Politics Historian calls not to forget that Germany owes a great debt to Greece

Yes, but they still know that nothing is forever.

The Marshall Plan in Spain did not leave that has already seen the movie Welcome Mr. Marshall passed away. hehe
 
Anton said:
I think that's retarded idea to ask reparations from Germany just because Greeks can not pay their debts today, time to turn the page of WWII finally, people.
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I don't think the point of this is to bring up WW2, but just to bring up the point of how european peoples treated Germany when they had masive debt to how the german government is now treating another with the same problem they had.
 
27 june 2011

source DER Spiegel

117 million E were given as gift to Greek politician by Ferrostaal
so to buy 4 submarines at a cost of 1.6 billion E

the submarines were classified as thrash by Greek officers cause they 'bound' above water, and are not well drive in medium and slow speeds,
Greek navy never delivered them due to their problems,
Yet politicians manage to sign part of agreement by taking 117 Million E !!!!
 
iapetoc said:
27 june 2011

source DER Spiegel

117 million E were given as gift to Greek politician by Ferrostaal
so to buy 4 submarines at a cost of 1.6 billion E

the submarines were classified as thrash by Greek officers cause they 'bound' above water, and are not well drive in medium and slow speeds,
Greek navy never delivered them due to their problems,
Yet politicians manage to sign part of agreement by taking 117 Million E !!!!
Click to expand...

But existed also kinda mini Greek-Turkish cold war before the crisis, is not it? As I know Greece spent pretty big percentage of GDP (4.3%) on the armed forces, majority of European countries spent only around 1%. Greece provides around 200 thousands army size with 11 million population, for comparison Germany have around 180-200 thousands military size with 80 million population or Canada which have 60 thousands military size with 34 million population.
Greeks had low threshold of retirement (in some cases already from 53 years of age) combined with high lifetime among population.
In Greece, the siesta is widespread, from 1pm to 5.30pm time of the rest.
+ Add the massive tax evasion & large social costs of government before the crisis = nothing surprising in today's financial problems really.
 
Anton said:
But existed also kinda mini Greek-Turkish cold war before the crisis, is not it? As I know Greece spent pretty big percentage of GDP on the armed forces. Greece provides around 200 thousands army size with 11 million population, for comparison Germany have around 180-200 thousands military size with 80 million population or Canada which have 60 thousands military size with 34 million population.
Greeks had low threshold of retirement (in some cases already from 53 years of age)
In Greece, the siesta is widespread, from 1pm to 5.30pm time of the rest.
+ Add the massive tax evasion & large social costs of government before the crisis = nothing surprising in today's financial problems really.
Click to expand...


correct and that is the problem

when Greece 160 000 army and 1 of the most modern according size, like in 70 -80,
the debt was not even 1/3 and no economical crisis,
since Greece stop and drop to 60 000 army, problems start,

Are trying to find logic in Greek crisis?

just compare the case or russian-East German Tanks and Multi-Rocket, 30% was bought by Greeks
from that 1/2 was free according the agreement and the other 1/2 was x3 times the przes that other buy,
that is the problem with Greece,
I will not name minister,
just imagiane that today minister of economy is the one who make the law so politicians not to go in judge as long are elected, and after 5 years all done (quilty or not) must checked only by politicians,

That means that a quilty politician must be judged first by other politician and then by judges!!!!!!!! and if we find any scandal after 5 years, wow he is innocent man,

the problem of Greece, the real one, is the parties, the second is the spend,
Special olympics case yesterday,
only begin ceremony cost 10 000 000 E while the one before cost 2 300 000,

7 700 000 E more than the last one, while the result was the same.
why?
cause all that 7 700 000 went to party members and half back to party, the same tactic

the time that country is in Debt they spend 40 000 000 than the last Special and 35 000 000 than the donators give,
why?
that is the problem of Greece,
an economic shearch gave 10% of greeks to have money as the depth in foreign countries,
and since you maybe do not know just search how much money, greek money are in Abhaz
and jow much in ucraine
1/3 of politians since 1991 have !!!!!!! 120 000 000 000 E in Eu banks!!!!!
and they tax me, my few m2 house and field?

to understand the case remember about the Abramovic vs Putin

in dt time they make the immigrants Greeks to vote them if they are party members just to vote them,
before 1990 and especially at 50-60-70s the elections had 70-85% of the total written to vote,
today they have 50-55% the most,
they make goverment with 25% of greek people,


now to return to subject
crisis is IMF worker earned 26 000 000 000 E in 1 night, ty,
 
Spain owes an apology to all latin america, ecuatorial guinea and phillipines for the crimes they commited... but they have never say a word of course.
 
Anton said:
But existed also kinda mini Greek-Turkish cold war before the crisis, is not it? As I know Greece spent pretty big percentage of GDP (4.3%) on the armed forces, majority of European countries spent only around 1%. Greece provides around 200 thousands army size with 11 million population, for comparison Germany have around 180-200 thousands military size with 80 million population or Canada which have 60 thousands military size with 34 million population.
Greeks had low threshold of retirement (in some cases already from 53 years of age) combined with high lifetime among population.
In Greece, the siesta is widespread, from 1pm to 5.30pm time of the rest.
+ Add the massive tax evasion & large social costs of government before the crisis = nothing surprising in today's financial problems really.
Click to expand...

Good points. The whole situation doesn't surprise all the world. It only surprises Greeks in Greece,...for some unexplained reason, lol.
 
Anton said:
In Greece, the siesta is widespread, from 1pm to 5.30pm time of the rest.
Click to expand...

Don't be fooled by the siesta Anton. The times vary and depend where in Greece you are and what you do but winter trading hours in my area are, 8.30am - 2pm then again in the evening from 5.30pm till 9 or 10pm, 6 days a week. Summer trading hours are 8.30am- 2pm and again from 5.30pm -1 or 2am, 7 days a week. The hours worked are actually longer than many other countries and the siesta is needed, I've done it and it is impossible to work those hours without the afternoon break.

It is only the public service sector or the government departments who work from 8.30am - 1.30pm, then they are finished for the day! The rest of your assessment on Greece is fairly accurate though.
 
Antigone said:
Don't be fooled by the siesta Anton. The times vary and depend where in Greece you are and what you do but winter trading hours in my area are, 8.30am - 2pm then again in the evening from 5.30pm till 9 or 10pm, 6 days a week. Summer trading hours are 8.30am- 2pm and again from 5.30pm -1 or 2am, 7 days a week. The hours worked are actually longer than many other countries and the siesta is needed, I've done it and it is impossible to work those hours without the afternoon break.

It is only the public service sector or the government departments who work from 8.30am - 1.30pm, then they are finished for the day! The rest of your assessment on Greece is fairly accurate though.
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what about the goverment and private banks? and customs offices?
 
Anton said:
But existed also kinda mini Greek-Turkish cold war before the crisis, is not it? As I know Greece spent pretty big percentage of GDP (4.3%) on the armed forces, majority of European countries spent only around 1%. Greece provides around 200 thousands army size with 11 million population, for comparison Germany have around 180-200 thousands military size with 80 million population or Canada which have 60 thousands military size with 34 million population.
Greeks had low threshold of retirement (in some cases already from 53 years of age) combined with high lifetime among population.
In Greece, the siesta is widespread, from 1pm to 5.30pm time of the rest.
+ Add the massive tax evasion & large social costs of government before the crisis = nothing surprising in today's financial problems really.
Click to expand...


barbarian said:
what about the goverment and private banks? and customs offices?
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well to be honest that measures are the ones that all accepted,

No body has denied to them,
that was memorantum 1
today is the memorantum 2
another story, Greece accepted measures for memorantum1

now about work,
super markets big stores,
from 9 to 6 or 9 to 9,
smaller shops family corp,
thessaloniki (each area has its own rules) winter,
9-2:30, 5:30-9:00
food shops, from 05:00 to 3:00 (morning food) or 13:00-02:00 eveming food. 24 h the big chains

public services, depends on service,
banks start at 7:30 end at 15:30-16:00 open time 8-14:00 for public

the problem is not services but syndicate masters and party members,
for example electricity,
at 500 people are syndicate masters, with half work,
200 workers are payed just to make party advertisement
that is a problem,

THE MAIN PROBLEM OF GREECE IS NOT THE PUBLIC SERVICES PPEOPLE ARE PUSHED THERE DUE TO UNEMPLOYMENT
THE MAIN PROBLEM IS DE-INDUSTRLIAZATION THAT STARTED AFTER 1978,

to understand the issue compare the industry of ex-East block in 1970 production, and at late 80's
was the industrial production of Russia same?
How many Russians went else for 'better life'?

IMMIGRANTS ARE BORN FROM 3 REASONS

1) Despaired people
2) fortune hunters and criminals
3) tv show cinema of a promising paradise, (american dream theory)


there was an article in Le mond, greeks work more than germans and have only 25 days holidays,
 
barbarian said:
what about the goverment and private banks? and customs offices?
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All government offices, local council, tax, welfare or whatever work from 8.30am until they close at 1.30pm. Government employees are not exactly overworked are they? As airplanes and ships arrive 24hrs a day so customs are working in shifts for all of that time and bank hours are as iapetoc states above.
 
iapetoc said:
w.
THE MAIN PROBLEM OF GREECE IS NOT THE PUBLIC SERVICES PPEOPLE ARE PUSHED THERE DUE TO UNEMPLOYMENT
THE MAIN PROBLEM IS DE-INDUSTRLIAZATION THAT STARTED AFTER 1978,
Click to expand...
i am not sure about that. after the rise of china and india industrialized countries also in big trouble because of the increasing emtia prices and incompetitive rate of chinese products. these days only the countries having abundant natural source are comfortable like russia, norway etc.

if greeces main income is service, it is a big advantage for the country. it means that with the growing economy in the world your income will increase. and you are away from the competition of china.

however, if you dont have industry, it means that you have an unemployment problem. US has similar problem, however it is not a big problem for them since they can print brand new dollars.

greece cannot print euro, so they must increase their income in the long run, and decrease their expenditure in the short term. you cannot touch the companies in the capitalist system, so the workers will pay the bill.

i believe both greece must cut their military and public spendings, and understand that turkey is not their enemy (turkey only hate greece, just like greece hates turkey). and focus on energy investment, efficient agriculture.
 
barbarian said:
i am not sure about that. after the rise of china and india industrialized countries also in big trouble because of the increasing emtia prices and incompetitive rate of chinese products. these days only the countries having abundant natural source are comfortable like russia, norway etc.

if greeces main income is service, it is a big advantage for the country. it means that with the growing economy in the world your income will increase. and you are away from the competition of china.

however, if you dont have industry, it means that you have an unemployment problem. US has similar problem, however it is not a big problem for them since they can print brand new dollars.

greece cannot print euro, so they must increase their income in the long run, and decrease their expenditure in the short term. you cannot touch the companies in the capitalist system, so the workers will pay the bill.

i believe both greece must cut their military and public spendings, and understand that turkey is not their enemy (turkey only hate greece, just like greece hates turkey). and focus on energy investment, efficient agriculture.
Click to expand...


the case of hate is wnother story,
the case of grey zones story, the case of 12 miles another story, and the case of oil also another,
we both know that the case is ok peace but be ready for war,
the case of 1974 cyprus and 1998 Imia-karntak is a clear case of seek and hiding,

if you know well the history of Turkish economy then let me remind the Esso, Pirelli and another one corporation at 1970-1980,
from where they left to go to turkey?

the problem is not the turks or the greeks,
the problem is that our leaders drem to be Alexanders or Mohamet ,
in gact if tommorrow Greece say no to a USA command, the next day 80 turkish airplanes will fly above Aegian,
if USA say no do that to Turks, and they did not the next day Greek Navy will reach attalleia or Imbros island.
 
iapetoc said:
the case of hate is wnother story,
the case of grey zones story, the case of 12 miles another story, and the case of oil also another,
we both know that the case is ok peace but be ready for war,
the case of 1974 cyprus and 1998 Imia-karntak is a clear case of seek and hiding,

if you know well the history of Turkish economy then let me remind the Esso, Pirelli and another one corporation at 1970-1980,
from where they left to go to turkey?

the problem is not the turks or the greeks,
the problem is that our leaders drem to be Alexanders or Mohamet ,
in gact if tommorrow Greece say no to a USA command, the next day 80 turkish airplanes will fly above Aegian,
if USA say no do that to Turks, and they did not the next day Greek Navy will reach attalleia or Imbros island.
Click to expand...
if we go on like this. we will still be underdeveloped countries in the last day of the earth. and we will give our hardly earned money to arm brokers for a stupid island, like kardak, where nobody lives.
 
I think France and Germany did not take into account the possibility that in future any member country may have problems in the United States that is intended for any of its states. Greece has religiously paid its taxes in Europe, I believe that Greece had eight years of recession, this could have been avoided if France and Germany had been sighted, either that or they really cease to be the bossy Europe and truly create a rather it is the EU
 
barbarian said:
i am not sure about that. after the rise of china and india industrialized countries also in big trouble because of the increasing emtia prices and incompetitive rate of chinese products. these days only the countries having abundant natural source are comfortable like russia, norway etc.

if greeces main income is service, it is a big advantage for the country. it means that with the growing economy in the world your income will increase. and you are away from the competition of china.

however, if you dont have industry, it means that you have an unemployment problem. US has similar problem, however it is not a big problem for them since they can print brand new dollars.

greece cannot print euro, so they must increase their income in the long run, and decrease their expenditure in the short term. you cannot touch the companies in the capitalist system, so the workers will pay the bill.

i believe both greece must cut their military and public spendings, and understand that turkey is not their enemy (turkey only hate greece, just like greece hates turkey). and focus on energy investment, efficient agriculture.
Click to expand...

Hmm China has two things going for them, low paid labour and cheap oil. Only Hong Kong has a minimum wage, the rest of china doesn't, so the corporations can pay them what they like. Once the chinese start demanding better wages, or more rights, then china is in trouble. China is a "slave" economy, people like to put their factories there for the cheap labour.

The other thing is the -relatively- cheap oil. We can still have world wide trade becuase we can transport cheaply around the world. In the next 20 years oil will either be gone or so expensive it isn't viable anymore, so the cost of transporting chinese goods to the richer countries will be too expensive and china is in trouble. Unless a viable substitue comes along and then its business as usual.

I think Greece should go back to the drachma and start developing its industrial capital, it needs to diversify. With a cheap drachma, greece will attract more tourists, the industrial sector will instantly be competative, and costs of living will lower. In other words, I don't think this EU project is worth it for greece. Germany wants to have its cake and eat it too.
 
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