Celtic - Serbian parallels

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But then I could be checking with Russian words. This way there may be even more matches. (Though I may not know all russian words in dialects and rarely used ones...) The word with "-" means I did not find a Russian match.


english | proto-Celtic |russian| serbian (slavic)

breathe (?) | (*dū-) | /duh |duh (ghost), dah (breath), diišat| disati (breathe), diišat( to breathe)| duvati (to blow)
bridge | *brīwā- (?)| brevno| brvno (body of tree used as a improvised bridge)
bright | *belo-, beleno- (?) | belii| belo (white)
brother | *brātīr | brat| brat - PIE*
brow | *bruwi- (?) | brovi| obrva - PIE*
burn | *teφ- | topit (sink) | topiti (melt)
- buttocks | *getto- (*gesdo- ??) | guza
- by | *φari | pored (by, next to)
- car | *kʷol-ō | kola - possibly derived from old words for wagon
- care | *maro- (??) | mariti
- carpenter's tool | *kantairV- (??) | kantar (weighing tool - scale)
circle | *kuro- (?) |krug| krug
-cleft | *bulko-, -ā | pukotina
-clothes | *wīs-kā- | veš < PIE *wēs-kā
cloak | *tonakā- (?) |tunika| tunika
coal | *goglo | ugl| ugalj
cough | *kʷasto | kasliat| kašalj
counter |*φrit- | protiv| protiv
( "counter-strike" - *φrit-gʷani- , and "counter-swear" - *writ-tung-e)
cow | *bou | bul| biik| vo (ox)
cuckoo | *kouko-, kukā | kukuška| kukavica - obviosuly based on sound bird produces
cultivated (*ploughed) land | *φolkā | pole| polje (field)
curly | *krikso| krivoj| krivo (not straight)
danger,illness | *gustu | gustoj| gustugusto (dense) - used also for difficult situations such as danger, tough illness
dark | *temeno | tama(darkness) , temno| tamno (dark)
daughter | *merkā | docurka (daugther in diminutive)| ćerka

less obvious:
buds | *bakl- (??) | fakel| baklja (torch)
-build | *dema- | temelj (foundation of buidling)
chin,cheek | *groudos | grudi| grudi (breast - also in males) - common point - part of body that is sticking out...
cloud | *neglo- (??) | mgla| magla (fog)
cream | *soimeno- (?) | semena|seme(no) (seed)
daughter | *genet(t)ā | žena| žena (wife, woman) - Celtic word sounds to me as a demunitive for word woman
day | *din | den| dan
dead | *marwo | mertvii| mrtvo
dear | *dreuto- / *drouto-, *drūto | dorogoi| drago
decay |*mrato | umeret| mreti (in process of dying)
deceive | *lug | lgat| lagati (to lie)
-deception | *kloφni- | klopka (trap)
deep | *dubno-, *dubni | gluboki| duboko
deer | *el-lant-ī- (?), *el-an-ī | olen| jelen
defecate | *kakk-āje/o | kakat| kaki(ti) (usually used for small children, babies)
depraved | *mallo | malii| malo (=little)
depth | *dubno-tero | glubina| dubina
-detach |*skart-āje/o | škartirati (throw away, reject) - could be loan perhaps germanic
-dirt; anger | *brokkV- / *brukko-, -ā- (?) | bruka (emberassment - which is in fact a word for dirt event that cause anger)
disgust | *gragni- (?) | groznii (threatening) grozno (disgusting), gadjenje (disgust), zgroziti se (to become disgusted)
-dog | *kwū, *kun | kuče, kuca (small dog), kuna (martel)
door, gate | *dworestu- (?) | dvor| dvorište (garden), dver| dveri (gate, door)
-double | *dwei-φlo | duplo
dough | *taisto | testo| testo
dove | *kolombo- (or < Lat.?) | golub| golub
drink | *φib-e/o- | piće (drink), pit| piti (to drink) - φ was so far always 'p'
druid |*derwo-wid- (?) | drvo | drevo (tree) + vid| vidit (vision|to see) - world was seen as a tree...druids were people able to see in the tree

not so obvious:
doctor | *lī(φ)agi- (??) | lekar| lekar
dawn | *wāsri | zaria| zora
- dig | *kʷal-e/o| kal (mud, ground)
- ditch | klado | klada (log) - guess due to bugs bunny cartoons but I always imagine ditch behind a log...
 
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where is all this going? What are we trying to say ?

Are we saying that the Thraco-celtic tribe the serdi where slavic

or

are we saying that the serbs enriched their vocabulary by introducing vast numbers of celtic words due to missing words ( this seems the true answer) in their own vocabulary. around 400plus AD

The Serdi only existed between 300 - 100 BC, they where assimilated into thracian - roman culture
 
Dagne, thanks for comparison
Zanipolo, this is thread about parallels in two languages, two cultures, two mythologies...
if you are bothered with this thread go open thread about Albanian-Celtic parallels... should not be too difficult to recognize words that match in form and meaning in proto-Celtic vocabulary.... it would be interesting to compare whether shared words are the same, and to try to perhaps estimate roughly time of influences based on sets of shared words...

let's continue....

first correction

english | celtic | serbian
bed | *leg-jo, *legos | ležaj

(previously I used verb to explain similarity, stupidly didnot remember obvious and quite used word)


now, we can continue:

english | celtic | serbian
dry | krasto | krasta (dried blood on wound, scab, but in fact 'crust' would be proper word if english was more logical)
duty, goal | *adilo | cilj - to recognise this one you need to pronounce it...
dung | *kagVlo- (?) | kaljavo (dirty, muddy)
eagle | *ero-, *eruro | orao
ear | *ausos | uši (this is plural)
eat | *westi, *ed-e/o | jesti (to eat), jede (he,she eats) (already before there was 'w'->'j)
edge, bank | *brū | provalija (chasm)
egg |*owjo- (?) | jaje (again 'w' -> j)
elk (?, CW) | *lono | lane (baby deer)
enclosure | *skorā- (?) | kora (outer layer, crust)
enemy | nāmant | neman (monster, dangerous animal)
evening | *weskʷro-, uskʷro- (??)| veče(r) (evening), uskoro (soon)
excrement | *kakkā | kaka
eye | *okʷlo- | oko
fall | *φesti | pasti (to fall down)
fame | *klewos | čuven PIE
famous |*ati-gnāto | po-znat
fast | *bousano- (??) | brz, brzina (speed), ubrzano (accelerated)
fast (?) | *sφraxto | spretno (skillfully, ably)
father | *tato- (*tata?) | tata, tato (dad, daddy)


less obvious:
dwelling | *ad-rostu- (??) | odrasti (grow-up) - when we try to speak of places where we dwelled first one would be where we did grow up... and e.g. animals dwell on single place while they have youngsters, till they grow up...

dunk | *tumb-e | tumbati (to move or roll stg. around...) - dunk would be to move stg. around in a fluid...

eat | *φit-e/o | pita (pie)

empty | *wāsto | pusto (empty location), pustinja (desert) - but 'w' was so far mapping to 'j' or or 'v' ..though 'v' and 'p' are alike...

ebb | *trag-jo- (Br.), *trāgjo- (Ir.) | trag (trace) - ebb is about declining...when water is declaining there is trace of it.... and traces were important to hunters...so in those time traces would be the key (and almost only) example of something declining with time....

dwelling-place | *adVbV- (??) | udobno (comfortable )
 
sure, some words are PIE related... but obviously not all...
e.g. *tauso, *tust, *kaφno, *gourjo-, *kʷinnako-

in conclusion, so far much more cogjates do not come from PIE than the ones that do come (2?)
does that tell you something?

in fact, you can see that word for curly hair *gourjo- is in fact derived from word "gora" (hill) in Slavic languages...
thus, curly hair is logically described as hilly...

I compare to Serbian because I do not speak other Slavic languages, but many cognjates are probably existing also in other Slavic languages (would not bet on *tust, and *kʷinnako- though)

well that is another connection the Serbian *gurjo- with Greek ζγουρο ορ σγουρο (zguro)
I don't know the origin and the connection, but I can find many if I try,
I don't know if it is Slavic only, wide IE, Greek or Thracian, or PIE, just mention.


i find some coonection also with other words,

well by what I know Scordisci were not Thracian, they were Celtic,
now the case of celtic vocabulary inn Serbian as in many other IE is possible due to IE,

that that makes me curius is another
just to put a problem, a though a debate,
could Celtic and Slavic be the language of I Y-DNA,
I means slavic language in russia couls it be from the existance of I people,
since by I what I have understand I Y-dna is connected with Celts,
Just think if IE language is based in I people and not in R1a and R1b,

well according Greek mythology Celtus live in Dinaric and north
the only tribe that passed east of the serbian aquatic system is the scordisci in today Serbia,
to understand that is like a line that connects Thessaloniki with Dounabis river (Donau) via smalle rivers
Scordisci are mentioned as Celtic not Thracians,

in fact there is a theory that Vrygians were not Thracians but Brigantes,
among the others that consider them Lusatin Burgundy etc

"There is no certain derivation for the name and tribal origin of the Bryges. In 1844, Hermann Müller suggested the name might be related to the same Indo-European root as that of to German Berg (mountain) and Slavic breg (hill, slope, mountain),[11] i.e. IE *bʰerǵʰ. It would then be cognate with Western European tribal names such as the Celtic Brigantes and the Germanic Burgundians,[12] and semantically motivated by some aspect of the word meanings 'high, elevated, noble, illustrious'.[13]!

Celtic tribe named Brigantii is mentioned by Strabo as a sub-tribe of the Vindelici in the region of the Alps



NOW the only that makes me stop is the pronounce,
simply Celts were centum or Satem????

now the case of celtic connection with Slavic is clearly both IE,
that I don't know is with what genes Celts are connected,
If they are connected with I Y-dna and not that much with R1b then surely origin of Slavic language could be I and not R1a that means that early IE language is the language of I ????????????
 
Iapetoc,
It is hard to guess who were original IE speakers...
as far as we know genetic and linguistic might have been developing separately....

Zanipolo,

why do you need agenda for every post.... point is to compare two languages and cultures... if others do the similar comparison of Celtic and their languages (e,g, you could make one for Albanian and Celtic) we may get some interesting insights...

so far, it doesnot look to me as very close relation between two languages... but looks enough to propose living in proximity for long periods of time... my guess is that early Slavs (before Roman spread) lived around Danube and in Noricum as written in Russian primary chronicle... and both were in area of influence of Celts...

you do realize that being U152 is not same as being Celt? U-152 is forum level of assumptions about Celtic genetics.....Celts are culture and may have had various genetic linages related to them... U-152 might even not be one of them... e.g. some people think of it as of Germanic branch of R1b... btw. where does your data about zero U-152 in Slavic people come from?

back to vocabulary

fight | *wixtā, *wīk-ā- (?) | bitka (battle), vika (shout)
fill | *φlīn-e/o | puniti (infinitiv, past time would be 'punio')
finger | *bissi- (?) | prst
flat stone | *(φ)likkā- (?) | ploča
flat-fish | *(s)lisd- (??) | riba (fish)- list
flee |*tekk-e/o- (?) | utekao (past time - "had run away")
fleece | *knab-jā- (?) | kanap (rope)
flow | *leja- | lije (to flow down as e.g. rain or spilled fluid does)
foam | *φowen-o- (-ī-) (?) | pena
forehead | *talo | čelo
forest | *kaito | gaj
forest | *φro-sto | hrast (oak)
four- *kʷetru, *kʷetweres (m.), *kʷetesres (f.) | četiri, četvoro (n)...
full | *φlāno | puno
gift | *dāno | dano (given)
gift | *φro-dā- (?) | prodati (to sell), prodano (sold)
give | *dā- | da-ti
go | *(s)teig-e/ogo | stigao (has arrived)
go | *i-tā-(je/o-) (?)| ići, ide
going | *(s)tixtā | stići (arrive - infinitive), stiže (he/she arrives)
grain | *φitu | žito
grandmother |*nanī | nana (older related woman, e.g. sister of grandmother)
grey | *udro- (?) | modro (grayish blue, e.g. as in bruise)
grind |*mela-, *mel-e/o-, *mal-e/o- (?) | melje (he/she grinds), mleti (infinitive)
groan | *stan-je/o- (?), *stono | stenje (he/she groans), stenjati (infinitive)
grove, wood |*kʷristo | hrast (oak tree)




less obvious:
food | *mastjā | mast (fat), meso (meat)
group of mowers | *metelā |metla (broom)
 
you do realize that being U152 is not same as being Celt? U-152 is forum level of assumptions about Celtic genetics.....Celts are culture and may have had various genetic linages related to them... U-152 might even not be one of them... e.g. some people think of it as of Germanic branch of R1b... btw. where does your data about zero U-152 in Slavic people come from?

The link I presented.

The only slavic link , if there is any for the noricum and slovak areas is based on a germanic link through u-106. a link going back to the assimilation with the goths and bastanae north of the black sea.

But as centuries pass, genetics change in areas, take for example the friuli in north east Italy, although speaking an ancient venetic tongue in the bronze age initially, migration by gallia-celtic people from Narbon ( southern France) changed the situation prior to Roman "occupation ) , the border of the Veneti proper in this period was the Livenza river, which is to this day the border of the veneti and the friuli. This incursion, split the veneti from their "brothers" the istrians and the vennonetes ( the original tribe east of the veneti and west of the carni tribe).

Your only link , if there is any is that the celts reached the danube delta on the black sea, there might be a meeting between the sarmatians and the celts then, but I doubt it.

Since I can not find out exactly if the sarmatians or the scythains are slavic then i cannot gaurantee this blacksea link with the celts.

Besides , there is a difference in genetics between the germanic-celts and the gallia-celts.

In the link below, updated from ancient Roman archived map, sorry its in Italain , but its easy to link the names
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Cesare_prima_Gallia_58_a.C._jpg.jpg
The dacians and celts mixed languages ( with the illyrians ) in the Pannonian area.
If you say that dacian has slavic words, well I do not know.

Also, note slavi are not linked with the sarmatians or the balts or the Venedae ( term used for estonians and lithuaians in roman days ) ,
 
Your only link , if there is any is that the celts reached the danube delta on the black sea, there might be a meeting between the sarmatians and the celts then, but I doubt it.

I don't know, I wouldnot exclude possibillity that I2 people (including I2b, I2a1 and I2a2) are originally Celts...
Celts are claimed to live in Africa, Asia and there is I2 in north Africa and Asia (e.g. in Kurds)... black strain of R1b of Africa is too far a way in past from Celtic R1b to be Celtic in origin... but Garamantes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garamantes) could have been Celtic and I2a1 in origin...

look at this work that places one of I2 subgroups into Celts
http://www.rjgg.molgen.org/index.php/RJGG/article/view/64/79

note that I2b is signature of Germanic tribes (while I1 is more signature of related Scandinavians) and Cimmerians are thought to be Gomer people (Gomer is biblical person from whom in Hebrew tradition Germanic people origin).... note that some Roman historians thought that word German means 'seed' and is used to mark original Celts

I relate I2 with Cimmerians/Serians, and some antic historians consider Cimmerians to be original Celts
Josephus related the Biblical figure Gomer to Galatia (or perhaps to Gaul in general). "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, [Galls,] but were then called Gomerites." Antiquities of the Jews, I:6. Others have related Gomer to Cimmerians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

I do relate ancestors of Serbs to Serians... mainly because Bavarian geographer wrote down that state of Zeruiani (which many interpret as Serbs) was so big that all Slavs come from there....and because there is overlap between I2a2 island in Cappadocia with suggestion that Cimmerians settled there... note that Cappadocians are by Strabo called white Syrians, while Serbs are recorded to origin from white Serbs... I also have match of Zeruiani and Cimmerians with Serians of Seneca...


In that sense, I2a2 can be Slavicized Celts...

that could indicate that Scordisci are ancestors of modern Serb, as well as Serdi who were likely just thracanized part of Scordisci... this poses the question whether Thracians were in fact proto-Slavs... I think that is quite likely...

note that Scordisci lived mixed with illyrians and that modern Serbs settled in desolated lands... origin from Scordisci (who lived mixed with Illyrians) would explain rather large haplogroup E in modern Serbs....

I will repeat here some key points I made recently on thread about Dacian language...
basically, I find it very likely that Thracians and Veneti gave Slavs, and Hyperboreans or Dacians gave Balts....


note that Russian primary chronicle places early Slavs (in times before Roman empire has spread northwards) around Danube, in Thrace and Pannonia, and also in Noricum... that would map to some of Thracian tribes (e.g. Triballi), to Pannonians, Scordisci and Veneti
than pushed by Romans they go to north to Vistula where we find Veneti... and than few centuries later Jordanes states that Slavs are of Venethi race...
note that Russian primary chronicle does not place early Slavs in Dacia...
btw. let me remind you that Thracian cult of Sabazios (Saba Zeus or Serbian Zeus) has same hand gesture that is used by Serbs...

in my theory Veneti are represented in Greek mythology as wind gods - Anemoi/Venti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi) and are proto-Slavs...
I can map east wind god Eurus to tribal names Russians and Thracians, west wind god Zephyros (born in caves of Thrace) to tribal names of Serbs, Serres and Scordisci, and his son Karpus to tribal name of Croats

if Slavs are Veneti, than Balts would be north of Veneti... north most Venti wind God was Borea (Boreans could in fact be about Borussia/Prussia or Belarus...), thus Balts would be people living north of Borea - Hyperboreans, ...

Homer placed Boreas in Thrace, and therefore Hyperborea in his opinion dwelled somewhere to the north of Thracian territory, perhaps Dacia.[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperborea

thus, there are clues that Hyperboreans were Dacians...

note that north most Venti wind God Borea is still in Thrace... which is consistent with Russian primary chronicle not placing Slavs in Dacia


Lithuanians and Letonians may derive name from Appolo's and Artemis mother Leto...

Another late source, Aelian, also links Leto with wolves and Hyperboreans:
Wolves are not easily delivered of their young, only after twelve days and twelve nights, for the people of Delos maintain that this was the length of time that it took Leto to travel from the Hyperboreoi to Delos."[21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto

Lithuanians and Latvians may be Hyperboreans whose tribal name is based on name of Leto...
Hyperborean is not tribal name, it just means north of Boreans, or north of north most Venti (I think Venti map to Veneti, and to proto-Slavs)

Leto may have the same Lycian origin as "Leda", meaning "woman/wife" in the ancient Lycian language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto


if I2a2 are Slavicized Celts, than Serbo-Croat language ought to have much more words related to Celtic than other Balto-Slavic languages... if however, there was general mixing of Slavic and Celtic tribes than the words I find should be numerous and shared among all Slavic people.... if Slavs didnot have direct contact with Celts than almost all found words should be IE in origin...


btw. we know from Strabo that Scordisci were not Illyrians, but lived mixed with them and were alied to them...
this kinds of relationships would in Greek mythology go as daughter, wife, son, grandson - if being subjugated by male tribe) or as sons and grandsons; if there is large admixture mix than sons, if there is less admixture than grandsons and even less grandgrandsons..

Illyrus
Sons
Encheleus (Εγχελέα) of the Enchelaeae
Autarieus (Αυταριέα) of the Autariates
Dardanus (Δάρδανον) of the Dardani
Maedus (Μαίδον)
Taulas (Ταυλαντά) of the Taulantii
Perrhaebus (Περραιβόν) of the Perrhaebi
[edit]Daughters
Partho (Πάρθω) of the Partheni
Daortho (Δαορθώ) of the Daors
Dassaro (Δασσαρώ) of the Dassaretae
[edit]Grandsons
Pannonius or Paeon (son of Autarieus) of the Pannonians
[edit]Greatgrandsons
Scordiscus (son of Pannonius) of the Scordisci
Triballus (son of Pannonius) of the Triballi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius

this means that E-V13 Illyrians that assimilated previous inhabitants (such as R1b and R1a) gave tribes such as
Enchelaeae, Autariates, Dardani, Maedus (Μαίδον), Taulantii and Perrhaebi
those that were assimilated in other people gave tribes such as Partheni, Daors and Dassaretae
that they had like 1/4 in grandson tribes in this case Pannonians
and 1/4 - 1/8 in Greatgrandsons (in this case Scordisci and Triballi)

this fits into roughly 1/5 of E-V13 in Serbs.. note that E-V13 in Serbs is not related to historical times and Albanians because there was never so large admixture of Albanians and E-V13 is rather homogenous in Serbs - around 20% even in Bosnia and Vojvodina) - thus it is older substratum... the homogenous spread indicates that big part of E-V13 went with them to north and came back with them... e.g. compare this to I2a2 in Croatia that has large regional variations from extreme values in Pagania areas, to around zero in Kaikavian speaking areas......which indicates more recent admixture..

Scordisci gave Serdi, and Tribali is name used by Byzantine authors as alternative for Serbs...
this indicates that those were proto-Serb tribes... I2a in origin, E-V13 due to mix with Illyrians and R1a (around 15%) due to Thracian (Balto-Slavic influence) .... I think that R1b (around 5%- 10% in Serbs) and part of E-V13 is in Serbs largely related to Vlachs...
and there is some influence of ancient Greeks in shape of J2 (up to 10%)

Scordisci and Triballi origin from Pannonians, and Pannonians from Autoriates...
could Croats tribal name come from Autoriates?

few preserved Illyrian words match Slavic much better than Albanian because they probably come from Roman Illyria (Dalmatia and Bosnia) that was settled by Pannonians (according to Strabo) and not by Illyrians proper (Albania and Montnegro)...
 
I don't know, I wouldnot exclude possibillity that I2 people (including I2b, I2a1 and I2a2) are originally Celts...
Celts are claimed to live in Africa, Asia and there is I2 in north Africa and Asia (e.g. in Kurds)... black strain of R1b of Africa is too far a way in past from Celtic R1b to be Celtic in origin... but Garamantes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garamantes) could have been Celtic and I2a1 in origin...

look at this work that places one of I2 subgroups into Celts
http://www.rjgg.molgen.org/index.php/RJGG/article/view/64/79

note that I2b is signature of Germanic tribes (while I1 is more signature of related Scandinavians) and Cimmerians are thought to be Gomer people (Gomer is biblical person from whom in Hebrew tradition Germanic people origin).... note that some Roman historians thought that word German means 'seed' and is used to mark original Celts

I relate I2 with Cimmerians/Serians, and some antic historians consider Cimmerians to be original Celts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

I do relate ancestors of Serbs to Serians... mainly because Bavarian geographer wrote down that state of Zeruiani (which many interpret as Serbs) was so big that all Slavs come from there....and because there is overlap between I2a2 island in Cappadocia with suggestion that Cimmerians settled there... note that Cappadocians are by Strabo called white Syrians, while Serbs are recorded to origin from white Serbs... I also have match of Zeruiani and Cimmerians with Serians of Seneca...


In that sense, I2a2 can be Slavicized Celts...

that could indicate that Scordisci are ancestors of modern Serb, as well as Serdi who were likely just thracanized part of Scordisci... this poses the question whether Thracians were in fact proto-Slavs... I think that is quite likely...

note that Scordisci lived mixed with illyrians and that modern Serbs settled in desolated lands... origin from Scordisci (who lived mixed with Illyrians) would explain rather large haplogroup E in modern Serbs....

I will repeat here some key points I made recently on thread about Dacian language...
basically, I find it very likely that Thracians and Veneti gave Slavs, and Hyperboreans or Dacians gave Balts....





if I2a2 are Slavicized Celts, than Serbo-Croat language ought to have much more words related to Celtic than other Balto-Slavic languages... if however, there was general mixing of Slavic and Celtic tribes than the words I find should be numerous and shared among all Slavic people.... if Slavs didnot have direct contact with Celts than almost all found words should be IE in origin...


btw. we know from Strabo that Scordisci were not Illyrians, but lived mixed with them and were alied to them...
this kinds of relationships would in Greek mythology go as daughter, wife, son, grandson - if being subjugated by male tribe) or as sons and grandsons; if there is large admixture mix than sons, if there is less admixture than grandsons and even less grandgrandsons..

Illyrus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius

this means that E-V13 Illyrians that assimilated previous inhabitants (such as R1b and R1a) gave tribes such as
Enchelaeae, Autariates, Dardani, Maedus (Μαίδον), Taulantii and Perrhaebi
those that were assimilated in other people gave tribes such as Partheni, Daors and Dassaretae
that they had like 1/4 in grandson tribes in this case Pannonians
and 1/4 - 1/8 in Greatgrandsons (in this case Scordisci and Triballi)

this fits into roughly 1/5 of E-V13 in Serbs.. note that E-V13 in Serbs is not related to historical times and Albanians because there was never so large admixture of Albanians and E-V13 is rather homogenous in Serbs - around 20% even in Bosnia and Vojvodina) - thus it is older substratum... the homogenous spread indicates that big part of E-V13 went with them to north and came back with them... e.g. compare this to I2a2 in Croatia that has large regional variations from extreme values in Pagania areas, to around zero in Kaikavian speaking areas......which indicates more recent admixture..

Scordisci gave Serdi, and Tribali is name used by Byzantine authors as alternative for Serbs...
this indicates that those were proto-Serb tribes... I2a in origin, E-V13 due to mix with Illyrians and R1a (around 15%) due to Thracian (Balto-Slavic influence) .... I think that R1b (around 5%- 10% in Serbs) and part of E-V13 is in Serbs largely related to Vlachs...
and there is some influence of ancient Greeks in shape of J2 (up to 10%)

Scordisci and Triballi origin from Pannonians, and Pannonians from Autoriates...
could Croats tribal name come from Autoriates?

few preserved Illyrian words match Slavic much better than Albanian because they probably come from Roman Illyria (Dalmatia and Bosnia) that was settled by Pannonians (according to Strabo) and not by Illyrians proper (Albania and Montnegro)...

I always found E-V13 to be albanian ,doric and ionian islands, it was never in the northern part of illyria. When I say albanian I am talking area not people. so it must be either doric, moesian or vlach.

So , since rome did not neighbour serbs in its entire history ( not counting byzantine empire), we can safely say, the serbs borrowed these dacian-celtic words when they migrated with the goths........or are you saying that the celts mixed with the slavs on the black sea and brought these slavic words inland into pannonia.

I say this because the venetic language spoken by the carni and catali who knew also the celtic language lived in noricum and as far as the danube.
This is fact due to the amber road, running from the aestii tribe on the baltic sea, sold to germanic people inland who sold it to the carni who sold it to the veneti.
The veneti made protective amulets engraved with an eye and worn only by the women and children ( spiritual, mystic beliefs) discoverd in 2010 in este veneto.

This southern "illyrian" E-V13 fits in well with the serbs migrated route running from the southern balkans northward to pannonia
http://web.me.com/brewpe/Adam_BrouwerDNA/Adams_Haplogroup.html

Since historically, Byzantine dealt with slavic slaves from Azov ( called Tanaris in byzantine) it indicates, these slave dealing brought the slavs into thrace, these slavs eventually became servians ( later serbians). this is know fact also in the genoese and venetian arcives of the early middle ages as they too dealt and bought slaves from Tana ( venetian name) with permission from the byzantines. Venetian slavery was outlawed in 1435.

Note that E3b1a2-V13 represents 85% of the parent E3b1a-M78 clade which has greatest concentration in pristina and pec
 
I always found E-V13 to be albanian ,doric and ionian islands, it was never in the northern part of illyria. When I say albanian I am talking area not people. so it must be either doric, moesian or vlach.

So , since rome did not neighbour serbs in its entire history ( not counting byzantine empire), we can safely say, the serbs borrowed these dacian-celtic words when they migrated with the goths........or are you saying that the celts mixed with the slavs on the black sea and brought these slavic words inland into pannonia.


I say this because the venetic language spoken by the carni and catali who knew also the celtic language lived in noricum and as far as the danube.
This is fact due to the amber road, running from the aestii tribe on the baltic sea, sold to germanic people inland who sold it to the carni who sold it to the veneti.
The veneti made protective amulets engraved with an eye and worn only by the women and children ( spiritual, mystic beliefs) discoverd in 2010 in este veneto.

This southern "illyrian" E-V13 fits in well with the serbs migrated route running from the southern balkans northward to pannonia
http://web.me.com/brewpe/Adam_BrouwerDNA/Adams_Haplogroup.html

Since historically, Byzantine dealt with slavic slaves from Azov ( called Tanaris in byzantine) it indicates, these slave dealing brought the slavs into thrace, these slavs eventually became servians ( later serbians). this is know fact also in the genoese and venetian arcives of the early middle ages as they too dealt and bought slaves from Tana ( venetian name) with permission from the byzantines. Venetian slavery was outlawed in 1435.

Note that E3b1a2-V13 represents 85% of the parent E3b1a-M78 clade which has greatest concentration in pristina and pec




Well search for the E-v13 in North peloponese area, it is according some genetist more ancient than the Kossovo one,
and both are connected with Cyprus,
some family cases of E-v13 could mean that Cadmeians were E-V13,

Note that in North peloponese E-V13 is >44%

that is beacause Doric who were not E-V13 pushed in North (achains, alternate for myceneans, who were expeled by Dorians by Fight and Hate,)

in fact the connection of Doric with E-V13 is Wrong,
the only which can connected is the Cadmeians and the Achaians, or even Arcado-Cypriots

in some pure Doric Areas Like rodos and west Crete E-V13 drops drammatically.


Doric were Thessalians. means connected with Driopes IE people.
 
Well search for the E-v13 in North peloponese area, it is according some genetist more ancient than the Kossovo one,
and both are connected with Cyprus,
some family cases of E-v13 could mean that Cadmeians were E-V13,

Note that in North peloponese E-V13 is >44%

that is beacause Doric who were not E-V13 pushed in North (achains, alternate for myceneans, who were expeled by Dorians by Fight and Hate,)

in fact the connection of Doric with E-V13 is Wrong,
the only which can connected is the Cadmeians and the Achaians, or even Arcado-Cypriots

in some pure Doric Areas Like rodos and west Crete E-V13 drops drammatically.


Doric were Thessalians. means connected with Driopes IE people.

ok

But it still means that the serbs must have entered the balkans from the south and not the north initially as the E-v13 is very high %, unless it came from the moesians.

Still , it also means that the celtic - slavic words are from a dacian- celtic mix first and not directly from celt to slav.

then again the moesian where pushed in a south west direction by the dacians or not ?
 
ok

But it still means that the serbs must have entered the balkans from the south and not the north initially as the E-v13 is very high %, unless it came from the moesians.

Still , it also means that the celtic - slavic words are from a dacian- celtic mix first and not directly from celt to slav.

then again the moesian where pushed in a south west direction by the dacians or not ?


Moesians are connected with Mysians, that means Thracians not Daci,

the case of Daci is not that simple
for example Getae are connected with Dacia, Slavic are connected with Dacia,
[Δακια (Dagestan) is also a place in Caucasus next to Albania, Avars, coincidence? or it is connected with the Avars and Cumans in Hungary? well that theory is not value anymore due to linguistic and some other evidences.]

the case of Zalmoxis and Kongaionion (paradise, holy place) is like Kunge the Holy place the temple of Arvanites, they name all monasteries Kungi, and aionion is greek eternal, it is connected with a myth on far North of the eternity mountain,
in fact the suliotes name their sacred place Κουγκι Kugi.
it is also connected with Dagne posts, which I have to answer,
The connection of Daci with pure modern Slavic is wrong, many of their myths are connected with Greece and minor Asia, as also King names and some toponyms, alternate name is Getae,

the reconstructed dacian language we dont know how exactly it is but when i answer dagne surely you will recon many Greek elements, and if a good Albanian enters surely many elements would be connected,

now the case of Cadmeians means that some E-v13 was pushed North,
in Makedonian times could be also, as in Byzantine and in roman,
another E-V13 entered from sicily and Italy at Kastrioti time with Normands sending Italians to protect or invade land,

The serbin E-V13 is also from south,
the 1 must all realize is that E-V13 could be Greek-Pelasgian people who moved there, at romano byzantine times, and later with entrance of Slavic entered Moesia or stayed,
with time that mountain people accepted either the Serb either the Albanian nationality,
to understand Zanipolo an E-V13 of Kossovo or Nis or Fyrom if it is Orthodox is Serb or Fyromian (MaCedonian)
if it is muslim is surely Albanian,
if he lives in Moesia is Uniates who became catholics, more west of Kossovo E-V13 are Catholics
E-V13 south are orthodox as E-V13 in North peloponese,

according Historians before Kastrioti Serbs and Albanians many times unite against Greeks of Epirus,
also many times Albanians were allies with Normands and many times Enemies,

later the Kastrioti and the union of Orthodox and Catholics against Turks, as also the move of Hunjadi (Ουνιαδης) Huniade (what ever is written) and the move of 2 big Families from Moesia to Skodra is the major unification movement that unite Albanians,
In Kastrioti History we see Serbs from Montenegrin that supported him
the point is That Vallavan pasa and turks slowly won and majority of Albanians became Muslim and each moesian wanted to be Turk, was moved to that land.
if you search the story of after Kastrioti tribes you will understand,

E-V13 were not Albanians not Serbs Not Even Greeks, they started from Greece and spread, mostly North, they were romaniazed or thracianized etc,
later they enter the today ethnicities,

for example 1 Greeco-Thracian tribe still names the Serbs Triboli,
their inner name is Srpski (maybe i write it wrong) Srpcka
the Serbia is an exonym of Centum people who can pronounce that many non vowel word.

now the case of Celtic or Slavic,
simply I say that scordisci = pure Celtic
Pannoni = Celto Thracian
Tribali = pure thracian
Srpcki = pure Slavic
choose and pick
simply that Celto thracian culture became a new nation with the unification movement of Slavic entrance at 6th century, and gain literature and written speech with Cyrillic of Moravia,
the same with Albanians, with 1 difference,
Maniakis manage to organise them to an army,
later Kastrioti manage to unite all the sub minorities, and vallavan pasa also
Albanians Cristians who lost by Alban-Turks Muslim, But the winners took the symbol and the story of the loser, Albanians are 75% muslim but their National hero is a Christian who according many searchers was Geg, according others Fyromian-Slavic Macedonian, and according others Greek Makedonia, Vallavan pasa is not their national Hero.

simply due to religion and last wars the wounds are always open.

to understand the problem try with Bosnia,
Bosnians are same with Serbs ( a big %), but the religion change culture and they became a new nation, !!!!!!!!!!! in 2000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if you ask an Albanian Nationalist he will tell you they are Albanians,
if you Ask a Serbian he will tell you they are muslim Serbs,
If you ask a Turk, he will say they are Turks,
if you ask a Croatian he will Say they they are Croats,
If you ask a Bosnian, he will say that they are the ancient Illyrians pure, that suffered from Serbs Croats and Turks,
maybe you will listen that they are the only true Illyrians, and Illyrians spoke Slavo-Turkish
 
as per link below , up to year 2009 , zero celtic y-dna ( u-152) found in slav people

http://www.davidkfaux.org/LaTene_Celt_R1b1c10_part2.pdf

I really do not know where you are leading this thread.


then ok my question is answered, but truth is i am not that full,
why in my mind is nailed the idea of IE be the language of I people,
with Logic I accept R1b and R1a but with heart no,
whatever, ty zanipolo.
 
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for example 1 Greeco-Thracian tribe still names the Serbs Triboli,
their inner name is Srpski (maybe i write it wrong) Srpcka
the Serbia is an exonym of Centum people who can pronounce that many non vowel word.

Serbia is not exonym.... Srpcka is not correct...

in Serbian language:

people/tribe: Srbi (Serbs)
land: Srbija (serbia)
language: srpski jezik (serbian language or language that belongs to Serbs)

from "Srbi"to "srpski" is about grammar rule that changes 'b'to 'p' in certain cases...

note suffix "-ski" added to root word "Srb" and grammar rule that changes 'b'to 'p' when it is in front of 's'as it is hard to pronounce it otherwise....the rule is called "Assimilation (linguistics)" in serbian is "jednacenje po zvucnosti" (sound equalization)

essentially there are two group of consonants let's call them "loud" and "silent"

loud - b, g , d, z, ž, đ, dž
silent - p, k, t, ć, š, s ,č, f, h, c

in a word that has two consecutive consonants, first one will go to its pair from other group in order to be of same type as second consonant..... it sounds complicated as a rule, but it is natural way to pronounce subsequent consonants in same category...

example of rule
vrabac (sparrow) -> vrab(a)ci (adding "i" for plural and losing 'a' according to another rule) -> vrapci (sparrows) (loud 'b' goes into its pair silent 'p' because next consonant 'c' is silent



in Bosnia rebel Serbs have named their country in 90s "Srpska" as in "Serbian/ belonging to Serbs"
root word is Srb, adding is "-ska" to denote ownership over female noun "republika" (republic) and 'srbska" has two consecutive consonants 'bs' where secound one is from silent group so the first one goes to silent group as well:
'bs'->'ps' thus 'srbska' -> 'srpska'



in language

now the case of Celtic or Slavic,
simply I say that scordisci = pure Celtic
Pannoni = Celto Thracian
Tribali = pure thracian
Srpcki = pure Slavic
choose and pick

there is wide agreement among Slavic ethnologists and linguists that tribal name "Srbi" (Serbs) is not a word of slavic origin...

personally I find word "Srp" which means "sickle" a possible slavic root.... I see that google translate in fact translate "srp" as "crescent" as well... think it was a bit more arhaic usage.... so probably "srp" is about shape of crescent and sickle... e.g. as the ones in Serbian coat of arms

330px-Coat_of_arms_of_Serbia_small_%282004_-_2010%29.svg.png


I do not think coat of arms is copy of Byzantine Paleologi dinasty one with 4 'B' instead of sickles ...
(King of Kings, Ruling Over Rulers (Βασιλεὺς Βασιλέων Βασιλεύων Βασιλευόντων/Βασιλεῦσι, Basileus Basileon Basileuon Basileuonton/Basileusi).)

120px-Palaiologos-Dynasty.svg.png


Paleologi dinasty origin from theme of Macedonia that was heavily settled by Serbs at the time... so, the coat of arms pattern may have travelled other way around..... anyway key difference is in "sickle" vs. letter 'B'

look at coat of arms of 'house of Mrnjavcevic" Serbian nobles from Macedonia from 13th and 14th century

Herb_mrnjavcevici.jpg


btw. the Celtic cross is similar pattern of 4 "sickles" around a cross

in simple version sickles are turned other way around - towards interior
100px-CelticCross.svg.png


in more complex versions you can also see inner sickles oriented towards exterior that make cross - and those inner sickles are identical as the one on coat of arms of house of Mrnjavcevici given above...

400px-Monasterboice_12.jpg


Gaelic_Athletic_Association.png
 
How yes no many times you ask the connection of Serbian and Crotians,

in greece it is difficult 2 languages,
1 is turkish due a strange moves with tongue,
2 is south slavic cause they use little vowel,

the serbs have a history that entered from danube, move down to bardar, move west to bosna and montenegro, move east to moesia, and again move north to voivodina, when ever another population enter balkans Serbs move east-west north south, their limits are from montenegro to romania and from greece to Hungary
maybe you are right, but since it is not an exonym but an inner name, then the cases of the other names like scordiski Pannoni and tribaldi means that they are exonyms, then the SRB must be either from 1 and only 1 wider family, (only celtic, or only Thracian or only Slavic)
 
btw. note the sickle/crescent as horns on helmets of Sherden/sherdana sea peoples
whose tribal name is origin for place name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

seapeoples18.jpg

seapeoples17.jpg

seapeoples14.jpg


now, compare Sherdana with non-Greek names for Scordus mountain , and it is clear that Scordisci is Greek exonym of Celtic version of some tribal name probably of Shardana....

Scordus in Greek
Šar planina (Šar mountain) in south Slavic
Shar Dagh in Ottoman Turkish
Malet e Sharrit in Albanian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Šar_Mountains

in fact isn't turkish or Asia minor word Shar Dagh almost the same as Shardana?

Josephus related the Biblical figure Gomer to Galatia (or perhaps to Gaul in general). "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, [Galls,] but were then called Gomerites." Antiquities of the Jews, I:6. Others have related Gomer to Cimmerians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

Josephus placed Gomer and the "Gomerites" in Anatolian Galatia: "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, but were then called Gomerites."[3] Galatia in fact takes its name from the ancient Gauls (Celts) who settled there. However, the later Christian writer Hippolytus of Rome in c. 234 assigned Gomer as the ancestor of the Cappadocians, neighbours of the Galatians.[4] Jerome (c. 390) and Isidore of Seville (c. 600) followed Josephus' identification of Gomer with the Galatians, Gauls and Celts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomer

look at Thraco-Cimmerians findings in Europe
Thraco-Cimmerian.png


I2a spread, west linear potery spread, Celts, early Slavs spread... same directions and locations... I think Slavs are born out of east Celtic state... State of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it.... Seneca's Serians in Europe are mentioned in relation to Danube (daring to cross frozen Danube on feet) and in relation to Scythians (rulling over them)... Scythians are R1a, thus proto-Slavs, so Serians/Zeruiani can be only I2a2... which is haplogroup dominant in Serbs....

note Sardinians being similar tribal name to Scordisci and Sardana and being related to I2a1 haplogroup...


compare Šar planina,Shar Dagh, and Malet e Sharrit with tribal name Serians/Serres...

to Sherdana related Lycians (whose several later rulers were called Sarpe-don) are Lukka sea peoples... note that Asia minor is area of influence of Cimmerians... note that some historians think that Cimmerians were original Celts...that in Cappadocia where Cimmerians settled, Strabo finds white Syrians and now we find I2a in Kurds... much later Byzantine emperor writes that Serbs origin from white Serbs who came from area (whose description only fits to Bohemia) where they have also originally dwellt... while in same time Bavarian geographer writes that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it.... aren't Zeruiani clearly the same as Seneca's Serians (also known as Serres)...aren't they likely same people as Cimmerians / white Syrians? and what about white Syrians / white Serbs?

in my opinion those are names of a proto-serb tribe (from whom genetically not just modern Serbs origin but I2a people, with distinction that Serbs kept close to original tribal name... ) and they might have been Cimmerians (because according to Seneca they live among Sarmatians in Caspian highlands, and rule over Scythians in Europe, which means they are not Scythians and not Sarmatians, which leaves only Cimmerians as candidates only known historical tribes with such large Euroasian stretch are Scythians, Sarmatians and Cimmerians) and Cimmerians were likely Celtic... note that Gomer is thought to be same as Cimmerians and that some Roman historians held that word German (origin of word is gomer) means "seed" and is about true, original Celts... in fact Gomer relation suggest that this is not just about I2a but also about I2b (mark of ancestors of Germanic people)
 
well understand the skudra case first,

Sherdana have 1 horn helmet. 2 balkanic populations had 1 horn helmet,
the Brygians and the Makedonians,

Surd alternate word for Φυλακαι in makedonia is Brygian origin
in fact if Surd is Kurd, that means Brygians moved to minor asia and not kurds to balkan,

exactly what the Skudra is telling us,
probably there was another tribe before Brygians or bithini that moved from balkans to minor asia,

That means that Thracians were Celtic and not Baltic,

the DNA of Brygian is the key,
note the case of Brygians,
plz seardch the Brygians,

Brygians were celtic or Baltic?


now to make clear the way.

when the unification movement of serbia had happened,
I mean when Serbians are considered as stated nation,
and not tribal move?



part 2



Now that language is P-Celtic,

Galatian dialect, Gaulish

Does it sound to you like south slavic?

we both know about Galatian Celts that moved to minor asia,

probably a dialect of gaulish both P-Celtic,


The other case is the Noric which is connected with Balkans via Slovenia.

now we have 2 choices

1 is the Brygians being celtic and reach Greece
2 the Noric moved south to reach Greece and east to pannoni (scordisci serdi etc)


There is Celtic Blood in Balkans especially around Dinaric alps, west and north.

P-Celtic incorporates the following:

 
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now, compare Sherdana with non-Greek names for Scordus mountain , and it is clear that Scordisci is Greek exonym of Celtic version of some tribal name probably of Shardana....

Scordus in Greek
Šar planina (Šar mountain) in south Slavic
Shar Dagh in Ottoman Turkish
Malet e Sharrit in Albanian

Livy said that the Scordisci where germanic

Titus Livius, Ab Urbe Condita XL, 57
'the Scordisci will let the Bastarnae pass without difficulty; their languages
and customs are, after all, very similar, and the Scordisi may well join up with
the Bastarnae

Since the Bastanae are germanic across the danube ( north side ) then how can these scordisci be anything but germanic -celtic

In Roman text , they always said
gallia-celtic for celts from modern France.
germania-celtic ( or keltic) for celts from the austrain alps and east odf there.

maybe you are thinking of later on after the goths because the scordisci did last a long time.
 
Hmm... I don't like where this thread is going.

How yes no: I've said before you cannot just randomly equate d / b etc. Linguistics just do not work that way. Especially, what have biblical names to do there? Gomer? I mean, you cannot take the bible for full. Vague supposition over vague supposition. Also, again chromosomal tribalism (wasn't this supposed to be a linguistics thread?). This leads into nowhere, though I must admit that I did have that feeling from the start.

Livy said that the Scordisci where germanic

Titus Livius, Ab Urbe Condita XL, 57
'the Scordisci will let the Bastarnae pass without difficulty; their languages
and customs are, after all, very similar, and the Scordisi may well join up with
the Bastarnae

Since the Bastanae are germanic across the danube ( north side ) then how can these scordisci be anything but germanic -celtic

In Roman text , they always said
gallia-celtic for celts from modern France.
germania-celtic ( or keltic) for celts from the austrain alps and east odf there.

maybe you are thinking of later on after the goths because the scordisci did last a long time.

Strabo considers the Scordisci variably to be Celtic (Book VII, chapter 3.2) or Galatian (Book VII, chapters 2.2 and 5.2) and mentions them together with the Boii and the Taurisci. Having said that, I have my doubts that the name "Scordisci" is actually even Celtic in etymology.

EDIT: Having said that, "Scor-" could be Celtic in etymology (it's attested in Old Irish as "Scor" - "encampment, ceasing"). I'm unsure about the second part.
 
Hmm... I don't like where this thread is going.

How yes no: I've said before you cannot just randomly equate d / b etc. Linguistics just do not work that way. Especially, what have biblical names to do there? Gomer? I mean, you cannot take the bible for full. Vague supposition over vague supposition. Also, again chromosomal tribalism (wasn't this supposed to be a linguistics thread?). This leads into nowhere, though I must admit that I did have that feeling from the start.



Strabo considers the Scordisci variably to be Celtic (Book VII, chapter 3.2) or Galatian (Book VII, chapters 2.2 and 5.2) and mentions them together with the Boii and the Taurisci. Having said that, I have my doubts that the name "Scordisci" is actually even Celtic in etymology.

EDIT: Having said that, "Scor-" could be Celtic in etymology (it's attested in Old Irish as "Scor" - "encampment, ceasing"). I'm unsure about the second part.


unless i misread the book, it says the name of scordisci came from the scordus mountains of modern day macedonia. It was use as a meeting place for the failed celtic invasion of greece, the remaining celtic tribes that particpated in the invasion renamed themselves Scordisci..........I cannot remember what they where previously called.

then again, you scor meaning might make sense as well.......encampment or ceased to exist as original named tribes
 
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