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Thread: Link between haplogroup E and poor economic performance

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    Question Link between haplogroup E and poor economic performance



    I don't want to be controversial on purpose by starting a topic like this one but I couldn't help wonder why there is such a strong correlation between the percentage of haplogroup E in a country and the unemployment rate and low GDP per capita.

    Ranking of haplogroup E frequency in Europe

    Albania 27.5%
    Macedonia 23%
    Serbia 20.5%
    Bulgaria 16%
    Bosnia-Herzegovina 14.5%
    Portugal 14%
    Italy 11%

    Hungary 9.5%
    Spain 7%
    France 7%
    Czech Republic 6%
    Germany 5.5%
    Belgium 5%
    Netherlands 4.5%
    Denmark 2.5%
    Ireland 2%
    Finland 1%
    Sweden 1%
    Norway 1%


    Over 10% of haplogroup E in red, under 5% of haplogroup E in blue.

    Inverted ranking for GDP per capita in Europe

    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    Albania
    Macedonia
    Serbia
    Bulgaria

    Hungary
    Czech Republic
    Portugal
    Spain
    Italy
    Germany
    France
    Belgium
    Finland
    Netherlands
    Sweden
    Denmark
    Ireland
    Norway


    Ranking for unemployment in Europe

    Macedonia 32%
    Bosnia-Herzegovina 29%

    Spain 21.5%
    Serbia 19%
    Ireland 14.5% (6% in 2008)
    Albania 13.5%
    Hungary 12.5%
    Portugal 11%
    Bulgaria 10%

    France 9.5%
    Italy 8.5%
    Sweden 8%
    Finland 8%

    Czech Republic 7.5%
    Belgium 7.5%
    Denmark 7%
    Germany 6%
    Netherlands 4.5%
    Norway 3%


    Corruption Index in Europe (2009)

    Albania 3.2
    Bosnia-Herzegovina 3.2
    Serbia 3.4
    Macedonia 3.8
    Bulgaria 3.8
    Italy 4.3

    Czech Republic 4.9
    Hungary 5.1
    Portugal 5.8
    Spain 6.1
    France 6.9
    Belgium 7.1
    Germany 8.0
    Ireland 8.0
    Norway 8.6
    Netherlands 8.8
    Finland 8.9
    Sweden 9.2
    Denmark 9.3



    It is not an exact correlation of course but the general order is quite similar. The haplogroup E ranking looks like the average of GDP per capita, unemployment and corruption. The ranking by corruption index matches best the frequency of haplogroup E.

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    But this study suggests is only for today or will do in all periods of history?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlitos View Post
    But this study suggests is only for today or will do in all periods of history?
    It is for today because there isn't data for all periods in history. The unemployment rate can change fast. It used to be low in the UK and Ireland 5 or 10 years ago, but has been climbing steadily since the credit crunch. The GDP per capita ranking doesn't change much from year to year, but can be quite different after two or three decades. Look at Ireland. It passed from the poorest country in Western Europe in the 1950's to the richest now after Luxembourg. Things like corruption are more stable in time because they are deeply set in cultures and do not depend on short-term swings in economic circumstances. I think that's why the corruption index is the best match here. The corruption rate in a same culture doesn't change much over centuries. There was a lot of corruption in ancient Greece and Rome, in medieval Italy and in the Byzantine Empire, and there is still now in modern Italy and Greece. There was very little corruption in Scandinavia in the Middle Ages, and it is still true now. Corruption is absolutely rampant in Africa, at all levels of society, in richer and poorer regions, and it is also in Africa that haplogroup E is the most common. Is it just a coincidence ? It could be. Perhaps because haplogroup E is more frequent in hot countries. But then why South Italy more corrupted than the North, and Portugal more than Spain, and Serbia more than Croatia ? It's always the region with the higher percentage of haplogroup E that is more corrupted among neighbouring and otherwise similar regions. Despite enjoying a much higher GDP per capita, Greece has a corruption level equivalent to Macedonia, Albania and Serbia, and all four have over 20% of haplogroup E.

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    Where exactly did you find data about corruption in ancient Greece and Rome?

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    hmmm i just wonder about the conclusion???

    just think 1 thing

    when in Balkans we had ottomans with 20000 aspra you were a bey and many poor had the chance of life time,

    corruption has to do with poverty,

    not with Y-DNA

    besides if we take the other side of razor

    except scands the west europe are the bigest stealers in the world.

    just thing that even today they steal the diamonds from poor people in south africa,


    so GDP per capita could not only mean hard worker or not corrupted, but good thief also.


    I just wonder how much E have the arab rich countries and how much GDP per capita???????

    like Libya who's GDP is very big, but only few families that can have it,

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    Jacker22
    It is for today because there isn't data for all periods in history.
    Nor is there data on his study, has simply chosen at random. The E of Europe are marked on the forehead, most people do not know what haplogroup belong, do you think the E of Europe are different from their countrymen? I do not see the relationship he wants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    corruption has to do with poverty,

    not with Y-DNA
    Interesting topic of discussion. I have personally wonder why corruption was so high in rich places like Japan or northern Italy, where people obviously aren't needy. I had a look at the corruption index and saw that New Zealand was the 2nd least corrupted. It's interesting as the GDP per capita at PPP (the one that should have been used for the above study as it reflects better the disposable income of individuals once adjusted for the cost of life) of New Zealand is lower than Greece, but Greece happens to be the most corrupted country in the EU (more corrupted than poorer Eastern European countries; incidentally a major reason why Greece is having so much financial problems at the moment).

    So it doesn't look like corruption is related to poverty after all. Poverty surely has a detrimental effect on corruption, but if you compare countries of similar wealth and development, there will always be major differences in corruption level between them, especially if the language and culture are very different. English-speaking countries, for instance, have similar cultures and therefore don't vary much in corruption levels. Interestingly, even English-speaking countries where the population is overwhelmingly East Asian, like Hong Kong and Singapore, have very low corruption levels, whereas the country of their source populations (China, Malaysia, India) are very corrupted. One could argue that it is because they are rich city-states. However, Macau is about as rich, is just next door to Hong Kong, and yet has a much worse corruption score (5.0 against 8.4 for Hong Kong). So if anything had an influence on corruption levels, I would say it was language and (economic) culture.

    As for the relation to haplogroup E, there is obviously some sort of correlation in Europe as the data shows. But haplogroup E is absent from Asia where there is also plenty of corruption. Perhaps the author suggested that some genes involved into the traits of character facilitating corruption migrated along with people who happened to belong to haplogroup E. If that is so, it would not mean that belonging to haplogroup E makes a person more corruptible, but genes involved in corruptible character tend to be found at higher levels where the average rate of haplogroup E is higher within a specific population. It's like saying that blond hair were spread by people belonging to haplogroup R1a. It obviously doesn't mean that being R1a is the condition to be blond. Being R1a has no effect at all on hair colour. But the incidence of blond hair does tend to correlate with the incidence of R1a in a population. Regarding R1a the correlation works well for Europe, but less well in Asia. It could be the same for E1b1b and corruption in Europe. If the original people who spread E1b1b around Europe had genes strongly favouring corruption, then it is entirely possible that a true genetic correlation exists between the two. Just keep in mind that genes are never the only factor in human behaviour.

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    I think that there is no correlation. Haplo group E simply originates from areas where living conditions are harder then in North-West Europe. Compare the Balkan with counties like The Netherlands, Belgium and Germany.
    In North West Europe the country is flat. That made it possible to build an economic infrastructure.
    An area with a lot of mountains makes it harder to develop.
    An exception may be Switzerland, but they had the advantage to have their banks.

    BTW The Netherlands seem to have a low unemployment, but in real life figures lie.
    Many people have to work part time and for a low wage just to make ends meet.
    And low corruption? There is a lot of corruption in The Netherlands.
    But that corruption is limited to the "white collar" people.
    Captains of industry, politicians, some banking directors.
    The real crooks can pay the best lawyers.
    Justice doesn't work for the working class.

    Yes, we're sliding into an American scenario.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    I think that there is no correlation. Haplo group E simply originates from areas where living conditions are harder then in North-West Europe. Compare the Balkan with counties like The Netherlands, Belgium and Germany.
    In North West Europe the country is flat. That made it possible to build an economic infrastructure.
    An area with a lot of mountains makes it harder to develop.
    An exception may be Switzerland, but they had the advantage to have their banks.
    The two richest countries in Europe are mountain countries, Norway and Switzerland. Britain and Ireland are hilly. Austria, France, Italy and Spain have quite a lot of mountains too. Ukraine, Belarus and Poland are poor and flat. There is no correlation at all !

    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    And low corruption? There is a lot of corruption in The Netherlands.
    But that corruption is limited to the "white collar" people.
    Captains of industry, politicians, some banking directors.
    The real crooks can pay the best lawyers.
    Justice doesn't work for the working class.
    You confuse corruption and swindle or fraud. An example of corruption is having to pay a civil servant to get a government permit that you couldn't get otherwise. Another example is to have to pay the police so that they stop harassing you. Another example is a company that pays decision-makers in the administration to obtain a public contract. Tax evasion is fraud, not corruption. Theft, robbery, swindle are all crimes, but none are corruption. I don't see in what way Dutch bank directors could be corrupted. How often do you have to pay the bank clerk to speed up paperwork in the Netherlands ? How often are you told by a civil servant that something isn't possible, then suddenly becomes possible when you slide a few bank notes under the counter ? That is the meaning of corruption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacker22 View Post
    I don't want to be controversial on purpose by starting a topic like this one but I couldn't help wonder why there is such a strong correlation between the percentage of haplogroup E in a country and the unemployment rate and low GDP per capita.

    Ranking of haplogroup E frequency in Europe

    Albania 27.5%
    Macedonia 23%
    Serbia 20.5%
    Bulgaria 16%
    Bosnia-Herzegovina 14.5%
    Portugal 14%
    Italy 11%

    Hungary 9.5%
    Spain 7%
    France 7%
    Czech Republic 6%
    Germany 5.5%
    Belgium 5%
    Netherlands 4.5%
    Denmark 2.5%
    Ireland 2%
    Finland 1%
    Sweden 1%
    Norway 1%


    Over 10% of haplogroup E in red, under 5% of haplogroup E in blue.

    Inverted ranking for GDP per capita in Europe

    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    Albania
    Macedonia
    Serbia
    Bulgaria

    Hungary
    Czech Republic
    Portugal
    Spain
    Italy
    Germany
    France
    Belgium
    Finland
    Netherlands
    Sweden
    Denmark
    Ireland
    Norway


    Ranking for unemployment in Europe

    Macedonia 32%
    Bosnia-Herzegovina 29%

    Spain 21.5%
    Serbia 19%
    Ireland 14.5% (6% in 2008)
    Albania 13.5%
    Hungary 12.5%
    Portugal 11%
    Bulgaria 10%

    France 9.5%
    Italy 8.5%
    Sweden 8%
    Finland 8%

    Czech Republic 7.5%
    Belgium 7.5%
    Denmark 7%
    Germany 6%
    Netherlands 4.5%
    Norway 3%


    Corruption Index in Europe (2009)

    Albania 3.2
    Bosnia-Herzegovina 3.2
    Serbia 3.4
    Macedonia 3.8
    Bulgaria 3.8
    Italy 4.3

    Czech Republic 4.9
    Hungary 5.1
    Portugal 5.8
    Spain 6.1
    France 6.9
    Belgium 7.1
    Germany 8.0
    Ireland 8.0
    Norway 8.6
    Netherlands 8.8
    Finland 8.9
    Sweden 9.2
    Denmark 9.3



    It is not an exact correlation of course but the general order is quite similar. The haplogroup E ranking looks like the average of GDP per capita, unemployment and corruption. The ranking by corruption index matches best the frequency of haplogroup E.
    actually, key correlation is history...
    best off are countries that didnot have wars in recent history, worst are countries that were destroyed economically due to the wars in recent history.... also countries that were under communism perform worse because, due to following wrong advices of IMF, transition from one to another system was in general done too rapidly and improperly...

    another thing is isolation... e.g. Albania lived isolated during most of it s communist period.... Serbia had several years of economical sanctions due to allegations that it was involved in civil wars in neighboring republics.... Serbia also had NATO bombing that targeted industry and infrastructure as well...


    and there is another additional cause - climate...
    people on north tend to be more hard working simply because it is so much easier to be hard working on 20 degrees Celsius than on 35 degrees..... it is just not equally easy to work in Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and in Netherlands, Germany.... it is also a culture issue... while on south people could live well due to abundance of vegetation also during winter, people on north in past had to work more hard to survive...

    so much about your haplogroup correlation...
    in fact, this thread has racism in its basis...
    and there is some unjustified anti-Greek sentiment swaying over messages..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacker22 View Post
    The two richest countries in Europe are mountain countries, Norway and Switzerland. Britain and Ireland are hilly. Austria, France, Italy and Spain have quite a lot of mountains too. Ukraine, Belarus and Poland are poor and flat. There is no correlation at all !
    How_Yes_No explained that further.
    It's a complex story how one country got better developed than another.
    But in general, a nice infrastructure helps.

    You confuse corruption and swindle or fraud. An example of corruption is having to pay a civil servant to get a government permit that you couldn't get otherwise. Another example is to have to pay the police so that they stop harassing you. Another example is a company that pays decision-makers in the administration to obtain a public contract. Tax evasion is fraud, not corruption. Theft, robbery, swindle are all crimes, but none are corruption. I don't see in what way Dutch bank directors could be corrupted. How often do you have to pay the bank clerk to speed up paperwork in the Netherlands ? How often are you told by a civil servant that something isn't possible, then suddenly becomes possible when you slide a few bank notes under the counter ? That is the meaning of corruption.
    Corruption and fraud is just the same. It's fraud altogether.
    In The Netherlands corruption is an institution forced by the government upon the population by law.
    It's ridiculous how many tax we have to pay!

    People drive around with a sticker on their car..
    "Don't steal this car, the state hates rivals."

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    and there is another additional cause - climate...
    people on north tend to be more hard working simply because it is so much easier to be hard working on 20 degrees Celsius than on 35 degrees..... it is just not equally easy to work in Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and in Netherlands, Germany

    in fact, this thread has racism in its basis...
    and there is some unjustified anti-Greek sentiment swaying over messages..
    The climate argument is not plausible. Do people in warmer climates work outside?
    I'm not sure if you have heard of air conditioning, it's a new thing. Perhaps I should start a business selling it to southern Europeans because it's so much cooler here I can work faster, being generally more productive and revolutioninse the economies of the West with air conditioning units for offices!

    America is very warm in parts and California is the US biggest economy I believe so that theory doesn't add up.

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    GDP per capita - image source

    Haplogroup E (Y-dna)

    image source

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    I just wonder how much E have the arab rich countries and how much GDP per capita???????

    like Libya who's GDP is very big, but only few families that can have it,
    Arab countries are reach only due to oil...

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    Quote Originally Posted by edao View Post
    The climate argument is not plausible. Do people in warmer climates work outside?
    I'm not sure if you have heard of air conditioning, it's a new thing. Perhaps I should start a business selling it to southern Europeans because it's so much cooler here I can work faster, being generally more productive and revolutioninse the economies of the West with air conditioning units for offices!

    America is very warm in parts and California is the US biggest economy I believe so that theory doesn't add up.

    what? California has same Depth as Greece and bigger it is rich but full of Depths
    simply the USA system works differernt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Interesting topic of discussion. I have personally wonder why corruption was so high in rich places like Japan or northern Italy, where people obviously aren't needy. I had a look at the corruption index and saw that New Zealand was the 2nd least corrupted. It's interesting as the GDP per capita at PPP (the one that should have been used for the above study as it reflects better the disposable income of individuals once adjusted for the cost of life) of New Zealand is lower than Greece, but Greece happens to be the most corrupted country in the EU (more corrupted than poorer Eastern European countries; incidentally a major reason why Greece is having so much financial problems at the moment).

    So it doesn't look like corruption is related to poverty after all. Poverty surely has a detrimental effect on corruption, but if you compare countries of similar wealth and development, there will always be major differences in corruption level between them, especially if the language and culture are very different. English-speaking countries, for instance, have similar cultures and therefore don't vary much in corruption levels. Interestingly, even English-speaking countries where the population is overwhelmingly East Asian, like Hong Kong and Singapore, have very low corruption levels, whereas the country of their source populations (China, Malaysia, India) are very corrupted. One could argue that it is because they are rich city-states. However, Macau is about as rich, is just next door to Hong Kong, and yet has a much worse corruption score (5.0 against 8.4 for Hong Kong). So if anything had an influence on corruption levels, I would say it was language and (economic) culture.

    As for the relation to haplogroup E, there is obviously some sort of correlation in Europe as the data shows. But haplogroup E is absent from Asia where there is also plenty of corruption. Perhaps the author suggested that some genes involved into the traits of character facilitating corruption migrated along with people who happened to belong to haplogroup E. If that is so, it would not mean that belonging to haplogroup E makes a person more corruptible, but genes involved in corruptible character tend to be found at higher levels where the average rate of haplogroup E is higher within a specific population. It's like saying that blond hair were spread by people belonging to haplogroup R1a. It obviously doesn't mean that being R1a is the condition to be blond. Being R1a has no effect at all on hair colour. But the incidence of blond hair does tend to correlate with the incidence of R1a in a population. Regarding R1a the correlation works well for Europe, but less well in Asia. It could be the same for E1b1b and corruption in Europe. If the original people who spread E1b1b around Europe had genes strongly favouring corruption, then it is entirely possible that a true genetic correlation exists between the two. Just keep in mind that genes are never the only factor in human behaviour.

    I know about DNA and sentimental, some genes may give another degree of sentiment due to produce more hormons or started more easily by an enzyma,
    I know about DNA and strength or working power, like E Ydna people, have best athletic results in many sports but not in sports like sphere

    I just can not imagine what has to do with corruption,

    well I am waiting the author of the trhead to explain what means with word corruption,

    cause there are many corruptions,

    now about Norway and sweden, hmmmm I wonder how much free land they have to use,

    example from an area of 10 000 m2 or an area of 40 000 m2 the result is different,
    If I give you the 2 fields and a tractor then surely the bigger will give better results,

    I said about South Africa but no one answered,
    1 company gets all the rich of South Africa,
    if all south Africans had the diamonds of their land do you believe the GDP capita will be the same?

    Now corruption has to do with tv cinema and life style,
    in 1950 in Europe how many people smoking?
    in 70s after watching John Wayne and others with a cigarette all day in mouth how many used to smoked?

    the same is corruption,
    ok Greece is corrupted now days,

    but lets see the other case who is creating corruption
    the 4 biggest late scandals in Greece are
    1 the siemens case
    2 the ferostaal case
    3 the vatopedi case
    4 the stock exchange and the Golmans sachs connection,
    as you see from 3/4 the corruption is also connected with non internal cases,

    corruption has nothing to do with who is losing, but also who is earning,
    in the above example like Siemans why are greeks corrupted and not Germans?

    why the richest land in the world Kimberly in South Africa lives in such conditions,

    And on the other hand lets see the social corruption?

    Are the south Asian corrupted for selling their Kids to some rich people?
    well yes
    but
    Are the Europeans and USAers corrupted who buy that kids from south Asia????
    hmmm

    lets see the other case in time,

    in early 80s people lived in Greece with opened doors and cars with no alarm
    today they are afraid to walk after 8:00
    why? cause that time due to low criminality the penalties were high and many cases reach the judge,
    today law is so different that if I sent someone to judge I have to feed him for many days until the judge decides,
    that is bringing extra criminality but not written in police statistics cause no body goes to report.

    now about corruption and DNA
    I believe corruption has to do with information, education, punishment, and media, and needs
    when media all day show you 'famous women' you addicted to porn.
    when the thieves are not punished then more thieves will born,

    I wrote a thread about India and child marriage, as Pedophilia,
    for me it is a social corruption, but no body answer,
    what about pedophilia in today western world?
    what is difference among europe and India?
    simply we hide behind and don't marry the kids. which is more corrupted for me at least in a social degree,

    I will go to nearby Italy,
    When Italy had strong Mafia, the rates of development where high,
    but criminality also,
    today with low rates of corruption has also low rates of development, if compared with earkier years, but surely low criminality,

    the subject is more economical to me,

    about hong-kong lets go back and compare it with 70s corrupton where it was one of the highest criminality places,

    corruption has to do with Chigaco theory of moving capitals,
    when I move capitals from one area to another,
    1rst I must break the older social structure,
    2nd I must bomb their eyes with Dolce Vita, pretty woman, and consume my products
    3rd I must create criminality, so normal people must afraid to talk or protest
    4rth I must buy politicians to push my corruption work,

    in1830 when potatoes came to Greece NOBODY EAT THEM AS IMPORTED CORRUPTED PRODUCT
    after 2 years prime minister order to save them in national treasury,
    in 2 years potatoe was a fashion and a delicacy
    it needed 5 years to persuade a Greek about potato,
    and today with media the next day all go and buy new product

    Comparing with Time and the above I don't believe it is DNA the corruption, but mind and willing and sentimental,
    simply DNA can give more sentimental degree,
    like we both eat a delicacy but my joy is bigger than yours,
    but the case of 1830 Greeks as corrupted with today also is more a social issue and a way to think,
    at 1930 greeks loved their donkeys and despite the cars,
    today they despite the donkeys and love cars,

    corruption comes when a twisted mind buys the soul of a poor man who's dream is to live at least 1 day as a Sultan, to taste the forbiden to him


    A child borned in an enviroment of critisism becomes a good judge,
    A child raised in an enviroment of violence learns how to box
    A child born in an enviroment of fortune hunt becomes corrupted,

    Corruption in greece always existed, but ignition to high levels came after the 1950 with marshal plan
    the times when whores get x10 x20 the money of a doctor in one night.

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    Arab countries are reach only due to oil...
    correct but GDP belongs only to few families who give money to rest according their will.
    Last edited by iapetoc; 03-07-11 at 16:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edao View Post
    The climate argument is not plausible. Do people in warmer climates work outside?
    I'm not sure if you have heard of air conditioning, it's a new thing. Perhaps I should start a business selling it to southern Europeans because it's so much cooler here I can work faster, being generally more productive and revolutioninse the economies of the West with air conditioning units for offices!

    America is very warm in parts and California is the US biggest economy I believe so that theory doesn't add up.
    lol, can't wait to see your construction sites or agriculture fields with ventilation..

    besides, ventilation costs money... private company will not invest in it unless it has to...

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    it makes sense...

    we do not have too much E in latin america, and we are much less corrupted than many of the european countries in that list.

    our employment rate is the same as the richest countries for the most part, and our social conditions also.

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    Haplogroup E in South Eastern Europe correlates well with former Byzantium and Ottoman empire. Was there corruption in those two empire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canek View Post
    it makes sense...

    we do not have too much E in latin america, and we are much less corrupted than many of the european countries in that list.
    Latin america is one of the most corrupted part of the Planet

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    In Spain is there also link between haplogroup E, subclade E-M81 is the majority here, and poor economy.
    The richest regions in Spain (Madrid apart) are the Basque Country, Navarra, Aragon and Catalonia, which are those that have less presence of E-M81.
    Instead the poorest regions are regions where E-M81 is more abundant: Its High in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies Reaching 8% in Extremadura and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia, 10% in Western Andalusia Northwest and Castile and 9% to 17% in Cantabria (nearly 40% in Valle del Pas).
    Although Cantabria is intermediate between the richest and the poorest.

    Personally I think education is by far more important than the presence of Haplogroup E.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    actually, key correlation is history...
    best off are countries that didnot have wars in recent history, worst are countries that were destroyed economically due to the wars in recent history.... also countries that were under communism perform worse because, due to following wrong advices of IMF, transition from one to another system was in general done too rapidly and improperly...
    It is true that wars damage a lot economies, but most of Europe was at war between 1940 and 1945. Only a few countries like Switzerland, Sweden or Ireland escaped WWII. Ironically Ireland was still the poorest Western or Northern European country in the aftermath of WWII. Its dramatic economic growth started much later thanks to US investments. Apart from former Yugoslavia (which does not include Macedonia or Albania, btw), wars don't explain why the Balkans are so much poorer than the rest of Europe.

    another thing is isolation... e.g. Albania lived isolated during most of it s communist period.
    Switzerland doesn't seem to have suffer too much from its self-imposed isolationist policy. They still don't want to join the EU, or NATO, or pretty much any other international organisation.


    and there is another additional cause - climate...
    people on north tend to be more hard working simply because it is so much easier to be hard working on 20 degrees Celsius than on 35 degrees..... it is just not equally easy to work in Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and in Netherlands, Germany.... it is also a culture issue... while on south people could live well due to abundance of vegetation also during winter, people on north in past had to work more hard to survive...
    So why is it that the Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese or Thai are so hard working ? Northern China notwithstanding, their climate is hotter than pretty much anywhere in Europe. Most of Japan is subtropical (a bit like Florida). Besides Americans work hard in hot states like California, Arizona, Texas or Florida too. Australians are much more productive than most Mediterraneans, even though their climate is even hotter.

    so much about your haplogroup correlation...
    in fact, this thread has racism in its basis...
    and there is some unjustified anti-Greek sentiment swaying over messages..
    Haplogroup E has penetrated all populations of Europe. It is not unique to Greece, not even greater Greece with the Balkans and South Italy. Some parts of Greece have a lower percentage of haplogroup E than Belarus or West Germany !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Haplogroup E has penetrated all populations of Europe. It is not unique to Greece, not even greater Greece with the Balkans and South Italy. Some parts of Greece have a lower percentage of haplogroup E than Belarus or West Germany !
    Yes, almost all European countries have their small percentage of haplogroup E (exactly E-M78 in Central Europe and Balkans). But overall in Greece reaches over 25%, while in Belarus and Germany does not even reach 5%, Although figures vary from one sample to another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edao View Post

    GDP per capita - image source

    Haplogroup E (Y-dna)

    image source
    Good map ! Namibia and Botswana have much less haplogroup E and they are the two least corrupted African countries. Isn't that just amazing ! Botswana (index 5.8) is less corrupted than Poland, Hungary or the Czech Republic. Namibia (4.4) is a bit more corrupted but less than Slovakia, Croatia, Turkey or anywhere in the Balkans.

    In the Arabian peninsula, Yemen has the most haplogroup E and is the most corrupted (2.2). Oman (5.3) and the United Emirates (6.3) have the least haplogroup E and are the least corrupted.

    Morocco and Algeria have about as much haplogroup E as Yemen and have similar corruption indices (3.4 and 2.9). Somalia and Angola are dark green spots on the map, and are among the very worst countries for corruption (1.1 and 1.9). Whoa, it's almost mathematical !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacker22 View Post
    Good map ! Namibia and Botswana have much less haplogroup E and they are the two least corrupted African countries. Isn't that just amazing ! Botswana (index 5.8) is less corrupted than Poland, Hungary or the Czech Republic. Namibia (4.4) is a bit more corrupted but less than Slovakia, Croatia, Turkey or anywhere in the Balkans.

    In the Arabian peninsula, Yemen has the most haplogroup E and is the most corrupted (2.2). Oman (5.3) and the United Emirates (6.3) have the least haplogroup E and are the least corrupted. Morocco and Algeria is about as much haplogroup E as Yemen and have similar corruption indices (3.4 and 2.9). Whoa, it's almost mathematical !

    There is a problem: Sudan, one of the most corrupt countries in the world.
    That map is too simple although it's valid to get a general idea about distribution of haplogroup E.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It is true that wars damage a lot economies, but most of Europe was at war between 1940 and 1945. Only a few countries like Switzerland, Sweden or Ireland escaped WWII. Ironically Ireland was still the poorest Western or Northern European country in the aftermath of WWII. Its dramatic economic growth started much later thanks to US investments.
    wars damage economies, but can also depending on circumstances influence differently moral of different nations....

    Switzerland and Scandinavian countries has continuity of development not really interrupted by second world war destructions....
    most other west European countries also had lot of peaceful periods in last few honderd years...
    and many of them were collonial powers, which means they were for long periods of history in posession of natural resources that didnot belong to them, and in possession of cheap labour of own colonies....


    in Balkan, ever since 15th century, most countries were slaves of Otoman empire till 19th century (some as Albania and Macedonia even until short before first world war, and Bosnia until it was taken over by Austro-hungarian empire in the end of 19th century which was essentially just changing crude slave owner for more sophisticated one... )..

    having no state of your own means being someone's colony.... and that is not really good environment to develop economy or working habits....

    In Serbia, between 15th and 19th century, Serbs did live only in villages...while towns were populated by Turks, and islamized Serbs who were by ordinary people denounced as "Turks" worse than Turks (e.g. I have read that ancestors of Bosnian muslims war leader Alija Izetbegovic were such islamized family that was ruling in Belgrade area, and were after liberation forced to leave Serbia) ...

    thing is that in Ottoman empire in Balkan taxes for non-islamic population were extremely high, while taxes for islamic people were not existing..... so there was no chance to have own economy... working hard didnot pay off... more hard you work more you give to Turks (mostly to "Turks" who needed to live in comfort without working), and same is left to you...

    as soon as there was (happened after WW2) period of few decades of peace and having own country, ex-yugoslavia was fast among more developed countries in Europe...

    regarding non-Balkan countries with some haplogroup E....
    how could African countries develop when they were colonies till quite recently... it meant that they have their own Turks and "Turks".... since they did not liberate themselves, once their Turks were gone after world war 2, they still had "Turks" in power and both "Turks"and Turks as owners of resources... in economical sense, Africa is still a colony... besides, climate there is terrible.... and big part of wealth of west europe is due to centuries of stealing resources from colonies like the ones in Africa... so, if moral values are changing, I would expect that west europe helps its ex-colonies to compensate for centuries of hampering their development and stealing their resources...... though now we have a case that ex-colony helps ex-owner in case of Brasil and Portugal....

    Apart from former Yugoslavia (which does not include Macedonia or Albania, btw), wars don't explain why the Balkans are so much poorer than the rest of Europe.
    former Yugoslavia does include Macedonia
    and there was also war in Macedonia - between Macedonians and Albanians who live there... perhaps it was not so much covered in media because both sides were considered allies of west, so it was not easy to assign black and white roles to sides.... same as armed conflicts between muslims and Croats in Bosnia were hardly covered by west media....


    Switzerland doesn't seem to have suffer too much from its self-imposed isolationist policy. They still don't want to join the EU, or NATO, or pretty much any other international organisation.
    I wouldnot call that isolationism... they just refuse to participate in organizations that in their opinion will not bring them benefit..... they do not cut economy flows...

    isolationism of communist albania meant it is not ready to coperate with either west or east countries due to ideological differences....
    economic isolation of Serbia was enforced by UN and meant no flow of economy over the borders...

    neither is comparable to a country choosing not to join EU or NATO....
    it is like you compare imprisoned person placed in solitary with a person who doesnot want to be a member of local library or video club...

    So why is it that the Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese or Thai are so hard working ? Northern China notwithstanding, their climate is hotter than pretty much anywhere in Europe. Most of Japan is subtropical (a bit like Florida). Besides Americans work hard in hot states like California, Arizona, Texas or Florida too. Australians are much more productive than most Mediterraneans, even though their climate is even hotter.
    Japanese are exceptional in many cases...
    the others are not much more efficent than Mediterranian or Balkan people...

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