Celtic - Serbian parallels

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dublin,
the link between Slavs and Vikings that you suggest doesnot seem to have any proof or sound indication behind it...
since this is the thread about Serbian-Celtic parallels with focus on linguistic issues...I would kindly ask you to stop writing here zillion assumptions that are supposed to prove that Vikings were Slavs...

claim that Gaelic languages/people are not same as Celtic is on other hand interesting...
how do you comment Greek mythology in which Illyrius, Celtus and Galas are brothers.....clearly there must have been a reason why Greek mythology creates persons with names same as 3 nearby nations and link them in same group....
would it according to you mean that those 3 nations were same genetic stock, same language speakers, or perhaps allies?

assuming that Celtic is not identical with Gaelic, but related in some other way (language, culture, being allies, whatever)
to which of those would you map R1b-L21?
note that there is none of it in Galatia in Asia minor nor in Galicia in Ukraine... but otherwise fairly well covers existing languages that are considered Celtic and that you consider Gaelic...

Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif



311px-Map_of_Celtic_Nations.svg.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages


and what about tribe Gallaeci resulting in area name Galicia in Spain and note the nearby (but not the same) tribe Galli


note that R1b-L21 covers in Celtic Spain most dominantly yhe area of Galli and Gallaeci, and is much weaker but still existing in areas of Celtici and Celtiberi...would that be a genetic argument for claims that nations today called Celtic are in fact Gaelic and that Celtic people were some other... perhaps I2a1 in west Europe and north Africa (where Celts were also recorded and where no other european haplogroups are really wide spread) and I2a2 in east Europe
250px-Localización_de_Galicia.svg.png


Hallstatt_LaTene.png

Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif



than again, if you look at Galatia in Asia minor and Galicia in Ukraine what haplogroups can you map to those areas?
300px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png

250px-Ukraine-Halychyna.png



the most fitting haplogroup to cover both Galicia in Ukraine and Galatia in Asia minor seems to be I2a

Haplogroup_I2a.gif



however, more closer look shows that in Spain I2a1 actually maps to pre-Celtic Iberians (and Turdetanians) and not to Celtic people

Iberian could it be derived from same I2a tribe name as Serbian, Sardinian, Kurds, Scordisci/Serdi, Sherdana...
not really...
but among Iberians are Sordones
same as in Caucasian Iberia one finds Serboi...

in Iberian area there is even today circular dance with people holding hands.... alike to the one as in Serb related countries and in Kurds
it is called Sardana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana

Sardana is originally from Emporda region in northeast corner of Catalonia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empordà_(DO)

which is in fact where tribe Sordones lived on map above...
now could Sardinians in fact origin from Sordones?
644px-Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG


curious on picture above is also pre-Celtic residual...
it does match E1b...
note the name Turdetani/Turduli as opposed to Balkan core of E1b being Dardania... isn't this the same tribal name....

look that in Iberian part (northeast of Turdetani) there is also somewhat elevated E1b...isn't this same map as Serbia being north of Albanians and having I2a with somewhat elevated E1b?
isn't the same pattern seen in Caucasus Iberia (where also Serboi were recorded) being north of Caucasian Albania?


Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg



so who are Celtici and Celtiberi in Spain?

note also expected overall Celtic spread pattern...

300px-Celtic_expansion.PNG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_tribes

it could be J2 perhaps (mixed with some R1b-L21)... it does match pretty good locations of Celtici and Celtiberi in Spain...J2 is also found in north Africa, has strong hotspot exactly in Galatia in Asia minor, is fairly strong in Galia (France), in Galicia in Ukraine.... but not so much in R1b-L21 Goidelic areas .,, nothe also that J2 would not be Celtic only... e.g. in Europe Italy, Greece, Albania would be completely independent spread from Asia minor... also in south most Spain it has to do with Phoenicians... it should be looked in subclades... but overall it is good candidate for Celtic...


Haplogroup-J2.jpg


alternatively, Celtic marker would be R1b-U152.. that i tend to link to Germanic people...
I see its hotspot in Asia minor as Phrygia not as Galatia and related to germanic tribes such as Franks (called 'Fruzi' (Frugians in medieval Serbian) and its hotspot in north Italy as settlements of Germanic people - e.g. Goths in 4th to 6th century...

but it can also be Celtic...
in fact, Roman historians were suggesting that Germans is name that means 'seed' - original Celts..
though I would expect elevated levels in Celtic parts of Spain but it seems rather flat in whole Spain which would better be explained with Visigoths...


Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif
 

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to Dublin
claim that Gaelic languages/people are not same as Celtic is on other hand interesting...
how do you comment Greek mythology in which Illyrius, Celtus and Galas are brothers.....clearly there must have been a reason why Greek mythology creates persons with names same as 3 nearby nations and link them in same group....
would it according to you mean that those 3 nations were same genetic stock, same language speakers, or perhaps allies?

assuming that Celtic is not identical with Gaelic, but related in some other way (language, culture, being allies, whatever)
to which of those would you map R1b-L21?
note that there is none of it in Galatia in Asia minor nor in Galicia in Ukraine... but otherwise fairly well covers existing languages that are considered Celtic and that you consider Gaelic...

Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages


and what about tribe Gallaeci resulting in area name Galicia in Spain and note the nearby (but not the same) tribe Galli


note that R1b-L21 covers in Celtic Spain most dominantly yhe area of Galli and Gallaeci, and is much weaker but still existing in areas of Celtici and Celtiberi...would that be a genetic argument for claims that nations today called Celtic are in fact Gaelic and that Celtic people were some other... perhaps I2a1 in west Europe and north Africa (where Celts were also recorded and where no other european haplogroups are really wide spread) and I2a2 in east Europe


Hallstatt_LaTene.png

Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif



than again, if you look at Galatia in Asia minor and Galicia in Ukraine what haplogroups can you map to those areas?
300px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png

250px-Ukraine-Halychyna.png



the most fitting haplogroup to cover both Galicia in Ukraine and Galatia in Asia minor seems to be I2a

Haplogroup_I2a.gif



however, more closer look shows that in Spain I2a1 actually maps to pre-Celtic Iberians (and Turdetanians) and not to Celtic people

Iberian could it be derived from same I2a tribe name as Serbian, Sardinian...
what if first it was Siberian?

in Iberian area there is even today circular dance with people holding hands.... alike to the one as in Serb related countries and in Kurds
it is called Sardana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana


644px-Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG


curious on picture above is also pre-Celtic residual...
it does match E1b...
note the name Turdetani/Turduli as opposed to Balkan core of E1b being Dardania... isn't this the same tribal name....

look that in Iberian part there is also somewhat elevated E1b...isn't this same map as Serbia being north of Albanians and having I2a with elevated E1b?
isn't the same pattern seen in Caucasus Iberia where Serboi were recorded north of Albania?


Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg
[/QUOTE]

some remarks:
gaelic and brittonic and gaulish and celtiberish and other classified 'celtic'languages are very too close one to together to be of different previous stock - sure enough the rupture between gaelic and others celtic languages COULD (it's not sure) be old enough, but no serious linguist discuss their common basic celtic heritage -
on an other hand, the R1b-U152 so common in Gaul territories and in Cisalpine Gaul is very close genetically to the R1b-L21, closer than to R1-U106 (pirncipally germanic spred) by instance; so build a very diffrent ancient history on these distributions of languages and HGs seams to me very hazardous or exagerated - for Illyrian, do not put too much confidence il old legends or myths: we know they have their parts of truth and their part of tale making, but we don't know the exact proportions between them: the Illyrians seam having spoken a 'satem' I-Ean - and their neighbours farther North (Pannonians, Venetians) was linguistically surely closer to italic languages according to the recent studies -
Just my point of view
 
Omigod, language forum not genetic... :/

@dublin: No offense, but you're just saying a bunch of nonsense (on the linguistic note, I don't care genetically). Celtic-Serbian (Serbian to say but the Celtic-Serbian cognates you say are will ALL slavic languages, so it can apply to Croatian, Montenegrin, Bosnian, Slovenian, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Slovak, Polish, Ukrainian, Belarus, Russian and whatever language I might have forgotten). And Serbia (thus slavic) language being related to Thracian is total nonsense and shows that you're living in a fairy tail (note: Linguistically cause genetically i would be surprised if there wasn't any Thracian genes in South-Slavic).

Thracian is a Paleo-Balkanic language thus since there any relations between South-Slavic and particularly Serbian is false, unless you can prove that Slavic languages are a Paleo-Balkanic language...

Thracian is similar to Dacian and probably Illyrian (since Illyrian is a Paleo-Balkanic language too). The only language remotely related to Thracian today is Albanian (and Romanian, but only word wise since semantically is a Latin language) since is the only surviving Balkanic language and is either Thraco-Dacian, Thraco-Illyrian or simply one of the above.
 
some remarks:
gaelic and brittonic and gaulish and celtiberish and other classified 'celtic'languages are very too close one to together to be of different previous stock - sure enough the rupture between gaelic and others celtic languages COULD (it's not sure) be old enough, but no serious linguist discuss their common basic celtic heritage -
on an other hand, the R1b-U152 so common in Gaul territories and in Cisalpine Gaul is very close genetically to the R1b-L21, closer than to R1-U106 (pirncipally germanic spred) by instance; so build a very diffrent ancient history on these distributions of languages and HGs seams to me very hazardous or exagerated - for Illyrian, do not put too much confidence il old legends or myths: we know they have their parts of truth and their part of tale making, but we don't know the exact proportions between them: the Illyrians seam having spoken a 'satem' I-Ean - and their neighbours farther North (Pannonians, Venetians) was linguistically surely closer to italic languages according to the recent studies -
Just my point of view
illyrians are hard case.... i am undecided whether they were Eb1 or I2a or J2 people...people who claim that I2a only came to Balkan with Slavs base it on Norvedt calculations, but his model is way to strict... in recent published work the age of I2a in Serbia was estimated to be much older than his estimate...so I would not put all my bets on Nordvedt's numbers.. but it is even unclear where did Illyrians lived... were they ever living north of south Montenegro...

if Celts would be originally J2 (and have merged with R1b-L21), than Illyrians could have been J2 as well... which would explain well myth of 3 brothers Celtus, Galas and Illyrus.....


as for their north neighbours Pannonians and Scordisci, I tend to put them in pre-Slavic stock... especially because some of them Oserites who live on Plitvice lake complex has name whose meaning is only in Slavic languages = lake people (jezero/Ozero = lake)....

russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs who lived along Danube in Hungary and Bulgary before Vlakhs Roman empire pushed them to north... which maps to Scordisci/Serdi and Pannonians, and among them it states Serbs, Croats and Carantines (Slovenes).....in such a scenario I tend to map Scordisci/Serdi to proto-Serbs, Croats could be Carpi (also Danube people but around black sea), and Pannonians perhaps forefathers of west Slavs (Slovenes among them).. but "ozero" is used in east Slavic languages while west Slavs and south Slavs have "jezero"..... so Pannonians could have been in fact original east Slavs...
on other hand the R1a subclade typical for Europe (mostly for west Slavs) is ancient old in Serbia...suggesting a spread from area of Serbia to west Slavic countries... I did relate that to Pelasgians (= field people same as Poles /Poljaci = field people and same as Panonia is big plane/field, so Pannonians again field people)

the way I see it is that west Slavs go originally from Balkans (where perhaps they were Pelasgians) to Pannonia as Europe specific R1a... there they merge with south Slavs who live originally around Danube in north Balkan as I2a

pushed towards north by spread of Roman empire they all merge with east Slavs who are R1a Balto-Slavs ...

than when Roman empire became to fall apart they rush into more or less their original settlement areas.... what Russian primary chronicle records is memory that was passed on orally from one generation to other... part of that collective memory is home area around Danube... hence south Slavs in fact in 6th century migrate back home.....
 
illyrians are hard case.... i am undecided whether they were Eb1 or I2a or J2 people...people who claim that I2a only came to Balkan with Slavs base it on Norvedt calculations, but his model is way to strict... in recent published work the age of I2a in Serbia was estimated to be much older than his estimate...so I would not put all my bets on Nordvedt's numbers.. but it is even unclear where did Illyrians lived... were they ever living north of south Montenegro...

if Celts would be originally J2 (and have merged with R1b-L21), than Illyrians could have been J2 as well... which would explain well myth of 3 brothers Celtus, Galas and Illyrus.....


as for their north neighbours Pannonians and Scordisci, I tend to put them in pre-Slavic stock... especially because some of them Oserites who live on Plitvice lake complex has name whose meaning is only in Slavic languages = lake people (jezero/Ozero = lake)....

russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs who lived along Danube in Hungary and Bulgary before Vlakhs Roman empire pushed them to north... which maps to Scordisci/Serdi and Pannonians, and among them it states Serbs, Croats and Carantines (Slovenes).....in such a scenario I tend to map Scordisci/Serdi to proto-Serbs, Croats could be Carpi (also Danube people but around black sea), and Pannonians perhaps forefathers of west Slavs (Slovenes among them).. but "ozero" is used in east Slavic languages while west Slavs and south Slavs have "jezero"..... so Pannonians could have been in fact original east Slavs...
on other hand the R1a subclade typical for Europe (mostly for west Slavs) is ancient old in Serbia...suggesting a spread from area of Serbia to west Slavic countries... I did relate that to Pelasgians (= field people same as Poles /Poljaci = field people and same as Panonia is big plane/field, so Pannonians again field people)

the way I see it is that west Slavs go originally from Balkans (where perhaps they were Pelasgians) to Pannonia as Europe specific R1a... there they merge with south Slavs who live originally around Danube in north Balkan as I2a

pushed towards north by spread of Roman empire they all merge with east Slavs who are R1a Balto-Slavs ...

than when Roman empire became to fall apart they rush into more or less their original settlement areas.... what Russian primary chronicle records is memory that was passed on orally from one generation to other... part of that collective memory is home area around Danube... hence south Slavs in fact in 6th century migrate back home.....

the more i read about Illyrians the less I call them illyrians. In other words I think they are only called (illyrians) this due to a geographical area called illyricum similar to the people being called british. People from britain, but is there a tribe called british, no, just english, scot, welsh, cornish and irish tribes/peoples.
same for illyrians, their langauge and genetics are all different from one of the main (9 ) tribes to the other of the main tribes.

very hard to pin them down
 
Ok let's start with the most ridiculousthing first.

lebrok

Youhave it backward Dublin. It was like this:
Weall know that there was a big ship building industry in Ireland by10th century, or earlier. It means that Celts learned from Vikingshow to build ships by that time. By 10 century, at the peak of theirpower, they invaded Baltic Coast and Started their communities.
Itvery simply explains why their 3 faced god, Slavs called justTriglav, showed up in the slavic coastal area. Also it explains whysimilar ships were found in Pomerania and Ireland. When we have somuch evidence, we can conclude that Volinians and west Pomeranianspoke Celtic/Irish language till probably 14th century.

The southernshores of Baltic have cultural continuity from at least the 5thcentury until this very day. I say at least because I believe thatthe cultural continuity extends into antiquity.


Most of thetoponyms and hydronyms in the area are Slavic.
Most of thesettlement names in the area are Slavic.
There are manywritten accounts from Franc, Irish, Danish, German, Russian, Arabicchroniclers from the 5th century onwards that say thatSlavs or Wends lived in the area.
All the names ofall the southern Baltic kings and chieftains mentioned in thosechronicles are Slavic.
There aredescriptions in those chronicles of great big Slavic cities andports, mighty Slavic fleets consisting of thousands of ships.
All the templesfound in the area are Slavic.
Today allGerman, Danish, Swedish, Russian, Polish historians agree that Slavsoccupied this territory from at least the 10th century.They also all agree


At the samethere is absolutely no evidence that any Gael ever set foot in theBaltic region unless they were brought there as slaves. There are noGaelic toponymes or hydronymes, no Gaelic personal names or placenames.


But there isTriglav, both in southern Baltic and UK and Ireland, and you willjust have to live with it.


I am preparing aproper response about Triglav, and will post it when it's finished.


As a delicacyhere is an Irish source that confirms that Slavs lived in Baltic andwere well known to the Irish. The source is the life of the st.Columban written in the 7th century and describes eventsthat happened during the saint's life. Enjoy.


SAINTDATA:Columban, abbot and missioner, Born in Leinster (Ireland), c. 540; d.at Bobbio, Italy, 640; feast day 23 November. [*Note that, despiteJonas' assertion that Columban was also known as "Columba",he is distinct from St. Columba, founder of Iona, born in 521, d.597, and whose feast day is June 9.]

56.

OnceColumban though going to the land of the Wends, who are also calledSlavs, in order to illuminate their darkened minds with the light ofthe Gospel and to open the way of truth to those who had alwayswandered in error. When he proposed to make his vows, the angel ofthe Lord appeared to him in a vision, and showed him in a littlecircle the structure of the world, just as the circle of the universeis usually, drawn with a pen in a book. "You perceive," theangel said, "how much remains set apart of the whole world. Goto the right or the left where you will, that you may enjoy thefruits of your labors." Therefore Columban remained where hewas, until the way to Italy opened before him.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columban.asp
 
for all of those who are complaining about me writing about Slavic vikings

I do it because the Baltic Slavs (the Slavic vikings) are crucial for unlocking the Slavic – Celtic mystery and Triglav is the key.There is a confirmed presence of the cult of Triglav in the whole ofEurope and now on the British isles and in Ireland. I will post adetailed explanation why all three headed god representations in theso called Celtic lands are representations of Triglav, and willexplain why I think this proves that Celts and Slavs are one and thesame.


This thread should be called Gaelic –Celtic parallels or Gaelic – Slavic parallels. Celtic – Slavicparallels are something completely different.


Here is an interesting article aboutSlavic influence in the Ancient Gaul:


Itis common opinion between the scholars and the people that theancient gauls formed
acompact set of Celtic tribes speaking the gaulish language or similarvarieties of the same
one[1]. The gaulish language also called Classical Celtic hadpractically nothing in common
withInsular Celtic; it was very close to the Italic group of tongues andhad grammatical
formssimilar to those of the Proto-Indo-European model [1]. however, thepublication in a
recentpast of relevant works has animated the debate about the slaviccultural and religious
influencesand about the slavic presence in the ancient gaul. With this paper,after having
reviewedsaid relevant works, we analyze in more details some origins of theseinfluences
andpresence so as to introduce some more arguments and evidences intothedebate.
http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik10/seraf_slavic_gaul.pdf
 
hyn 3

how do you comment Greek mythology in which Illyrius, Celtus and Galas are brothers.....clearly there must have been a reason why Greek mythology creates persons with names same as 3 nearby nations and link them in same group....

Three names for the three territorial groups of the same people, three brothers of the Slavic (call it Serbian if you want) family. no mystery here. like Serbs, Croats and Bosnian today. The same people, a lot of time fighting each other for various political and religious reasons, but still the same people. Remember there was not a Slavic state since Slavs left India, and who knows if there was even one then.
 
Ok let's start with the most ridiculousthing first.

lebrok



The southernshores of Baltic have cultural continuity from at least the 5thcentury until this very day. I say at least because I believe thatthe cultural continuity extends into antiquity.


Most of thetoponyms and hydronyms in the area are Slavic.
Most of thesettlement names in the area are Slavic.
There are manywritten accounts from Franc, Irish, Danish, German, Russian, Arabicchroniclers from the 5th century onwards that say thatSlavs or Wends lived in the area.
All the names ofall the southern Baltic kings and chieftains mentioned in thosechronicles are Slavic.
There aredescriptions in those chronicles of great big Slavic cities andports, mighty Slavic fleets consisting of thousands of ships.
All the templesfound in the area are Slavic.
Today allGerman, Danish, Swedish, Russian, Polish historians agree that Slavsoccupied this territory from at least the 10th century.They also all agree


At the samethere is absolutely no evidence that any Gael ever set foot in theBaltic region unless they were brought there as slaves. There are noGaelic toponymes or hydronymes, no Gaelic personal names or placenames.


But there isTriglav, both in southern Baltic and UK and Ireland, and you willjust have to live with it.


I am preparing aproper response about Triglav, and will post it when it's finished.


As a delicacyhere is an Irish source that confirms that Slavs lived in Baltic andwere well known to the Irish. The source is the life of the st.Columban written in the 7th century and describes eventsthat happened during the saint's life. Enjoy.





http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columban.asp

Lol, I wrote my post in sarcastic way, sorry you didn't get the joke. I denied Slavic existence as you denied Celtic. I was just giving you your medicine.
 
I think enough was said on the subject. Let's close this farce.
 
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