Celtic - Serbian parallels

[dublin]

This resulted in the formation of a gradient of haplogroup 1 genes throughout the continent, the lowest frequency of these ancient genes being found in Turkey, and the highest frequency in Ireland, with intermediate frequencies in continental populations. In Ireland 78.1% of all men have the haplogroup 1 gene.
In Ireland men with Gaelic names have higher frequencies of this ancient marker than men with non-Gaelic names. For example, men in Ireland with surnames of English origin have 62% haplogroup 1 genes; men with Scottish names have 52.9% and men with Norman and Norse names have 83%. In Leinster, 73.3% of men with Gaelic surnames have this gene, in Munster, 94.6% and in Ulster 81.1%.
The most striking finding was that in Connaught, the westernmost point of Europe, almost all men (98.3%) carry this particular gene. This means that the people of Connaught have been relatively isolated, genetically, from the movements of people that shaped the genetic makeup of the rest of the continent. By comparison, in the east of the country there has been a lot more mixing of genes coming from foreign sources.
The prevalence of ancient genes in Ireland suggests that the Irish have largely maintained their pre-Neolithic genetic heritage. There has been little genetic influence from outside the country since the first people came to Ireland almost 9,000 years ago.

[dublin]

but in Britain

In 2007, Bryan Sykes produced an analysis of 6000 samples from the OGAP project in his book Blood of the Isles.[3] Later, Stephen Oppenheimer in his 2006 book The Origins of the British used the data from Weale et al. (2002), Capelli et al. (2003) and Rosser et al. (2000) for Europe. In opposition to Neolithic origin theories, which remain strong, Sykes and Oppenheimer argued for significant immigration from Iberia into Britain and Ireland. Much of this argument was based upon Y DNA evidence, however by 2010 several major Y DNA studies presented more complete data, showing that the oldest-surviving male lineages had mostly migrated to Britain from the Balkans, and ultimately from the Middle East, not from Iberia.[4][5][6]
In the North Welsh town of Abergele there is a very high percentage of haplogroup E1b1b1 (33%), which is thought to have dispersed around Europe mainly from the Balkans.[15]

[dublin]

and more on genetic Atlantean pople

In Trinity College Dublin, Prof. Dan Bradley and his team are using Irish Dna to explore our ancient origins and connections with other peoples. As part of this research, they have discovered that 20% of men in the north-west of Ireland are descended from just one man, Niall of the Nine Hostages, the well known high king from the 4th century who brought St Patrick as a slave to Ireland.

The Irish are strongly predisposed to the genetic variants that can trigger diseases such as cystic fibrosis, an enzyme deficiency called phenylketonuria and haemochromatosis, the disease that caused the death of former tanaiste Brian Lenihan.
Yet significant susceptibility levels for these disorders are also exhibited by others in what is generally described as the Celtic people. This includes what Bradley describes as the “Atlantic façade”, places along the Atlantic seaboard where the Celtic languages were spoken including Brittany, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and also northern Spain, particularly in the Basque regions.

[sparkey]

Dublin, please start citing your sources and indicating that quotes are quotes rather than your own writing.

In Ireland 78.1% of all men have the haplogroup 1 gene.
...
In Ireland men with Gaelic names have higher frequencies of this ancient marker than men with non-Gaelic names.
...
The prevalence of ancient genes in Ireland suggests that the Irish have largely maintained their pre-Neolithic genetic heritage. There has been little genetic influence from outside the country since the first people came to Ireland almost 9,000 years ago.

"Haplogroup 1" is a really, really old term for haplogroup R1b. The fact that this term is being used indicates how outdated this information is.

Haplogroup R1b is indeed more frequent among Gaelic and Brythonic peoples than among, say, Anglo-Saxon descendants, but it's not, as your source says, indicative of "pre-Neolithic genetic heritage." In fact, it's strong evidence against it. For an introduction, try reading Maciamo's R1b page.

In opposition to Neolithic origin theories, which remain strong, Sykes and Oppenheimer argued for significant immigration from Iberia into Britain and Ireland. Much of this argument was based upon Y DNA evidence, however by 2010 several major Y DNA studies presented more complete data, showing that the oldest-surviving male lineages had mostly migrated to Britain from the Balkans, and ultimately from the Middle East, not from Iberia.[4][5][6]

"From Iberia" is a largely outdated theory based on modern frequencies, and "from the Balkans" is a bit simplistic, and doesn't tell the whole story. The historical migration of Haplogroup R1b is a complex subject.

In the North Welsh town of Abergele there is a very high percentage of haplogroup E1b1b1 (33%), which is thought to have dispersed around Europe mainly from the Balkans.[15]

"The Balkans" is too narrow; E1b is Southern European in general in the context of Europe. A Welsh town having a high frequency of it indicates a founder effect. They possibly descend from a Roman soldier (unless a more detailed later analysis has proven this wrong), but there are also plenty of other possibilities.

In Trinity College Dublin, Prof. Dan Bradley and his team are using Irish Dna to explore our ancient origins and connections with other peoples. As part of this research, they have discovered that 20% of men in the north-west of Ireland are descended from just one man, Niall of the Nine Hostages, the well known high king from the 4th century who brought St Patrick as a slave to Ireland.

These conclusions have been considered questionable from the beginning, including by the authors themselves. To begin with, we don't know Niall's haplotype. All they really demonstrated was a regional founder effect of R1b in Ireland.

[dublin]

i would like to add sources but i am nor yet allowed to post links :)

"Haplogroup 1" is a really, really old term for haplogroup R1b

don't be picky. you know what i mean.

Haplogroup R1b is indeed more frequent among Gaelic and Brythonic peoples than among, say, Anglo-Saxon descendants, but it's not, as your source says, indicative of "pre-Neolithic genetic heritage." In fact, it's strong evidence against it

my source is Trinity College Dublin stady. Trinity College Dublin genetics department was aworded as one the best in the world.

"From Iberia" is a largely outdated theory based on modern frequencies, and "from the Balkans" is a bit simplistic, and doesn't tell the whole story.

says who?

the study of irish and uk brown bear remains (now extinct) has shown that they discend from iberian genetic sub type. this means that at some stage there was a land mass connecting british isles and iberia. if bears could go accross so could the people.

"The Balkans" is too narrow; E1b is Southern European in general in the context of Europe. A Welsh town having a high frequency of it indicates a founder effect. They possibly descend from a Roman soldier (unless a more detailed later analysis has proven this wrong), but there are also plenty of other possibilities.

source is wikipedia genetic map of britain.

[sparkey]

don't be picky. you know what i mean.

My point is that population genetics is a fast-moving field, and conclusions drawn from as little data as we had back when Haplogroup R1b wasn't even called R1b yet are of no real value anymore.

my source is Trinity College Dublin stady. Trinity College Dublin genetics department was aworded as one the best in the world.

That doesn't make the conclusions any less outdated. Since then, there have been significant advancements in international SNP testing, STR diversity analyses and dating, and ancient DNA studies. You can start with Maciamo's sources page for some scholarly corroboration. Jean Manco also keeps a good running tally of current ancient DNA samples here. The earliest R1b discovered so far dates to Beaker Culture.

the study of irish and uk brown bear remains (now extinct) has shown that they discend from iberian genetic sub type. this means that at some stage there was a land mass connecting british isles and iberia. if bears could go accross so could the people.

Sure, there could have been ancient migrations between the British Isles and Iberia that predate the Neolithic, but that has little to do with R1b-L11, which is younger than the beginning of the Neolithic. The modern haplogroup with the best possibility of dating to the Paleolithic in Northwestern Europe is haplogroup I, possibly alongside some others that are very rare or extinct nowadays. Comparing the age of I vs. R1b in Western Europe... there is no comparison, I is about 4 times as old.

source is wikipedia genetic map of britain.

Does that discount anything I said?

[hope]

My point is that population genetics is a fast-moving field, and conclusions drawn from as little data as we had back when Haplogroup R1b wasn't even called R1b yet are of no real value anymore.



That doesn't make the conclusions any less outdated. Since then, there have been significant advancements in international SNP testing, STR diversity analyses and dating, and ancient DNA studies. You can start with Maciamo's sources page for some scholarly corroboration. Jean Manco also keeps a good running tally of current ancient DNA samples here. The earliest R1b discovered so far dates to Beaker Culture.



Sure, there could have been ancient migrations between the British Isles and Iberia that predate the Neolithic, but that has little to do with R1b-L11, which is younger than the beginning of the Neolithic. The modern haplogroup with the best possibility of dating to the Paleolithic in Northwestern Europe is haplogroup I, possibly alongside some others that are very rare or extinct nowadays. Comparing the age of I vs. R1b in Western Europe... there is no comparison, I is about 4 times as old.



Does that discount anything I said?

Good post sparkey, it answered a few questions I had.

[how yes no 3]

taranis, hyn



In Serbian there is an old word "Tušta" pronounced "tushta" which means all. The expression in Serbian "Tušta i tma" means lots and lots of people, so many it is impossible to count them all, like in this sentence: “Skupilo se sveta tušta i tma” meaning “So many people gathered, it was impossible to count them”. "Stuštiti se" means to all run down together like in a battle.
Maybe this is the missing Serbian equivalent of “tuatha” you were looking for.

"tušta" is not equivalent of "Tuatha"

"tušta" is word that in Celtic means same as in Serbian -heap, abundance of something

*heap (?) | *tus-tV- (Gall., B), *teus-t- (W, B) | tušta (abundance of something.. e.g. on heap)

tuatha is PIE word... for group of people
closest word in Serbian in sound and meaning is probably "četa" - which is group of people organized in military unit....

it is interesting that "tušta" is typically used in Serbian in phrase "Tušta i tma" where neither "tušta" nor "tma" can be related to any other Slavic words.... like some other words I found here it is somehow not kind of language that literature professors would appreciate.... more like something in between archaic and slang... like part of some parallel alternative language that is still alive.... my guess is that it is a part of a vocabulary inhereted from a suppressed language.... question is where does it come from?

Scordisci did live practically in what is Serbia today... and ancient Celtic tribe that penetrates in Thrace from area of Scordisci and gradually become Thracanized has name Serdi which is in my opinion just thracanized version of Scordisci....Sc -> S same as Sclaveni are in fact Slaveni
hence S(c)ord - isci and Serd - i are in my opinion same tribal name with celtic and thracian endings...

from Serdi to Serbi there is just a little step... but important to notice is that this is just an idea...

alternatively, Celtic words in Serbian can come from words originating from language of Scordisci (previous inhabitants of Serbia) that were first adopted in vulgar latin that was imposed in region and than still preserved in Serbian.... however, while few words are exclusively linked to Serbian, most found matches also exist in other Slavic languages indicating that it is more than just adaption of words via vulgar latin, indicating that perhaps some celtic people participated in ethnogenesys of Slavic people

a clue for its correctness could be I2a-din (I2a1b1) as its other hotspot besides Serbo-Croat areas is in Ukraine in Galicia.... in my opinion Galicia same as Galatia in Asia minor is a name originally used for settlements of Celts or Gaels....

i also do remember sparkey (sparkey, correct me if i am wrong) mentioned some other rare I2a groups that some researchers speculate of belonging to Celtic people....

personally, I also suspect that I2a1a (dominant in Sardinia and found accross west Mediterraen including north Africa) in originally part of Celtic people because Celts were found in north Africa same as I2a1 (unlike other haplogroups common today in Europe) ... there is evidence of Strabo that Celts are found in Europe, Asia and Africa...

138 Few nations have wandered so far and wide as the Galatæ. We meet with them in Europe, Asia, andAfrica, under the various names of Galatæ Galatians, Gauls, and Kelts. Galatia, in Asia Minor, was settled by one of these hordes.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...hlight=galatia

I also tend to relate these people to Gomer/Cimmerian and Gomerians in north Africa....

Gomer is a name of person in mythology that is traditionally related to Germanic people... in Asia this seems to correlate with I2a2 (former I2b, which is together with I1 it is considered kind of marker of migrations of early Germanic tribes)....roman empire authors do speculate that name Germans means seed/source/ofshoot and they pinpoint that name is used for original Celts...they originally apply name essentially to Suebi or Swabians of today....

hence, it is not inconceivable that tribal names like Scordisci, Serdi, Sardinians and Suebi were originally spread by some I2 peoples who might have been among bearers of Celtic culture.... perhaps Serbi or Serbs would be the part of them who lived in east Europe and has merged with other east European people such as Thracians, Dacians, Venedi and Sarmatians to give modern Slavs...

on other hand, number of shared words between Slavic/Serbian and Celtic is not really too big... its probably much less than needed to establishing any hypothesys about direct legacy based on linguistic...

[dublin]

Sparkey

My point is that population genetics is a fast-moving field, and conclusions drawn from as little data as we had back when Haplogroup R1b wasn't even called R1b yet are of no real value anymore.

All the data is from studies done in last two and a half years. I copied the excerpt from an article and that is the term they used.

I am not genetics expert, just thought it might be interesting to draw the attention of people here to this particular data.
What I think this data shows is that the oldest inhabitants of Ireland and Britain were of an Atlantic - North African stock. These are the gaelic speaking people. Then the Celts and other Euro – Asians came from or through Balkans. I believe that the mixing happened primarily in today’s British isles, where Gaels had their colonies in Wales and Scotland, and Galls had significant colonies in Ireland too. The gaelic people coming from Ireland and Gallic people coming from France had lived side by side for a long enough period to influence each other’s languages and cultures in general.
During the emigration to America, Australia... it was mostly poor gaelic speaking people who emigrated, especially during and after the potato famine. Not to mention over a million, mostly gaelic speaking, people who died during the famine in Ireland. All that must have surely altered the genetic print. It would be interesting to do a genetic analysis of gaelic Diaspora and see how it compares with the current Irish and the other Atlantean nations.
Today the majority of people in Britain have the Balkan Genes mostly because the Atlantean genetic stock has either died out or has emigrated and has been replaced by the more prosperous Balkan genetic stock.
The reason why the Atlantean genes survived in the west and north of Ireland is because these are very traditional, poor areas with almost no immigration, where there has been a lot of inbreeding in order to preserve the land ownership. Incidentally these are the last remaining gaelic speaking areas still left in Ireland. The situation is pretty much the same in other gaelic speaking areas in Wales and Scotland.

[dublin]

For more megalithic stuff from Morocco look for "stele de Maaziz", Louis Chatelain Archaeological Museum Rabat.

Also look for “Amazigh tabzimt”

Among Berber women in the Mahgreb there is also the widespread use of fibulae - pins - to fasten garments. These are similar to but more elaborate than the more commonly known Celtic penannular brooches. Called in Berber/Amazigh tabzimt, tizerzay, and tazersit and in Arabic bzima, kitfiyya, and khellala they go back at least to Antiquity.

[dublin]

how yes no

"tušta" is not equivalent of "Tuatha"

"tušta" is word that in Celtic means same as in Serbian -heap, abundance of something

*heap (?) | *tus-tV- (Gall., B), *teus-t- (W, B) | tušta (abundance of something.. e.g. on heap)

tuatha is PIE word... for group of people

I believe that you are missing the meaning here. Tušta means a very, very large group and when used in relation to people can mean a horde or a tribe or an army.

[sparkey]

All the data is from studies done in last two and a half years. I copied the excerpt from an article and that is the term they used.

The original article doesn't seem to have a copyright date, but it was quoted as early as 2002. That's the Stone Age of population genetics.

I am not genetics expert, just thought it might be interesting to draw the attention of people here to this particular data.

That's fine, although you'll find that we have a lot of population genetics hobbyists here, who will be quick to correct anything that's wrong or outdated.

What I think this data shows is that the oldest inhabitants of Ireland and Britain were of an Atlantic - North African stock. These are the gaelic speaking people. Then the Celts and other Euro – Asians came from or through Balkans.

How does this data show that at all? R1b is the most common haplogroup in most places all over Western Europe, and as I've pointed out, we've since learned that the variety of R1b (L11+) that's by far the most common in Western Europe is no older than the Neolithic. What haplogroup do you suppose "the Celts and other Euro - Asians" had that the Gaels didn't?

During the emigration to America, Australia... it was mostly poor gaelic speaking people who emigrated, especially during and after the potato famine. Not to mention over a million, mostly gaelic speaking, people who died during the famine in Ireland. All that must have surely altered the genetic print. It would be interesting to do a genetic analysis of gaelic Diaspora and see how it compares with the current Irish and the other Atlantean nations.

I agree with this. It's also interesting to note that "Germanic" haplogroups like R1b-U106, R1a, I1, and I2a2a tend to be a little more frequent in Ireland than in Wales. And since we know that Wales has had English influence over time, that seems to be evidence that Ireland has had similar influence on at least the same scale (older, pre-Modern Germanic influence in both places acknowledged).

Today the majority of people in Britain have the Balkan Genes mostly because the Atlantean genetic stock has either died out or has emigrated and has been replaced by the more prosperous Balkan genetic stock.
The reason why the Atlantean genes survived in the west and north of Ireland is because these are very traditional, poor areas with almost no immigration, where there has been a lot of inbreeding in order to preserve the land ownership. Incidentally these are the last remaining gaelic speaking areas still left in Ireland. The situation is pretty much the same in other gaelic speaking areas in Wales and Scotland.

You will find that there is a marker that Gaels have in abundance: R1b-L21. However, you'll also find that it's very closely related to the "Celt" markers (R1b-U152 and others) and only a little bit farther from the most common "West Germanic" marker (R1b-U106). So, Gaels are often distinguishable in the context of Ireland, but they are not pre-Neolithic, or separable from the others along an Atlantean/Balkan dichotomy.

R1b-L21 is also far from endangered... as the English also carry it in rather high frequency, and the Welsh, Cornish, Scots, and Bretons even more so. And these groups, along with the Irish, have spread it all over, lots of places. The fact that it has survived in an appropriate proportion to the amount of pre-Germanic autosomal input in the English demonstrates that it has no competitive disadvantage.

[dublin]

Sparkey

Thanks for your reply. As I said I am no expert in genetics. When you say:

You will find that there is a marker that Gaels have in abundance: R1b-L21. However, you'll also find that it's very closely related to the "Celt" markers (R1b-U152 and others) and only a little bit farther from the most common "West Germanic" marker (R1b-U106).

When you look at the map for R1b-L21 you can clearly see that it only exists in Atlantic region and is most prevalent in Ireland. Surly this supports the Atlantean stock hypothesis?
And when you say that “R1b-U152” is “Celtic” what do you mean? We don’t actually know who “Celts” were and if they even existed. Why are you calling “R1b-U152” Celtic?

[dublin]

A bit of linguistics:

Irish expression “tar aish” or “tareis” means “after” or “beyond” as in these two sentences:

Ta se deich noimead tar eis a naoi
PRONOUNCED: Taw shay deh no/made tar aish a knee
MEANING: It is ten minutes after nine

Slainte go saol agat,
Bean ar do mhian agat.
Leanbh gach blian agat,
is solas na bhflaitheas tareis antsail seo agat.

roughly pronounced:
Slancha ga sheil agat
Ban ir da vian agat
Toluv gan kis agat
Lanov gach blean agat
Iss solas na vlahas taraish antail sha agat.

"Health for life to you,
A wife of your choice to you,
Land without rent to you,
A child every year to you,
And the light of heaven after this world for you."

Near Belgrade there are two villages, Železnik and Vranic, which both have parts called “taraiš” pronounced “taraish” situated after or beyond the village boundaries. These villages are long and narrow situated on top of wavy hills. Zeleznik means “iron town” or “iron place” or “iron works” or “smelting plant”. In medieval chronicles the place is described as once being the major iron and silver processing center. Roman sarcophagus belonging to a Decurion from second century was found near the village. This means that Zeleznik was important enough to have a military garrison stationed in it. And it has a "Celtic" place name.

Interesting I believe

[sparkey]

When you look at the map for R1b-L21 you can clearly see that it only exists in Atlantic region and is most prevalent in Ireland. Surly this supports the Atlantean stock hypothesis?

I think it does, to a point. Specifically, it's too young to put it in a pre-Neolithic context, so we're looking at something more like a Bronze Age spread, or late Neolithic/Copper Age at the earliest. This is good evidence that the Gaels predate the theorized Halstatt/La Tene expansions, but not by as much as you seem to be implying. Also, since R1b-L21 is so close to other forms of European R1b, we have to assume that if the rest of European R1b passed through the Balkans at one point, so did the ancestors of R1b-L21. That's why we can't have an Atlantean/Balkan dichotamy (but we can entertain a certain "Atlantean" theory for the Gaels... although it's far from a certainty).

And when you say that “R1b-U152” is “Celtic” what do you mean? We don’t actually know who “Celts” were and if they even existed. Why are you calling “R1b-U152” Celtic?

We don't know if the Celts existed? I don't understand. The Gauls were certainly Celts, even in the most strict definition of the term. Anyway, I was thinking of the Alpine Celts, who seem to have had R1b-U152 as their most frequent marker (although Romans also had a lot of R1b-U152... which makes it difficult to distinguish between Alpine Celtic and Roman influence in different places. We've talked about this a lot here).

[zanipolo]

We don't know if the Celts existed? I don't understand. The Gauls were certainly Celts, even in the most strict definition of the term. Anyway, I was thinking of the Alpine Celts, who seem to have had R1b-U152 as their most frequent marker (although Romans also had a lot of R1b-U152... which makes it difficult to distinguish between Alpine Celtic and Roman influence in different places. We've talked about this a lot here).

It all depends on if you believe the celts where a cultural identity or purely only a linguistic identity.

Not all gauls would be celts though, the southern ones of france where ligures-celts , IIRC from montpellier to northwest Italy.

If what I read in the book Noricum is correct and that states the "creation " of the celts was east of alsace - basically the french german border , then we have another story in that they did travel easterly , but linguistically they also went west

[Alban]

Oh my GODAnother Slav trying at beeing non-slav.Serbs and Celts?- I think there is a confusion of terms. Maybe you meant the relation between Serbs and Irish. Or better said, since we are talking about pre-roman era the connection between Slavs and Celts? Sure it might have been one (if you insist), but definitely it was not in Balkan. Somewhere around Urals maybe

[how yes no 3]

Oh my GODAnother Slav trying at beeing non-slav.Serbs and Celts?- I think there is a confusion of terms. Maybe you meant the relation between Serbs and Irish. Or better said, since we are talking about pre-roman era the connection between Slavs and Celts? Sure it might have been one (if you insist), but definitely it was not in Balkan. Somewhere around Urals maybe

i think that part of Celts were integrated in proto-Slavs and that that event might be marked in genetics with addition of I2a-din to Balto-Slavic and Scytho-Sarmatian R1a (we know that Balts whose language is much closer than Slavic to original Balto-Slavic are dominantly R1a people, and ancient DNA indicates that Scythians were R1a as well, while we also know that Sarmatians were offshot of Scythians alledgly comming from part of them merging with Amazones woman...hence Sarmatians were likely R1a as well...thus it is likely that I2a-din was originally not Scythian, nor Balto-Slav nor Sarmatian) .

that merging might have happened in Ukraine in Galicia (Galicia is hotspot of I2a-Din north and is area whose name is clearly associated with Celts or Gaels, same as Galatia in Asia minor is).. alternatively, we can suppose that perhaps a part of Scordisci was migrating north after being pushed out from Serbia by expanding Roman empire....

in fact, those two scenarios might be single scenario as Russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs originally inhabiting Danube area of Hungary and Bulgaria
(at the times Russian primary chronicle was written down Hungary bordered Bulgaria on Danube and whole that Danube basin is known to have been area of Scordisci /Serdi prior to expansion of Roman empire)
and among them Serbs, Croats and Carantines (that is the ancestors of south Slavs
and we know that south Slavs are main carriers of I2a-din)
who moved to north due to expansion of Vlakhs (Roman empire)...

Russian primary chronicle calls them Danubian Slavs, but it is questionable whether those people actually were Slavic language speakers before migrating to north...

in any case, there is no reason to speak of merging taking place in Balkans, and certainly not in south Balkans... but likely somewhere in north Carpathians.... however I2a-din might have arrived there from northern Balkans....

off course this is all just a hypothesis...

regarding Illyrians, they were in my opinion dominantly E-V13 as this haplogroup shows high diversity (albeit low frequency) in Dalmatia.... but they or some of them could have been I2a-Din carriers as well since in Greek mythology Celtus, Galas and Illyrus are brothers... in fact, it is also possible but not likely that E-V13 is not related to Illyrians but only related to hellenic people and Dardanians (Dardanians being newcomers to illyro-thracian part of Balkan from Asia minor where E-V13 is strong).. Dardani would be likely origin of tribal name Albanians as in medieval times Albanians go under name Arbani (in Serbia) and Arvanites (in Greece)

[how yes no 3]

how yes no



I believe that you are missing the meaning here. Tušta means a very, very large group and when used in relation to people can mean a horde or a tribe or an army.

sure, but "Tuatha" and "tušta" do not really sound as related words...

[Endri]

sure, but "Tuatha" and "tušta" do not really sound as related words...

Ok, just cause two words are similar doesn't prove anything at all. Similar words among languages, even unrelated to each other are always found but if you really want to know, i guess Serbian as every language has it's own set of rules on how the words evolved. Apply those rules to that word "tushta" and the Celtic or whatever language that is, to 'tuatha' and if at the period you're speaking about you end up with the same word, from Serbian and that other language then you can say that those words are related.

Until then is simply speculation and not a very reliable one...

[zanipolo]

Ok, just cause two words are similar doesn't prove anything at all. Similar words among languages, even unrelated to each other are always found but if you really want to know, i guess Serbian as every language has it's own set of rules on how the words evolved. Apply those rules to that word "tushta" and the Celtic or whatever language that is, to 'tuatha' and if at the period you're speaking about you end up with the same word, from Serbian and that other language then you can say that those words are related.

Until then is simply speculation and not a very reliable one...

i tend to agree, even in Italy today ( and the past) an example would be
Mare in Italian means the Sea
Mare in venetian means Mother
same nation , same word , different meaning. Since venetian is older then italian , then one can only speculate that Mare for sea in italian was a combination of venetian Mar and french Mer. .......A typical way of Italian to express itself as being different.

[dublin]

Alban
My point is that Irish are erroneously called Celtic as are all the other R1b-L21 people. They are not Celts. They are Gaels. Who are the Gaels and where did they come from we don’t know at the moment. If we compare culture and language then I would say north Africa. But we need more north African genetic data.
Now who were Celts then? We don’t know. Were they the same as Gauls? Or were they the same as Serbs or Slavs or Germans? Were they a nation or a caste? Were all these peoples just hordes consisting of many related nations of which Celts were just a sub group? We just don’t know.
But what we know is that the “proto Celtic” dictionary as well as the living “Celtic” languages contain many Serbian and Slavic words. How is this possible and where and when did the language mix happen? The fact that there are so many same or similar words in proto Celtic and Serbian actually opens more questions than it answers.
By the way, how did they compile the proto Celtic dictionary? Where did they find texts that were written by Celts? If the dictionary was compiled from old texts from current Gaelic countries then it is a proto Gaelic dictionary.

[dublin]

Zanipolo

Gaelic word for “big” is Mór. (Pronounced as the English word more)
Gaelic word for “river” is Abhainn . (Pronounced “awon” similar to the English word award)
In Serbia there is a river Morava.
Morava = mor + ava = Mór Abhainn = big river Morava is the biggest river in the territory which was once inhabited by Tribali.
Today in eastern Serbia Vlasi (Vlahi) say “mare” for big. Celts called themselves “Valahi”…
In Ireland there is a river named The Avonmore River (Irish: Abhainn Mór, meaning "big river")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Avonmore
It is interesting that Mór Abhainn is grammatically incorrect in modern Gaelic languages. It should be Abhainn Mór. But there is an example of the same grammatical incorrectness in Ireland.
Dublin = dub linn = dubh linn = deep pool. In modern Irish the word dubh means black, but in proto Celtic it means deep. The Serbian word for deep is dubok. Word for depth is dubina. Dublin was the name of a Viking settlement, and is grammatically incorrect in Irish, the correct being linn dubh.
All of this is very interesting.

[Endri]

Zanipolo

Gaelic word for “big” is Mór. (Pronounced as the English word more)
Gaelic word for “big” is Abhainn . (Pronounced “awon” similar to the English word award)
In Serbia there is a river Morava.
Morava = mor + ava = Mór Abhainn = big river Morava is the biggest river in the territory which was once inhabited by Tribali.
Today in eastern Serbia Vlasi (Vlahi) say “mare” for big. Celts called themselves “Valahi”…
In Ireland there is a river named The Avonmore River (Irish: Abhainn Mór, meaning "big river")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Avonmore
It is interesting that Mór Abhainn is grammatically incorrect in modern Gaelic languages. It should be Abhainn Mór. But there is an example of the same grammatical incorrectness in Ireland.
Dublin = dub linn = dubh linn = deep pool. In modern Irish the word dubh means black, but in proto Celtic it means deep. The Serbian word for deep is dubok. Word for depth is dubina. Dublin was the name of a Viking settlement, and is grammatically incorrect in Irish, the correct being linn dubh.
All of this is very interesting.

1) A river etymology doesn't prove anything rather than Morava got named by the Celts during their invasion in the Balkans since river, mountain names tend to stick and stay relatively unchanged during time...

2) Take those Gaelic/Celtic words, from the time period it's being discussed, apply the Serbian language rules, will you end up with the modern words? I doubt...

It's like for example that: In albanian the name of the greek godes Aphrodite is Afërdita. "Afër" means close/near and "dita" means "day" thus Aphrodite comes from Albanian meaning "near day" or smth like that???? I doubt...

Or Hera from Albanian "era" meaning "wind" and a bunch more of false etymologies...

As i said only cause words seems similar does not mean that those words are related, unless you can either prove one is a loan of the other word or they both come from the same root...

3) Those "Vlahi" you're saying are probably the Vlach community in Serbia. They speak a Romance language whose closest language is Romanian. "Mare" in this case is probably from Latin "magna" which ultimately comes from PIE magh* or smth like that.

Compare it to Albanian "i/e madh",Greek "mega", Irish "mor" and Armenian "mets" further more, modern day Romanian word for big is "mare"...

PS: i/e in Albanian are adjective preposition, placed in-front of a certain type of Albanian adjectives, so is unrelated to the word (just in case you might have said that they don't look the same lol)

[MOESAN]

i tend to agree, even in Italy today ( and the past) an example would be
Mare in Italian means the Sea
Mare in venetian means Mother
same nation , same word , different meaning. Since venetian is older then italian , then one can only speculate that Mare for sea in italian was a combination of venetian Mar and french Mer. .......A typical way of Italian to express itself as being different.

I hope you are making a joke here concerning 'mare' , 'mer', mar' (& 'madre') ?!?