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Thread: Celtic - Serbian parallels

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    nope, I do not take word "seed"...I just said that I read that ancient historians from Rome were translating it that way... I personally do not think it meant "seed"... but point of saying that was not in the meaning of the word, but in account made by those historians that it was word based on "seed"in order to identify original Celts... so, claim doesnot come from me, but is a piece of puzzle that fits nice in my theory of I2 haplogroup Cimmerians.. as it shows that German was word used to denote original Celts and Gomer was alternative name of Cimmerians....

    how difficult is it for you to understand actual meaning of few simple sentences?
    What you claim makes no sense, and nothing fits in your "nice" theory. We established before (Tacitus) that the term "Germani" was a newly-coined word. The Celts refered to themselves as "Keltoi", not "Germani". There's no link between the Celts and Cimmerians. Strabo claims that several authors in his time thought there's a link between the (Proto-Germanic?) Cimbri and the Cimmerians, but points out that he doubts this. Haplogroup I2 was already present in Western Europe in 3000 BC, about 2200 years before the Cimmerians are first mentioned. That's the end of the story. No connection.

    it is elementary logic that you seems to lack...
    you can make million examples, but that doesnot prove that there is no exception to the rule....
    The only thing that I don't understand is your intransigence.

    thanks...
    I am familiar with existence of sound correspondence laws, but I find it funny that you think it covers 100% of cases...
    that was point of my critique....
    Well, if you are familiar with it, then why don't you use it?!

    As for covering 100% of the cases. I did not make that claim, but linguists did make that claim before me, and it's been the backbone of linguistics for over a century, and basically ALL relationships that were established between languages are based, and I would say that empirical evidence suggests this is really the case. Also, when seemingly, words do not obey to sound laws, these must be conditioned by other laws. Textbook example of that is Verner's Law in the Germanic languages.

    The beautiful part is, which I have been trying to convey, is that the obedience/non-obdience to specific sound laws allows us to relatively time when a certain word enters the vocabulary of a language and when not.

    Gothic word for people is very close to Slavic one.... it can be exception or a rule you are not aware of... and there is another cognate of same word "četa" - which is also about way to denote group, but it is related to military group...
    Actually, the word is "Keta"/"Ceta" (or a variety thereof) in most other Slavic languages. Slavic Initial "K" does not correspond with Gothic "Th".

    unlike you, I never claimed to be knowledgeable in linguistics... but based on your posts about linguistic rules on some other threads e.g. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...d-Proto-Slavic I am very sure that your knowledge of it is extremely limited and superficial, and that you apply it in extremely biased way...
    I'm not applying it in any superficial way. If I am guilty of something in that thread, it is believing that a few visualizing key examples would convince peoples. And you only consider it "biased" because it does not fit in line with your world views about Slavic people dominating world history. I have done the same earlier for Celtic borrowings into Proto-Germanic, and PIE borrowings into Finnic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    many historians with archeological findings have found illyrians items from lake constance , across modern austria and east, south-east of there.
    The celtic start area was southern germany and the gemanic alps. since celtic is a superior language than what illyrian is, the celtic migration firstly took all the alps, as time went on the celtic vocabulary went in all illyric lands. Illyric and its dialects is a weak language

    Illyrian items from lake constance to modern Austria??? LOL

    nope it was a Usa item, that was manufacture in italy by chinese parts under authority of German produactions following ISo 9000

    so next thread Illyrian - Celt parallels and the God Illuwanga ?
    or illyrians are helvetian origin?


    ok Zanipolo tell the Illyrian dialects today?
    or were the illyrian language is spoken?

    let me quess slovenia? dalmatia? bosnia? montenegro? albania?

    so they are the illyrian dialects? right?

    nope Illuwanga had a small house in lake constanza to go at holidays time,

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    Illyrian items from lake constance to modern Austria??? LOL

    nope it was a Usa item, that was manufacture in italy by chinese parts under authority of German produactions following ISo 9000

    so next thread Illyrian - Celt parallels and the God Illuwanga ?
    or illyrians are helvetian origin?


    ok Zanipolo tell the Illyrian dialects today?
    or were the illyrian language is spoken?
    your stupidy is beyond belief, read strabo

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...trabo/7E*.html
    part 1

    So then, let me speak first of the Illyrian parts, which join the Ister and that part of p253the Alps which lies between Italy and Germany and begins at the lake268 which is near the country of the Vindelici, Rhaeti, and Toenii.269

    268 Lake Constance (the Bodensee), see 7.1.5.

    269 Meineke emends "Toenii" (otherwise unknown) to "Helvetii," the word one would expect here (cp. 7.1.5); but (on textual grounds) "Toygeni" (cp.7.2.2) is almost certainly the correct reading.

    And what is this USA rubbish you quote, I have been there and so, I have been to asian countries as well, so what is this infatuation with the USA you have?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    your stupidy is beyond belief, read strabo

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...trabo/7E*.html
    part 1

    So then, let me speak first of the Illyrian parts, which join the Ister and that part of p253the Alps which lies between Italy and Germany and begins at the lake268 which is near the country of the Vindelici, Rhaeti, and Toenii.269

    268 Lake Constance (the Bodensee), see 7.1.5.

    269 Meineke emends "Toenii" (otherwise unknown) to "Helvetii," the word one would expect here (cp. 7.1.5); but (on textual grounds) "Toygeni" (cp.7.2.2) is almost certainly the correct reading.

    And what is this USA rubbish you quote, I have been there and so, I have been to asian countries as well, so what is this infatuation with the USA you have?

    Illyrian items from lake constanza

    yes offcourse illyrians were in lake constanza

    better read Pliny and natural History

    probably another Albanian who does not understand the Celts the illyrians and like others is creating whatever comes to head,

    another story the Illyricum and iapyges and liburni another story the celts and another story the illyrians

    better read what you write illyrian items from lake constanza
    mean were manufacture in constanza by today albanians? who lost them in austria in their way to return back to taulanti !!!!!!!!!!!!
    wowwwwwwwwwwwwwww



    GODS

    the usa is the same rubish you write

    tell me who Arcaiologist found illyrian items in Constanza?
    and who Historian tells that?
    Zeus10?


    the ones you call Illyrians are not understand it, Liburni celtic? Norici Illyrians?

    the ones Stravo calls illyrians are after Illyricum
    pliny gives a better explanation

    besides tell him he is away far,
    Vindelici are east of Oenus (Inn) river
    and south of Raetian
    that lake is not constance

    even in the bellow map there is no lake constance



    sory but the writer probably pushed Illyricum to far

    that lake could near Hunagry or austria


    BESIDES STRABO SAIS ABOUT ILLYRICUM PARTS

    NOT ILLYRIAN NATION
    NOT ILLYRIAN ITEMS


    the myth of Ilyrian nation from slovenia to Greece is made by Albanians at Hodza times


    sory I am very nervous today
    electricity is many times cut off due to strike and all day I hear my UPS

    but plz from division or national parts parts of illyricum to created an illyrian nation to lake constance
    or illyrian items (swords tools) from constance!!!!!!!!

    I don't know I believe that is most easy that mohamet was ethiopean,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    What you claim makes no sense, and nothing fits in your "nice" theory. We established before (Tacitus) that the term "Germani" was a newly-coined word. The Celts refered to themselves as "Keltoi", not "Germani". There's no link between the Celts and Cimmerians. Strabo claims that several authors in his time thought there's a link between the (Proto-Germanic?) Cimbri and the Cimmerians, but points out that he doubts this. Haplogroup I2 was already present in Western Europe in 3000 BC, about 2200 years before the Cimmerians are first mentioned. That's the end of the story. No connection.
    actually, everything fits perfectly...
    but it is hard to explain big picture to someone who is capable to zoom only on few adjacent pixels and if he cannot map them to object patterns previously known to him than the whole picture does not exist for him......

    from http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post373691

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    "-budz" means "penis"
    compare Gaulish "Bu∂∂uton". "∂∂" here represents the so-called "Tau Gallicum", and the "dz" in Noric probably represented the same sound.
    I find it curious that already several Celtic cognjates are kind of slang in Serbian and not proper language....

    e.g. budža is in slang used for penis and for someone reach and powerful ....

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    iapetoc and zanipolo, please stick to the topic....
    this topic is not directly related to illyrians...
    if you want to mention them on this topic, you need to relate them to both Serbs and Celts...
    if you keep spamming here about Illyrians unrelated to the topic, I will report such posts and ask administrator to react...

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    Guys since all claim linguistics

    That is original celtic Gael

    Catoues caletoi
    Urit namantas anrimius
    Ro- te isarnilin -urextont,
    Au glannabi rhenus
    Ad ardus alpon,
    Tou' magisa matua
    Tou' brigas iuerilonas.
    Budinas bardon
    Clouos canenti
    Anuanon anmaruon,
    Cauaron colliton,
    Adio- biuotutas -robirtont
    Uolin cridili
    Are rilotuten atrilas.
    A ulati, mon atron,
    A brogi'm cumbrogon!
    Exs tou' uradiu uorrobirt
    Cenetlon clouision
    Cauaron caleton.
    A blatu blande bitos biuon.
    A ‚m' atriia,
    A blatu blande bitos biuon!
    A ‚m' atriia,
    Tou' mnas et genetas,
    Tigernias, tecas,
    Tou' uiroi uertamoi
    In sose cantle cingeton
    In- gutoues -beronti.
    Cante cladibu in lame
    Exsrextos canumi:


    since somes believe is connected with Serbian or Illyrian or whatever plz go ahead,
    I my shelf who know transalation it is hard.
    I just deleted 2 words

    a small part translation to archaistic

    Tou' mnas et genetas,
    Tigernias, tecas

    σου κοραι τε και γυναι (-και)
    αθιχερται, δικαιαι
    the αθιχερται in modern and koine is αθικται and means not exactly the same
    another word could be αψογαι and αρισται but the most proper is a rare Ποτνιαι

    modern greek
    οι κορες σου και οι γυναικες σου
    ευγενεις, δικαιες

    english

    your daughters and women
    Nobles fair
    Last edited by iapetoc; 26-06-11 at 04:06.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    Illyrian items from lake constanza

    yes offcourse illyrians were in lake constanza

    better read Pliny and natural History

    probably another Albanian who does not understand the Celts the illyrians and like others is creating whatever comes to head,

    another story the Illyricum and iapyges and liburni another story the celts and another story the illyrians

    better read what you write illyrian items from lake constanza
    mean were manufacture in constanza by today albanians? who lost them in austria in their way to return back to taulanti !!!!!!!!!!!!
    wowwwwwwwwwwwwwww



    GODS

    the usa is the same rubish you write

    tell me who Arcaiologist found illyrian items in Constanza?
    and who Historian tells that?
    Zeus10?


    the ones you call Illyrians are not understand it, Liburni celtic? Norici Illyrians?

    the ones Stravo calls illyrians are after Illyricum
    pliny gives a better explanation

    besides tell him he is away far,
    Vindelici are east of Oenus (Inn) river
    and south of Raetian
    that lake is not constance

    even in the bellow map there is no lake constance



    sory but the writer probably pushed Illyricum to far

    that lake could near Hunagry or austria


    BESIDES STRABO SAIS ABOUT ILLYRICUM PARTS

    NOT ILLYRIAN NATION
    NOT ILLYRIAN ITEMS


    the myth of Ilyrian nation from slovenia to Greece is made by Albanians at Hodza times


    sory I am very nervous today
    electricity is many times cut off due to strike and all day I hear my UPS

    but plz from division or national parts parts of illyricum to created an illyrian nation to lake constance
    or illyrian items (swords tools) from constance!!!!!!!!

    I don't know I believe that is most easy that mohamet was ethiopean,
    LOL, i am not albanian and I am not american. LOL

    your map is over 1000 years wrong. I stated pre-bronze age and you give me a map of ???//, You might as well used today's map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    What you claim makes no sense, and nothing fits in your "nice" theory. We established before (Tacitus) that the term "Germani" was a newly-coined word. The Celts refered to themselves as "Keltoi", not "Germani". There's no link between the Celts and Cimmerians. Strabo claims that several authors in his time thought there's a link between the (Proto-Germanic?) Cimbri and the Cimmerians, but points out that he doubts this. Haplogroup I2 was already present in Western Europe in 3000 BC, about 2200 years before the Cimmerians are first mentioned. That's the end of the story. No connection.



    The only thing that I don't understand is your intransigence.



    Well, if you are familiar with it, then why don't you use it?!

    As for covering 100% of the cases. I did not make that claim, but linguists did make that claim before me, and it's been the backbone of linguistics for over a century, and basically ALL relationships that were established between languages are based, and I would say that empirical evidence suggests this is really the case. Also, when seemingly, words do not obey to sound laws, these must be conditioned by other laws. Textbook example of that is Verner's Law in the Germanic languages.

    The beautiful part is, which I have been trying to convey, is that the obedience/non-obdience to specific sound laws allows us to relatively time when a certain word enters the vocabulary of a language and when not.



    Actually, the word is "Keta"/"Ceta" (or a variety thereof) in most other Slavic languages. Slavic Initial "K" does not correspond with Gothic "Th".



    I'm not applying it in any superficial way. If I am guilty of something in that thread, it is believing that a few visualizing key examples would convince peoples. And you only consider it "biased" because it does not fit in line with your world views about Slavic people dominating world history. I have done the same earlier for Celtic borrowings into Proto-Germanic, and PIE borrowings into Finnic.
    as part of this triangulation of languages, I still claim that there was no direct link between celtic and slavic, but links firstly between germanic and slavic due to the bastanae - sarmatian vicinity and the celtic and illyrian merging of words.
    The goths being east-germanic/nordic peoples would also have had an influence on bringing the slavic language into the balkans when they resided on the northern area of the black sea.
    There are even suggestions that some small portions of sarmatian/slavs per part of the gothic invasion army........usually the cannon-fodder

    as per
    Pokorny, supported it by claiming that the suggested connection between Lat. aes (copper) and Skr. ayas (metal) with Celtic *isarnon is wrong, because the latter is not of Celtic origin, but the long "i" of the Celtic word is best explained if we regard Illyrian as the source of the Celtic term. He claimed that this was supported by archaeological data and concluding that the Illyrian word for iron passed into Celtic when Celts first learned the use of the new metal by Illyrians (Pokorny, J. Sprachforschung, XLVI, 1914, p. 293).

    also read
    Katičić, Radoslav (1976). Ancient Languages of the Balkans, Part One.

    Benać, Alojz (1964). Symposium sur la Délimitation Territoriale et Chronologique des Illyriens à l’Epoque Préhistorique

    a Hungarian ,János Harmatta placed Illyrians in South Germany and the Alpine region. Tribes living there would have spoken Illyrian which deferred from Latin, German and Venetic. Around 1300 BC, the people of the Barrow-mound culture, the Illyrians, moved eastwards and then southwards along the Danube (the first Illyr migration) and in 750 BC the people of the Hallstatt C culture expanded toward western Hungary (the second Illyr migration) which gathered Pannonian tribes to itself.[12] 1000 BC is considered the beginning of the historical peoples we call the Illyrians.

    When we consider that slavic is a "newer" language for the balkans is when we will find the truth

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    Guys since all claim linguistics
    ...
    since somes believe is connected with Serbian or Illyrian or whatever plz go ahead,
    I my shelf who know transalation it is hard.
    I just deleted 2 words
    I will not even try because I was comparing vocabularies and I know that cognjates are not nearly close to be able to translate.....

    it is not black or white issue....
    celtic genetic origin doesnot mean speaking celtic language
    look at France....


    connected languages doesnot imply same language....
    I am talking about shared words in serbian and Celtic and possible origin of shared words... to translate text amount of shared words should be like 70%, but in this case it is few percentes at most... still many of the words seem not to be PIE which for me indicates inclusion of celtic speakers in serbian/slavic or other way around...

    in fact, I was expecting more shared words.... but thing is languages do have fast pace of changing....


    well, give original Homer's texts to average Greek person.... he will not have a clue...

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    as part of this triangulation of languages, I still claim that there was no direct link between celtic and slavic, but links firstly between germanic and slavic due to the bastanae - sarmatian vicinity and the celtic and illyrian merging of words.
    Obviously, there is no direct link between Celtic and Germanic languages. The reason is twofold: first, the Celts didn't expand far enough eastwards to encounter Proto-Slavic peoples (they obviously encountered the various Paleo-Balkan peoples, however). Secondly, by the time the Slavs actually enter areas formerly held by Celtic-speaking peoples (ie, during the Migration Period), the continental Celtic languages are completely extinct.

    Otherwise, as I mentioned before, there's clearly a significant number of borrowings from Germanic into Proto-Slavic. I'm going to revisit that in more detail in order to refine it, because I am convinced now that the borrowing actually stem from different stages of contact with Germanic languages. Most borrowings were from Gothic (or otherwise East Germanic) into Proto-Slavic, but I now suspect some borrowings might also be from Proto-Germanic instead.

    What is also clear is that the Romans had no direct contact with the early Slavs, and Latin-derived loanwords into Proto-Slavic must have also entered via mediation by other peoples.

    The goths being east-germanic/nordic peoples would also have had an influence on bringing the slavic language into the balkans when they resided on the northern area of the black sea.
    There are even suggestions that some small portions of sarmatian/slavs per part of the gothic invasion army........usually the cannon-fodder
    What? Cannon-fodder? That's... crazy...
    Who would claim something like that.

    as per
    Pokorny, supported it by claiming that the suggested connection between Lat. aes (copper) and Skr. ayas (metal) with Celtic *isarnon is wrong, because the latter is not of Celtic origin, but the long "i" of the Celtic word is best explained if we regard Illyrian as the source of the Celtic term. He claimed that this was supported by archaeological data and concluding that the Illyrian word for iron passed into Celtic when Celts first learned the use of the new metal by Illyrians (Pokorny, J. Sprachforschung, XLVI, 1914, p. 293).

    also read
    Katičić, Radoslav (1976). Ancient Languages of the Balkans, Part One.

    Benać, Alojz (1964). Symposium sur la Délimitation Territoriale et Chronologique des Illyriens à l’Epoque Préhistorique

    a Hungarian ,János Harmatta placed Illyrians in South Germany and the Alpine region. Tribes living there would have spoken Illyrian which deferred from Latin, German and Venetic. Around 1300 BC, the people of the Barrow-mound culture, the Illyrians, moved eastwards and then southwards along the Danube (the first Illyr migration) and in 750 BC the people of the Hallstatt C culture expanded toward western Hungary (the second Illyr migration) which gathered Pannonian tribes to itself.[12] 1000 BC is considered the beginning of the historical peoples we call the Illyrians.
    Sorry, what? "Pan-Illyrian theories". That is complete nonsense, and also completely outdated (notice that Pokorny posted this in 1914). As I stated before, there is no evidence for Illyrians north of the Alps. The Hallstatt Culture clearly was a southern outgrowth of the earlier Urnfield Culture.

    When we consider that slavic is a "newer" language for the balkans is when we will find the truth
    Now that's pretty obvious. There were no Slavic languages spoken on the Balkans before the migrations period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    LOL, i am not albanian and I am not american. LOL

    your map is over 1000 years wrong. I stated pre-bronze age and you give me a map of ???//, You might as well used today's map.
    what you give strabo books and now you me about 1000 years old?
    when strabo lived? and what years is that map?

    I guess in mind is Illyrian = celtic and celtic = illyrian

    At least you could say I make a mistake when I wrote Illyrian items from Constance (illyrian swords and poterry from constnce?)

    Pre bronze age!!!!!! so we kick away strabo now and we name illyria the constance?

    can you give us the source?


    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    your stupidy is beyond belief, read strabo

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...trabo/7E*.html
    part 1

    So then, let me speak first of the Illyrian parts, which join the Ister and that part of p253the Alps which lies between Italy and Germany and begins at the lake268 which is near the country of the Vindelici, Rhaeti, and Toenii.269

    268 Lake Constance (the Bodensee), see 7.1.5.

    269 Meineke emends "Toenii" (otherwise unknown) to "Helvetii," the word one would expect here (cp. 7.1.5); but (on textual grounds) "Toygeni" (cp.7.2.2) is almost certainly the correct reading.

    And what is this USA rubbish you quote, I have been there and so, I have been to asian countries as well, so what is this infatuation with the USA you have?

    my stupidity!!!!!!!!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    as part of this triangulation of languages, I still claim that there was no direct link between celtic and slavic, but links firstly between germanic and slavic due to the bastanae - sarmatian vicinity and the celtic and illyrian merging of words.
    The goths being east-germanic/nordic peoples would also have had an influence on bringing the slavic language into the balkans when they resided on the northern area of the black sea.
    There are even suggestions that some small portions of sarmatian/slavs per part of the gothic invasion army........usually the cannon-fodder

    as per
    Pokorny, supported it by claiming that the suggested connection between Lat. aes (copper) and Skr. ayas (metal) with Celtic *isarnon is wrong, because the latter is not of Celtic origin, but the long "i" of the Celtic word is best explained if we regard Illyrian as the source of the Celtic term. He claimed that this was supported by archaeological data and concluding that the Illyrian word for iron passed into Celtic when Celts first learned the use of the new metal by Illyrians (Pokorny, J. Sprachforschung, XLVI, 1914, p. 293).

    also read
    Katičić, Radoslav (1976). Ancient Languages of the Balkans, Part One.

    Benać, Alojz (1964). Symposium sur la Délimitation Territoriale et Chronologique des Illyriens à l’Epoque Préhistorique

    a Hungarian ,János Harmatta placed Illyrians in South Germany and the Alpine region. Tribes living there would have spoken Illyrian which deferred from Latin, German and Venetic. Around 1300 BC, the people of the Barrow-mound culture, the Illyrians, moved eastwards and then southwards along the Danube (the first Illyr migration) and in 750 BC the people of the Hallstatt C culture expanded toward western Hungary (the second Illyr migration) which gathered Pannonian tribes to itself.[12] 1000 BC is considered the beginning of the historical peoples we call the Illyrians.

    When we consider that slavic is a "newer" language for the balkans is when we will find the truth

    why you are mixing things?

    try to distinguish the words,

    Illyrians is the Illyrian proprie dicti,
    Illyricum is a geografical province

    Illyria was habited by Celts

    but lake constance was habited by Illyrians?

    make clear that

    greeks name Celtic area all the north from montenegro to pannoni
    and semi celt today albania

    also modern Greek are connecting Brygian with Briganti Celtic (under discuss), or an Iranian R1a tribe Skudet, Irano-Scuthian speaking

    it is another word illyria, another illyricum and another Keltos

    the way you write is Illyrian moves to lake constance and then returned,

    But who Illyrians ???

    the Iapodes? the Albanians? the Carians? the carantanians? the liburni?

    All these are different speaking people,

    Celts move to Illyria but Illyrian does not mean celt


    simply if I am stupid and realize what you writing, then I wonder what the smarts would think


    you tell me to read Strabo I read strabo I find mistakes that your author had make (vindelici infront of Oennus (inn) I give map of strabo times and you tell me that this map is 1000 years old?

    who knows maybe strabo wrote about geography 1000 years before of him

    I Believe instead of call me stupid, just look at the mirror


    Greeks mention a celtic invasion at about 1600-2000 Bc estimation times repelled by Illyrus,
    so they name the Land Illyria after his Victory against Celts

    how the the invaders have same name with defenders????
    Last edited by iapetoc; 26-06-11 at 15:30.

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    Actually, lake Constance was not inhabited by Illyrians. Strabo just lumps the land north of the alps and adjacent to the Danube to Illyria. He's very precise about the people who lived adjacent to Lake Constance: Toenii (probably the Toygenii, a Helvetian tribe), the Vindelici and the Rhaetians. The former two were obviously Celtic, the latter spoke a language akin to Etruscan.

    There's also "Brigantion" (Bregenz), which was the main town of the Vindelici Briganti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Actually, lake Constance was not inhabited by Illyrians. Strabo just lumps the land north of the alps and adjacent to the Danube to Illyria. He's very precise about the people who lived adjacent to Lake Constance: Toenii (probably the Toygenii, a Helvetian tribe), the Vindelici and the Rhaetians. The former two were obviously Celtic, the latter spoke a language akin to Etruscan.

    There's also "Brigantion" (Bregenz), which was the main town of the Vindelici Briganti.

    east of Inn
    that lake is east of Inn, not west of Inn the Toenii is a guess that are Helveti due to toygenii
    but that lake could be also in todays austrian lakes who are 1 day and night from vindelici
    and since Bigest illyria starts from about today wienn or nearby austria

    the toenii is a guess,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Actually, lake Constance was not inhabited by Illyrians. Strabo just lumps the land north of the alps and adjacent to the Danube to Illyria. He's very precise about the people who lived adjacent to Lake Constance: Toenii (probably the Toygenii, a Helvetian tribe), the Vindelici and the Rhaetians. The former two were obviously Celtic, the latter spoke a language akin to Etruscan.

    There's also "Brigantion" (Bregenz), which was the main town of the Vindelici Briganti.
    According to the Strabo's text, Roman province of Illirya itself is mostly populated with Pannonians and other people, not by Illyrians... thing is Romans deliberately made weird borders of provinces in order to confuse national identities of people and create big melting pot... that strategy worked quite well...for them... but creates wrong identifications later...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    there is wide agreement among Slavic ethnologists and linguists that tribal name "Srbi" (Serbs) is not a word of slavic origin...

    personally I find word "Srp" which means "sickle" a possible slavic root.... I see that google translate in fact translate "srp" as "crescent" as well... think it was a bit more arhaic usage.... so probably "srp" is about shape of crescent and sickle... e.g. as the ones in Serbian coat of arms



    I do not think coat of arms is copy of Byzantine Paleologi dinasty one with 4 'B' instead of sickles ...
    (King of Kings, Ruling Over Rulers (Βασιλεὺς Βασιλέων Βασιλεύων Βασιλευόντων/Βασιλεῦσι, Basileus Basileon Basileuon Basileuonton/Basileusi).)



    Paleologi dinasty origin from theme of Macedonia that was heavily settled by Serbs at the time... so, the coat of arms pattern may have travelled other way around..... anyway key difference is in "sickle" vs. letter 'B'

    look at coat of arms of 'house of Mrnjavcevic" Serbian nobles from Macedonia from 13th and 14th century



    btw. the Celtic cross is similar pattern of 4 "sickles" around a cross

    in simple version sickles are turned other way around - towards interior


    in more complex versions you can also see inner sickles oriented towards exterior that make cross - and those inner sickles are identical as the one on coat of arms of house of Mrnjavcevici given above...



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    btw. note the sickle/crescent as horns on helmets of Sherden/sherdana sea peoples
    whose tribal name is origin for place name Serbonian bog in Egypt...





    now, compare Sherdana with non-Greek names for Scordus mountain , and it is clear that Scordisci is Greek exonym of Celtic version of some tribal name probably of Shardana....

    Scordus in Greek
    Šar planina (Šar mountain) in south Slavic
    Shar Dagh in Ottoman Turkish
    Malet e Sharrit in Albanian
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ar_Mountains

    in fact isn't turkish or Asia minor word Shar Dagh almost the same as Shardana?


    look at Thraco-Cimmerians findings in Europe


    I2a spread, west linear potery spread, Celts, early Slavs spread... same directions and locations...
    .....
    State of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it.... Seneca's Serians in Europe are mentioned in relation to Danube (daring to cross frozen Danube on feet) and in relation to Scythians (rulling over them)... Scythians are R1a, thus proto-Slavs, so Serians/Zeruiani can be only I2a2... which is haplogroup dominant in Serbs....
    ....

    compare Šar planina,Shar Dagh, and Malet e Sharrit with tribal name Serians/Serres...

    to Sherdana related Lycians (whose several later rulers were called Sarpe-don) are Lukka sea peoples... note that Asia minor is area of influence of Cimmerians... note that some historians think that Cimmerians were original Celts...


    that in Cappadocia where Cimmerians settled, Strabo finds white Syrians and now we find I2a in Kurds...


    much later Byzantine emperor writes that Serbs origin from white Serbs who came from area (whose description only fits to Bohemia) where they have also originally dwellt...

    while in same time Bavarian geographer writes that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it.... aren't Zeruiani clearly the same as Seneca's Serians (also known as Serres)...aren't they likely same people as Cimmerians / white Syrians? and what about white Syrians / white Serbs?
    ....

    Josephus related the Biblical figure Gomer to Galatia (or perhaps to Gaul in general). "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, [Galls,] but were then called Gomerites." Antiquities of the Jews, I:6. Others have related Gomer to Cimmerians.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

    Josephus placed Gomer and the "Gomerites" in Anatolian Galatia: "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, but were then called Gomerites."[3] Galatia in fact takes its name from the ancient Gauls (Celts) who settled there. However, the later Christian writer Hippolytus of Rome in c. 234 assigned Gomer as the ancestor of the Cappadocians, neighbours of the Galatians.[4] Jerome (c. 390) and Isidore of Seville (c. 600) followed Josephus' identification of Gomer with the Galatians, Gauls and Celts.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomer
    ok, Cappadocians origin from Cimmerians

    now let's what Strabo writes of Cappadocians...

    The country of the Assyrians borders on Persis and Susiana. This name1 is given to Babylonia and to much of the country all round, which latter, in part, is also called Aturia, in which are Ninus, Apolloniatis, the Elymaei, the Paraetacae, the Chalonitis in the neighbourhood of Mt. Zagrus, the plains in the neighbourhood of Ninus, and also Dolomenê and Calachenê and Chazenê and Adiabenê, and the tribes of Mesopotamia in the neighbourhood of the Gordyaeans, and the Mygdonians in the neighbourhood of Nisibis, as far as the Zeugma2 of the Euphrates, as also much of the country on the far side of the Euphrates, which is occupied by Arabians, and those people who in a special sense of the term are called by the men of to‑day Syrians, who extend as far as the Cilicians and the Phoenicians and the Judaeans and the sea that is opposite the Aegyptian Sea and the Gulf of Issus.

    2 It seems that the name of the Syrians extended not only from Babylonia to the Gulf of Issus, but also in ancient times from this gulf to the Euxine. At any rate, both tribes of the Cappadocians, both those near the Taurus and those near the Pontus, have to the present time been called "White Syrians,"3 as though some Syrians were black, these being the Syrians who live outside the Taurus; and when I say "Taurus," I am extending the name as far as the Amanus. When those who have written histories of the Syrian empire say that the Medes were overthrown by the Persians and the Syrians by the Medes, they mean by the Syrians no other people than those who built the royal palaces in Babylon and Ninus; and, of these Syrians, Ninus was the man who founded Ninus in Aturia, and his wife, Semiramis, was the woman who succeeded her husband and founded Babylon. These two gained the mastery of Asia; and as for Semiramis, apart from her works at Babylon, many others are also to be seen throughout almost the whole of that continent, I mean the mounds called the Mounds of Semiramis, and walls, and the construction of fortifications with aqueducts therein, and of reservoirs for drinking-water, and of ladder-like ascents of mountains, and of channels in rivers and lakes, and of roads and bridges. And they left to their successors their empire until the time of the empires of Sardanapalus and Arbaces. But later the empire passed over to the Medes.

    3 Now the city Ninus4 was wiped out immediately after the overthrow of the Syrians.5 It was much greater than Babylon, and was situated in the plain of Aturia. Aturia borders on the region of Arbela, with the Lycus River lying between them. Now Arbela, which lies opposite to Babylonia, belongs to that country; and in the country on the p197far side of the Lycus River lie the plains of Aturia, which surround Ninus. In Aturia is a village Gaugamela, where Dareius was conquered and lost his empire. Now this is a famous place, as is also its name, which, being interpreted, means "Camel's House." Dareius, the son of Hystaspes, so named it, having given it as an estate for the maintenance of the camel which helped most on the toilsome journey through the deserts of Scythia with the burdens containing sustenance and support for the king. However, the Macedonians, seeing that this was a cheap village, but that Arbela was a notable settlement (founded, as it is said, by Arbelus, the son of Athmoneus), announced that the battle and victory took place near Arbela and so transmitted their account to the historians.
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/16A*.html

    Cimmerians = Cappadocians = white Syrians
    hm, Syrians and white Syrians...
    in Europe thraco-Cimmerians whose archeological findings match I2a2 spread
    and "white Serbs" who move to Balkan from Bohemia (where they also originally dwelt) to become Serbs....

    crescent or moon relation to tribal name of Serians goes even further...


    Sart is a name for the settled inhabitants of Central Asia which has had shifting meanings over the centuries. Sarts, known sometimes as Ak-Sart ("White Sart") in ancient times, did not have any particular ethnic identification, and were usually (though not always) town-dwellers.
    ...
    13-th century Mongolian source, "Secret History of the Mongols" states that the Mongols called people from Central Asia, most notably Khwarezm, as "Sartuul". "Sar" in Mongolian means "moon", hence sart or sarta would mean "ones with (flag with) moon", since the Muslim people had Hilal symbol on their flags. One of the Mongolian tribes living in the Zavkhan province are descendants of merchants from Khwarezm, who resided in Harhorin. This tribe, still, is called Sartuul.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

    so far we had white syrians and white Serbs, but now we also have White Sart in areas that roughly match Serica and upper part of arc from China to India.... lower part of arc is clearly matched to Pasthun Sarbans...

    thus, Seneca was right... that used to be same people in distant past...
    and Bavarian geographer was right, state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it... and not just Slavs I would add..

    The modern Uzbek people are believed to have both Iranian and Turkic ancestry. "Uzbek" and "Tajik" are modern designations given to the culturally homogeneous, sedentary population of Central Asia. The local ancestors of both groups - the Turkic-speaking Uzbeks and the Iranian-speaking Tajiks - were known as "Sarts" ("sedentary merchants") prior to the Russian conquest of Central Asia, while "Uzbek" or "Turk" were the names given to the nomadic and semi-nomadic populations of the area. Still today, modern Uzbeks and Tajiks are known as "Sarts" to their Turkic neighbours, the Kazakhs and the Kyrgyz.
    (white) Serians of Asia are thus incorporated in Uzbeks and Tajiks as well...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples

    and finally also Serica proper or northwest China

    Interestingly, the Muslim, Mongol-speaking Dongxiang people of Northwestern China call themselves Sarta or Santa. It is not clear if there is any connection between this term and the Sarts of Central Asia.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

    isn't this evidence that tribal names stay preserved longer than languages, because tribal names carry identity like last names in individuals?

    The Dongxiang are closely related to the Mongolians. Scholars speculate that their identity as an independent ethnic group arose through contact with Central Asians, due to whom the Dongxiang converted to Sunni Islam in the 13th century.
    ...
    Their autonym, sarta, may also provide a contradictory clue to their origin: a similar word Sart was formerly used in Central Asia to refer to Arab traders[citation needed], later to the local (mostly) Turkic-speaking city dwellers.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongxiang_people

    let's look back at what Seneca told us...
    369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.

    27. i.e. the frozen surface.
    28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.
    Seneca - Thyestes
    http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html


    Serica was big trade state... it had startegic arc that linked China and India... lower part of the arc is easily mapped to Pasthun Sarbans, upper part to Tajiks or Uzbeks who are named Sart by their turkic neighbours... on place where silk was grown in Serica proper we find Sart people as well.....

    Serians had on Red sea Arab state of Sabeans or Sheba... they were merchants involved in spice trade...
    in Caspian highlands we have Serboi
    on north shores of Black sea there were Siraces who were same or related to Serboi... Siraces were merchants...

    and in Europe Serians rulled over Scythians and lived along Danube..... thus again along trade root...

    haplogroup I clearly maps to Serians of Asia, we can see northwest china and arc from China to India very clearly... those are Sart people..or Serians of Seneca...



    some pictures of Sart Dongxiang Chinese people




    some picture of Sart Uzbek/Tajik people
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 26-06-11 at 18:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    what you give strabo books and now you me about 1000 years old?
    when strabo lived? and what years is that map?

    I guess in mind is Illyrian = celtic and celtic = illyrian

    At least you could say I make a mistake when I wrote Illyrian items from Constance (illyrian swords and poterry from constnce?)

    Pre bronze age!!!!!! so we kick away strabo now and we name illyria the constance?

    can you give us the source?





    my stupidity!!!!!!!!!!





    why you are mixing things?

    try to distinguish the words,

    Illyrians is the Illyrian proprie dicti,
    Illyricum is a geografical province

    Illyria was habited by Celts

    but lake constance was habited by Illyrians?

    make clear that

    greeks name Celtic area all the north from montenegro to pannoni
    and semi celt today albania

    also modern Greek are connecting Brygian with Briganti Celtic (under discuss), or an Iranian R1a tribe Skudet, Irano-Scuthian speaking

    it is another word illyria, another illyricum and another Keltos

    the way you write is Illyrian moves to lake constance and then returned,

    But who Illyrians ???

    the Iapodes? the Albanians? the Carians? the carantanians? the liburni?

    All these are different speaking people,

    Celts move to Illyria but Illyrian does not mean celt


    simply if I am stupid and realize what you writing, then I wonder what the smarts would think


    you tell me to read Strabo I read strabo I find mistakes that your author had make (vindelici infront of Oennus (inn) I give map of strabo times and you tell me that this map is 1000 years old?

    who knows maybe strabo wrote about geography 1000 years before of him

    I Believe instead of call me stupid, just look at the mirror


    Greeks mention a celtic invasion at about 1600-2000 Bc estimation times repelled by Illyrus,
    so they name the Land Illyria after his Victory against Celts

    how the the invaders have same name with defenders????

    greeks say celt lands start after montengro ??.........did i read this correctly!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    What? Cannon-fodder? That's... crazy...
    Who would claim something like that.
    i will get the goth commander , but this system was used , when the goths after taking over the venedi and the aestii , used these "new" troops on the front lines of battles , to take the brunt . used on the bastanae, then bastanae used on the sarmatians .........it was a gothic method of fighting.

    Sorry, what? "Pan-Illyrian theories". That is complete nonsense, and also completely outdated (notice that Pokorny posted this in 1914). As I stated before, there is no evidence for Illyrians north of the Alps. The Hallstatt Culture clearly was a southern outgrowth of the earlier Urnfield Culture.
    outdated? what does year have to do with it.

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    read part 11 and 12 on the scordisci

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...trabo/7E*.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    greeks say celt lands start after montengro ??.........did i read this correctly!
    Not exactly,
    Greek ancient authors say that Celts enter and reach north Greece but Pelasgians pushed them back,
    and the land that pealsgians regain is Illyria, half montenegro, above of most monte negro can be considered some Celtic Land at about 1600-2000 Bc,
    in Fact they say which tribes and areas were pure celtic and which almost mixed,
    in fact the give Celtos (Tribe father, the today slovenia) and sons and etc,
    All names have a meaning, in mythology, so greeks say pure celtic the slovenia area and the more near that name the more Celtic while the more far as son means less celtic
    by the later authors at makedonian times we find that Celts reached today Epirus and possibly some of them passed to Aetolia (scatter groups or small tribes)
    that can make sence cause we are before myceneans and in south greece r1b is bigger than R1a while in central and north R1a is bigger than R1b

    your mistake is that is another the Illyrians that strabo writes and another the Illyrians you mention,

    Greeks make a clear difference
    Illyrians = Pelasgian +celtic
    Celtic = Celtic
    Dardani = Illyro-Thracians
    Thracians = Non Celtic probably

    to understand read pliny about Illyria proprie dicti,
    monte negro dalmatia was not considered Illyria
    later the romans in order to rule thay change the names and create illyricum
    and gave south Illyria to makedonia,

    the celtic is more clear than the Illyria,
    Illyricum was never 1 nation
    wjile Illyria was a nation
    pliny can help you realise,

    Iapodes Liburni Carni are not Illyrians,

    so the Pan-illyrism is wrong

    it is like the bellow
    ottomans enter Greeks, but ottomans are Greeks

    that theory was created by Albanians Nationalists in 1912 and after so to explain why Austria help them that time,
    in fact many linguists Albanologists from Austria came to push pan Illyrianism, but some deserted cause of luck of evidence and other rejected,

    you can put illyrians to Celtic family as half Celtic as para celtic
    But not Celtic as Illyrians,

    I really wonder what you finally want to say ?
    it is better to say clear what you think so to argue clear than give mistaken theories or believes

    for example in the Strabo you say, Agrianes are Thracians not Illyrians


    the panillyrian theory is simmilar to pan Albanian theory,
    makes austrian greeks croats sloveni serbs bulgarian romanian thracians and south italy 1 nation
    only in Pan Albanism serbs and bulgarian are not illrians,

    just think the Iapodes the liburni and the carians as celts !!!!!!!!!!!!!
    or the odrysee thracians as celts
    or magna Grecia as Celts !!!!!!!!!!!

    the one you do not see is that speaks about Geography of Illyricum and not about Illyrian nation

    like someone describes S Africa and names tribes
    All tribes are S african but not all tribes Zulu
    All S africa are not Zulu

    pliny gives clear differences. on what is Illyrians as nation and what is Illyricum as province


    just compare the other case Cyclops and Galatea (Phoenician +gauls) (created by Greek epidamnians, exist in Apian writings)
    with the apollodorus (Pelasgian +celtic)

    even in first case we find Keltos are brother of Illyrus
    means Illyrus is half-blooded Celtic
    Galus is half blood Celtic
    and Keltus is half blooded non Celtic (son of a cyclop-Phoenician sicily)
    in both myths we find the same union the non IE east mediteraneo phoenician or Pelasgic (cadmus brother of Phoenix) with a woman name Galatea (celtic)

    the woman in greek mythology is usually means the lost power, weak power
    the steal of Europe etc
    that means Illyrian was created when Galateans became weak and lost and ruled by phoenicians according the epidamnean myth

    same conclusion we extract from Greek myth
    Cadmus ruled over today half Fyrom and boarded kossufo,
    Celts enter so Illyrus pushed back and create the illyrians who are a mix of non IE (pelasgians brothers of phoenicians) and IE Celts

    the Illyrian items from lake constance is just ........
    and you still did not give the source who arcahiologist said that.

    Pliny in his Historia Naturalis gives a clear difference of Illyrians as nation and tribes and of other Illyricum Nations

    all this before troy and myceneans
    the estimation time is 1600-2000 and mostly 1800-2000 BC the later carnians etc are non Celtic pop


    and stop pretending the stupid

    I wrote it and explain in many posts



    Stop hiding behind your finger
    only in Albanian nationalists the theory that Celts are Illyrians exist

    tell us clearly what you want to say, or this half or semi words swallow them

    cause if you like irony I can use also

    you said Bryges are asians while in the same chapter you use text from strabo CLEARLY NAMES BRIGANTES


    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    In the ancient times, asia started in asia minor, so the Brygians where classifed asiatics

    but the Bessi, who inhabit the greater part of the Haemus Mountain, are called brigands even by the brigands

    chapter 12

    search for Antoninus Placentius
    Bessian language.


    just wonder
    Polish are slavic
    or Slavic are Polish?
    Last edited by iapetoc; 27-06-11 at 16:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post

    Iapodes Liburni Carni are not Illyrians,
    Who are then then if not illyrians, I know they all spoke Venetic but where not veneti.


    just think the Iapodes the liburni and the carians as celts !!!!!!!!!!!!!
    carians? ..they are persians, you mean carni

    the one you do not see is that speaks about Geography of Illyricum and not about Illyrian nation
    I never speak of borders both past and present because borders are irrelevant in discussing tribes or cultures. So I do not care about the Roman province , its about the people.

    like someone describes S Africa and names tribes
    All tribes are S african but not all tribes Zulu
    All S africa are not Zulu
    And ? All spaniards are not all castilian. Whats your point?


    pliny gives clear differences. on what is Illyrians as nation and what is Illyricum as province
    If strabo and Livy say different to Pliny, why do you accept Pliny?

    just compare the other case Cyclops and Galatea (Phoenician +gauls) (created by Greek epidamnians, exist in Apian writings)
    with the apollodorus (Pelasgian +celtic)

    even in first case we find Keltos are brother of Illyrus
    means Illyrus is half-blooded Celtic
    Galus is half blood Celtic
    and Keltus is half blooded non Celtic (son of a cyclop-Phoenician sicily)
    in both myths we find the same union the non IE east mediteraneo phoenician or Pelasgic (cadmus brother of Phoenix) with a woman name Galatea (celtic)
    Mythology , and zeus came from Mount Olympus and did this and that..........Just go to the facts .....

    the Illyrian items from lake constance is just ........
    and you still did not give the source who arcahiologist said that.
    The Inn river valley's advantageous geographical position made it a natural choice for early settlers. During the Bronze Age, Illyrians populated the valley areas that proved safe areas from the threat of flooding. Remnants of Illyrian urns can be found in the districts of Wilten, Hötting and Mühlau, whilst artefacts originating from an Illyrian settlement were unearthed on the hill at Vill. Numerous districts of present-day Innsbruck bear names derived from those of the ancient settlements, such as Aldrans, Lans, Igls and Vill.

    illyrian tribes in the tyrol austria
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeti#Tribes

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Who are then then if not illyrians, I know they all spoke Venetic but where not veneti.




    carians? ..they are persians, you mean carni



    I never speak of borders both past and present because borders are irrelevant in discussing tribes or cultures. So I do not care about the Roman province , its about the people.



    And ? All spaniards are not all castilian. Whats your point?



    If strabo and Livy say different to Pliny, why do you accept Pliny?


    Mythology , and zeus came from Mount Olympus and did this and that..........Just go to the facts .....



    The Inn river valley's advantageous geographical position made it a natural choice for early settlers. During the Bronze Age, Illyrians populated the valley areas that proved safe areas from the threat of flooding. Remnants of Illyrian urns can be found in the districts of Wilten, Hötting and Mühlau, whilst artefacts originating from an Illyrian settlement were unearthed on the hill at Vill. Numerous districts of present-day Innsbruck bear names derived from those of the ancient settlements, such as Aldrans, Lans, Igls and Vill.

    illyrian tribes in the tyrol austria
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeti#Tribes

    Against Strabo, Pliny considers the Lepontii as a Celtic tribe akin to the Taurisci and classifies the Camunni as an Euganean tribe, together with the Trumplini of the neighbouring valley, Val Trompia.[14] However, neither of Pliny's comments is fatal to the identification of the Lepontii and Camunni as Raeti. The Lepontic language has been definitively classified as Celtic, but it contains non Indo-European elements in a similar way to contemporary Celtiberian in Spain. This is consistent with a Raetic origin to the Lepontii and subsequent Celtisation. As for the Euganei, their linguistic classification is uncertain. It is possible that their speech too was related to Etruscan and that they could be considered a sub-group of the Raeti nation. Alternatively they may have been proto-Italic akin to the Veneti.
    In addition, it appears that "Raetia et Vindelicia" was inhabited by a number of non-Raetic tribes also. The Breuni and Genauni are classified as Illyrian by Strabo, while a number of tribes in the region such as the Caturiges and Nantuates have plausible Celtic etymologies: from catu- ("fight" or "warriors") and nantu- ("valley") respectively.[15]
    In addition to the tribal names supplied by the ancient sources, the Tropaeum Alpium inscription contains a number of other names which have been identified as inhabiting the territory of Raetia et Vindelicia, based on philology and proximity to documented tribes. Eliminating those tribes that are probably Celtic (on personal names) the following list of possible Raeti tribes results:


    do you understand what it says???????????????

    and what you wrote???????????

    and what you claim??????????????????????????


    pliny makes clear difference who are the Illyrians and who are living in Illyria,
    Strabo just names parts of Illyrians,

    if carni and the others were Illyrians then I am airplane,

    Venetic is not Illyrian
    Etruscan are another story and other the Illyria although they have connection,

    the theory of Hans Krahe today is off,
    the mistake that we make if we follow with his laws are tremendus. especially in balkans
    krahe renamed the language of Dinaric celts to Illyrian.


    the Alfoldoy describes clear and sends to bucket the Albanocentrist theory of Panillyrian based on krahe

    in fact the ones that Krahe names Illyrian, Greeks name it Celtic

    while the ones that Greek and pliny names Illyria is what today after Alfoldy and Pohl fits
    simply if we had few words more from strabo or another one then we knew surely about the centum or satem of many Illyricum parts,

    the Krahe theory which he connected also with prokomy is following the same theory you share
    dialect = ethnicity while from 2000 his theory is over, Pohl proved the old moto of a living language,
    so a language even if it is teached takes others forms or meaning in 2 groups even if communication among those groups is not cut,
    Language is a living thing that transforms thru years,


    the only who still use krahe are the Albanian nationalists
    Last edited by iapetoc; 07-07-11 at 07:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    Against Strabo, Pliny considers the Lepontii as a Celtic tribe akin to the Taurisci and classifies the Camunni as an Euganean tribe, together with the Trumplini of the neighbouring valley, Val Trompia.[14] However, neither of Pliny's comments is fatal to the identification of the Lepontii and Camunni as Raeti. The Lepontic language has been definitively classified as Celtic, but it contains non Indo-European elements in a similar way to contemporary Celtiberian in Spain. This is consistent with a Raetic origin to the Lepontii and subsequent Celtisation. As for the Euganei, their linguistic classification is uncertain. It is possible that their speech too was related to Etruscan and that they could be considered a sub-group of the Raeti nation. Alternatively they may have been proto-Italic akin to the Veneti.
    In addition, it appears that "Raetia et Vindelicia" was inhabited by a number of non-Raetic tribes also. The Breuni and Genauni are classified as Illyrian by Strabo, while a number of tribes in the region such as the Caturiges and Nantuates have plausible Celtic etymologies: from catu- ("fight" or "warriors") and nantu- ("valley") respectively.[15]
    In addition to the tribal names supplied by the ancient sources, the Tropaeum Alpium inscription contains a number of other names which have been identified as inhabiting the territory of Raetia et Vindelicia, based on philology and proximity to documented tribes. Eliminating those tribes that are probably Celtic (on personal names) the following list of possible Raeti tribes results:


    do you understand what it says???????????????

    and what you wrote???????????

    and what you claim??????????????????????????


    pliny makes clear difference who are the Illyrians and who are living in Illyria,
    Strabo just names parts of Illyrians,

    if carni and the others were Illyrians then I am airplane,

    Venetic is not Illyrian
    Etruscan are another story and other the Illyria although they have connection,

    the theory of Hans Krahe today is off,
    the mistake that we make if we follow with his laws are tremendus. especially in balkans
    krahe renamed the language of Dinaric celts to Illyrian.


    the Alfoldoy describes clear and sends to bucket the Albanocentrist theory of Panillyrian based on krahe

    in fact the ones that Krahe names Illyrian, Greeks name it Celtic

    while the ones that Greek and pliny names Illyria is what today after Alfoldy and Pohl fits
    simply if we had few words more from strabo or another one then we knew surely about the centum or satem of many Illyricum parts,
    your problem is that you associate illyrian with slavic or albanian....clear your head, the illyrians are not these people.

    Veneti have to be illyrians ( northern illyrians ) because their capital Ateste ( Este) is a illyrian word, the carni have to be illyrian, their capital Tergeste ( Trieste ) is an illyrian word. The raetian people was named raetian by the Romans because they prayed to the same goddess as the Venetic goddess Rhaetia ( Artemis in Greek), and spoke a similar language to venetic . The venetic language was spoken by northern illyrian tribes.
    Other tribes originally thought to have been Illyrians were actually related to Veneti, such as:


    and a few more which I can name. related to me means linguistically.

    The veneti did not reach the alps, be it the eugenian, dolomite or julian alps

    What i read is that the celts in southern Germany assimilated the illyrians around 900BC in the alps as their languages where similar ( you can see this assimilation as time passes also in pannonian area, eastern alps, dalmatian lands etc etc ) , over time, venetic disappeared into either an italic version or a celtic version.

    Venetian archives says , the veneti became germainc -celts in customs , while the carni became gallic-celts by customs. Actually the carni ( who are friulian people) still speak today a ancient southern french language mixed with venetian and italian.

    Strabo, Livy, Polybius, Herodorous say the same things, Pliny is the odd one out.

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    where herodotus say that?
    where polyvius say that?

    simply I don't get your point and you don't get mine,

    I say clearly something,
    the group you name Illyrians are Venedi, or celtic

    maybe you don't accept myths, ok,
    then exept vennedi who are not mentioned in the myth, the rest are Celtic, exept Illyria proprie, the case of a before-celtic then we must search if it was IE or not,

    by what I understand you seek the celtic branch ?
    or the venedic branch?
    and who was germano and who was galato?

    it is hard for me, this time of hour,

    simply -este is after Italic version
    in Romanian is -Esti
    in greek is εστη εστι
    and means nest
    so Tergeste could means nest of terg
    while trieste means nest of trie

    so bucur-esti is illyrian and esti-onia are Illyrians?

    yes you are right

    buda-pesti is illyrian,

    rhaetia = Artemis?

    sory i can't follow you I am tired,.
    explaine clear what you search and you believe,
    Last edited by iapetoc; 07-07-11 at 12:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    where herodotus say that?
    where polyvius say that?

    simply I don't get your point and you don't get mine,

    I say clearly something,
    the group you name Illyrians are Venedi, or celtic

    maybe you don't accept myths, ok,
    then exept vennedi who are not mentioned in the myth, the rest are Celtic, exept Illyria proprie, the case of a before-celtic then we must search if it was IE or not,

    by what I understand you seek the celtic branch ?
    or the venedic branch?
    and who was germano and who was galato?

    it is hard for me, this time of hour,

    simply -este is after Italic version
    in Romanian is -Esti
    in greek is εστη εστι
    and means nest
    so Tergeste could means nest of terg
    while trieste means nest of trie

    so bucur-esti is illyrian and esti-onia are Illyrians?

    yes you are right

    buda-pesti is illyrian,

    rhaetia = Artemis?

    sory i can't follow you I am tired,.
    explaine clear what you search and you believe,
    why do you think that venice was placed under the eastern Roman Empire and not under the western Roman empire,...........because the romans kept tribal peoples together, since dalmatia and istria was illyrian , and under the east roman empire, the romans placed venice and the veneti under the eastern empire. same race , same tribal people.


    misspelt reitia before
    Reitia (Venetic: :::) is a goddess, one of the best known deities of the Adriatic Veneti of northeastern Italy. While her place in the Venetic pantheon cannot be known for certain, the importance of her cultus to Venetic society is well attested in archaeological finds. A large body of votive offerings on pottery and metal objects has been found at a Venetic shrine in Baratella, near Este.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    where herodotus say that?
    where polyvius say that?

    simply I don't get your point and you don't get mine,

    I say clearly something,
    the group you name Illyrians are Venedi, or celtic

    maybe you don't accept myths, ok,
    then exept vennedi who are not mentioned in the myth, the rest are Celtic, exept Illyria proprie, the case of a before-celtic then we must search if it was IE or not,

    by what I understand you seek the celtic branch ?
    or the venedic branch?
    and who was germano and who was galato?

    it is hard for me, this time of hour,

    simply -este is after Italic version
    in Romanian is -Esti
    in greek is εστη εστι
    and means nest
    so Tergeste could means nest of terg
    while trieste means nest of trie

    so bucur-esti is illyrian and esti-onia are Illyrians?

    yes you are right

    buda-pesti is illyrian,

    rhaetia = Artemis?

    sory i can't follow you I am tired,.
    explaine clear what you search and you believe,
    why do you think that venice was placed under the eastern Roman Empire and not under the western Roman empire,...........because the romans kept tribal peoples together, since dalmatia and istria was illyrian , and under the east roman empire, the romans placed venice and the veneti under the eastern empire. same race , same tribal people.


    misspelt reitia before
    Reitia (Venetic: 𐌓𐌄:𐌉:𐌕𐌉:𐌀) is a goddess, one of the best known deities of the Adriatic Veneti of northeastern Italy. While her place in the Venetic pantheon cannot be known for certain, the importance of her cultus to Venetic society is well attested in archaeological finds. A large body of votive offerings on pottery and metal objects has been found at a Venetic shrine in Baratella, near Este.

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