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Thread: Celtic - Serbian parallels

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    Quote Originally Posted by dublin View Post
    yetos

    please read this book

    http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/...ski-MA1996.pdf

    you can go straight to conclusion. There were lots of ships. The available written sources talk about navel battles where Slavic fleets had hundreds of ships. The earliest shipwreck is from the 6th century. (table on page 191) The Baltic slavs had many very important ports which had been mentioned in German and Danish reports. I have to mention that this book does not contain finds from last 20 years and this is the period of increased archeological activity in the area.


    Now lets see when Vikings enter Volga river
    According to the 12th century Kievan Primary Chronicle, a group of Varangians known as the Rus' settled in Novgorod in 864, under the leadership of Rurik. Before Rurik, the Rus' might have ruled an earlier hypothetical polity. Rurik's relative Oleg conquered Kiev in 882, and established the state of Kievan Rus', which was later ruled by Ruriks descendants.[7][8] The name of the Rus' is the origin of the name Russia.
    Wiki

    you see Vikings enter much earlier to what is known as Slavic lands
    so the connection among these 2 is obvious, meaning 2 hundred years living beside or rulling class,
    Novgorod and Kiev is not clear a Slavic culture even the name rus or as attested by Greeks Ρως Roos

    Besides thread is about Serbs and Celts, not Viking and Slavs,
    surely you do not believe that vikings were Celts,
    Although I personally believe that in Scandinavia ends the 'journey' of Getae

    PS i only heard about the Puck 2 kind of ship that is after Slavic naval architecture, and not the whole kind of ships, besides the Slavic ship architecture is simmilar to Viking which for me after 2 hundred years of neighborhood it is possible an exchange of ideas.

    JUST LOOK THE MAP TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT 8TH CENTURY VIKINGS



    Even the above map is incorrect about Ucraine and Crimea
    Since Byzantine emperor Theophilos (Greek: Θεόφιλος; 813 – 20 January 842)
    is mentioning that HE SAW THE ROOS, and establish trade with them in Crimea

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    yetos


    Besides thread is about Serbs and Celts, not Viking and Slavs, surely you do not believe that vikings were Celts,
    no but i believe that celts and serbs vends venets slavs are the same people and that gaels and celts are not. i also believe that it was slavic vikings that brought a lot of serbian words to ireland, wales, scotland.

    The Lusatian culture existed in the later Bronze Age and early Iron Age (1300 BCE – 500 BCE) in most of today's Poland, parts of Czech Republic and Slovakia, parts of eastern Germany (where it is known as Lausitz, Latin: Lusatia) and parts ofUkraine. It covers the Periods Montelius III (early Lusatian culture) to V of the Northern-European chronological scheme.
    There were close contacts with the Nordic Bronze Age, and the Scandinavian influence on Pomerania and northern Poland during this period was so considerable[1] that this region is sometimes included in the Nordic Bronze Age culture.[2]Hallstatt and La Tène influences are seen particularly in ornaments (fibulae, pins) and weapons.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture


    A gord is a medieval Slavic fortified settlement, also occasionally known as a burgwall or Slavic burgwall after the German name for these sites. This Proto-Slavic word (*gordъ) for town or city, later differentiated into grad (Cyrillic: град), gard,[1][2] gorod (Cyrillic: город), etc.[3][4][5] The ancient peoples were known for building wooden fortified settlements. The reconstructed Centum-satem isogloss word for such a settlement is g'herdh, gordъ, related to the Germanic *gard and *gart (as in Stuttgart etc.).
    Similar strongholds were built during the late Bronze and early Iron Ages by the people of the Lusatian culture (ca. 1300 BC – 500 BC), and later in the 7th - 8th centuries CE in modern-day Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic and eastern Germany. These settlements were usually founded on strategic sites such as hills, riverbanks, lake islands or peninsulas.

    The helmets from the Vendel period are perhaps the most impressive grave goods from these burials.
    vendel vendish slavic celtic

    http://archeurope.com/index.php?page=vendel-helmets


    Valsgärde or Vallsgärde is a farm on the Fyris river, about three kilometres north of Gamla Uppsala, the ancient centre of the Swedish kings and of the pagan faith in Sweden.
    valsgarde vals garde (garde slavic fortified town in sweden)


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valsg%C3%A4rde


    After the Slavic migrations, the eastern area of modern Holstein was inhabited by Slavic Wagrians (Vagri) subgroup of Obotrites(Obotritae).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...eswig-Holstein




    Nordalbingia and Wagria in 8th century-9th century


    Apart from northern Holstein and Schleswig inhabited by Danes there were Nordalbingia and Wagria in respectively, Western and Easterm Holstein.
    Nordalbingia (German: Nordalbingien, i.e. land north of the Elbe river) was one of the four administrative regions of the medieval Duchy of Saxony, the others being Angria, Eastphalia, and Westphalia. Nordalbingia consisted of four districts: Dithmarschen, Holstein, Stormarn (north of the Elbe) and Hadeln (south of the Elbe).
    The Wagri, Wagiri, or Wagrians were a tribe of Polabian Slavs inhabiting Wagria, or eastern Holstein in northern Germany, from the ninth to twelfth centuries. They were a constituent tribe of the Obodrite confederacy.

    There was a legend that Swedish Vikings established Russia ( Novgorod) but it has been proven long ago by Russian historians (like Rybakov and others) to be completely false. Germanic tribe Rus never existed.


    New genetic studies by Roewer at al. 2008 confirmed that Rybakov was right. Germanic haplogroups are not present in Novogrod (there is nothing in Ukraine too). From this paper you will also learn who the Russians are and how distant the Finns are:


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...6/?tool=pubmed


    Here you can find Excel files with data for Novogrod:


    http://dna-forums.com/index.php?/top...plotypes-data/


    I1 is 2.5% (1/40) and probably Polish or Baltic, R1b1b2 is 5% (2/40) and probably Armenian or Jewish. No trace of Germanic people in Novogrod.


    Rus were excellent horse riders and warriors and were using Sarmatian Coast of arms ‘tamygas’. West Slavic tribe Wagrians is considered to be the Rus by some. Wends were ruling on Baltic Sea then and it was called Wends Sea by contemporary writers so they could come with some help for Slavic brothers. I read somewhere that Novogrod and Tver areas are very close to Poland genetically, Fst lower than 0.002, so this would make sense.


    Vikings were merchants or sea robbers and didn’t ride horses, they were fighting on foot. How could they match Slavic Sarmatian, Scythian or Wendic horse mounted warriors. Wends defeated Saxons on many occasions and here is link where you can learn what Anglo-Saxons were doing with Vikings when they caught some:
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ution-pit.html


    int the book i asked you to read


    http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/...ski-MA1996.pdf


    there is a mention of slavic vikings using transporting horses and usig cavalery in the attack on Denmark.


    so there are your varangians and rus.

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    Looks like three headed deities were not that seldom in Europe.
    Here is Celtic god Lugus
    http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingLi...arianLugii.htm

    Greek, Trivia-Hekate
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deity

    Second century BCE from Ireland
    This is a three-faced head from Corleck, Co. Cavan in Ireland, just over 12 inches in height.
    Triplism is an extremely common theme in ancient Celtic religion, where triple goddesses and gods are commonplace.
    A number of sculptures of native triple-headed or triple-faced Celtic gods were produced in Roman Gaul, but this is the only work of this kind found in Ireland.
    http://whitefiles.org/b2_h/1_celtic_...m3/3_vsart.htm
    Slavic Vikings must have gotten there really early. :))
    Also looks like Julius Cesar was fighting Slavs in Gaul, or more precisely Serbs.

    Norse horn shows 3 headed god from 5th century BC.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horns_of_Gallehus

    It just dawn on me: Who would call an important god "Triglav"? Looks like Slavs didn't know the name of this Celtic or Germanic god found in West Pomerania, so they called it Triglav. Same might have happened wherever Slavs found Celtic 3 headed statues, like in Balkans.
    Honestly, what would you call a three headed statue that you would have found? How would you describe it to others?
    God Swiatowit, is function descriptive, 4 faced Swiatowid looks in 4 directions to see the whole world (swiato-world, wid-see). It is not Fourglav or something in this regard.
    But Triglav, what did it do? Slavs didn't know, that's why it is just Triglav!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by dublin View Post
    keegah

    There is no such a thing as Celtic language. The term “Celtic” languages is used for Gaelic languages because people from UK and Ireland were the first people identified as “Celtic” so the logic was their languages must be “Celtic” languages.
    Hrm... no. The term "Celtic" is derived from the term "Keltoi", which was used by the ancient Greeks to refer to a group of continental European tribes with a common culture. The Romans went on to use it to refer to the Gauls, and eventually the Celtiberians. The term wasn't originally used to refer specifically to Insular Celts - that is, the Brythons and, yes, the Gaels.

    No problem with that. Gaelic languages have some Serbian words in them but Serbian is not a Gaelic language. As to how and when did these words came into Gaelic languages, this is one of the things that i am trying to discovere. Slavic vykings could be one of the posibilities.
    As multiple people have told you, there being words cognate to each other in Gaelic and Serbian could easily be explained by them having a common ancestor in the original Indo-European language. I'm not knowledgeable enough about the Slavs to say whether or not there was any cultural or linguistic exchange between those peoples and the Gaels, but it's irrelevant. You can find cognates in several different languages that have no close relationship to each other.

    As I said above, no “Celtic” language was ever found. So we could not have compared the Gaelic languages with it and concluded that Gaelic languages were similar to it and were therefore “Celtic” languages. What happened was the opposite. We decided to call today’s inhabitants of the brittish isles Celts and then we built the celtic language from the indigenous languages from the brittish isles which happen to be Gaelic languages.
    Here's the problem - you build your arguments off of a statement that you have yet to prove, and goes against years upon years of established research. "No Celtic language has ever been found"? They don't need to be found, they're still alive. The living Celtic languages include Irish, Scottish (Gaelic), Manx, Welsh, Cornish, and Breton. The last three are Brythonic Celtic languages, the first three are Goidelic Celtic languages. Since those six languages are still living today, there have been plenty of opportunities to compare and find similarities between them, contrary to what you say. As a result, after years of linguistic research, we know that there exist common qualities between, say, Irish and Welsh, that differentiate them from other Indo-European languages such as, say, Serbian. You have yet to successfully explain why all of that research should be ignored.

    There a lots of reasons and one of them is that Irish themselves never call themselves Celts or Valahi.
    Like I explained before, the term "Celt" or "Keltoi" was a Greek term. It may have been derived from the name a Continental Celtic tribe called itself, but we don't know - and it is totally irrelevant. The Picts never would have called themselves Picts either, that was simply a Latin term the Romans used to describe the Celtic peoples living in Northern Scotland, who according to the Romans were a people distinct from the other Brythonic Celts down South. We do not know the name the Picts used to describe themselves - so we just use the already established term. By your logic, because we know they never would have called themselves Picts - and we have no name for them other than Picts - those people never existed.

    Nothing about Celts is easy.
    No, there are few things about Celts that are easy. But some things are. The fact of their historical existence is one.

    Here you are using circular logic. As I said above, no “Celtic” language was ever found. So we could not have compared the Gaelic languages with it and concluded that Gaelic languages were similar to it and were therefore “Celtic” languages. What happened was the opposite. We decided to call today’s inhabitants of the brittish isles Celts and then we built the celtic language from the indigenous languages from the brittish isles which happen to be Gaelic languages. And now you are using this made up language to define what Celts were. Don’t you see the problem with this?
    Repeating to yourself that no Celtic languages have ever been found will not make it true. You're getting hung up on terminology, when the terminology is just for convenience's sake. We could call the Celts anything we wanted to call them. As long as the term was unique to those people and we were consistent, it would still be a perfectly valid term. Do me a favor. Before you make any more arguments that the Gaels are not Celts - or, even better, that the Celts are an imaginary people, and that the existence of a distinct Celtic branch of the Indo-European language family is a total fabrication, prove it. Read up on the Celtic languages, read up on Welsh and Scottish and Irish, and then present a cogent and well-documented argument on why the Celtic languages are not real. You're going against years of research here, so make sure you're thorough.

    There is a debate who the la tene people were. Again the objects from la tene culture did not have mark “made by Celts”. We decided to call them Celtic. Funnily enough, very little of la tene type artifacts has ever been found in brittish isles. You would expect a cultural continuation between the central Europe and the brittish isles but it does not exist. So you can not say that the Gaels are continuing the la tene culture and that because of this they are Celts.
    Again with the terminology. The tenets of La Tène artwork - spirals and interlace - are seen everywhere in historical Irish artwork. When you merge La Tène artwork with ancient Germanic artwork, reflecting Anglo-Saxon influence, it creates what we now call the Celtic art style.

    An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof. It isn't enough to keep saying that Celtic languages have never been discovered, when so much research says otherwise. Prove it.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    You have it backward Dublin. It was like this:
    We all know that there was a big ship building industry in Ireland by 10th century, or earlier. It means that Celts learned from Vikings how to build ships by that time. By 10 century, at the peak of their power, they invaded Baltic Coast and Started their communities.
    It very simply explains why their 3 faced god, Slavs called just Triglav, showed up in the slavic coastal area. Also it explains why similar ships were found in Pomerania and Ireland. When we have so much evidence, we can conclude that Volinians and west Pomeranian spoke Celtic/Irish language till probably 14th century.
    Nobody had heard Volinians speaking Slavic or Germanic tongue, there is no record of it, therefore in lights of other artifacts, it is easy to conclude that they spoke Celtic-Irish language. If some ancient historians said it was Wendic or Slavic they, easily confused them as such, because they didn't speak celtic or slavic. As you very well know they are the same!
    As you know Dublin, Slavic same as Celtic was only assumed and reconstructed as a mother language of modern varieties, right?
    Nobody speaks Slavic, there is Serb, Bulgarian, Polish, Russian but there is no Slavic language. All written, supposedly slavic records, are not slavic. First writings were in Bulgarian, Moravian, Serb, Czech, Polish and Russian. Again, there are no records in Slavic! So, how can we say that it existed?

    We have Greek and Roman records about Celtus or Keltoi roaming around Europe from 500 BC. Thousands of Celtic experts who analyzed Celtic language and dialects, for last 200 years, concluded this:
    Knowledge of Gaulish derives form a number of sources: the few Gaulish loanwords in French; Gaulish words, personal and tribal names, and toponyms, in Greek and Latin sources; and most importantly, the hundreds of Gaulish inscriptions. Many inscriptions consist of only a few words (often names) in rote phrases, and many are fragmentary.[4][5] They provide us with some evidence for morphology and better evidence for personal and mythological names. Occasionally, marked surface clausal configurations provide some evidence of a more formal, or poetic, register.
    The earliest Continental Celtic inscriptions, dating to as early as the 6th century BC, are in Lepontic, found in Cisalpine Gaul, and were written in a form of the Old Italic alphabet. Inscriptions in the Greek alphabet dating from the 3rd century BC to the 1st century AD have been found mainly in the Rhône delta, while later inscriptions dating to Roman Gaul are mostly in the Latin alphabet and were found principally in central France.
    Gaulish is a P-Celtic language, though some inscriptions (e.g. the Coligny Calendar) potentially show Q-Celtic characteristics (however, this is a matter of debate among Celticists). Gaulish has a very close relationship to Insular Celtic (Goidelic and Brythonic), and many forms are identical in the two[citation needed]. Epigraphical remains have been uncovered across all of what used to be Roman Gaul, which covered modern France, as well as parts of Switzerland, Italy, Germany, and Belgium.[1]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaulish_language

    On the other hand we have amateur historian and linguist Dublin claiming that Celts didn't exist, they were just Serbs! On bases of Triglav (popular in whole Europe), viking like ships used by Odobrites, few IE similarities of slavic to celtic, word Dublin, and a big dose of Slavic/Serb nationalistic feelings!

    Please dude, do you realize how ridiculous your position is!!!


    Let me point you to simple logic:
    Romans fought and traded with Gauls and other celtus for few hundred years. They captured each other as slaves, they had many translators and political contacts, etc, etc. So, during this long time including Julius Cesar campaign, nobody from Celts made the record straight and said to Romans: "Actually, we are not Celts, we are Serbs, we are Slavs"?

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    valsgarde vals garde (garde slavic fortified town in sweden)
    This is a prime example how confusing the terminology or rather classification is for you.
    Gherdh - Indo-European
    Gard, Garde - Germanic
    Gord, Grod, Gorod - Slavic
    Now, if you care, you can edit your post. Unless you claim that germanic as celtic doesn't exist.

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    @dublin

    You need to read - Making of the Slavs by Florin Curta , a recent book

    I have a question , what where then the people whose tribes departed east germany and poland and invaded, the balkans, italy, austria, france, spain, portugal and north Africa.
    I am talking about the goths, burgundians, lombards, rugii, heruli, vandals, gepids etc etc etc ..........

    below is a small sample of the book
    http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/samples/cam031/00052915.pdf


    counter arguement for the above
    http://www.unibuc.ro/uploads_en/2953...ginalia_EN.pdf

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    lebrok and others

    thanks for the links. i will respond after i read it all.

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    lebrok

    romans fought and traded with Gauls and other celtus for few hundred years. They captured each other as slaves, they had many translators and political contacts, etc, etc. So, during this long time including Julius Cesar campaign, nobody from Celts made the record straight and said to Romans: "Actually, we are not Celts, we are Serbs, we are Slavs"?
    Slavs were never a nation. They are a race. They never did and they still don’t call themselves Slavs. In the past they called themselves by their tribal (family, clan) name. Today they call themselves Polish, Serbs, Croats which is a teritorial name, but within the countries they still use tribal regional and clan names (at least in the Balkans)... Other peoples called Slavs many different names. Sometimes they used their tribal name, sometimes their territorial name, sometimes they called them Slavs and sometimes they called them Thracians and Celts.
    Look at Germans. Serbs call them Nemci, French call them alemani, and they call themselves Deutsch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dublin View Post
    lebrok



    Slavs were never a nation. They are a race. They never did and they still don’t call themselves Slavs. In the past they called themselves by their tribal (family, clan) name. Today they call themselves Polish, Serbs, Croats which is a teritorial name, but within the countries they still use tribal regional and clan names (at least in the Balkans)... Other peoples called Slavs many different names. Sometimes they used their tribal name, sometimes their territorial name, sometimes they called them Slavs and sometimes they called them Thracians and Celts.
    Look at Germans. Serbs call them Nemci, French call them alemani, and they call themselves Deutsch.
    You're going against your own logic here. Earlier you attempted to use the fact that the Gaels never called themselves Celts to defend your belief that the Gaels weren't Celts. However, here you try to defend your arguments by claiming that the Slavs never called themselves Slavs - yet you don't seem to be questioning their existence, which is what your earlier line of reasoning would suggest. If the Gaels never called themselves Celts, and therefore were not Celts, then surely that must mean that the Poles, Serbs and Croats were not Slavs either, since they never referred to themselves by that name?

    You must be able to see how warped your logic is.

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    dublin,
    the link between Slavs and Vikings that you suggest doesnot seem to have any proof or sound indication behind it...
    since this is the thread about Serbian-Celtic parallels with focus on linguistic issues...I would kindly ask you to stop writing here zillion assumptions that are supposed to prove that Vikings were Slavs...

    claim that Gaelic languages/people are not same as Celtic is on other hand interesting...
    how do you comment Greek mythology in which Illyrius, Celtus and Galas are brothers.....clearly there must have been a reason why Greek mythology creates persons with names same as 3 nearby nations and link them in same group....
    would it according to you mean that those 3 nations were same genetic stock, same language speakers, or perhaps allies?

    assuming that Celtic is not identical with Gaelic, but related in some other way (language, culture, being allies, whatever)
    to which of those would you map R1b-L21?
    note that there is none of it in Galatia in Asia minor nor in Galicia in Ukraine... but otherwise fairly well covers existing languages that are considered Celtic and that you consider Gaelic...





    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages


    and what about tribe Gallaeci resulting in area name Galicia in Spain and note the nearby (but not the same) tribe Galli


    note that R1b-L21 covers in Celtic Spain most dominantly yhe area of Galli and Gallaeci, and is much weaker but still existing in areas of Celtici and Celtiberi...would that be a genetic argument for claims that nations today called Celtic are in fact Gaelic and that Celtic people were some other... perhaps I2a1 in west Europe and north Africa (where Celts were also recorded and where no other european haplogroups are really wide spread) and I2a2 in east Europe






    than again, if you look at Galatia in Asia minor and Galicia in Ukraine what haplogroups can you map to those areas?




    the most fitting haplogroup to cover both Galicia in Ukraine and Galatia in Asia minor seems to be I2a




    however, more closer look shows that in Spain I2a1 actually maps to pre-Celtic Iberians (and Turdetanians) and not to Celtic people

    Iberian could it be derived from same I2a tribe name as Serbian, Sardinian, Kurds, Scordisci/Serdi, Sherdana...
    not really...
    but among Iberians are Sordones
    same as in Caucasian Iberia one finds Serboi...

    in Iberian area there is even today circular dance with people holding hands.... alike to the one as in Serb related countries and in Kurds
    it is called Sardana
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana

    Sardana is originally from Emporda region in northeast corner of Catalonia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empordà_(DO)

    which is in fact where tribe Sordones lived on map above...
    now could Sardinians in fact origin from Sordones?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Et...ia_200_BCE.PNG


    curious on picture above is also pre-Celtic residual...
    it does match E1b...
    note the name Turdetani/Turduli as opposed to Balkan core of E1b being Dardania... isn't this the same tribal name....

    look that in Iberian part (northeast of Turdetani) there is also somewhat elevated E1b...isn't this same map as Serbia being north of Albanians and having I2a with somewhat elevated E1b?
    isn't the same pattern seen in Caucasus Iberia (where also Serboi were recorded) being north of Caucasian Albania?





    so who are Celtici and Celtiberi in Spain?

    note also expected overall Celtic spread pattern...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_tribes

    it could be J2 perhaps (mixed with some R1b-L21)... it does match pretty good locations of Celtici and Celtiberi in Spain...J2 is also found in north Africa, has strong hotspot exactly in Galatia in Asia minor, is fairly strong in Galia (France), in Galicia in Ukraine.... but not so much in R1b-L21 Goidelic areas .,, nothe also that J2 would not be Celtic only... e.g. in Europe Italy, Greece, Albania would be completely independent spread from Asia minor... also in south most Spain it has to do with Phoenicians... it should be looked in subclades... but overall it is good candidate for Celtic...




    alternatively, Celtic marker would be R1b-U152.. that i tend to link to Germanic people...
    I see its hotspot in Asia minor as Phrygia not as Galatia and related to germanic tribes such as Franks (called 'Fruzi' (Frugians in medieval Serbian) and its hotspot in north Italy as settlements of Germanic people - e.g. Goths in 4th to 6th century...

    but it can also be Celtic...
    in fact, Roman historians were suggesting that Germans is name that means 'seed' - original Celts..
    though I would expect elevated levels in Celtic parts of Spain but it seems rather flat in whole Spain which would better be explained with Visigoths...


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    to Dublin
    claim that Gaelic languages/people are not same as Celtic is on other hand interesting...
    how do you comment Greek mythology in which Illyrius, Celtus and Galas are brothers.....clearly there must have been a reason why Greek mythology creates persons with names same as 3 nearby nations and link them in same group....
    would it according to you mean that those 3 nations were same genetic stock, same language speakers, or perhaps allies?

    assuming that Celtic is not identical with Gaelic, but related in some other way (language, culture, being allies, whatever)
    to which of those would you map R1b-L21?
    note that there is none of it in Galatia in Asia minor nor in Galicia in Ukraine... but otherwise fairly well covers existing languages that are considered Celtic and that you consider Gaelic...





    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages


    and what about tribe Gallaeci resulting in area name Galicia in Spain and note the nearby (but not the same) tribe Galli


    note that R1b-L21 covers in Celtic Spain most dominantly yhe area of Galli and Gallaeci, and is much weaker but still existing in areas of Celtici and Celtiberi...would that be a genetic argument for claims that nations today called Celtic are in fact Gaelic and that Celtic people were some other... perhaps I2a1 in west Europe and north Africa (where Celts were also recorded and where no other european haplogroups are really wide spread) and I2a2 in east Europe






    than again, if you look at Galatia in Asia minor and Galicia in Ukraine what haplogroups can you map to those areas?




    the most fitting haplogroup to cover both Galicia in Ukraine and Galatia in Asia minor seems to be I2a




    however, more closer look shows that in Spain I2a1 actually maps to pre-Celtic Iberians (and Turdetanians) and not to Celtic people

    Iberian could it be derived from same I2a tribe name as Serbian, Sardinian...
    what if first it was Siberian?

    in Iberian area there is even today circular dance with people holding hands.... alike to the one as in Serb related countries and in Kurds
    it is called Sardana
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Et...ia_200_BCE.PNG


    curious on picture above is also pre-Celtic residual...
    it does match E1b...
    note the name Turdetani/Turduli as opposed to Balkan core of E1b being Dardania... isn't this the same tribal name....

    look that in Iberian part there is also somewhat elevated E1b...isn't this same map as Serbia being north of Albanians and having I2a with elevated E1b?
    isn't the same pattern seen in Caucasus Iberia where Serboi were recorded north of Albania?


    [/QUOTE]

    some remarks:
    gaelic and brittonic and gaulish and celtiberish and other classified 'celtic'languages are very too close one to together to be of different previous stock - sure enough the rupture between gaelic and others celtic languages COULD (it's not sure) be old enough, but no serious linguist discuss their common basic celtic heritage -
    on an other hand, the R1b-U152 so common in Gaul territories and in Cisalpine Gaul is very close genetically to the R1b-L21, closer than to R1-U106 (pirncipally germanic spred) by instance; so build a very diffrent ancient history on these distributions of languages and HGs seams to me very hazardous or exagerated - for Illyrian, do not put too much confidence il old legends or myths: we know they have their parts of truth and their part of tale making, but we don't know the exact proportions between them: the Illyrians seam having spoken a 'satem' I-Ean - and their neighbours farther North (Pannonians, Venetians) was linguistically surely closer to italic languages according to the recent studies -
    Just my point of view

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    Omigod, language forum not genetic... :/

    @dublin: No offense, but you're just saying a bunch of nonsense (on the linguistic note, I don't care genetically). Celtic-Serbian (Serbian to say but the Celtic-Serbian cognates you say are will ALL slavic languages, so it can apply to Croatian, Montenegrin, Bosnian, Slovenian, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Slovak, Polish, Ukrainian, Belarus, Russian and whatever language I might have forgotten). And Serbia (thus slavic) language being related to Thracian is total nonsense and shows that you're living in a fairy tail (note: Linguistically cause genetically i would be surprised if there wasn't any Thracian genes in South-Slavic).

    Thracian is a Paleo-Balkanic language thus since there any relations between South-Slavic and particularly Serbian is false, unless you can prove that Slavic languages are a Paleo-Balkanic language...

    Thracian is similar to Dacian and probably Illyrian (since Illyrian is a Paleo-Balkanic language too). The only language remotely related to Thracian today is Albanian (and Romanian, but only word wise since semantically is a Latin language) since is the only surviving Balkanic language and is either Thraco-Dacian, Thraco-Illyrian or simply one of the above.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post

    some remarks:
    gaelic and brittonic and gaulish and celtiberish and other classified 'celtic'languages are very too close one to together to be of different previous stock - sure enough the rupture between gaelic and others celtic languages COULD (it's not sure) be old enough, but no serious linguist discuss their common basic celtic heritage -
    on an other hand, the R1b-U152 so common in Gaul territories and in Cisalpine Gaul is very close genetically to the R1b-L21, closer than to R1-U106 (pirncipally germanic spred) by instance; so build a very diffrent ancient history on these distributions of languages and HGs seams to me very hazardous or exagerated - for Illyrian, do not put too much confidence il old legends or myths: we know they have their parts of truth and their part of tale making, but we don't know the exact proportions between them: the Illyrians seam having spoken a 'satem' I-Ean - and their neighbours farther North (Pannonians, Venetians) was linguistically surely closer to italic languages according to the recent studies -
    Just my point of view
    illyrians are hard case.... i am undecided whether they were Eb1 or I2a or J2 people...people who claim that I2a only came to Balkan with Slavs base it on Norvedt calculations, but his model is way to strict... in recent published work the age of I2a in Serbia was estimated to be much older than his estimate...so I would not put all my bets on Nordvedt's numbers.. but it is even unclear where did Illyrians lived... were they ever living north of south Montenegro...

    if Celts would be originally J2 (and have merged with R1b-L21), than Illyrians could have been J2 as well... which would explain well myth of 3 brothers Celtus, Galas and Illyrus.....


    as for their north neighbours Pannonians and Scordisci, I tend to put them in pre-Slavic stock... especially because some of them Oserites who live on Plitvice lake complex has name whose meaning is only in Slavic languages = lake people (jezero/Ozero = lake)....

    russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs who lived along Danube in Hungary and Bulgary before Vlakhs Roman empire pushed them to north... which maps to Scordisci/Serdi and Pannonians, and among them it states Serbs, Croats and Carantines (Slovenes).....in such a scenario I tend to map Scordisci/Serdi to proto-Serbs, Croats could be Carpi (also Danube people but around black sea), and Pannonians perhaps forefathers of west Slavs (Slovenes among them).. but "ozero" is used in east Slavic languages while west Slavs and south Slavs have "jezero"..... so Pannonians could have been in fact original east Slavs...
    on other hand the R1a subclade typical for Europe (mostly for west Slavs) is ancient old in Serbia...suggesting a spread from area of Serbia to west Slavic countries... I did relate that to Pelasgians (= field people same as Poles /Poljaci = field people and same as Panonia is big plane/field, so Pannonians again field people)

    the way I see it is that west Slavs go originally from Balkans (where perhaps they were Pelasgians) to Pannonia as Europe specific R1a... there they merge with south Slavs who live originally around Danube in north Balkan as I2a

    pushed towards north by spread of Roman empire they all merge with east Slavs who are R1a Balto-Slavs ...

    than when Roman empire became to fall apart they rush into more or less their original settlement areas.... what Russian primary chronicle records is memory that was passed on orally from one generation to other... part of that collective memory is home area around Danube... hence south Slavs in fact in 6th century migrate back home.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    illyrians are hard case.... i am undecided whether they were Eb1 or I2a or J2 people...people who claim that I2a only came to Balkan with Slavs base it on Norvedt calculations, but his model is way to strict... in recent published work the age of I2a in Serbia was estimated to be much older than his estimate...so I would not put all my bets on Nordvedt's numbers.. but it is even unclear where did Illyrians lived... were they ever living north of south Montenegro...

    if Celts would be originally J2 (and have merged with R1b-L21), than Illyrians could have been J2 as well... which would explain well myth of 3 brothers Celtus, Galas and Illyrus.....


    as for their north neighbours Pannonians and Scordisci, I tend to put them in pre-Slavic stock... especially because some of them Oserites who live on Plitvice lake complex has name whose meaning is only in Slavic languages = lake people (jezero/Ozero = lake)....

    russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs who lived along Danube in Hungary and Bulgary before Vlakhs Roman empire pushed them to north... which maps to Scordisci/Serdi and Pannonians, and among them it states Serbs, Croats and Carantines (Slovenes).....in such a scenario I tend to map Scordisci/Serdi to proto-Serbs, Croats could be Carpi (also Danube people but around black sea), and Pannonians perhaps forefathers of west Slavs (Slovenes among them).. but "ozero" is used in east Slavic languages while west Slavs and south Slavs have "jezero"..... so Pannonians could have been in fact original east Slavs...
    on other hand the R1a subclade typical for Europe (mostly for west Slavs) is ancient old in Serbia...suggesting a spread from area of Serbia to west Slavic countries... I did relate that to Pelasgians (= field people same as Poles /Poljaci = field people and same as Panonia is big plane/field, so Pannonians again field people)

    the way I see it is that west Slavs go originally from Balkans (where perhaps they were Pelasgians) to Pannonia as Europe specific R1a... there they merge with south Slavs who live originally around Danube in north Balkan as I2a

    pushed towards north by spread of Roman empire they all merge with east Slavs who are R1a Balto-Slavs ...

    than when Roman empire became to fall apart they rush into more or less their original settlement areas.... what Russian primary chronicle records is memory that was passed on orally from one generation to other... part of that collective memory is home area around Danube... hence south Slavs in fact in 6th century migrate back home.....
    the more i read about Illyrians the less I call them illyrians. In other words I think they are only called (illyrians) this due to a geographical area called illyricum similar to the people being called british. People from britain, but is there a tribe called british, no, just english, scot, welsh, cornish and irish tribes/peoples.
    same for illyrians, their langauge and genetics are all different from one of the main (9 ) tribes to the other of the main tribes.

    very hard to pin them down

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    Ok let's start with the most ridiculousthing first.

    lebrok

    Youhave it backward Dublin. It was like this:
    Weall know that there was a big ship building industry in Ireland by10th century, or earlier. It means that Celts learned from Vikingshow to build ships by that time. By 10 century, at the peak of theirpower, they invaded Baltic Coast and Started their communities.
    Itvery simply explains why their 3 faced god, Slavs called justTriglav, showed up in the slavic coastal area. Also it explains whysimilar ships were found in Pomerania and Ireland. When we have somuch evidence, we can conclude that Volinians and west Pomeranianspoke Celtic/Irish language till probably 14th century.

    The southernshores of Baltic have cultural continuity from at least the 5thcentury until this very day. I say at least because I believe thatthe cultural continuity extends into antiquity.


    Most of thetoponyms and hydronyms in the area are Slavic.
    Most of thesettlement names in the area are Slavic.
    There are manywritten accounts from Franc, Irish, Danish, German, Russian, Arabicchroniclers from the 5th century onwards that say thatSlavs or Wends lived in the area.
    All the names ofall the southern Baltic kings and chieftains mentioned in thosechronicles are Slavic.
    There aredescriptions in those chronicles of great big Slavic cities andports, mighty Slavic fleets consisting of thousands of ships.
    All the templesfound in the area are Slavic.
    Today allGerman, Danish, Swedish, Russian, Polish historians agree that Slavsoccupied this territory from at least the 10th century.They also all agree


    At the samethere is absolutely no evidence that any Gael ever set foot in theBaltic region unless they were brought there as slaves. There are noGaelic toponymes or hydronymes, no Gaelic personal names or placenames.


    But there isTriglav, both in southern Baltic and UK and Ireland, and you willjust have to live with it.


    I am preparing aproper response about Triglav, and will post it when it's finished.


    As a delicacyhere is an Irish source that confirms that Slavs lived in Baltic andwere well known to the Irish. The source is the life of the st.Columban written in the 7th century and describes eventsthat happened during the saint's life. Enjoy.


    SAINTDATA:Columban, abbot and missioner, Born in Leinster (Ireland), c. 540; d.at Bobbio, Italy, 640; feast day 23 November. [*Note that, despiteJonas' assertion that Columban was also known as "Columba",he is distinct from St. Columba, founder of Iona, born in 521, d.597, and whose feast day is June 9.]


    56.

    OnceColumban though going to the land of the Wends, who are also calledSlavs, in order to illuminate their darkened minds with the light ofthe Gospel and to open the way of truth to those who had alwayswandered in error. When he proposed to make his vows, the angel ofthe Lord appeared to him in a vision, and showed him in a littlecircle the structure of the world, just as the circle of the universeis usually, drawn with a pen in a book. "You perceive," theangel said, "how much remains set apart of the whole world. Goto the right or the left where you will, that you may enjoy thefruits of your labors." Therefore Columban remained where hewas, until the way to Italy opened before him.

    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columban.asp

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    for all of those who are complaining about me writing about Slavic vikings

    I do it because the Baltic Slavs (the Slavic vikings) are crucial for unlocking the Slavic – Celtic mystery and Triglav is the key.There is a confirmed presence of the cult of Triglav in the whole ofEurope and now on the British isles and in Ireland. I will post adetailed explanation why all three headed god representations in theso called Celtic lands are representations of Triglav, and willexplain why I think this proves that Celts and Slavs are one and thesame.


    This thread should be called Gaelic –Celtic parallels or Gaelic – Slavic parallels. Celtic – Slavicparallels are something completely different.


    Here is an interesting article aboutSlavic influence in the Ancient Gaul:


    Itis common opinion between the scholars and the people that theancient gauls formed
    acompact set of Celtic tribes speaking the gaulish language or similarvarieties of the same
    one[1]. The gaulish language also called Classical Celtic hadpractically nothing in common
    withInsular Celtic; it was very close to the Italic group of tongues andhad grammatical
    formssimilar to those of the Proto-Indo-European model [1]. however, thepublication in a
    recentpast of relevant works has animated the debate about the slaviccultural and religious
    influencesand about the slavic presence in the ancient gaul. With this paper,after having
    reviewedsaid relevant works, we analyze in more details some origins of theseinfluences
    andpresence so as to introduce some more arguments and evidences intothedebate.
    http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbor...lavic_gaul.pdf

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    hyn 3

    how do you comment Greek mythology in which Illyrius, Celtus and Galas are brothers.....clearly there must have been a reason why Greek mythology creates persons with names same as 3 nearby nations and link them in same group....
    Three names for the three territorial groups of the same people, three brothers of the Slavic (call it Serbian if you want) family. no mystery here. like Serbs, Croats and Bosnian today. The same people, a lot of time fighting each other for various political and religious reasons, but still the same people. Remember there was not a Slavic state since Slavs left India, and who knows if there was even one then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dublin View Post
    Ok let's start with the most ridiculousthing first.

    lebrok



    The southernshores of Baltic have cultural continuity from at least the 5thcentury until this very day. I say at least because I believe thatthe cultural continuity extends into antiquity.


    Most of thetoponyms and hydronyms in the area are Slavic.
    Most of thesettlement names in the area are Slavic.
    There are manywritten accounts from Franc, Irish, Danish, German, Russian, Arabicchroniclers from the 5th century onwards that say thatSlavs or Wends lived in the area.
    All the names ofall the southern Baltic kings and chieftains mentioned in thosechronicles are Slavic.
    There aredescriptions in those chronicles of great big Slavic cities andports, mighty Slavic fleets consisting of thousands of ships.
    All the templesfound in the area are Slavic.
    Today allGerman, Danish, Swedish, Russian, Polish historians agree that Slavsoccupied this territory from at least the 10th century.They also all agree


    At the samethere is absolutely no evidence that any Gael ever set foot in theBaltic region unless they were brought there as slaves. There are noGaelic toponymes or hydronymes, no Gaelic personal names or placenames.


    But there isTriglav, both in southern Baltic and UK and Ireland, and you willjust have to live with it.


    I am preparing aproper response about Triglav, and will post it when it's finished.


    As a delicacyhere is an Irish source that confirms that Slavs lived in Baltic andwere well known to the Irish. The source is the life of the st.Columban written in the 7th century and describes eventsthat happened during the saint's life. Enjoy.





    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columban.asp
    Lol, I wrote my post in sarcastic way, sorry you didn't get the joke. I denied Slavic existence as you denied Celtic. I was just giving you your medicine.

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    I think enough was said on the subject. Let's close this farce.

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