that have meanings are not easily lost in coin words they show up in......
obviously that has some reasonable likelihood to happen only in case of loan coin words - that is when the composed words are not understood, which is not the case for -nestia...

on other hand ending -esti is very likely the same as serbian -ište as in place names such as Trgovište (trg = market), Seliište (selti = move), Plandište (plandovati = stg. like taking rest, having vacation, laze), Gradiište(graditi = to build), Žitište (žito = wheat)

Also in Polish, Cizemki

but to Polish it could not have entered from Turkish....

Many slavic words in polish end with au. It is spelled ał, in english it sounds like aw, very close to au. In spoken language indistinguishable.

that is what I tried to explain with Don-au vs. dun-av
it is absolutely the same suffix....
just different languages have different way of writing...
-v in Serbia would be -w or -u in German style writing...

But Dacian words (like the Baltic ones) - toponymes, hydronimes, names would never end in -au. Nor in -av like in slavic languages

no, they end in -dava
which is also built-in in Slavic word tvrdjava (fortress) = tvrd + dava (strong, solid + dava)
"dava" clearly meant something like fortified settlement (=town)....

however, in Lithuanian fortress = tvirtovė
which means Dacian -dava would in the Lithuanian version of this coin word map to -ove (tvrd -> tvirt)

thus, there is Slavic loan from Dacian, and Baltic loan from Slavic.... which contradicts idea that Dacians were Baltic... in fact it does place Slavic closer to Dacians than Baltic which further implies Slavic living north of Dacians and Baltic north of Slavic which is in accordance with known history.... this however doesnot prove that proto-slavs didnot also live e.g. south of Dacians...


I see no counterpart of word "dava" in any of existing languages...in fact closest match would be "town"... so it could have been about Germanic tribe....
there could be relation between tribal names
Dacians and Deutch/Dutch
Getea and Goths
shared tribal identity doesnot necesserily imply that in historic times those people spoke same language....but it may pop up in genetics studies...

 

[LeBrok]

but to Polish it could not have entered from Turkish....



.

Any reason why not?

 

[zanipolo]

on other hand ending -esti is very likely the same as serbian -ište as in place names such as Trgovište (trg = market), Seliište (selti = move), Plandište (plandovati = stg. like taking rest, having vacation, laze), Gradiište(graditi = to build), Žitište (žito = wheat)



.

On the other hand, ending - este are illyrian words such as Tergeste = Market, Ateste = nests, seste = mannerism

 

[iapetoc]

On the other hand, ending - este are illyrian words such as Tergeste = Market, Ateste = nests, seste = mannerism

correct the ones you call illyrians ancient Greek call Keltos Celtus

But Dacian words (like the Baltic ones) - toponymes, hydronimes, names would never end in -au. Nor in -av like in slavic languages

then?

either -au ether -av is more a dialect or semi-language difference start,
in fact the connection of romanian with the rest slavic around has the smallest %,
that means that either thracians either Dacian which from ancient we call nation but different speaking could be the spark of of a split, or had already split.

Also in Polish, Cizemki

Many slavic words in polish end with au. It is spelled ał, in english it sounds like aw, very close to au. In spoken language indistinguishable.

indeed I mention Warsaw, and an alternate Varsava

 

[Dagne]

no, they end in -dava
which is also built-in in Slavic word tvrdjava (fortress) = tvrd + dava (strong, solid + dava)
"dava" clearly meant something like fortified settlement (=town)....

however, in Lithuanian fortress = tvirtovė
which means Dacian -dava would in the Lithuanian version of this coin word map to -ove (tvrd -> tvirt)

thus, there is Slavic loan from Dacian, and Baltic loan from Slavic.... which contradicts idea that Dacians were Baltic... in fact it does place Slavic closer to Dacians than Baltic which further implies Slavic living north of Dacians and Baltic north of Slavic which is in accordance with known history.... this however doesnot prove that proto-slavs didnot also live e.g. south of Dacians...


I see no counterpart of word "dava" in any of existing languages...in fact closest match would be "town"... so it could have been about Germanic tribe....
there could be relation between tribal names
Dacians and Deutch/Dutch
Getea and Goths
shared tribal identity doesnot necesserily imply that in historic times those people spoke same language....but it may pop up in genetics studies...

Well, didn’t I mention before that the ending -dava is also used in Lithuanian place names? Close to Kaunas where I lived in my childhood there was a village named Vaišvydava and also Vaišvydavos giria (forest) which, as you may notice is exactly the same as it might have sounded in Dacian.

Perhaps the ending -dava is not the most popular one in Lithuanian, there are many other types of endings, among them - duva, -lava ... And I don't think these place names are taken from Slavic languages. So here we go again, Lithuanian language has exactly the same suffixes as Dacian and generally behaves as the Lithuanian language.

And regarding the meaning of dava (fortress) - hmm, perhaps it is just a popular suffix in Dacian. Does it have to have a meaning?

 

[Dagne]

I’ll explain more why there might not be any meaning in the –dava. It could just be a suffix –dav- + an ending –a.

The logic for making compound nouns is different:

For Germanic languages it is quite common to have a conjunction of two words Perter+son=Peterson, where both words have meanings.

While in inflective languages true compound are rare, and nouns have only one meaningful word and the rest is just a suffix and an ending:

Petraitis Petr(stem)+ait (suffix) +is (ending). There is no meaning in the suffix –ait-, or the ending-is.

(The linguist however, worked out that the suffix –ait- somehow derives from son of. So in essence Petraitis is the same as Peterson.)

The same might be true about toponymes –
They can be combined of two stems Konings+berg or just Karaliaučius, where the meaning is only in Karal- (stem from karalius, king) + (suffix) –iauč- + (ending) -ius.

The place names in Lithuanian are usually made of one stem word and a suffix with an ending. –dava also is suffix + ending, with not apparent meaning like “fortress” in it.

Also regarding the meaning fortress – we have a word pilis, and placenames Pilėnai, Piliuona, Pilaitė, etc. but there is another connections polis – pilis ...

 

[how yes no 2]

Well, didn’t I mention before that the ending -dava is also used in Lithuanian place names? Close to Kaunas where I lived in my childhood there was a village named Vaišvydava and also Vaišvydavos giria (forest) which, as you may notice is exactly the same as it might have sounded in Dacian.

-dava is Dacian suffix
iapetoc speaks of -au in order to make Dacian Germanic, but it is not -au but -dava

And I don't think these place names are taken from Slavic languages.

no one said that.... this was about Slavic coinword "tvrđava"(fortress) = tvrd + dava (strong, solid + dava)
that is in Lithuanian "tvirtovė" without clear -dava ending of Dacians
which clearly shows that that particular word has travelled from Dacian to Slavic to Baltic...

Perhaps the ending -dava is not the most popular one in Lithuanian, there are many other types of endings, among them - duva, -lava ...

-duva is same ending as -dava

And I don't think these place names are taken from Slavic languages. So here we go again, Lithuanian language has exactly the same suffixes as Dacian and generally behaves as the Lithuanian language.

sure, it does...
suffixes also originally had meaning....
e.g. in previous post I did list few placenames in Serbia that have ending on-ište (similar to Thracian -esti and Illyrian -este)

while there is no direct meaning of the suffix -ište it is always designating a location... besides place names it is also used in many coin word nouns (e.g. zemljište = plot, terrain (zemlja = ground), čistilište = cleaning place( čistiti = to clean), gradilište (graditi = to build)....

in fact the suffix may come from same PIE word that gave birth to Stadt in German....

so, suffixes have indirect meaning...

And regarding the meaning of dava (fortress) - hmm, perhaps it is just a popular suffix in Dacian. Does it have to have a meaning?

yes...
it has to have had a meaning originally...

For Germanic languages it is quite common to have a conjunction of two words Perter+son=Peterson, where both words have meanings.

While in inflective languages true compound are rare, and nouns have only one meaningful word and the rest is just a suffix and an ending:

Petraitis Petr(stem)+ait (suffix) +is (ending). There is no meaning in the suffix –ait-, or the ending-is.

(The linguist however, worked out that the suffix –ait- somehow derives from son of. So in essence Petraitis is the same as Peterson.)

not just Germanic languages, most of languages do have coin words....

-ait is same origin as -ić in Serbia...
that is suffix used in demunitives...
and meaning "son of" is clear because what is a son than little father?


it is wide spread demunitive actually... e.g. in netherlands it is -(e)tje but in Friiesland in Netherlands this demunitive suffix exist also as -lyts

 

[how yes no 2]

On the other hand, ending - este are illyrian words such as Tergeste = Market, Ateste = nests, seste = mannerism

that implies that Illyrian is somewhat incorporated in (south?) Slavic, because this is very often used suffix in nouns and is used to designate location....
if it was passed via placenames from Illyrians than it wouldnot exist as widely used suffix that designates location.... (read my previous post on this topic)

 

[how yes no 2]

Any reason why not?

only historic contact with Turkey is on that map you show of Poland-Lithuania... which was Balto-Slavic state in which Slavic Poles, Ukrainians and Belarus went under name of Poland... Poles just mean field people.. so any Slavic people can accept that as tribal identity... while real tribal name of Poles is Lech/Lechia (Lyakhs in Russian primary chronicle).... in fact origin may be the same as of Lycians in Asia minor who were also known as Lukka sea peoples... but that originally could have meant mountain people...

words are imported either by conquest or trough trade...
there was no substantial trade between Otoman empire and Poland...
and Poland was never under Ottoman empire...

and if word spread in times of Poland-Lithuania coin state, it would probably exist in Lithuanian as well...

it is very possible that the word comes from Ottomans.... but it also might have been around in Balkan, east Europe and Anatolia before them as well... something to think about is when boots were invented and when Polish people have started using them.... could it be as late as Poland-Lithuania state (1569–1795)?

 

[iapetoc]

-ait is same origin as -ić in Serbia...
that is suffix used in demunitives...
and meaning "son of" is clear because what is a son than little father?


it is wide spread demunitive actually... e.g. in netherlands it is -(e)tje but in Friiesland in Netherlands this demunitive suffix exist also as -lyts

I’ll explain more why there might not be any meaning in the –dava. It could just be a suffix –dav- + an ending –a.

The logic for making compound nouns is different:

For Germanic languages it is quite common to have a conjunction of two words Perter+son=Peterson, where both words have meanings.

While in inflective languages true compound are rare, and nouns have only one meaningful word and the rest is just a suffix and an ending:

Petraitis Petr(stem)+ait (suffix) +is (ending). There is no meaning in the suffix –ait-, or the ending-is.

(The linguist however, worked out that the suffix –ait- somehow derives from son of. So in essence Petraitis is the same as Peterson.)

The same might be true about toponymes –
They can be combined of two stems Konings+berg or just Karaliaučius, where the meaning is only in Karal- (stem from karalius, king) + (suffix) –iauč- + (ending) -ius.

The place names in Lithuanian are usually made of one stem word and a suffix with an ending. –dava also is suffix + ending, with not apparent meaning like “fortress” in it.

Also regarding the meaning fortress – we have a word pilis, and placenames Pilėnai, Piliuona, Pilaitė, etc. but there is another connections polis – pilis ...

That is another IE turn

Ancient Greeks use nomitive and again Genitive-possesional
example
father name Petros
Antonios Petrou, Antonios Πετρου
means Anton who belongs to Petros (son of Petros)
if the other want to reffer to you to a third then they Petrides
So if I am introducing my self I say Antonios Petrou
But if someone speaks about me and knows my father will say Petrides (modern -της -tis)
Later that change Greeks used the degrees to express superlative and diminutive

so son of Peter becomes πετρα-κης (small peter = peter son)
compare with pelasgian or Hattians language (Hatth-con -Attika)
so that -son of far North is the minor asian -con,
I think that -akis exist in Italy (someone could help us) as -acio
so the petros Son becomes Petrarkis
Now in a non Greek world goes to Petrace
compare the Greek Petraki whith Romanian Petrace
the older -ides or -ites with akis -ace

lets compare it
name anton father Petros

Anton Petrou I introduce (rom Petrau slavic Petrof-Petrov)
Anton Petrides-dis another introduce me also Petri-otis
Lithuanian Petri-ait-is (otis- aitis)

the other case the diminutive
Anton Petrakis (πετρακης) -akis
romanian Petrace -ace

half of Cretans use the -aces -ακης and maniates the doric -akos
-akos is a satem form will be -acos hmmm acos ->son

Serbian will be Petric Antonic etc so the case of -ace -ic - ακης can show a connection

I don't know if that follows ancient thracian form or a more IE or an ancient Celtic or a greek or a balto slavic

but the connection is obvious

Simply most of reconstructed follow the Baltoslavic rules, and forget the Romanian
while the more we search the Brygian language the more we found non slavic sounds

I believe that a paraslavic sound existed in south Balkans, as also a Celtic but Baltic was above Dacia,
that means that either Dacian was -> baltic or celt or Germanic
either thracian was -> para slavic or Celtic or more near the Greco-Iranian Aryan

in fact I believe that Thracian non Baltic went North, meet the Baltic and return as Balto slavic by Cyrill
while Dacian was a Celto-Germanic sound or a balto germanic sound

 

[Taranis]

Intriguing, I think the word is a textbook example of what linguists call a "Wanderwort" (wandering word).

Albanian - Çizme
Azeri - Çəkmə
Croatian, Serbian - Čizma
Hungarian - Csizma
Polish - Cizemki
Romanian - Cizmă
Turkish - Çizme

 

[how yes no 2]

correct the ones you call illyrians ancient Greek call Keltos Celtus

hm, this is quite interesting....
can you find reference for this?

 

[Dagne]

-no one said that.... this was about Slavic coinword "tvrđava"(fortress) = tvrd + dava (strong, solid + dava)
that is in Lithuanian "tvirtovė" without clear -dava ending of Dacians
which clearly shows that that particular word has travelled from Dacian to Slavic to Baltic...

No, I don't think languages develop this way ...
The suffix -dav- is in the Lithuanian language as in Dacian and Slavic, but it comes from Proto Language level (ie, Proto Balto-Slavic). And regarding tvirtovė - it just comes with the suffix -ov-ė. In Macedonian "fortress" is tvirdina, so it comes with the suffix -in-a this time. Whereas -dava is typical for placenames, right? (tvirtovė is not a place name)

-dav- standing alone has no apparent meaning like a variety of other suffixes.

Regarding etymology of -dav- Well, I can agree with you that it originates from some meaningful word. But we don't know this original word that -dav-a got transformed from. And these three letters have no apparent meaning in either Slavic, Dacian or Baltic.

Isn't it right ? You can't give me a meaning of -dav- in Serbian, can you? The meaning is only in tvrd, isn't it? (the same in tvirt/d stem in Balto-Slavic languages)

Also, I noticed that place names in Macedonian or Serbian can be with the suffix -glav-a. (Drimiglava, Baćoglava, etc) Could -glava be related to -dava?

The somewhat misleading circumstance is that -dav-a is listed as a meaningful word in the reconstructed vacabulary of Dacian words in wiki, whereas it is, in fact, only a suffix+ending.

 

[iapetoc]

hm, this is quite interesting....
can you find reference for this?

you know many

 

[how yes no 2]

No, I don't think the language develops this way ...
The suffix -dav- is in the Lithuanian language as in Dacian and Slavic, but it comes from Proto Language level (ie, Proto Balto-Slavic).

there is no -dav(plus -a for female nouns, plus -o for neutral geneder nouns) suffix in south Slavic designating location, settlement
-dav suffix would be used to denote way in which something is...
e.g. krivudav put = road with many turns (krivo = not straight)

so, in coin "tvrđava" it is clear loan from Dacian
if Lithuanian is Dacian derived, why 'tvirtovė' in Lithuanian and not e.g. "tvirtdava"?

And regarding tvirtovė - it just comes with the suffix -ov-ė. In Macedonian "fortress" is tvirdina, so it comes with the suffix -in-a this time. Whereas -dava is typical for placenames, right? (tvirtovė is not a place name)

-din (+a for feminin, or +o for neutral gender nouns) is Celtic ending
in fact "tvrdina" is also usable in serbian, but is arhaic...

-dav- standing alone has no apparent meaning like a variety of other suffixes.

Regarding etymology of -dav- Well, I can agree with you that it originates from some meaningful word. But we don't know this original word that -dav-a got transformed from. And these three letters have no apparent meaning in either Slavic, Dacian or Baltic.

they do have apparent meaning in english - "town" is derived from same "dav" (w in english would in east Europe be written as v)

Isn't it right ? You can't give me a meaning of -dav- in Serbian, can you? The meaning is only in tvrd, isn't it? (the same in tvirt/d stem in Balto-Slavic languages)

that is why I say it is loan word from Dacian...

Also, I noticed that place names in Macedonian or Serbian can be with the suffix -glav-a. (Drimiglava, Baćoglava, etc) Could -glava be related to -dava?

The somewhat misleading circumstance is that -dav-a is listed as a meaningful word in the reconstructed vacabulary of Dacian words in wiki, whereas it is, in fact, only a suffix+ending.

I do not think that is misleading... I am pretty sure it meant town / fortified settlement

 

[how yes no 2]

you know many

I know that relation exists from mythology...
but I am not really familiar with writings of ancient Greek historians...
when I quote something it is because on internet it is easy to search through books...

 

[iapetoc]

No, I don't think the language develops this way ...
The suffix -dav- is in the Lithuanian language as in Dacian and Slavic, but it comes from Proto Language level (ie, Proto Balto-Slavic). And regarding tvirtovė - it just comes with the suffix -ov-ė. In Macedonian "fortress" is tvirdina, so it comes with the suffix -in-a this time. Whereas -dava is typical for placenames, right? (tvirtovė is not a place name)

-dav- standing alone has no apparent meaning like a variety of other suffixes.

Regarding etymology of -dav- Well, I can agree with you that it originates from some meaningful word. But we don't know this original word that -dav-a got transformed from. And these three letters have no apparent meaning in either Slavic, Dacian or Baltic.

Isn't it right ? You can't give me a meaning of -dav- in Serbian, can you? The meaning is only in tvrd, isn't it? (the same in tvirt/d stem in Balto-Slavic languages)

Also, I noticed that place names in Macedonian or Serbian can be with the suffix -glav-a. (Drimiglava, Baćoglava, etc) Could -glava be related to -dava?

The somewhat misleading circumstance is that -dav-a is listed as a meaningful word in the reconstructed vacabulary of Dacian words in wiki, whereas it is, in fact, only a suffix+ending.

what Macedonian???????????????
so you come to the Greek -Dona -ona wich means area of same things, same nation people,
Chalki-dona (chalki nation area)
or greek chiken house male Ornith-ona
or area of grapes - ampell-ona

So you still ignore the South thracian or Greek
and claim my language as slavic

IN MAKEDONIAN THE Word IS -DONA
COMPARE THE MYG-DONA PEOPLE ΜΥΓΔΟΝΕΣ A THRACIAN TRIBE
COMPARE THE MAKEDONIAN CITY CHALKI-DONA

now about glava
lets see

Kunos kephalai, Κυνος κεφαλαι known for the battle of romans with Makedonians,
in ancient Makedonian language is Kunos Kevalai κυνος κεβαλαι

in slavic is kuce glava !!!!!!

Κεφαλαι means central area
κeφαλοχωρι means the center village

there can not be a better example

Μακεδονια read it in your language


you are right
the Greek -Ona -Dona
the North -Dava
the -au
and the Hettit -awa


Nesili language

ahhiy-awa
Milay-awa
Arz-awa
Zalp -uwa

compare it with Wars-awa etc