Link between haplogroup E and poor economic performance

[iapetoc]

These are two faces of the same coin. Corruption cannot exist without a mutual agreement between the corrupter and the corrupted. If someone has strong principles against corruption, he/she will not try to corrupt and will not accept proposals of corruption.



Most traits of characters are hereditary, therefore genetic. This is why different breeds of dogs have clearly different characters (some more aggressive, some more sociable, some more protective, some more playful, some better at herding, some better at helping people...). Even religiosity and sexual faithfulness are deeply rooted in our genes. I doubt that corruptibility isn't. However it is almost certain that the Y-chromosome has no effect on it. The genes is almost certainly autosomal, but could have been spread by people carrying one or several specific haplogroups. In fact, genes are always spread by people from one region to other regions. People from a specific region will carry haplogroups specific to that region. Consequently there can be a correlation between the spread of autosomal genes and one or a few Y-DNA haplogroups.

For example, Hemochromatosis and Huntington disease originated in the Scandinavian population. The Vikings spread them to the regions they conquered. Because the Vikings carried (among others) I1 lineages, it can be said that there is a link between the diffusion of I1 by the Vikings and these two diseases. It doesn't mean that an Irish or North French person who belongs to I1 will have these diseases of course. But the incidence of both diseases will probably correlate to the percentage of I1 in a region, because they "travel" in the local gene pool.

I am also convinced that other traits influencing the economy, such as diligence or laziness are genetic too. It seems that the populations descending ultimately from the ancient Chinese (Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese + some Thai) and from the ancient Germans are particularly hard-working and meticulous. The is strong genetic disposition might even have originated in Siberia or Central Asia.

As for laziness, it has been proven that a few genetic conditions that help prevent malaria, like Sickle-cell disease in Africa and Thalassemia in the Mediterranean region, do cause anaemia and therefore lethargy and a natural predisposition to "laziness". Now that I think about it, seeing the distribution map for Sickle cell disease, it might truly be that haplogroup E does correlate with laziness via the spread of Sickle cell anaemia. Have a look at the map, it is startling how it matches the distribution of haplogroup E in the Balkans, South Italy and Anatolia.



Thalassemia has a similar distribution but fills the gaps in North Africa, Iberia and southern France too.



Hot weather isn't the reason of lower activity in Southeast Europe; malaria is (or rather was, but contributed in changing people's genes).

It is a common misconception that haplogroup E is low in Germany or in places so much north as Belarus. I have complied Y-DNA data from all the studies I could find for all European countries, and I can assert that West Germany has about 8% of haplogroup E, while Belarus approximates 9%. This isn't strange for West Germany since haplogroup E reaches 11% in Wallonia and 7% in the eastern part of Flanders (province of Limburg) in adjoining Belgium, and 10% in Alsace. Incidentally, the unemployment rate in Wallonia is awful (15% was the average for the last 10 years) and corruption is a major problem (Walloons are often dubbed Italians of the North, partly because of this).

As for Greece, it is a very carved and fragmented country with strongly varying haplogroup frequencies between regions. While northern Greece can exceed 30% of haplogroup E, Crete is under 10% and some islands have under 5% of E. Greeks may think of themselves as one ethnic group, but DNA rather suggests a confederacy of many ethnicities.

maciamo

thalassaimia and drepanocyttarosis and homocystein and many other are connected with different DNA genes and you know it.

HBO
MTHFR etc

not with E-V13,


i said in a previous post about chemicals and hormons that can be a link, a more sentimental degree or a more brain activity.
I believe also
2 man, 1 is very excited with orgasm the other is not
who is more possible to run to common women or turn to gay?

I have correct MTHFR DNA yet I have an unspecified Homocystein pathesis that reaches 30 at random times, (like 1000-2000 cholisterine)
I have no problem with protein C etc not even with vitamin B
is my Y-DNA or my Mt-DNA responsible??
yet I served as marine my military obligations and was 8 rank in Greek rowing races 8 person boat and 4 persons boat?
i had 2 times haimoptysis (spit blood) in my life and 1 time my spline was 26 cm and 1 time my pneumons were full of blood thromvosis,
I take cheap cumarins from 14 years old ,
is it my Y-Dna??

Yes thalassaimia and other anaimias could be a fracture of laziness but also not.

my second cousin who has thalassaimia takes 5mg of folic acid every day, (about 5 cent a day)
and I inform she works twice than her kids and her husband, why, she needs only 30 min of rest and fast sleep every 4-6 hours,
and then is fresh again, but by that she learn to sleep only 3-4-5 hours the day,
so with may not the streangth to work continuesly 10 hours, but she sleeps less than others.
she sleeps 4-5 times per day but the max is 1-2 hours.

I agree that DNA can be connected with many but not every DNA,
a small change in DNA can give different quantities of Hormons or enzyma etc that can affect 1 person work or brain or sentiments

BUT is it Y-DNA?

on the other hand

lets the today biggest athlets in every sport
TAKE A LOOK IN NBA BASKET BALL MAJORITY IS E Y-DNA
TAKE A LOOK AT FRANCE NATIONAL TEAM
TAKE A LOOK AT BRAZIL'S FOOTBALL TEAM
TAKE A LOOK AT ATHLETICS ALL RUNNERS ARE E DNA
even Kenteris could be E carrier

WHY WE CONNECT E Y-DNA WITH CORRUPTION
AND NOT WITH GREAT ATHLETIC PERMOMANCES????????????????? why?



I don't know if he is E YDNA
I don't know if he is corrupted
But I know he was unique.


far south east asia, phillipines indonesia etc
I wonder who is more corrupted,
the young under age whore? her father?
or the oldman rich western or Arab sultan, pedofilos

you are correct and clear,
anaimias and many other cases can be a fracture of laziness or what ever.

But I ask you 1 question,
fat people are lazy? fat people are healthy?
why we don't connect western culture with pachysarky, fatness
why we don't connret r1b r1a etc with fatness?
the biggest ratio of fat people are in USA and in EU,
in fact child fatness is almost a social problem.
DIABETES is killing harvesting EU and USA yet we allow stupid food with killed vitamins and we eat and produce and advertise food full of preservatives wich kill langerhans island cells,
how much EU spends in insuline due to a half destroyed organ cause of fat and wrong food?

IN EUROPE WE HAVE LAZINESS AND DISABLED PEOPLE DUE TO DIABETES
WHICH REACH >30% of population.
The increase in incidence of diabetes in developing countries follows the trend of urbanization and lifestyle changes, perhaps most importantly a "Western-style" diet. This has suggested an environmental (i.e., dietary) effect, but there is little understanding of the mechanism(s) at present, though there is much speculation, some of it most compellingly presented.[2]



I believe is not the Y-DNA but another dna gene and enviroment.

PS
I don't know about the western Europe wars,
but I knw about yenicars and eastern wars, and believe there not a few,

in ww1 the most killing batle was in balkans battle of lachana
48 000 dead in 6 hours,
in one 1 day 1900 AD soldiers fight like Napoleon's wars,
face to face with the spears in their guns,
maybe belgium change 9 rulers but constantinupolis defend from how many???
Thessaloniki change 5 times hands in 150 years
ok maybe wars is not the base of corruption, i can half accept your approach, need total estimation to full accept it.
but at least at greece we have 4 big wars and 1 civil and 1 dictatorship,
ww2 ended at 1949 in greece, 5 years after Europe.
rest of balkans had also the same wars but instead of a dictatorship they had communist era.
west europe did not pass the communistic era.

corruption has to do with punishment,
in greece due to humanization and me modern europe, we pass the crimes of corruption,
in greece we kill the innocent protester and we allow the corupted to earn,
but I don't believe it has to do with the 25% E YDNA,
in fact I wonder what characteristic that gives? with which hormon or enzyma etc is connected?

PS 2
In your theory about Y-DNA and IE you gave the exact word for Greece melting pot,
yet my fathers from ancient times connect it in Thessaly via Olympic games,
Greek is a family of smaller tribes,
why we accept Slavic the I2a of south balkans and the R1a of north?
we accept Slavic Family of nations not a nation but a family
same is Greece is a family of tribes we accept Greek nation but not family of nations.


PS 3
I ask the author to say clear what he means corruption?
corruption has many faces in a social organiazed municipal,
with which face of corruption he connects it?

1 pedophilia
2 adultery
3 homosexuality
4 overpass law
5 criminality
6 unfair judge
7 robberies
8 create law that support some
9 different laws for different class
10 get illegal things with money
11 selling drugs
12 different work of public care?
13 love for money?

what he means corruption and with what he connects it?

ps4

about weather I agree that is not a reason,
but how about programing of day,
my grand parent at summer wake up at 4-5 o clock, went to work before sun raise and 12 middle of day he fall to sleep, and worked after 3-4 o cloack at evening
today with same laws in North and South,
we have to work at 13-14 o clock wich many times reach above 40 C
and in north in winter we spend electricity
my grand parents in summer sleep midday and work early morning and evening,
today we use airconditions etc to work at 40 C
how much productivity can have someone at 40C
and this to have almost same market laws in EU or global laws.

in North they forbid concrete when temperature when temperature is low,
in south concrete is most forbiden in summer cause of high temperatures,
once I was so unlucky that I had to wait 4 days for put concrete in a structure.

[spongetaro]

WHY WE CONNECT E Y-DNA WITH CORRUPTION
AND NOT WITH GREAT ATHLETIC PERMOMANCES????????????????? why?

Sometimes I wonder why Indians are so bad at sports. Is it cultural or due to Haplogroup H and L ?

[Mzungu mchagga]

I am also convinced that other traits influencing the economy, such as diligence or laziness are genetic too. It seems that the populations descending ultimately from the ancient Chinese (Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese + some Thai) and from the ancient Germans are particularly hard-working and meticulous. The is strong genetic disposition might even have originated in Siberia or Central Asia.

As for laziness, it has been proven that a few genetic conditions that help prevent malaria, like Sickle-cell disease in Africa and Thalassemia in the Mediterranean region, do cause anaemia and therefore lethargy and a natural predisposition to "laziness". Now that I think about it, seeing the distribution map for Sickle cell disease, it might truly be that haplogroup E does correlate with laziness via the spread of Sickle cell anaemia. Have a look at the map, it is startling how it matches the distribution of haplogroup E in the Balkans, South Italy and Anatolia.

Sickle-cell disease and Thalassemia have the effect of lower oxygen transport by erythrocytes, which will be followed by reduced physical activity, or as you would say, 'laziness' (which is a rather jugding term, as it implies 'unwillingness'). I know it is not what you meant, but by the choice of your words, other readers will get the impression that laziness is an evoutionary advantage for prevention of malaria.
But either way we will have to prove that both sickle-cell disease as well as thalassemia with non-treatment are so highly distributed among certain populations that THESE diseases actually are the reason of lower performance and productivity of their countries. I am not that familiar with distribution of diseases within Europe, but I'm sure if I did some research I will also find some with a higher prevalence in Northern Europe, which in that case should imply a lower productivity there.

If I remember it well, didn't the Roman writer and politician Tacitus describe the Germans as lazy, with tendency towards gambling and alcoholism? At those times Northern Europe wasn't half as successful as the Mediterranean countries, despite of a much higher malaria distribution in southern places at that time! How do you explain that?

I'm not surprised of your theory that Germans and East Asians share a certain gene that effects hard work and diligence, as you are the one who believes that Northern Europeans also inherited individualism from Neanderthals. Maybe you would also say that diligence is attached to the same gene?

I know you are a person of facts and statistics, so why don't you stick to them? Of course you can give your reasons, opinions and own conclusions here (which, sorry, very often are associated with stereotypes), but PLEASE, don't present them as facts!

[how yes no 2]

First of all, I did not want to depict the Byzantine and Ottoman Empire as interchangeable. The problem of forums is that people easily lose track of how and why arguments were put forward. Let's rewind a bit.

A) In the OP, Jacker22 proposed the hypothesis that the percentage of haplogroup E in a population correlated with corruption, unemployment and lower GDP per capita.

B) How yes no refuted this correlation, stating that : "best off are countries that did not have wars in recent history, worst are countries that were destroyed economically due to the wars in recent history."

C) To which I replied that the Balkans actually suffered less wars in the last 1500 years than Western Europe (I gave the example of France being at war pretty much constantly with its neighbours, and internecine wars within Germany and within Italy). While wars of conquest were being waged in most of Europe, borders redrawn constantly from the Middle Ages until WWII, most of the Balkans (except Romania) were a region of relative stability in comparison because they only changed ruler and system once in roughly 1000 years (or twice in 1500 years if we count the Bulgarian Empire). During the same period the region that is now Belgium changed hands 9 times before becoming an independent country in 1830, and that is without counting the numerous wars fought by other countries on its territory (including Louis XIV and Louis XV against the Spaniards, English and Dutch, and Napoleon against all Europe, and the Germans invading neutral Belgium to invade France in WWI and WWII). The Balkans (Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro and Bosnia) only changed hands three times between the Roman conquest 2000 years ago and the break-up of the Ottoman Empire. They were Roman/Byzantine, then Bulgarian Turk, then Ottoman Turk. Very few wars were fought in the Balkans between the 11th and the late 19th century, apart from the Ottoman conquest itself. The main battles fought with neighbouring superpowers took place in WWI and WWII, except the war between Ottomans and Austro-Hungarians, which was staged mainly in Romania, Hungary and Austria (so around the Carpathians rather than the Balkans).

My point was therefore that poverty in the Balkans couldn't be explained by a particular profusion of wars in its history compared to Western Europe. My argument had nothing to do with the cultural or political differences between Byzantines and Ottomans. That was one transition, one empire being taken over in its entirety by another, even if they were very different people with a different languages and religions. Local languages survived throughout the Ottoman Empire anyway (there was no real will to obliterate them and force people to speak Turkish), and religion was free too (no Inquisition, just a tax on people who chose no to convert to Islam, but many people in the Balkans did convert). So even that wasn't a terrible problem.

Ottoman empire offered a kind of stability that one can have as kidnaped and tortured in a basement... while you can call situation like that stable, you can't claim it was great environment for development and economic growth.....

my intention with war argument was about long period of peace in own country...clearly, Ottoman empire was not such environment for Balkan people...


in fact, being a country subjugated by Ottomans practically meant constant state of war for ordinary people...

there were countless small rebelions and many people lived in woods as guerrila fighers - "hajduci" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajduk and had constant clashes with Turks

there were areas e.g. Montenegro that were never subjugated by Turks... there was constant battle on its borders...in those times people of Montenegro considered themselves elite Serbs because they refused to be subjugated despite everything... there is one thing about Serbs - enduring and never surrendering...


if you want to oversimplify history and look at it on greater scale, than border between Austo-Hungary's military border and Ottoman empire was in constant war and often changing....

on both sides in those constant wars, core of warriors were Balkan people - islamised on one side (those kidnapped by turkish army from parents as small kids, brought to Turkey, and brain-washed into being elite Turk soldiers, and ancestors of muslim people of Balkan who changed religion to enjoy more comfortable life) and christians on other side ...


military border of Austro-Hungary was populated mostly with Serbs, but also with Croats (those previous inhaabitants of the area that didnot runaway, and some dominantly Croat settled areas e.g. west part of Lika - places such as Klis and Senj famous for guerila fighers "uskoci" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uskoci) and and to much much less extent with Romanians and Hungarians (mostly in Transylvania) and Germans..



all those people were settled there to be soldiers, and lived in constant state of war... Croatia Serbs, west Bosnia Serbs and part of Vojvodina Serbs origin from military frontier people.......they were settled there to be warriors and defenders of Austro-Hungary and Europe... military frontier existed as separate entity in Austro-Hungary, and it only was in ear 1881 when danger of Turkey was gone, when the military frontier was included mostly in entity named Croatia-Slavonia and part of it directly in the kingdom of Hungary...

in fact, without that military frontier perhaps your ancestors would end-up impaled as well... take a look again at the picture below as it could have been your ancestor enjoying stability of Ottoman empire...



in fact, you should learn to respect sacrifices of Balkan people that were playing a role of wall against Turks and in that way have enabled real stability in the rest of the Europe and thus created preconditions for cultural development and economic prosperity to your ancestors... so please stop trying to put Balkan people in the role of lower worth, because I do not think most of western Europe (especially Belgians and French) would ever be able to sustain what Balkan people did...

[Elias2]

Poverty in the balkans isn't very hard to figure out. This might seem like more turk bashing but it isn't my main goal.

Ottoman empire was a "gunpowder" empire, meaning the only reason is lasted as long as it did and regions didn't break away sooner is because the centralized turk army had gunpowder and the different ethnic group did not. This let the turks keep the different peoples repressed for so long, these peoples being christians AND muslims (look at what turkey is still doing to the kurds). As soon as the different ethnic groups got to have their own guns, like arvinites and soon after greeks, Greece became a seperate country. Russia fought for Bulgaria who did not have guns and won, it became a seperate country and got hold of gunpowder weapons as well, same for serbia. Remember when the arabs rebeled against the turks during WW1, this was only because the british supplied them with guns for their resistance, they were still using camels and swords!

Ottoman empire was very "backwards" economically as well as intellectually. It was the "sick man of europe" for the longest time and did not develop industries like in western and eastern europe, so the people inherited land that was not developed. So each different balkan country had to start from scratch essentially.

To a more modern period. Before WW2, all balkan countries were practically at the same economic level. Greece, which is the "richest" at the moment (in terms of GDP per capita) was at the same level as the poorest right now, albania. The difference is the countries who turned to communism had to "restart" again in the late 1980's when it all fell apart. As a poster pointed out, Yugoslavia was a very well developed country prior to disintigration. And their recovery fromt eh transition to capitalism has been very slow while the rest of europe in the last 20 years grew significantly. Throw in the yugoslav wars in the 90's and its aftermath, the illigal partition of kosovo from serbia, and FYROM and albanian nationalistic geographical asperations, the balkans in the last 25 years has been a mess, and I think will continue to be a mess unless things change.

Now I don't want to make it seem like its all historical, there may as well be some cultural aspects of corruption aswell. If people dismiss the idea that better paying jobs or succes is based off anything else besides merit there is trouble. To say that western europe is not corrupt is silly, the corruption is just "white collar" corruption that is harder to discover and even more hard to bring to light.

[Carlitos]

The use and fate of science and progress stands today, with few exceptions, outside the circuits of ethics. Neoliberalism is a system that could not exist without appropriating everything that justice should be the heritage of humanity, also permanently appropriates science to its spurious, aberrant and disgusting purposes. Science is today without this can or should blame the scientists, a good privatized the service of a small ruling elite based on their display of power and criminal hoarding of wealth. Therefore, the enormous benefits that could and should provide genetic research on prevention and eradication of diseases and give ourselves a better quality of life may be fictitious, false and counterproductive for all human beings.

[archaiocapilos]

It is a common misconception that haplogroup E is low in Germany or in places so much north as Belarus. I have complied Y-DNA data from all the studies I could find for all European countries, and I can assert that West Germany has about 8% of haplogroup E, while Belarus approximates 9%. This isn't strange for West Germany since haplogroup E reaches 11% in Wallonia and 7% in the eastern part of Flanders (province of Limburg) in adjoining Belgium, and 10% in Alsace. Incidentally, the unemployment rate in Wallonia is awful (15% was the average for the last 10 years) and corruption is a major problem (Walloons are often dubbed Italians of the North, partly because of this).

As for Greece, it is a very carved and fragmented country with strongly varying haplogroup frequencies between regions. While northern Greece can exceed 30% of haplogroup E, Crete is under 10% and some islands have under 5% of E. Greeks may think of themselves as one ethnic group, but DNA rather suggests a confederacy of many ethnicities.

The ''scientist'' Maciamo now claims that DNA equals ethnicity (I wonder do you even know what ethnicity means? Because if you did I'm sure you wouldn't have used THAT word... Ethnicity comes from the Greek word 'ethnicoteta' which derives from 'ethnos' which derives from 'ethos'...which could be translated in English as coustom habbit. It is clear enough I think that 'ethnicity' is related with common culture and coustoms not DNA, so stop spreading your anti-Greek propaganda (especially using Greek words that you don't even understand dear Belgian ''scientist''... After all most modren nations don't belong to a particullar haplogroup and the same haplogroups are present in quite distinct populations which makes your statement invalid even more than your linguistic ignorance

[zanipolo]

The Ottoman system of taking christian boys in infancy and training them as janiissary ( elite troops) was the success of the Ottoman fighting machine..........the true Ottomans crumpled after the janissary system evaporated in the 18th century. They hated the slavs the most followed by the Roman catholics but seemed to tolerate the orthodox people ( greek) better

[Maciamo]

The ''scientist'' Maciamo now claims that DNA equals ethnicity (I wonder do you even know what ethnicity means? Because if you did I'm sure you wouldn't have used THAT word... Ethnicity comes from the Greek word 'ethnicoteta' which derives from 'ethnos' which derives from 'ethos'...which could be translated in English as coustom habbit. It is clear enough I think that 'ethnicity' is related with common culture and coustoms not DNA, so stop spreading your anti-Greek propaganda (especially using Greek words that you don't even understand dear Belgian ''scientist''... After all most modren nations don't belong to a particullar haplogroup and the same haplogroups are present in quite distinct populations which makes your statement invalid even more than your linguistic ignorance

Perhaps the Greek etymology of ethnicity related to culture and customs (actually it comes from ethnikos, itself derived from ethnos "band of people living together, nation, people"), but in English (or French, Italian and Spanish for that matter), ethnicity refers first and foremost to common ancestry (therefore DNA).

I have no idea what you call anti-Greek propaganda. I have nothing against Greek people, and never said and wrote anything negative about Greece or Greeks. You are obviously delusional. If that is anti-Greek to say that haplogroup frequencies differ widely between parts of Greece then I can't help you. Go see a shrink.

[Maciamo]

Poverty in the balkans isn't very hard to figure out. This might seem like more turk bashing but it isn't my main goal.

Ottoman empire was a "gunpowder" empire, meaning the only reason is lasted as long as it did and regions didn't break away sooner is because the centralized turk army had gunpowder and the different ethnic group did not. This let the turks keep the different peoples repressed for so long, these peoples being christians AND muslims (look at what turkey is still doing to the kurds). As soon as the different ethnic groups got to have their own guns, like arvinites and soon after greeks, Greece became a seperate country. Russia fought for Bulgaria who did not have guns and won, it became a seperate country and got hold of gunpowder weapons as well, same for serbia. Remember when the arabs rebeled against the turks during WW1, this was only because the british supplied them with guns for their resistance, they were still using camels and swords!

Ottoman empire was very "backwards" economically as well as intellectually. It was the "sick man of europe" for the longest time and did not develop industries like in western and eastern europe, so the people inherited land that was not developed. So each different balkan country had to start from scratch essentially.

To a more modern period. Before WW2, all balkan countries were practically at the same economic level. Greece, which is the "richest" at the moment (in terms of GDP per capita) was at the same level as the poorest right now, albania. The difference is the countries who turned to communism had to "restart" again in the late 1980's when it all fell apart. As a poster pointed out, Yugoslavia was a very well developed country prior to disintigration. And their recovery fromt eh transition to capitalism has been very slow while the rest of europe in the last 20 years grew significantly. Throw in the yugoslav wars in the 90's and its aftermath, the illigal partition of kosovo from serbia, and FYROM and albanian nationalistic geographical asperations, the balkans in the last 25 years has been a mess, and I think will continue to be a mess unless things change.

Now I don't want to make it seem like its all historical, there may as well be some cultural aspects of corruption aswell. If people dismiss the idea that better paying jobs or succes is based off anything else besides merit there is trouble. To say that western europe is not corrupt is silly, the corruption is just "white collar" corruption that is harder to discover and even more hard to bring to light.

I totally agree with this. Thanks for your input.

[Maciamo]

Sickle-cell disease and Thalassemia have the effect of lower oxygen transport by erythrocytes, which will be followed by reduced physical activity, or as you would say, 'laziness' (which is a rather jugding term, as it implies 'unwillingness'). I know it is not what you meant, but by the choice of your words, other readers will get the impression that laziness is an evoutionary advantage for prevention of malaria.

In my mind laziness does not involve unwillingness. There are days when I feel too tired to work, when I want to laze around. Laziness is not something one decides, nor is it a permanent condition. It just depends on the energy and motivation one has at a particular time. Extreme heat can make me lazy, but that doesn't mean I am always lazy. Genetic anaemia on the other hand is much more serious as it is a permanent condition and is incurable (although regular treatment can alleviate the symptoms). So I find it funny that you should criticise my use of the term "lazy" when for me it is much more benign than "suffering from sickle cell anaemia" (and neither have anything to do with personal choice).

But either way we will have to prove that both sickle-cell disease as well as thalassemia with non-treatment are so highly distributed among certain populations that THESE diseases actually are the reason of lower performance and productivity of their countries.

If these diseases have no influence on poor economic performance, then the alternative possibilities might end up being more disturbing. I am almost certain that widespread anaemia has a negative impact on productivity. It surely isn't the only reason, but it is an important factor.

I am not that familiar with distribution of diseases within Europe, but I'm sure if I did some research I will also find some with a higher prevalence in Northern Europe, which in that case should imply a lower productivity there.

Sickle-cell disease as well as thalassemia are extremely rare in northern Europe (under 1%, and perhaps under 0.1% of the population). The former is tested by 23andMe, by the way, so it's easy to make a quick survey among users to confirm. I have access to the data from about 30 people (mostly of northern European descent) through extended sharing, and none have the sickle-cell mutation.

If I remember it well, didn't the Roman writer and politician Tacitus describe the Germans as lazy, with tendency towards gambling and alcoholism? At those times Northern Europe wasn't half as successful as the Mediterranean countries, despite of a much higher malaria distribution in southern places at that time! How do you explain that?

How much credit can you give to a haughty, condescending Roman politician when describing people he doesn't know well (and certainly hasn't lived among) that the mighty, civilised Romans like to belittle as "barbarians" ? It's not an objective point of view, and it isn't based on solid knowledge of the people discussed. It's merely a sort of self-flattering propaganda that the Romans loved to write. Frankly, the Romans accusing others of gambling and alcoholism, when they partied in Rome half of the year, indulging in orgies and gambling on charioteers and gladiators ? :rolleyes:

I'm not surprised of your theory that Germans and East Asians share a certain gene that effects hard work and diligence, as you are the one who believes that Northern Europeans also inherited individualism from Neanderthals. Maybe you would also say that diligence is attached to the same gene?

Diligence has absolutely nothing to do with individualism ! I don't know how you can liken the two ? East Asians are among the most collectivist (anti-individualistic) people on Earth ! The most individualistic Europeans are not necessarily Germanic either. The Brits and Irish are possibly the most individualistic, and their ancestry is first "Celtic" (or ancient Briton) then Germanic. German, Dutch and Scandinavian people are somewhat collectivist in their sense of egalitarianism and value of the common welfare (they are similar to the Japanese in this regard). The French and the Italians (especially northern Italians) can be quite individualistic. In business for instance, collectivist countries will favour big corporations (like the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese, but also the Germans), while very individualistic societies have a profusion of self-employed people and small companies (like Italy). According to the cultural psychologist Geert Hofstede, the most individualistic Europeans are the British, followed by the Dutch and Hungarians, then the Italians and the Belgians.

[Maciamo]

maciamo

thalassaimia and drepanocyttarosis and homocystein and many other are connected with different DNA genes and you know it.

HBO
MTHFR etc

not with E-V13,

The map I posted clearly showed that the distribution of sickle cell disease and thalassemia matched pretty well the distribution of haplogroup E. Furthermore, sickle cell disease originated in Africa and so did haplogroup E. Malaria isn't a new disease and the sickle cell mutation may date back to tens of thousands of years. It's even possible that all human populations carried it before leaving Africa, and that individuals lacking it were positively selected once they reached parts of the world unaffected by malaria, because it conferred an advantage (lack of anaemia). It is a very reasonable assumption that sickle cell anaemia was re-introduced into the Middle East and south-east Europe by the migration of E1b1b at the end of the last Ice Age, and it remained there because malaria reappeared with the warming up of the climate 10,000 years ago.

my second cousin who has thalassaimia takes 5mg of folic acid every day, (about 5 cent a day)
and I inform she works twice than her kids and her husband, why, she needs only 30 min of rest and fast sleep every 4-6 hours,
and then is fresh again, but by that she learn to sleep only 3-4-5 hours the day,
so with may not the streangth to work continuesly 10 hours, but she sleeps less than others.
she sleeps 4-5 times per day but the max is 1-2 hours.

Not all people affected by thalassemia get treatment. In fact, many people don't even know they have it. People who come from regions were sickle-cell disease or thalassemia is common should get tested and, if positive, treated to improve their living conditions.

TAKE A LOOK IN NBA BASKET BALL MAJORITY IS E Y-DNA
TAKE A LOOK AT FRANCE NATIONAL TEAM
TAKE A LOOK AT BRAZIL'S FOOTBALL TEAM
TAKE A LOOK AT ATHLETICS ALL RUNNERS ARE E DNA
even Kenteris could be E carrier

Yes, ok. What's your point ? I know that. Some Africans are much better at some sports than Europeans or Asians. But Europeans also excel in some sports (e.g. tennis, swimming, motor sports) more than Africans and Asians, and East Asians excel at yet other sports (gymnastics, synchronised swimming, martial arts).

WHY WE CONNECT E Y-DNA WITH CORRUPTION
AND NOT WITH GREAT ATHLETIC PERMOMANCES????????????????? why?

But we do. We just did, you and me. I think that you don't understand the difference between a correlation between a haplogroup and a population and the direct effect of a haplogroup on a person. The Y-chromosome has no effect on sickle-cell anaemia or other medical conditions.

In your theory about Y-DNA and IE you gave the exact word for Greece melting pot,
yet my fathers from ancient times connect it in Thessaly via Olympic games,
Greek is a family of smaller tribes,
why we accept Slavic the I2a of south balkans and the R1a of north?
we accept Slavic Family of nations not a nation but a family
same is Greece is a family of tribes we accept Greek nation but not family of nations.

Ethnicities and nations are completely different things. The concept of nation is a feeling shared by citizens of a same country regardless of ethnicity. The USA is a good example of a multi-ethnic nation. But no ethnologist would think of a country like France as a mono-ethnic (even if you don't take recent immigrants into accounts). A Breton is clearly distinguishable genetically and culturally from a Provençal, and an Alsatian has little in common with a Basque. Big countries (by European standards) like France, Germany, Italy or Spain are patchworks of ethnic groups that were unified under a common government to form nation states. I was just pointing out that this was also true for Greece.

PS 3
I ask the author to say clear what he means corruption?
corruption has many faces in a social organiazed municipal,
with which face of corruption he connects it?

I think that in this case, corruption refers mainly to government corruption, which comes in three types :

1) Political corruption, the abuse of public power, office, or resources by elected government officials for personal gain, e.g. by extortion, soliciting or offering bribes It can also refer to office holders maintaining themselves in office by purchasing votes by enacting laws which use taxpayer money.

2) Bureaucratic corruption is the abuse of power, office, or resources by government employees for personal gain, e.g. by extortion, soliciting or offering bribes

3) Police corruption, a specific form of bureaucratic misconduct designed to obtain financial benefits, other personal gain, and/or career advancement for a police officer or officers in exchange for not pursuing, or selectively pursuing, an investigation or arrest

The mafia is strongly associated with these three types of corruption. The most famous mafias in Europe are the South Italian and Albanian mafias, the two regions of Europe with the highest percentage of haplogroup E1b1b outside Greece. It might just be a coincidence, but that is a lot of coincidences...

[iapetoc]

I think that in this case, corruption refers mainly to government corruption, which comes in three types :

1) Political corruption, the abuse of public power, office, or resources by elected government officials for personal gain, e.g. by extortion, soliciting or offering bribes It can also refer to office holders maintaining themselves in office by purchasing votes by enacting laws which use taxpayer money.

2) Bureaucratic corruption is the abuse of power, office, or resources by government employees for personal gain, e.g. by extortion, soliciting or offering bribes

3) Police corruption, a specific form of bureaucratic misconduct designed to obtain financial benefits, other personal gain, and/or career advancement for a police officer or officers in exchange for not pursuing, or selectively pursuing, an investigation or arrest

The mafia is strongly associated with these three types of corruption. The most famous mafias in Europe are the South Italian and Albanian mafias, the two regions of Europe with the highest percentage of haplogroup E1b1b outside Greece. It might just be a coincidence, but that is a lot of coincidences...

ok i never deny about corruption in balkans and south east europe,

mafia is alternate word famillia, family,
it is connected with ancient patriarchical system

about the cases of corruption,
so we spoke about an 'elite of society' being corrupted, which i believe is correct.
my believes are also the same, the case of a bucket of wheat from roman times is true,


but on the other hand in Greece we say a moto, οτι λαμπει δεν ειναι χρυσος, ανθρακες ο θησαυρος, what ever is shining is not gold, the treasure was coal
that means we show a light, a spark, is it gold? or it is coal? coals are shining also, especially at night


then we have to find the mechanism of how that gene is working,
so if it is E-Ydna then what hormone or what chemistry, or what human structure makes them bend to corruption.
a mind satisfaction? a kind of body orgasm with money? the colour of money?

I believe corruption has to do with brain activity, or with with soul satisfaction, if it is in genes,
I believe we go back to the 'miserables' and Janver theory who, at least at the show, had a map with shapes of head, and measure people's head and put them to classes, thieves, murderers, etc,
in old anthropology they try to find what makes a human criminal,
for example small ears or big nose or whatever,

I had read about an article about gymnastics, and E people from africa, western African have long muscle cells,
that gives short time strength. with a neural spark their muscles give fast act spending high energy, and have big perfomance,
but that last for short hour,
that is why types like Carl Lewis can not run marathons or long time games,
on the other hand Kenya and Ethiopeans have the shortest muscular cells,
that means they don't have strong muscular react, they spend small energy in a neural spark, so they can last working for hours,
they are bad at 100 m but good in 5000 10000 m,
why cause they save energy better than others,

As always enviroment plays its role,

Nature take its choices by donating, or by exterminating long muscular cells people in Desert and savannah,
ultil 1970 caravans walked days to cross desert, and goat breeders walk hours to find grass,
so short muscular survived better than long muscular cells,
that is a mechanism why north of sahara we also have Mt Dna different than south of Sahara,
but they both E Ydna,
All the above is a nature choice of who survives, a mechanism who connects enviroment with genes,

in case of corruption, which shine as treasure to some,
and for me is coal, but for some is gold,
what mechanism works?
and is that mechanism really connected with the Fraction work of cells having the E Y-DNA?

I believe corruption is after the social system, and a survival mechanism.
Patriarchical-semitribal societies have that symptoms, they are equal among them, but they are offensive against others,

also a brain activity that helped in past, but not today,
in the christian bible we read about the metals of Jacob, and also about the daughter Deina and how they act.
they prefer to slain the offender instead to marry sister,
why? cause they gain power as tribe like that,

same is with corruption in balkans,
what is happening,
people in order to gain something they desire, they have 2 choices,
1 is to kill the other and buy it,
2nd is to buy it legally or illegal

when from roman times a vote= a bucket of wheat, today one who dreams to be president, must buy the votes of the weak,
20 50 500 E is good prize,
so in case that someone owns the bank money or a poor person to help him with family votes to save some money surely they will vote you,
Honour and price is same word,
so politicians spend money according peoples demands and get votes, but then they make tricks and steal money from people's taxes etc,
corruption follows the laws of the market,

example is the police corruption and cafes night clubs etc,

a policeman works 8 hours and 4 hours is in yellow light, meaning is semi suspended in day, that 4 hours he must be in station in 20 minutes to take over action if demanded.
that 4 hours they spend it in stores that can be robbed, and owners obliged for protecting them treat them or help them with their own way
but when that habit becomes a work, a gang, an organised famillia of protection, who is asking money to protect you,
from robbers, or even by him self then is crime, criminal corruption,

ok Greek police is corrupted and we all know that,
in fact in a late judges attack about 40 policeman were arrested cause they make protection as their job,

But is not the same with North Securities that protect blocks of houses etc?
not a simple small super market but whole blocks and big corporations,
simply in one case we have policeman that are corrupted, and in the other mafia security wars,

at least in kinimatograph in USA we see killing of drug dealers etc, dead people
in Balkans we see drug dealers to pay police to buy a piazza

both are crimes, simply the first we leave it as crime, and the second we record it as corruption and crime,

to end this, Hugo is clear about theories of criminality
Janver's theory are little beat dangerous if not explained correct and how mechanism works,

if I watch how diabetes and fatness is growing in North western world, then surely i connect it with Haplogroups,
but is it really connected with Haplogroups? or is the way of modern leaving and consuming societies,

[Sprinkles]

This is funny.

That's why the Ashkenazi Jews(25% haplogroup E) are poor? Right?

It has nothing to do with these countries being communist and being oppressed for hundreds of years? Right?

That's why North Korea is so ******* rich? There's no difference between North and South Korea? Right? Genetically?

You people are ******* retarded. That's why east and west Germany have always been equally prosperous? Right?

So explain to me why North and South Korea are genetically almost identical and economically on opposite sides of a spectrum.. LOL.


Guess what, morons? Your little fairy tale existence is coming to an end. The rest of the world is catching up to western europe which is immigrant infested and diseased. The quality of life will establish an equilibrium. The people living beyond the mean will fall (western europe), people living below the mean will rise (eastern europe, china, etc). It's the course of humanity.

[Elias2]

This is funny.

That's why the Ashkenazi Jews(25% haplogroup E) are poor? Right?

It has nothing to do with these countries being communist and being oppressed for hundreds of years? Right?

That's why North Korea is so ******* rich? There's no difference between North and South Korea? Right? Genetically?

You people are ******* retarded. That's why east and west Germany have always been equally prosperous? Right?

So explain to me why North and South Korea are genetically almost identical and economically on opposite sides of a spectrum.. LOL.


Guess what, morons? Your little fairy tale existence is coming to an end. The rest of the world is catching up to western europe which is immigrant infested and diseased. The quality of life will establish an equilibrium. The people living beyond the mean will fall (western europe), people living below the mean will rise (eastern europe, china, etc). It's the course of humanity.

Relax buddy, someone just came up with a hypothesis and we are discussing the merits of it, your language is very vulgar.

[zanipolo]

I never seen a nation which has 1 ethnicity.
As for the greeks, they might be culturally the same , but ethnicitally they are different. Cretans are different to Ionian greeks, to pelopennisan greeks etc etc . There are even greeks called the mani in the peopennese who are very different .

Dialects ( actually no such thing , but a language) indicates changes of ethnicity in peoples , even greeks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mo...ialects_en.svg

[iapetoc]

yes of course,

frog

cretan aforthakos
pontic forthaka
makedonian batrachos -is
thessalian batrachi

it is not a local idiom but ethnicity


Lets see the story behind like who was after Venice and who was Turkish,
and from which ancient language comes from,

and then lets speak about dialects,

for example
Pontic and Cretan are from Ionia people,
so they name the frog
Aforthakos and forthaka
why the change?
cause was isolated for 1000 years and was under turkish rules,
and the other was under Venice,

lets see the Makedonian and thessalian Batrachos and Batrachi
why is the same cause they both followed same history from ancient Aeolic and bothe were under turkish
then why Makedonian is male and female and the other is neutral
cause in thessaly we had strong roman -aromani presence, in aromani most animals goes to neutral

that is how dialects are created,
but lets keep to thread.

[archaiocapilos]

Perhaps the Greek etymology of ethnicity related to culture and customs (actually it comes from ethnikos, itself derived from ethnos "band of people living together, nation, people"), but in English (or French, Italian and Spanish for that matter), ethnicity refers first and foremost to common ancestry (therefore DNA).

I have no idea what you call anti-Greek propaganda. I have nothing against Greek people, and never said and wrote anything negative about Greece or Greeks. You are obviously delusional. If that is anti-Greek to say that haplogroup frequencies differ widely between parts of Greece then I can't help you. Go see a shrink.

You didn't just say that haplogroup frequencies differ widely between parst of Greece you claimed that while Greeks think that they belong to the same ethnicity they actually descend from a multitude of ethnicities which I have prooven to be wrong.

[zanipolo]

yes of course,

frog

cretan aforthakos
pontic forthaka
makedonian batrachos -is
thessalian batrachi

it is not a local idiom but ethnicity


Lets see the story behind like who was after Venice and who was Turkish,
and from which ancient language comes from,

and then lets speak about dialects,

for example
Pontic and Cretan are from Ionia people,
so they name the frog
Aforthakos and forthaka
why the change?
cause was isolated for 1000 years and was under turkish rules,
and the other was under Venice,

lets see the Makedonian and thessalian Batrachos and Batrachi
why is the same cause they both followed same history from ancient Aeolic and bothe were under turkish
then why Makedonian is male and female and the other is neutral
cause in thessaly we had strong roman -aromani presence, in aromani most animals goes to neutral

that is how dialects are created,
but lets keep to thread.

language and dialects ( same thing) is the first sign of different ethnicity. What are you trying to say.?

Greeks will know you never had a government between Alexander the Great and 1824, that's over 2000 years where other states ruled/governed Greeks , which led to other ethnic peoples migrating into greek lands.......these people became greekized ( if there is such a word) or returned to the their homeland, these peoples being, macedonians, franks, tuscans, genoese, catalans, venetians, Genoese , ottomans........did I leave any out?

Greeks do not have 1 ethnic type......no one has 1 ethnic type

[iapetoc]

language and dialects ( same thing) is the first sign of different ethnicity. What are you trying to say.?

Greeks will know you never had a government between Alexander the Great and 1824, that's over 2000 years where other states ruled/governed Greeks , which led to other ethnic peoples migrating into greek lands.......these people became greekized ( if there is such a word) or returned to the their homeland, these peoples being, macedonians, franks, tuscans, genoese, catalans, venetians, Genoese , ottomans........did I leave any out?

Greeks do not have 1 ethnic type......no one has 1 ethnic type

are you nuts? who said about 1 type? even 2 brothers are not the same?

and remember Greeks had goverments at pergamos Seleykeia Alexandreia,
and after 1204 and the damn crusaders we also took the sceptres, like the 4 areas
Epirus Smyrna Mystra and Trapezous,
better read better the greek history,

we never had 1 goverment eve at alexanders time Lakedaimonians had another goverment and Magnas had their owns,

and is only <400 years,
Hello Trebizond was Greek
in fact first general of Greek revolt was from there, and Greek revolt started in Romania, hello

I know what are talking about and where you go again the thread,
just 1 word wake up we survided for 400 years and we are still here,
while you (you know who) served who?
now next thing is to say me that greeks had dissapear and the today are all foreigners,

well you anti-greek feeling again expressed,
ALL WHO FOUGHT WITH US AT 1821 HAVE A HOMELAND,
ALL WHO FOUGHT AGAINST US GO TO HELL,

now about fyrom
the answer is known, get .... zanipolo

catalans in Greece?

genouates in greece?
in fact Greeks moved to Genoua and fought for genovese,
franks? yes exist at 1871 they were about 40 000 and today about 60 000
with the word Franks Greeks mean every crusader come and every catholic that immigrate to Greece.

the only who became Greeks are 2
1 Aromani
2 arbanitas,
the rest went away,
Bulgaro-serbs moved to McDonaldia
turks went away
Franks had left 1 generation after the crusade
and venicians?
I don't know how many came and why?
in fact Libro d' oro sais the oposite
venicians if they want to go they go if want to stay they stay,
the Muslims of thrace have their own 2 languages turks and Greek-pomak (Greco-slavic)

all the populations you mention exept aromani are not more than 250 000
in 1821 when slaughters were done, and people were impaled,
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT A FOREIGNER WOULD STAY HERE, OR NEUTRAL?
1821 was not the kossovo war. it was a primitive war, in Europe the knew about Napoleon tactics but here was slain them all,
search the Suliotet case to understand.
end of story provoker, I am not going to put another thread in bucket cause an albanian believes bullshit,

[Antigone]

.......these people became greekized ( if there is such a word)

The word you are looking for is Hellenised.

[zanipolo]

are you nuts? who said about 1 type? even 2 brothers are not the same?

and remember Greeks had goverments at pergamos Seleykeia Alexandreia,
and after 1204 and the damn crusaders we also took the sceptres, like the 4 areas
Epirus Smyrna Mystra and Trapezous,
better read better the greek history,

we never had 1 goverment eve at alexanders time Lakedaimonians had another goverment and Magnas had their owns,

and is only <400 years,
Hello Trebizond was Greek
in fact first general of Greek revolt was from there, and Greek revolt started in Romania, hello

I know what are talking about and where you go again the thread,
just 1 word wake up we survided for 400 years and we are still here,
while you (you know who) served who?
now next thing is to say me that greeks had dissapear and the today are all foreigners,

well you anti-greek feeling again expressed,
ALL WHO FOUGHT WITH US AT 1821 HAVE A HOMELAND,
ALL WHO FOUGHT AGAINST US GO TO HELL,

now about fyrom
the answer is known, get .... zanipolo

catalans in Greece?

genouates in greece?
in fact Greeks moved to Genoua and fought for genovese,
franks? yes exist at 1871 they were about 40 000 and today about 60 000
with the word Franks Greeks mean every crusader come and every catholic that immigrate to Greece.

the only who became Greeks are 2
1 Aromani
2 arbanitas,
the rest went away,
Bulgaro-serbs moved to McDonaldia
turks went away
Franks had left 1 generation after the crusade
and venicians?
I don't know how many came and why?
in fact Libro d' oro sais the oposite
venicians if they want to go they go if want to stay they stay,
the Muslims of thrace have their own 2 languages turks and Greek-pomak (Greco-slavic)

all the populations you mention exept aromani are not more than 250 000
in 1821 when slaughters were done, and people were impaled,
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT A FOREIGNER WOULD STAY HERE, OR NEUTRAL?
1821 was not the kossovo war. it was a primitive war, in Europe the knew about Napoleon tactics but here was slain them all,
search the Suliotet case to understand.
end of story provoker, I am not going to put another thread in bucket cause an albanian believes bullshit,

Who is anti greek is you. I just give the facts , you never heard of the catalan company which became the navaresse company ( from catalan areas) , you never heard of Pedro de San Superano who allied with the tusacn Nerio I Acciaioli who was ruler of the duchy of Athens!! who do you think threw the franks out of Greece.

You never heard of the Genoese, Pisan and Venetians wars for the Aegean islands ( duchy of Naxos ) plus cyprus.

Are you Greek? , if so , what historical rubbish did they teach you in school.....maybe its better than the complete bullshit taught about italian history in Italian schools. I think you cannot be as bad as that.

Explain to me how 2 brothers can be ethnically different, only way I know is if they are born by different mothers, then they would be only half-brothers.

[zanipolo]

The word you are looking for is Hellenised.

thank you , you are correct

[iapetoc]

Who is anti greek is you. I just give the facts , you never heard of the catalan company which became the navaresse company ( from catalan areas) , you never heard of Pedro de San Superano who allied with the tusacn Nerio I Acciaioli who was ruler of the duchy of Athens!! who do you think threw the franks out of Greece.

You never heard of the Genoese, Pisan and Venetians wars for the Aegean islands ( duchy of Naxos ) plus cyprus.

Are you Greek? , if so , what historical rubbish did they teach you in school.....maybe its better than the complete bullshit taught about italian history in Italian schools. I think you cannot be as bad as that.

Explain to me how 2 brothers can be ethnically different, only way I know is if they are born by different mothers, then they would be only half-brothers.

who the pirates?
the catalan company from sicily?
hahaha not one them survived I am sure,

I am not from that places but I understand for who you talk
the ones who make greeks and arvanitas to take mountains
they last enough about 2 generations in duchy of athens

the most unwanted dukes,

[zanipolo]

who the pirates?
the catalan company from sicily?
hahaha not one them survived I am sure,

I am not from that places but I understand for who you talk
the ones who make greeks and arvanitas to take mountains
they last enough about 2 generations in duchy of athens

the most unwanted dukes,

LOL if you say that from 1205 - 1458 is insignificant that this period had catalan, gascon and tuscans as part of the duchy of Athens, then the period of 1824 to 2011 , which is 187 years must also be insignificant , do you agree,