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Thread: What if Germany had won the war?

  1. #51
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    When I saw the title of the thread, I asked to myself "which one?".

    In reality, the WW II was a "continuation", or if you like a somehow necessary consequence of how the things were settled (or not) in the first one.

    This thread somehow attracted me for some time, but it was not until I read this article in Asia Times that I decided to participate:

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/ML15Ad01.html

    The article by an Italian "expert about China", deals with paralelism between the trayectory of Germany in the XX Century and that of China in the lasts and coming years... as scientific, economical and military powers that by its mere existance, "subvert" the established "status quo".

    (By the way, it includes a comment or two about the issue of "German arrogance", that I think were mentioned recently on the forum)

    By the way, it is my opportunity to recomend to "Muzungu" and "Cimerianbroke" this book:

    http://www.amazon.de/Aufstieg-Unterg.../dp/3548265081

    On the other hand, I don't know if in Germany the subject is popular, but at least in the literature in English, every so often appear these fictions novels about the posibility of a Germany victory in WWII, some of them even taken to the screen...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland_(novel)

    Now, answering the direct question posed by @edao... (in the understanding that my answers reflect my personal values)

    Quote Originally Posted by edao View Post
    Would Europe be a better place to live if Germany had won the war?
    No.

    Certainly not for Jews, Gipsis and a lot of minorities, religious, racial and of sexual preferences.

    These would have been exterminated altogether.

    Then the Slavs would have been enslaved and subject to slow genocide (almost all Eastern Europe).

    Even the "Mischlinge" from South Europeans were undesired (e.g. with Italians and Greeks).

    Europe could have been "better", but only to Germans.

    Would a united Europe run by Germany have stopped America dominating the world in the way it has over the last 50 years?
    I don't know.

    What role would a German Empire have played in the cold war?
    There would have been no cold war, at least not against the USSR/Russia... but probably one between the USA and Europe.

    Anyway, for that to happen once the war actually happen, the Germans must have defeated the USA and/or the Russians, which actually would have been very difficult.

    As an example, lets remember that the Russians sustained arround 7-8 million casualties in 1941 alone. And they were able to stop the Wehrmacht and become a more efficient and large war machine every succesive year of the war.

    The Americans had more industry than Germany, and at the end, the vision to have A-bombs by 1945.

    Victory of Germany after 1942: Impossible.

    Would we be speaking German and would that be a bad thing?
    German is a beautiful language (once you more or less understand its complexities).

    I don't think that the only reasons that English is so widespread is only because of colonialism, trade, and the popularity of the Angloamerican culture. English is a very simple an easy language to learn.

    Even other Europeans, do not make the effort learn much German.

    Maybe some of us will have some confirmation about it in the case of future internationalitation (or not) of Chinese.

    Looking at the current crisis Germany seems by far to be the best run country in Europe, they now seem to be dictating terms of economic management to half of Europe via the back door. Germany are now turning away from Nuclear power and have an economy based more on manufacturing real things instead of playing with number in financial casinos.
    Germany has been doing better than most other countries in Europe. One or two years ago, in a theme about Turkey, I said that Germany (and Turkey) will survive better an economic crisis than some other countries that dedicated themselves to not very productive things, including some in the South dedicated, whose finances weren mostly about money laundering.

    Even when I do not hold for impossible that Germany too could show signs of weakness in the following years (they are Germans, not Martians), I admit that they are showing themseves as the great economical and historical force that was begining to be evident at the begining of the XX Century, and it seems that its rise as conductor of Europe, was finally irrepresible.

    Regards.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anton, Bear's den View Post
    Most likely that Europe could turn into a radioactive desert because for USA would be much easier to nuke nazis than fight in conventional war + Europe with nazis domination is place without Slavic nations, Jews and in such case Europe totally depend from brain of one mad dictator with extremely racist views, his sick head could one day give birth to the idea that all countries which has been defeated by Germany have not right to exist because they are "inferior race".
    Just check casualties of USSR, there in 2 times more civilian casualties than military. This shows the methods and intentions of the Wehrmacht.
    Where do you think the ability to produce nuclear weapons came from? Which country developed the first jet aircraft?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canek View Post
    If Germany had won the war it would have been a huge genocide in the iberian peninsula due to the "ethnic cleaning".
    Actually, I think that politically the Spaniards maneuvered pretty good in WW II... besides the Spanish Civil War (which coud be considered as a prelude of WW II), the Spaniards resisted attempts of Hitler to make them enter the war. And altough their sympathies were with the Axis and in fact they sended volunteers to the Russian Front, they managed to walk away without suffering foreign occupation, and warfare own territory.

    Besides that, the Spaniards were respected by Germans and Russians as good fighters. When Romanian, Hungarian and Italian divisions melted in front of the Soviet attacks, the Spaniards showed at least the resistance of the German divisions, as showed in battles like Krasny Bor.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krasny_Bor

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division

    Regards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spion Stirlitz View Post
    Act

    Besides that, the Spaniards were respected by Germans and Russians as good fighters. When Romanian, Hungarian and Italian divisions melted in front of the Soviet attacks, the Spaniards showed at least the resistance of the German divisions, as showed in battles like Krasny Bor.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krasny_Bor

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division

    Regards.
    When I was in Poland, I knew that best soldiers are polish. When I came to Canada I've leaned that Germans feared canadian soldiers the most. If you go to US, Russia, Japan, Spain, England, etc, you will learn that they had best soldiers doring WWII

    I just wonder if this is the same for France and Italy? Most of us know only the oposit from international point of view about these two.

    PS. No offence, it is not my point of view. It is what people are saying.

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    At least disgusting MTV would not exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    When I was in Poland, I knew that best soldiers are polish. When I came to Canada I've leaned that Germans feared canadian soldiers the most. If you go to US, Russia, Japan, Spain, England, etc, you will learn that they had best soldiers doring WWII
    I think that is a most natural and healthy thing, specially when we consider what a soldier is all about.

    A soldier without patriotism, or without the patriotic suport of its people, is to pitty.

    I just wonder if this is the same for France and Italy? Most of us know only the oposit from international point of view about these two.
    I think that @Maciamo, or another user, put time ago a theme with the title "Are the French weak-kneeded", or something.

    mmm... here it is:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...-as-weak-kneed

    In reality, the military history of France is mostly a history of bravery. What happened, is that the Americans didn't liked the rapid fall of France in WW II, and then there was this knee-jerk propaganda about "cheese, monkeys and surrendering".

    Howerver, how many countries could have resisted things like the battle of Verdun, in WW I? There (in a single battle) the French lose 2 - 3 more people than the Americans in the whole WW II !!.

    The problem is when you let what others think of you affect you.

    The shame is when we swallow propaganda and clichees created by othes, without doing a personal "homework" to verify in reliable sources, this or that.

    That applies no only to this matter - military history- , but all the stereotypes that we see around, specially when they come from Hollywood, or being sold by the press.

    I for example, don't know much (o better say, nothing) about, let's say, Robert Mugabe... I only know that he is presented in the western Press as an incredible corrupt and inept African president. Maybe what they say about him is true... but I will not be repeating the same things, or buy it, until I myself, have gone to serious sources, and do a little homwork for myself.

    ++++++++++++++++

    About the Italians, is more or less the same as with the French. I didn't know that the Italians showed any cowardice in WW I, or anytime before.

    In WW II, they had problems from the begining:

    a.) Mussolini entered the war with a cynical attitude ("to seat in the negotiations table"), with an unmotivated public opinion.

    b.) From the start, they performed bad against the Greek.

    c.) They didn't had really the means for a mechanized war in the Sahara against the British.

    d.) They surrendered ("betrayed" the Germans) when the allies began to invade and bomb Italian cities.

    Actually, (d.) was pretty much intelligent, and the logical thing to do. Although there was a fierce battle in Italy anyway, at least much of the cultural heritage of Italy, specially Rome, was preserved.

    The Germans fought fiercely to the end, in a lost cause, and lost uselessly much of their architectural heritage.

    But this are my very personal points of view.

    PS. No offence, it is not my point of view. It is what people are saying.
    I take no offence. Why should I?

    We are here just amicably exchanging points of view.

    Regards.

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    I have a better question: What would have happened if Cruise ....oops I mean von Stauffenberg had succeeded in July 1944?

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    noting would happen...
    we would all now write in forum in German, and by now fascist politicians would be replaced by some more peaceful people.....
    so there would be EU with single language - German... and in villages when we visit grandparents we would still speak own languages...

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    Hitler was in his 60s at the end of the war and his co-ideologues
    were also advancing in age. There had already been an assasination
    attempt. In that light, how soon would infighting have made many
    changes (I can't imagine what) in the aftermath of a German win?

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    The world would be in chaos.

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    Germany wouldn't have won the war because crazy loon was in power there. The arrogance and blind believe in might of their armies was a demise and worst enemy of Japan and Germany.

    If someone more stoic was in power in Germany and emperor of Japan was more pragmatic, they would attack Soviet Union from two sides, finishing it off before they made moves against US. They would consolidate their holdings; Germany: whole Europe, Middle east and Africa; Japan: most of Asia, Australia and pacific islands. Now, their combined GDP and resources would be greater than those of US. Now they would be ready to fight US, though I'm still not convinced if US would loose, I'm not saying win, but just survive.
    US would still be the first one with A bomb, a third of global GDP, and top technologies, with stratospheric bombers to deliver A bomb.
    We are lucky, it didn't turn this way, and we didn't want to see the total war with 1950 armament. Even if Germany won at the end, we would be living in devastated post atom war world.

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    As an American with French/German/Scot/Welsh Roots I would like to chime in to defend my country. First I do not think we dominate the world not in the way the European powers did. In a nut shell we are you I have Family members buried in Europe from the first and second world wars that went to fight for wars that did not really affect us. I fought in the Iraq war in 2008 I would love to see a perfect world with perfect people. But we descend from waring tribes and warfare is in our blood and there it will stay. If Germany would have won the war. I think with the exception of people it deemed subhuman life would have went on. without the second world war we would not have near the technological advances we have today. War always gives birth to innovations. But then again I don't blame Germany as a whole people in general tend to believe what their government tells them lies or truth none of us are free of that
    Last edited by L.D.Brousse; 11-03-12 at 17:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L.D.Brousse View Post
    First I do not think we dominate the world not in the way the European powers did.
    A double negative! I assume you meant the single negative form of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.D.Brousse View Post
    In a nut shell we are you I have Family members buried in Europe from the first and second world wars that went to fight for wars that did not really affect us.
    WWI and WWII didn't affect the US? Are you aware of the Lusitania and Pearl Harbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.D.Brousse View Post
    without the second world war we would not have near the technological advances we have today. War always gives birth to innovations.
    I dispute this. Although WWII accelerated military development, things like nuclear theory were developing independently of the war. Besides, other wars certainly would have had the same accelerating effect, and we're not talking about what would have happened if WWII hadn't happened, we're talking about what would have happened if Germany had won, but WWII still happened.

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    WWI and WWII didn't affect the US? Are you aware of the Lusitania and Pearl Harbor?


    Japan is not Germany. The German embassy took out ads warning passengers not to sail on the Lusitania. And dives to the wreck have show it appeared to have carried munitions So I fault my own government for using a civilian ships with passengers to haul war material. Sir I'm more than aware of the wars that The US has fought in. My family has been fighting them since the French and Indian wars myself included

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    Quote Originally Posted by L.D.Brousse View Post
    Japan is not Germany.
    Yes, but they were allies of Germany, and there was a mutual declaration of war between the US and Germany in response to the US declaring war on Japan.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.D.Brousse View Post
    The German embassy took out ads warning passengers not to sail on the Lusitania. And dives to the wreck have show it appeared to have carried munitions So I fault my own government for using a civilian ships with passengers to haul war material.
    It was more the UK's fault that they were carrying munitions on a civilian ship. Either way, I was showing an example of how WWI most certainly did affect the US, regardless of whether or not the entry of the US into the war was justified. It wasn't for purely selfless reasons that the US joined the war, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.D.Brousse View Post
    Sir I'm more than aware of the wars that The US has fought in. My family has been fighting them since the French and Indian wars myself included
    OK, and my family goes back to Bacon's Rebellion, if we're trying to appeal to family history here. Good to know you're up to speed on US military history, that's better than most Americans.

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