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Thread: Celtic - Serbian parallels

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    Celtic - Serbian parallels



    reason I start this thread is idea that Celtic or celticized tribes of Scordisci/Serdi that lived along Danube in what is now Serbia might have been former tribal identity of Serbs... also I relate both proto-Serbs and proto-Celts to peoples known as Cimmerians and Serians... Welsh people are often considered to be Cimmerians in origin...


    there are other sources that dealt with linguistic and cultural similarities between Celtic particulary Welsh people and Serbs...
    e.g I have read a magazine story about Ranka Kuic woman of Serb origin who worked as literature professor at an University in UK wrote a book called "Red and White:Serbian-Keltic parallels" ...
    besides shared vocabulary, she finds identical motives in epic poetry of old welsh poems and in serbian epic songs (e.g. motive of Cymry choosing freedom and kingdom of heaven before battle with English that cannot be win due to being outnumbered is identical to Serb leader choosing for kingdom of heaven before battle with Turks on Kosovo...both battles are precedded with description of dinner in which knights swear to loyality to the leader... there is fairy named Ravijojla in mythologies of both....there is mountain Tara, river Bojana..... Ranka kuic claims that many old Celtic words have counterparts in serbian language...

    so, I wanted to put that on test by looking at some vocabulary of Celtic languages...

    I will use the list of proto-Celtic words from the following site
    http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Doc...icWordlist.pdf

    and try to see whether there are matches in Serbian

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    well, let's first do first page of vocabulary

    obvious cogjnates

    english | proto-celtic | serbian
    (*curly) hair | *gourjo- | kovrdzava/grgurava (curly) kosa (hair)
    (be) quiet | *tauso- | tiho (quiet), tišina (silence)
    (night)mare | *moro- | mora
    (sea-)harbour | *kaφno- | kopno (coast e.g. when looked from see)
    (who/what)soever | *kʷinnako- (??) | ionako
    *heap (?) | *tus-tV- (Gall., B), *teus-t- (W, B) | tušta (abundance of something.. e.g. on heap)
    story | kastu | kazati (to tell)

    less obvious cognjates
    *battle-leader |*ioudo-walo- | ioudo -> ljudi = people, thus leader of people not of battle
    (hind)quarter (?) | *kʷetr-anī(-) (?) | obviously derived from number 4 - četiri, četvrt (quarter)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Regarding the term "Cimmerians" and "Cymru" (Wales) are rather unrelated. That does NOT mean that a lot of people in the past did really think the terms were related.

    "Cymru" is a contraction from the term "Combrogi" (literally something like "together-homelanders", perhaps more accurately "compatriots"). For comparison:

    - the Galatian personal name "Brogitarus"
    - the Gaulish tribal name "Allobrogi"
    - Breton "Bro" ("country", "borough")
    - Welsh "Bro" ("area", "district")

    Conversely, during classical Antiquity, authors (Strabo mentions this in his Geography, book 7, chapter 2.2 - though it should be noted that he did not agree with that view, seemingly) considered the Cimmerians and the Cimbri to be the same. A classical case of confusion, I suppose.

    Now, the Scordisci were obviously unrelated with the Cimmerians, instead they stemmed from the Celtic incursion into the Pannonian Basin that culiminated in an invasion of the Balkans/Greece and the eventual establishment of the Kingdom of Galatia in Anatolia. The name makes most sense as "Scordus" (name of the Šar mountain at the modern Kosovo/Macedonian border) plus tribal suffix "-isci" (compare "Eravisci", "Taurisci").

    Otherwise, regarding any connection between the Serbians and the Scordisci (it should be added, the Scordisci were actually the founders of Belgrade, Serbia's modern capital city, under the name Singidunum), what is obviously problematic here is that the Scordisci were conquered by Rome in the late 2nd century BC, and that Slavic tribes didn't arrive in the area until the wake of the Migrations Period (late 6th century AD). That's a fairly long time, but not too long for oral traditions to not have been preserved.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    well, let's first do first page of vocabulary

    obvious cogjnates

    english | proto-celtic | serbian
    (*curly) hair | *gourjo- | kovrdzava/grgurava (curly) kosa (hair)
    (be) quiet | *tauso- | tiho (quiet), tišina (silence)
    (night)mare | *moro- | mora
    (sea-)harbour | *kaφno- | kopno (coast e.g. when looked from see)
    (who/what)soever | *kʷinnako- (??) | ionako
    *heap (?) | *tus-tV- (Gall., B), *teus-t- (W, B) | tušta (abundance of something.. e.g. on heap)
    story | kastu | kazati (to tell)

    less obvious cognjates
    *battle-leader |*ioudo-walo- | ioudo -> ljudi = people, thus leader of people not of battle
    (hind)quarter (?) | *kʷetr-anī(-) (?) | obviously derived from number 4 - četiri, četvrt (quarter)
    Sorry, but most of those are connections that are clearly connected via common Proto-Indo-European origin, not specifically Celtic borrowings into South Slavic (or even just Serbian).

    For instance, cognates of "Moro-" clearly also exist in Germanic (as night-"mare") and Italic. It's the same with the word "four", which is prettymuch found in all major branches of Indo-European.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    second page -not so much cogjates... or difficult to find them...

    english | proto-Celtic | serbian
    a third | *trijano- (?) | trećina

    less obvious
    accuse | *kom-soud-e/o- (?) | sud = court, judgement "kome sude" = the one who is accused

    acorn (fruit of oak tree) | *messu | meso (meat) as eatable inner part of usually animals, but sometimes used for fruits as well...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry, but most of those are connections that are clearly connected via common Proto-Indo-European origin, not specifically Celtic borrowings into South Slavic (or even just Serbian).

    For instance, cognates of "Moro-" clearly also exist in Germanic (as night-"mare") and Italic. It's the same with the word "four", which is prettymuch found in all major branches of Indo-European.
    sure, some words are PIE related... but obviously not all...
    e.g. *tauso, *tust, *kaφno, *gourjo-, *kʷinnako-

    in conclusion, so far much more cogjates do not come from PIE than the ones that do come (2?)
    does that tell you something?

    in fact, you can see that word for curly hair *gourjo- is in fact derived from word "gora" (hill) in Slavic languages...
    thus, curly hair is logically described as hilly...

    I compare to Serbian because I do not speak other Slavic languages, but many cognjates are probably existing also in other Slavic languages (would not bet on *tust, and *kʷinnako- though)

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    page 3

    obvious cognjates

    english | proto-celtic | serbian


    air | *weto | vetar (wind)
    agriculture | *aro | orati (to plow), oranje (plow as verb and noun)
    ahead | *(?) φrākoair | preko (across)
    all, every | *kʷākʷo | svako


    less obvious

    allow | *dam-je/o- | dam je ('I give her', as in allowing e.g. marriage of daughter)
    against | *writ(i) | protiv
    although | *kei, *ki (?) | iako

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    page 4

    english | proto-celtic | serbian


    anger | *wi-s- (??) | bes (anger)
    anger | *lūto | ljuto (angry)
    ant | *morwi- | mrav

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    sure, some words are PIE related... but obviously not all...
    e.g. *tauso, *tust, *kaφno, *gourjo-, *kʷinnako-

    in conclusion, so far much more cogjates do not come from PIE than the ones that do come (2?)
    does that tell you something?

    in fact, you can see that word for curly hair *gourjo- is in fact derived from word "gora" (hill) in Slavic languages...
    thus, curly hair is logically described as hilly...

    I compare to Serbian because I do not speak other Slavic languages, but many cognjates are probably existing also in other Slavic languages (would not bet on *tust, and *kʷinnako- though)
    Sorry, nope. I took two exsamples that sparked my notice. There's a lot more, and I would not be surprised if all of these words were traced to be via a common PIE connection.

    For example:
    - "Tri-" as a number word has clearly cognates basically in all other branches of IE.
    - "Kwakwo" clearly has cognate in Latin.

    It would be critical to verify this via other branches of Slavic, as well as outgroups (Italic languages - ie Latin, other Slavic languages, as well as Baltic as an outgroup. This way, you have a severe observational bias there because you just look at Proto-Celtic and Serbian. Besides, it makes absolutely no sense for words to be borrowings from (modern) Serbian into Proto-Celtic. That is impossible, unless you are considering the possibility time-travelling Serbians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry, nope. I took two exsamples that sparked my notice. There's a lot more, and I would not be surprised if all of these words were traced to be via a common PIE connection.
    For example:
    - "Tri-" as a number word has clearly cognates basically in all other branches of IE.
    - "Kwakwo" clearly has cognate in Latin.
    you took 2 PIE examples from much more non-PIE examples...
    in total you recognized 4 out of 22 words as PIE... don't you think it is too little to be able to deny cognjates other than PIE?

    I would say you are extremely biased....


    what about words for plow, ant, air (wind), angry....?
    how can they be Slavic-alike and have nothing in common with germanic and italic if there was never some kind of Celtic - Slavic contact...

    I see I2 Cimmerians as source of these common words....

    according to Bavarian geographer state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs origin from it... according to Seneca Serians lived in Europe where they dared to cross frozen Danube and where they ruled over Scythians, they lived unguarded among Sarmatians in Caspian highlands, they ruled over Red sea, and they lived in Serica which is south Siberia/northwest China where they produced silk....Serica is also an arc from India to china matching spread of Pastun Sarbans...

    [369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
    Seneca - Thyestes
    27. i.e. the frozen surface.
    28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.
    http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html


    now, from Seneca's statement we see that these Serians (whom following the statement of Bavarian geographer we can identify as proto-Slavs or proto-Serbs) were not Scythians (as they rulled over Scythians in europe), nor Sarmatians (as they lived unguarded from Sarmatians in Caspian highlands)...we know that besides Scythians and Sarmatians only other big historical tribe spreading far in europe and Asia are Cimmerians... we know that Cimmerians are thought to settled Cappadocia and indeed Cappadocians were named white Syrians in antic sources (see Strabo) and there is I2a (marker of south Slavs and of early slavs) island in Cappadocia.... we know that Cymry and Cimbri might also origin from Cimmerians... we know that Thraco-Cimmerian findings match spread of I2a fairly well...(also in Asia minor where island of I2a exist in cappadocia which is where Cimmerians are thought to have settled.) we also know that Scordisci lived around Danube... and that Thracian version of their name is Serdi...

    It would be critical to verify this via other branches of Slavic, as well as outgroups (Italic languages - ie Latin, other Slavic languages, as well as Baltic as an outgroup.
    This way, you have a severe observational bias there because you just look at Proto-Celtic and Serbian.
    nope, I rely on you to identify PIE words...
    so far you discovered 4 PIE words out of 22 cognjates...
    and based on that you claim that most (??? hm, think you ought to redo kindergarten level of math) of the words are probably PIE

    Besides, it makes absolutely no sense for words to be borrowings from (modern) Serbian into Proto-Celtic. That is impossible, unless you are considering the possibility time-travelling Serbians.
    if that is the game you play - twisting/inventing what others claim and than laughing it out...
    than your claim of Germans being invented nation that originates from mix of proto-Slavs and proto-Celts conquered by Swedes, might be correct...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Regarding the term "Cimmerians" and "Cymru" (Wales) are rather unrelated. That does NOT mean that a lot of people in the past did really think the terms were related.

    ..."Cymru" is a contraction from the term "Combrogi" (literally something like "together-homelanders", perhaps more accurately "compatriots").
    don't try to sell me someone's very vague assumption as absolute truth...

    Combrogi and Cymry are clearly different words...


    Conversely, during classical Antiquity, authors (Strabo mentions this in his Geography, book 7, chapter 2.2 - though it should be noted that he did not agree with that view, seemingly) considered the Cimmerians and the Cimbri to be the same. A classical case of confusion, I suppose.
    don't you think that maybe Strabo knew something you do not know?... he lived at times or close to times when that happened...you live almost 2000 years later...

    Now, the Scordisci were obviously unrelated with the Cimmerians, instead they stemmed from the Celtic incursion into the Pannonian Basin that culiminated in an invasion of the Balkans/Greece and the eventual establishment of the Kingdom of Galatia in Anatolia.
    The name makes most sense as "Scordus" (name of the Šar mountain at the modern Kosovo/Macedonian border) plus tribal suffix "-isci" (compare "Eravisci", "Taurisci").
    it is other way around, mountain was named after them...
    btw. name of mountain is Scordus in ancient Greek, but "Šar-planina" in Serbian and "Malet e Sharrit" in Albanian, "Shar Dagh" in turkish) ...
    which again shows that Scordisci is greek miswriting of celticized version of tribal name Serians

    town Serdica is today Sofia
    Serians were also written as Serres in antic sources...
    ancient Greek authors also speak of long living Serians who dwell upon mount Athos which is nearby

    Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

    there is even area, placename in north Greece likely derived from the tribal name of Serians in ancient times....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serres

    I dare to guess that Serians = Scordisci... I think that in Europe they were just moving along Danube...when pushed on one side they would go along Danube to other side...

    and we have Russian primary chronicle that places early Slavs prior to Roman empire expanding in area around Danube thus where Scordisci lived... and we have Bavaria geographer who clearly state origin of Slavs is from large state of Zeruiani (clearly same tribal name as Serians)

    point is that there is no reason to suppose that scenario I explained above is impossible....
    fair pool of shared words between Slavic and Celtic languages and traditions does indicate a contact and mutual influence.... perhaps not as large contact as both had with Germanic people, but still large enough to leave imprint in vocabularies not shared with other PIE derived languages.... such a contact must have taken place on some geographical location... I suggest it happened in Danubian area where I believe some tribes had mixed Celtic-Slavic material culture...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    don't try to sell me someone's very vague assumption as absolute truth...

    Combrogi and Cymry are clearly different words...
    It's not a "vague assumption". They're not different word, the former is what the word would have been like in classical Antiquity, the latter is modern Welsh. There's also the related words "Cumberland" (and "Cumbria"), which refer to northwestern England, which was also Brythonic-speaking well into the Medieval Ages.

    don't you think that maybe Strabo knew something you do not know?... he lived at times or close to times when that happened...you live almost 2000 years later...
    Well, look it up and read the paragraph. It's clear that he said they're unrelated.

    Besides, it should be added at the term "Cymru" for the region of Wales was unknown in Antiquity. The main tribes in that area were the Ordovices and the Silures.

    it is other way around, mountain was named after them...
    btw. name of mountain is Scordus in ancient Greek, but "Šar-planina" in Serbian and "Malet e Sharrit" in Albanian, "Shar Dagh" in turkish) ...
    which again shows that Scordisci is greek miswriting of celticized version of tribal name Serians
    How come then that the tribal name "Scordisci" is also refered to in that form in Latin sources? How plausible is it for the Romans to keep a Greek misspelling if they first-hand subjugated the Scordisci? Not very.

    town Serdica is today Sofia
    ancient Greek authors also speak of long living Serians who dwell upon mount Olimpus which is just somewhat further south... there is even area, placename in Greece derived from the tribal name of Serians.... I dare to guess that Serians = Scordisci...
    and we have Russian primary chronicle that places early Slavs prior to Roman empire expanding in area around Danube thus where Scordisci lived... and we have Bavaria geographer who clearly state origin of Slavs is from large state of Zeruiani (clearly same tribal name as Serians)
    I like to point out - to the nth time at that - that there is no evidence for Slavic languages in the Danube area in Antiquity.

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    english | proto-Celtic | serbian (slavic)

    assemble | *kom-datl-āje/o | komad (piece), komadati (disassemble)
    aunt |*mātṛkʷā | mater (mother), matorka (older lady in slang)
    ball | *glāwo- (?) | glava (head)
    be dark | (*teme-) | taman (dark)
    bitter | *gorsti- (?) | gorki
    blame | *karjā | karati
    blame | *kʷin-u- (?) | kinjiti
    blood | *kruwos- (?) | krv
    bloody | (*krewa-) | krvav
    blunt, short | *mutt | mutav (blunt, mute)
    boil | *brenn(j)e/o- (?) | vrenje
    bow | (*le(n)k- (?)) | luk


    not so obvious cogjates
    being | buti | biti (to be), budi (you be)
    beetle | *swīlā- (?) | svila (silk)
    bed | *leg-jo, *legos | lego ja ( I have lay down to sleep)
    benefit |*su-koro | korist
    before | *φar(a) | pre
    belt | *krisso | kaiš

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    It's not a "vague assumption". They're not different word, the former is what the word would have been like in classical Antiquity, the latter is modern Welsh. There's also the related words "Cumberland" (and "Cumbria"), which refer to northwestern England, which was also Brythonic-speaking well into the Medieval Ages.
    it is assumption...how vague is it... well, even a great assumption from a linguist point of view may still be based on coincidence and completely incorrect ...


    Well, look it up and read the paragraph. It's clear that he said they're unrelated.
    ok, I misunderstood what you are trying to say....

    Besides, it should be added at the term "Cymru" for the region of Wales was unknown in Antiquity. The main tribes in that area were the Ordovices and the Silures.
    dunno...that area has lot of type of haplogroup E that origins from Balkan...
    S.Byrd argued that it came during Roman empire with thracian soldiers who supposedly settled the area...... I think that one of those tribes might have come from Balkan before...
    from that point of view I am curious about albanian comparison with the proto-Celtic words....

    a very wild guess, Ordovices might be of same origin as Scordisci...
    Scordisci = Sordi + celtic ending
    Ordovices = (S)ordi + slavic ending (as in Dregovichs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dregovichs)

    but that would imply that Ordovices are also source of Britain I2a2 or R1a, however I do not see UK I2a2 or R1a localization pattern that fit into that... so I do not think it is correct assumption.... in fact, Cymry is part with least R1a in UK, and I2a2 is rare and widely dispersed but also kind of lacking in Wales...

    however, link between proto-Celtic and serbian/slavic doesnot have to go via Cymry...


    How come then that the tribal name "Scordisci" is also refered to in that form in Latin sources? How plausible is it for the Romans to keep a Greek misspelling if they first-hand subjugated the Scordisci? Not very.
    Greeks never subjugated Scordisci... that is complete non-sense...

    actually, mispelling was probably Roman, as Serres area in Greece corresponding to mention of long living Serians/Serres is not misspelled... and as Romans are the ones who mispelled Slaveni as Sclaveni...

    I like to point out - to the nth time at that - that there is no evidence for Slavic languages in the Danube area in Antiquity.
    there is no eveidence of Slavic languages anywhere in Antiquity...
    that doesnot mean they did not exist in some form...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    it is assumption...how vague is it... well, even a great assumption from a linguist point of view may still be based on coincidence and completely incorrect ...
    Well, both the Welsh and the medieval Cumbrians are (in the latter case, were) Brythonic-speaking peoples.

    ok, I misunderstood what you are trying to say....
    Well, if you have a copy of Strabo's geography, or access to one online, you can read it there, I mentioned the chapter above.

    dunno...that area has lot of type of haplogroup E that origins from Balkan...
    S.Byrd argued that it came during Roman empire with thracian soldiers who supposedly settled the area...... I think that one of those tribes might have come from Balkan before...
    from that point of view I am curious about albanian comparison with the proto-Celtic words....
    There are similarities/shares between Albanian and Celtic, however these must be old connections via PIE, because the cognates obey to Albanian/Celtic sound laws respectively.

    In Proto-Celtic, PIE *ǵh yields "g", whereas in Albanian it yields variably dh or d. For example, compare:

    Gaulish "Giamos" vs. Albanian "Dhimër" (both mean winter)

    a very wild guess, Ordovices might be of same origin as Scordisci...
    Scordisci = Sordi + celtic ending
    Ordovices = (S)ordi + slavic ending (as in Dregovichs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dregovichs)
    Nope. The etymology of "Ordovici" is clearly Celtic:
    - Old Irish "Ordd", Scots Gaelic "Òrd" (both mean "hammer")
    - "-vici" can be translated very roughly as "Fighters" or "Fierce ones"
    - cognate exists in Old Irish as "Fích" ("enmity", "feud")
    - there are also Gaulish tribal names with similar names ("Brannovici", "Eburovici", "Lemovici").

    In fact, you can also check out the Proto-Celtic dictionary you provided in that link, it has entries on "Ordo-" (hammer) and "wik-" (to fight).

    however, link between proto-Celtic and serbian/slavic doesnot have to go via Cymry...
    Theoretically, Serbian (or, more broadly, South Slavic) might have inherited Celtic-terms via the local Vulgar Latin spoken on the Balkans. After all, the Scordisci were certainly gradually latinized after their subjugation.

    This is theoretically possible, but this would require a much closer scrutiny (I admit that I only glossed superficially through your lists).

    Greeks never subjugated Scordisci... that is complete non-sense...
    Yes, I also meant the Romans.

    actually, mispelling was probably Roman, as Serres area in Greece corresponding to mention of long living Serians/Serres is not misspelled... and as Romans are the ones who mispelled Slaveni as Sclaveni...


    there is no eveidence of Slavic languages anywhere in Antiquity...
    that doesnot mean they did not exist in some form...
    It does not make that much sense to me to assume them in areas in which you have mostly Celtic place names in Antiquity.

    Well, I did find two possible links (both in European Sarmatia), actually, but either are very uncertain:

    - the "Melanchlaeni" ("black cloaks"). The problem is that their ethnicity could be anything (since the name is obviously a Greek exonym) because information on them is so vague.

    - far less ambiguous, the "Savari" mentioned by Ptolemy might be the Severians.

    - amongst the other tribes which are not overtly Baltic (Galindae), Germanic (Goths, Bastarnae) or Iranic (Rhoxolani) that are mentioned by Ptolemy in European Sarmatia, any number might be early Slavic, but thus far I haven't found convincing etymologies or names that bear reminiscience with later Slavic names.

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    english | proto-Celtic | lithuanian | serbian (slavic)

    ball | *glāwo- (?) | galva| glava (head)
    be dark | (*teme-) | tamsa| taman (dark)
    bitter | *gorsti- (?) | kartus| gorki
    blame | *kʷin-u- (?) |kaltė| kinjiti
    blood | *kruwos- (?) | kraujas| krv
    bloody | (*krewa-) |kruvinas| krvav
    bow | (*le(n)k- (?)) |lankas| luk


    being | buti | būti| biti (to be), budi (you be)

    (*curly) hair | *gourjo- | gauruotas| kovrdzava/grgurava (curly) kosa (hair)
    (be) quiet | *tauso- | tyla| tiho (quiet), tišina (silence)

    I added some Lith. words that I could recognise ...

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    breathe (?) | (*dū-) | duh (ghost), dah (breath), disati (breathe), duvati (to blow)
    bridge | *brīwā- (?) | brvno (body of tree used as a improvised bridge)
    bright | *belo-, beleno- (?) | belo (white)
    brother | *brātīr | brat - PIE*
    brow | *bruwi- (?) | obrva - PIE*
    burn | *teφ- | topiti (melt)
    buttocks | *getto- (*gesdo- ??) | guza
    by | *φari | pored (by, next to)
    car | *kʷol-ō | kola - possibly derived from old words for wagon
    care | *maro- (??) | mariti
    carpenter's tool | *kantairV- (??) | kantar (weighing tool - scale)
    circle | *kuro- (?) | krug
    cleft | *bulko-, -ā | pukotina
    clothes | *wīs-kā- | veš < PIE *wēs-kā
    cloak | *tonakā- (?) | tunika
    coal | *goglo | ugalj
    cough | *kʷasto | kašalj
    counter |*φrit- | protiv
    ( "counter-strike" - *φrit-gʷani- , and "counter-swear" - *writ-tung-e)
    cow | *bou | vo (ox)
    cuckoo | *kouko-, kukā | kukavica - obviosuly based on sound bird produces
    cultivated (*ploughed) land | *φolkā | polje (field)
    curly | *krikso| krivo (not straight)
    danger,illness | *gustu | gusto (dense) - used also for difficult situations such as danger, tough illness
    dark | *temeno | tama(darkness) , tamno (dark)
    daughter | *merkā | ćerka



    less obvious:
    buds | *bakl- (??) | baklja (torch)
    build | *dema- | temelj (foundation of buidling)
    chin,cheek | *groudos | grudi (breast - also in males) - common point - part of body that is sticking out...
    cloud | *neglo- (??) | magla (fog)
    cream | *soimeno- (?) | seme(no) (seed)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    english | proto-Celtic | lithuanian | serbian (slavic)

    ball | *glāwo- (?) | galva| glava (head)
    be dark | (*teme-) | tamsa| taman (dark)
    bitter | *gorsti- (?) | kartus| gorki
    blame | *kʷin-u- (?) |kaltė| kinjiti
    blood | *kruwos- (?) | kraujas| krv
    bloody | (*krewa-) |kruvinas| krvav
    bow | (*le(n)k- (?)) |lankas| luk


    being | buti | būti| biti (to be), budi (you be)

    (*curly) hair | *gourjo- | gauruotas| kovrdzava/grgurava (curly) kosa (hair)
    (be) quiet | *tauso- | tyla| tiho (quiet), tišina (silence)

    I added some Lith. words that I could recognise ...
    great Dagne !!

    can you keep doing that and also please check proto-Celtic vocabulary for other shared words...
    I am curious whether Lithuanian has more or less shared words with proto-Celtic than Serbian/Slavic and what are the words that are shared... as they are probably from older times...

    be free in stating words with similar meaning or similar sounds...

    one of the key questions is whether these words are PIE or pre-PIE european words....
    PIE could have been spread by R1b, R1a or both... or by one of I haplogroups...
    we do know that R1b kind of replaced previous population of west Europe, which makes them good candidate for PIE carriers... R1a on other hand has nice continuum to Indo-Iranian areas which makes them another good candidate... in fact, there is clear nice correlation between R1b and kentum languages and R1a and satem languages...


    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Well, both the Welsh and the medieval Cumbrians are (in the latter case, were) Brythonic-speaking peoples.
    I am not denying that....
    but developments of nations and languages are weird sometimes....

    Well, if you have a copy of Strabo's geography, or access to one online, you can read it there, I mentioned the chapter above.
    I can search online for it as it is freely available, but I trust you...


    There are similarities/shares between Albanian and Celtic, however these must be old connections via PIE, because the cognates obey to Albanian/Celtic sound laws respectively.

    In Proto-Celtic, PIE *ǵh yields "g", whereas in Albanian it yields variably dh or d. For example, compare:

    Gaulish "Giamos" vs. Albanian "Dhimër" (both mean winter)
    in Slavic

    zima = winter


    Nope. The etymology of "Ordovici" is clearly Celtic:
    - Old Irish "Ordd", Scots Gaelic "Òrd" (both mean "hammer")
    - "-vici" can be translated very roughly as "Fighters" or "Fierce ones"
    - cognate exists in Old Irish as "Fích" ("enmity", "feud")
    - there are also Gaulish tribal names with similar names ("Brannovici", "Eburovici", "Lemovici").
    ok

    In fact, you can also check out the Proto-Celtic dictionary you provided in that link, it has entries on "Ordo-" (hammer) and "wik-" (to fight).
    I am still on letter "d"


    Theoretically, Serbian (or, more broadly, South Slavic) might have inherited Celtic-terms via the local Vulgar Latin spoken on the Balkans. After all, the Scordisci were certainly gradually latinized after their subjugation.
    that makes sense... but many of the words are not just Serbian, they exist in other Slavic languages...

    This is theoretically possible, but this would require a much closer scrutiny (I admit that I only glossed superficially through your lists).
    It does not make that much sense to me to assume them in areas in which you have mostly Celtic place names in Antiquity.
    well, in past there were also tribes with celtic elite or celticized...
    e.g. Illyrian Dalmatians are thought to be at some point Celticized..
    also for Scordisci some authors think they were not Celtic originally...



    Well, I did find two possible links (both in European Sarmatia), actually, but either are very uncertain: - the "Melanchlaeni" ("black cloaks"). The problem is that their ethnicity could be anything (since the name is obviously a Greek exonym) because information on them is so vague.

    - far less ambiguous, the "Savari" mentioned by Ptolemy might be the Severians.
    Severians are later one of east Slavic tribes... forefathers of part of north Russians...
    in fact Severians just means northeners
    as sever = north

    - amongst the other tribes which are not overtly Baltic (Galindae), Germanic (Goths, Bastarnae) or Iranic (Rhoxolani) that are mentioned by Ptolemy in European Sarmatia, any number might be early Slavic, but thus far I haven't found convincing etymologies or names that bear reminiscience with later Slavic names.
    there are Serbi/Serboi in Asian Sarmatia, north of Alans and next to Amazones
    but my point is that that was just a branch of proto-Serbs that match Seneca's Serians who live in Caspian highlands unguarded from Sarmatians, and who later were turkicized and became Sabir people (same location, similar tribal name) and today became Chuvash people (they have legend of partial origin from Sabir people and Dienekes project shows they have autosomal genetics closer to Slavic than to turkic)

    also Siraces (most hellenized of all Sarmatians) on Black sea shores are thought to be same as Serboi
    another link that that might be truth is a verse from medieval Montenegro high priest king poet Njegos who in a poem self-identify as Sirak in context of sad people left alone, without anyone to help.... in his times Montenegro was surrounded by Turkish teritories... in his time people of Montenegro were Serbs, in fact kind of elite Serbs who refused to be subjugated and continued fighting Turks never surrendering...his Serb self-identication is extremely clear from his poems that are very patriotic and very wise often.... people from Montenegro became separate nation only in 20th century due to communist's propaganda... even now most of them will tell their language is serbian, while their nation is montenegrin...

    anyway, my point is that proto-Serbs (proto-slavs) are Serians of Seneca.... because Zeruiani mentioned by Bavarian geographer as people whose state is so big that all Slavs come from it, is clearly same tribal name as Serians, and because I can see arc of Serians from China to India in traces of haplogroup I that in Afghanistan matches quite well spread of Pasthun Sarbans..





    Serians/Serres are in Europe mentioned in north of Greece, around Danube, rulling over scattered Scythians...

    my conclusion was that if Serians are not Scythians and not Sarmatians they can from historic tribes only be Cimmerians...Cimmerians are Gomer people and Gomer is forefather of Germanian peoples... but in Cappadocia Cimmerians settled, and Strabo later calls Cappadocians white Syrians (again Serians tribal name), and there is I2 island there... Thraco-Cimmerians in europe also roughly spread along Danube...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thraco-Cimmerian.png

    and so do later Scordisci...
    and so do early slavs according to russian primary chronicle...
    and so does the i2a2


    note that Thraco-Cimmerian findings are also present in part of Hallstat area...
    so there was probably some contact or even overlapping between Thraco-Cimmerians and Celts...

    so, Gomer might have been forefather of haplogroup I2 (I2b is clear mark of all Germanic tribes except Scandinavians, I2a1 is mark of Sardinians and possibly of Garamantes in north Africa, I2a2 is mark of Slavs especially south slavs) or even of haplogroup I (including Scandinavians) ... this also fits well with my haplogroup I tribal name pattern Swedes/Suebi/Srbi (Serbs)/Sardinians/Sarbans.... I am pretty sure Scordisci/Serdi fit there too but it is question whether they were I1, I2b, I2a1 or I2a2... I2a2 is dominant in Serbia but I am sure it came wirh slavic people as it is only common point in south Slavs and what separates them from surroundings, I1 is higher in Serbia than is surroundings but that could be due to Goths and later Gepids who settled there, I2a1 so far seems not to exist there... I2b1 not specially ellevated...

    so, if their tribal name is indeed part of haplogroup I pattern as i propose, Scordisci/Serdi are thus either I1 or I2a2 dominant...

    if Scordisci/Serdi were I1, I would expect even larger I1 component in Serbia as pre-Slavic people would be first I1 Scordisci, than I1(+I2b) Goths, than I1 (+I2b) Gepids... so I argue that Scordisci were I2a2 people.....

    but if they are I2a2 dominant they are likely same people as later Serbs, which means they retreated up the Danube to Bohemia after being subjugated by Romans... and returned down the Danube in 6th century as Serbs

    Veneti would descend from Ripath who is son of Gomer... thus also haplogroup I...so far I2a* we find only on two locations - one matches Adriatic Veneti, and other Britanny Veneti...we do not find correlation of Veneti tribal name with I1...so, if Riphat and Gomer were real people, this is clue that Riphat was I2*, and Gomer probably the same as his son...

    thus, I think I have lot of clues pointing in same direction....
    but relation to Celtic people is not clear to me...
    hence this thread...
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 13-06-11 at 23:58.

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    english | proto-Celtic |serbian (slavic)
    daughter | *genet(t)ā | žena (wife, woman) - Celtic word sounds to me as a demunitive for word woman
    day | *din | dan
    dead | *marwo | mrtvo
    dear | *dreuto- / *drouto-, *drūto | drago
    decay |*mrato | mreti (in process of dying)
    deceive | *lug | lagati (to lie)
    deception | *kloφni- | klopka (trap)
    deep | *dubno-, *dubni | duboko
    deer | *el-lant-ī- (?), *el-an-ī | jelen
    defecate | *kakk-āje/o | kaki(ti) (usually used for small children, babies)
    depraved | *mallo | malo (=little)
    depth | *dubno-tero | dubina
    detach |*skart-āje/o | škartirati (throw away, reject) - could be loan perhaps germanic
    dirt; anger | *brokkV- / *brukko-, -ā- (?) | bruka (emberassment - which is in fact a word for dirt event that cause anger)
    disgust | *gragni- (?) | grozno (disgusting), gadjenje (disgust), zgroziti se (to become disgusted)
    dog | *kwū, *kun | kuče, kuca (small dog), kuna (martel)
    door, gate | *dworestu- (?) | dvorište (garden), dveri (gate, door)
    double | *dwei-φlo | duplo
    dough | *taisto | testo
    dove | *kolombo- (or < Lat.?) | golub
    drink | *φib-e/o- | piće (drink), piti (to drink) - φ was so far always 'p'
    druid |*derwo-wid- (?) | drvo (tree) + vid (vision) - world was seen as a tree...druids were people able to see in the tree

    not so obvious:
    doctor | *lī(φ)agi- (??) | lekar
    dawn | *wāsri | zora
    dig | *kʷal-e/o | kal (mud, ground)
    ditch | klado | klada (log) - guess due to bugs bunny cartoons but I always imagine ditch behind a log...

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    But then I could be checking with Russian words. This way there may be even more matches. (Though I may not know all russian words in dialects and rarely used ones...) The word with "-" means I did not find a Russian match.


    english | proto-Celtic |russian| serbian (slavic)

    breathe (?) | (*dū-) | /duh |duh (ghost), dah (breath), diišat| disati (breathe), diišat( to breathe)| duvati (to blow)
    bridge | *brīwā- (?)| brevno| brvno (body of tree used as a improvised bridge)
    bright | *belo-, beleno- (?) | belii| belo (white)
    brother | *brātīr | brat| brat - PIE*
    brow | *bruwi- (?) | brovi| obrva - PIE*
    burn | *teφ- | topit (sink) | topiti (melt)
    - buttocks | *getto- (*gesdo- ??) | guza
    - by | *φari | pored (by, next to)
    - car | *kʷol-ō | kola - possibly derived from old words for wagon
    - care | *maro- (??) | mariti
    - carpenter's tool | *kantairV- (??) | kantar (weighing tool - scale)
    circle | *kuro- (?) |krug| krug
    -cleft | *bulko-, -ā | pukotina
    -clothes | *wīs-kā- | veš < PIE *wēs-kā
    cloak | *tonakā- (?) |tunika| tunika
    coal | *goglo | ugl| ugalj
    cough | *kʷasto | kasliat| kašalj
    counter |*φrit- | protiv| protiv
    ( "counter-strike" - *φrit-gʷani- , and "counter-swear" - *writ-tung-e)
    cow | *bou | bul| biik| vo (ox)
    cuckoo | *kouko-, kukā | kukuška| kukavica - obviosuly based on sound bird produces
    cultivated (*ploughed) land | *φolkā | pole| polje (field)
    curly | *krikso| krivoj| krivo (not straight)
    danger,illness | *gustu | gustoj| gustugusto (dense) - used also for difficult situations such as danger, tough illness
    dark | *temeno | tama(darkness) , temno| tamno (dark)
    daughter | *merkā | docurka (daugther in diminutive)| ćerka

    less obvious:
    buds | *bakl- (??) | fakel| baklja (torch)
    -build | *dema- | temelj (foundation of buidling)
    chin,cheek | *groudos | grudi| grudi (breast - also in males) - common point - part of body that is sticking out...
    cloud | *neglo- (??) | mgla| magla (fog)
    cream | *soimeno- (?) | semena|seme(no) (seed)
    daughter | *genet(t)ā | žena| žena (wife, woman) - Celtic word sounds to me as a demunitive for word woman
    day | *din | den| dan
    dead | *marwo | mertvii| mrtvo
    dear | *dreuto- / *drouto-, *drūto | dorogoi| drago
    decay |*mrato | umeret| mreti (in process of dying)
    deceive | *lug | lgat| lagati (to lie)
    -deception | *kloφni- | klopka (trap)
    deep | *dubno-, *dubni | gluboki| duboko
    deer | *el-lant-ī- (?), *el-an-ī | olen| jelen
    defecate | *kakk-āje/o | kakat| kaki(ti) (usually used for small children, babies)
    depraved | *mallo | malii| malo (=little)
    depth | *dubno-tero | glubina| dubina
    -detach |*skart-āje/o | škartirati (throw away, reject) - could be loan perhaps germanic
    -dirt; anger | *brokkV- / *brukko-, -ā- (?) | bruka (emberassment - which is in fact a word for dirt event that cause anger)
    disgust | *gragni- (?) | groznii (threatening) grozno (disgusting), gadjenje (disgust), zgroziti se (to become disgusted)
    -dog | *kwū, *kun | kuče, kuca (small dog), kuna (martel)
    door, gate | *dworestu- (?) | dvor| dvorište (garden), dver| dveri (gate, door)
    -double | *dwei-φlo | duplo
    dough | *taisto | testo| testo
    dove | *kolombo- (or < Lat.?) | golub| golub
    drink | *φib-e/o- | piće (drink), pit| piti (to drink) - φ was so far always 'p'
    druid |*derwo-wid- (?) | drvo | drevo (tree) + vid| vidit (vision|to see) - world was seen as a tree...druids were people able to see in the tree

    not so obvious:
    doctor | *lī(φ)agi- (??) | lekar| lekar
    dawn | *wāsri | zaria| zora
    - dig | *kʷal-e/o| kal (mud, ground)
    - ditch | klado | klada (log) - guess due to bugs bunny cartoons but I always imagine ditch behind a log...
    Last edited by Dagne; 14-06-11 at 09:22.

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    where is all this going? What are we trying to say ?

    Are we saying that the Thraco-celtic tribe the serdi where slavic

    or

    are we saying that the serbs enriched their vocabulary by introducing vast numbers of celtic words due to missing words ( this seems the true answer) in their own vocabulary. around 400plus AD

    The Serdi only existed between 300 - 100 BC, they where assimilated into thracian - roman culture

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    Dagne, thanks for comparison
    Zanipolo, this is thread about parallels in two languages, two cultures, two mythologies...
    if you are bothered with this thread go open thread about Albanian-Celtic parallels... should not be too difficult to recognize words that match in form and meaning in proto-Celtic vocabulary.... it would be interesting to compare whether shared words are the same, and to try to perhaps estimate roughly time of influences based on sets of shared words...

    let's continue....

    first correction

    english | celtic | serbian
    bed | *leg-jo, *legos | ležaj

    (previously I used verb to explain similarity, stupidly didnot remember obvious and quite used word)


    now, we can continue:

    english | celtic | serbian
    dry | krasto | krasta (dried blood on wound, scab, but in fact 'crust' would be proper word if english was more logical)
    duty, goal | *adilo | cilj - to recognise this one you need to pronounce it...
    dung | *kagVlo- (?) | kaljavo (dirty, muddy)
    eagle | *ero-, *eruro | orao
    ear | *ausos | uši (this is plural)
    eat | *westi, *ed-e/o | jesti (to eat), jede (he,she eats) (already before there was 'w'->'j)
    edge, bank | *brū | provalija (chasm)
    egg |*owjo- (?) | jaje (again 'w' -> j)
    elk (?, CW) | *lono | lane (baby deer)
    enclosure | *skorā- (?) | kora (outer layer, crust)
    enemy | nāmant | neman (monster, dangerous animal)
    evening | *weskʷro-, uskʷro- (??)| veče(r) (evening), uskoro (soon)
    excrement | *kakkā | kaka
    eye | *okʷlo- | oko
    fall | *φesti | pasti (to fall down)
    fame | *klewos | čuven PIE
    famous |*ati-gnāto | po-znat
    fast | *bousano- (??) | brz, brzina (speed), ubrzano (accelerated)
    fast (?) | *sφraxto | spretno (skillfully, ably)
    father | *tato- (*tata?) | tata, tato (dad, daddy)


    less obvious:
    dwelling | *ad-rostu- (??) | odrasti (grow-up) - when we try to speak of places where we dwelled first one would be where we did grow up... and e.g. animals dwell on single place while they have youngsters, till they grow up...

    dunk | *tumb-e | tumbati (to move or roll stg. around...) - dunk would be to move stg. around in a fluid...

    eat | *φit-e/o | pita (pie)

    empty | *wāsto | pusto (empty location), pustinja (desert) - but 'w' was so far mapping to 'j' or or 'v' ..though 'v' and 'p' are alike...

    ebb | *trag-jo- (Br.), *trāgjo- (Ir.) | trag (trace) - ebb is about declining...when water is declaining there is trace of it.... and traces were important to hunters...so in those time traces would be the key (and almost only) example of something declining with time....

    dwelling-place | *adVbV- (??) | udobno (comfortable )

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    sure, some words are PIE related... but obviously not all...
    e.g. *tauso, *tust, *kaφno, *gourjo-, *kʷinnako-

    in conclusion, so far much more cogjates do not come from PIE than the ones that do come (2?)
    does that tell you something?

    in fact, you can see that word for curly hair *gourjo- is in fact derived from word "gora" (hill) in Slavic languages...
    thus, curly hair is logically described as hilly...

    I compare to Serbian because I do not speak other Slavic languages, but many cognjates are probably existing also in other Slavic languages (would not bet on *tust, and *kʷinnako- though)
    well that is another connection the Serbian *gurjo- with Greek ζγουρο ορ σγουρο (zguro)
    I don't know the origin and the connection, but I can find many if I try,
    I don't know if it is Slavic only, wide IE, Greek or Thracian, or PIE, just mention.


    i find some coonection also with other words,

    well by what I know Scordisci were not Thracian, they were Celtic,
    now the case of celtic vocabulary inn Serbian as in many other IE is possible due to IE,

    that that makes me curius is another
    just to put a problem, a though a debate,
    could Celtic and Slavic be the language of I Y-DNA,
    I means slavic language in russia couls it be from the existance of I people,
    since by I what I have understand I Y-dna is connected with Celts,
    Just think if IE language is based in I people and not in R1a and R1b,

    well according Greek mythology Celtus live in Dinaric and north
    the only tribe that passed east of the serbian aquatic system is the scordisci in today Serbia,
    to understand that is like a line that connects Thessaloniki with Dounabis river (Donau) via smalle rivers
    Scordisci are mentioned as Celtic not Thracians,

    in fact there is a theory that Vrygians were not Thracians but Brigantes,
    among the others that consider them Lusatin Burgundy etc

    "There is no certain derivation for the name and tribal origin of the Bryges. In 1844, Hermann Müller suggested the name might be related to the same Indo-European root as that of to German Berg (mountain) and Slavic breg (hill, slope, mountain),[11] i.e. IE *bʰerǵʰ. It would then be cognate with Western European tribal names such as the Celtic Brigantes and the Germanic Burgundians,[12] and semantically motivated by some aspect of the word meanings 'high, elevated, noble, illustrious'.[13]!

    Celtic tribe named Brigantii is mentioned by Strabo as a sub-tribe of the Vindelici in the region of the Alps



    NOW the only that makes me stop is the pronounce,
    simply Celts were centum or Satem????

    now the case of celtic connection with Slavic is clearly both IE,
    that I don't know is with what genes Celts are connected,
    If they are connected with I Y-dna and not that much with R1b then surely origin of Slavic language could be I and not R1a that means that early IE language is the language of I ????????????

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    as per link below , up to year 2009 , zero celtic y-dna ( u-152) found in slav people

    http://www.davidkfaux.org/LaTene_Celt_R1b1c10_part2.pdf

    I really do not know where you are leading this thread.

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