Link between haplogroup E and poor economic performance

Hmm.. Still an equation that doesn't fit. It seems new racism has been established. War between the I's and the E's.

How stupid can you get? :useless:

My management teacher already told me many years ago that statistics are a higher form of lying.
With statistics you can manipulate anything into your own advantage.

I know some people in my region that have YDNA E, and they are intellectuals, one does even a great job (no pay) to look into archives and make short descriptions about the contents.
Just for other scholars to be able to investigate.
Real altruism, completely the opposite of corruption!



INDEED,

i WONDER IF THERE IS TWISTED FRACTURE AMONG y-dna

i WONDER WHO IS THE MOST TWISTED?

THE CORRUPTED OR THE ONE WHO CORRUPTS,
 
Come on Maciamo, your attempt to paint the East Roman & Ottoman Empires as interchangeable is utterly ridiculous. You are clearly a very intelligent & knowledgable person and I love to pop in and read your posts but it's also no secret (well believe me it's obvious to a lot of us) that you have a massive Barbarian bias that interrupts your objectivity... btw, of course we would have preferred the yoke of your Hapsburgs over the completely alien Ottomans at any given stage of our history.

First of all, I did not want to depict the Byzantine and Ottoman Empire as interchangeable. The problem of forums is that people easily lose track of how and why arguments were put forward. Let's rewind a bit.

A) In the OP, Jacker22 proposed the hypothesis that the percentage of haplogroup E in a population correlated with corruption, unemployment and lower GDP per capita.

B) How yes no refuted this correlation, stating that : "best off are countries that did not have wars in recent history, worst are countries that were destroyed economically due to the wars in recent history."

C) To which I replied that the Balkans actually suffered less wars in the last 1500 years than Western Europe (I gave the example of France being at war pretty much constantly with its neighbours, and internecine wars within Germany and within Italy). While wars of conquest were being waged in most of Europe, borders redrawn constantly from the Middle Ages until WWII, most of the Balkans (except Romania) were a region of relative stability in comparison because they only changed ruler and system once in roughly 1000 years (or twice in 1500 years if we count the Bulgarian Empire). During the same period the region that is now Belgium changed hands 9 times before becoming an independent country in 1830, and that is without counting the numerous wars fought by other countries on its territory (including Louis XIV and Louis XV against the Spaniards, English and Dutch, and Napoleon against all Europe, and the Germans invading neutral Belgium to invade France in WWI and WWII). The Balkans (Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro and Bosnia) only changed hands three times between the Roman conquest 2000 years ago and the break-up of the Ottoman Empire. They were Roman/Byzantine, then Bulgarian Turk, then Ottoman Turk. Very few wars were fought in the Balkans between the 11th and the late 19th century, apart from the Ottoman conquest itself. The main battles fought with neighbouring superpowers took place in WWI and WWII, except the war between Ottomans and Austro-Hungarians, which was staged mainly in Romania, Hungary and Austria (so around the Carpathians rather than the Balkans).

My point was therefore that poverty in the Balkans couldn't be explained by a particular profusion of wars in its history compared to Western Europe. My argument had nothing to do with the cultural or political differences between Byzantines and Ottomans. That was one transition, one empire being taken over in its entirety by another, even if they were very different people with a different languages and religions. Local languages survived throughout the Ottoman Empire anyway (there was no real will to obliterate them and force people to speak Turkish), and religion was free too (no Inquisition, just a tax on people who chose no to convert to Islam, but many people in the Balkans did convert). So even that wasn't a terrible problem.
 
THE CORRUPTED OR THE ONE WHO CORRUPTS,

These are two faces of the same coin. Corruption cannot exist without a mutual agreement between the corrupter and the corrupted. If someone has strong principles against corruption, he/she will not try to corrupt and will not accept proposals of corruption.

corruption has to do with poverty,

not with Y-DNA

Most traits of characters are hereditary, therefore genetic. This is why different breeds of dogs have clearly different characters (some more aggressive, some more sociable, some more protective, some more playful, some better at herding, some better at helping people...). Even religiosity and sexual faithfulness are deeply rooted in our genes. I doubt that corruptibility isn't. However it is almost certain that the Y-chromosome has no effect on it. The genes is almost certainly autosomal, but could have been spread by people carrying one or several specific haplogroups. In fact, genes are always spread by people from one region to other regions. People from a specific region will carry haplogroups specific to that region. Consequently there can be a correlation between the spread of autosomal genes and one or a few Y-DNA haplogroups.

For example, Hemochromatosis and Huntington disease originated in the Scandinavian population. The Vikings spread them to the regions they conquered. Because the Vikings carried (among others) I1 lineages, it can be said that there is a link between the diffusion of I1 by the Vikings and these two diseases. It doesn't mean that an Irish or North French person who belongs to I1 will have these diseases of course. But the incidence of both diseases will probably correlate to the percentage of I1 in a region, because they "travel" in the local gene pool.

I am also convinced that other traits influencing the economy, such as diligence or laziness are genetic too. It seems that the populations descending ultimately from the ancient Chinese (Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese + some Thai) and from the ancient Germans are particularly hard-working and meticulous. The is strong genetic disposition might even have originated in Siberia or Central Asia.

As for laziness, it has been proven that a few genetic conditions that help prevent malaria, like Sickle-cell disease in Africa and Thalassemia in the Mediterranean region, do cause anaemia and therefore lethargy and a natural predisposition to "laziness". Now that I think about it, seeing the distribution map for Sickle cell disease, it might truly be that haplogroup E does correlate with laziness via the spread of Sickle cell anaemia. Have a look at the map, it is startling how it matches the distribution of haplogroup E in the Balkans, South Italy and Anatolia.

Sickle_cell_distribution.jpg


Thalassemia has a similar distribution but fills the gaps in North Africa, Iberia and southern France too.

art133b.gif


Hot weather isn't the reason of lower activity in Southeast Europe; malaria is (or rather was, but contributed in changing people's genes).
 
I have to thank Maciamo for his support here. His argumentation makes a lot of sense. Bringing up sickle cell anemia and thalassemia add strength to the theory. I for one never thought that belonging to haplogroup E makes a person more lazy or corrupt, but the correlation between poor economic indicators and haplogroup E was there. I think that Maciamo managed to identify the genetic factor that is linked to haplogroup E and induces these economic troubles. Whatever the history of the Balkans, how could south Italy be blighted by rampant unemployment for so long and be so much poorer when the north, the same country, is hugely prosperous ? What I noticed was that haplogroup E was twice as frequent in the south. The map shows that sickle cell anemia is only a problem in the south. Genetically induced anemia may account for unemployment and low GDP per capita, but I don't think it explains corruption unless corruption is caused by poverty or laziness.
 
Yes, almost all European countries have their small percentage of haplogroup E (exactly E-M78 in Central Europe and Balkans). But overall in Greece reaches over 25%, while in Belarus and Germany does not even reach 5%, Although figures vary from one sample to another.

It is a common misconception that haplogroup E is low in Germany or in places so much north as Belarus. I have complied Y-DNA data from all the studies I could find for all European countries, and I can assert that West Germany has about 8% of haplogroup E, while Belarus approximates 9%. This isn't strange for West Germany since haplogroup E reaches 11% in Wallonia and 7% in the eastern part of Flanders (province of Limburg) in adjoining Belgium, and 10% in Alsace. Incidentally, the unemployment rate in Wallonia is awful (15% was the average for the last 10 years) and corruption is a major problem (Walloons are often dubbed Italians of the North, partly because of this).

As for Greece, it is a very carved and fragmented country with strongly varying haplogroup frequencies between regions. While northern Greece can exceed 30% of haplogroup E, Crete is under 10% and some islands have under 5% of E. Greeks may think of themselves as one ethnic group, but DNA rather suggests a confederacy of many ethnicities.
 
This isn't strange for West Germany since haplogroup E reaches 11% in Wallonia and 7% in the eastern part of Flanders (province of Limburg) in adjoining Belgium, and 10% in Alsace.

10% of E in Alsace is interesting. I wonder which subclade of E is this
 
10% of E in Alsace is interesting. I wonder which subclade of E is this

I have the data from Ramos-Luis et al. (2009). It says that 6.25% of Alsatians belong to E1b1b1a and 3.75% belong to E1b1b1c1. According to the ISOGG phylogeny of 2009, E1b1b1a would be E-M78 and E1b1b1c1 would be E-M34 (subclade of M123). It is likely that a good deal of the E-M78 is actually E-V13 because this is by far the most common subclade in Belgium. 70% haplogroup E subclades in Belgium are M78, including 55% of V13. 25% are are M34. The proportions of M78 to M34 in Belgium and Alsace are not that different. The Belgian data is more accurate as it relies on 1000 samples, against only 80 for Alsace.
 
It seems that the Marne-Moselle celtic culture brought a great deal of E
 
Many explanations for phenomena have their basis in human DNA or the genes that is organized, which in combination with other genes are compressed into compact complex structures called chromosomes. The human being in his cell has 46 chromosomes, 23 contributed by the father and 23 provided by the mother at the time of fertilization. Alli is the information of the product of conception, rather in the interaction of genes of the father and mother during intrauterine gestation.

This preamble is to argue that over time the social phenomena and tried to explain human behavior to scientific knowledge throwing hand to support philosophical doctrines and find arguments to justify some policies implemented by groups or centers of power. With money, you could finance-oriented research results that favor the tenets of the groups power to enforce repressive policies pricipalmente. To achieve the desired impact is attributed to genes characteristic of "control, programming and determination" would be expressed in the individual socially active, which would mean that certain features such as violence, crime and other social ills would be transmitted from parents to children . The DNA is actually innocent of these charges as sindo a central molecule in the complex field of existence, is also a very passive molecule that does nothing if other molecules do not interact with it. The DNA is in the cell waiting to be read as a recipe in a cookbook, to claim otherwise is a mistake and a very dangerous practice because, falls in the field of genetic manipulation and discrimination.


It is difficult to summarize a complex subject as fascinating. Many of the ideas and arguments put to the discussion forum, have a kinship sopechosamente similar to the neoconservative and neoliberal ideas of American thought. Poverty as a genetic explanation and lower intelectualmennte poor out of their condition! The rich, the owner and emprendeor of success would be genetically predetermined by law to succeed and that biological order is established in the genes, which could defendense as a matter to divine or sacred!

Poor poor things, condemned by divine law, by statute biological, genetic and by law the law of man!
 
Many explanations for phenomena have their basis in human DNA or the genes that is organized, which in combination with other genes are compressed into compact complex structures called chromosomes. The human being in his cell has 46 chromosomes, 23 contributed by the father and 23 provided by the mother at the time of fertilization. Alli is the information of the product of conception, rather in the interaction of genes of the father and mother during intrauterine gestation.

This preamble is to argue that over time the social phenomena and tried to explain human behavior to scientific knowledge throwing hand to support philosophical doctrines and find arguments to justify some policies implemented by groups or centers of power. With money, you could finance-oriented research results that favor the tenets of the groups power to enforce repressive policies pricipalmente. To achieve the desired impact is attributed to genes characteristic of "control, programming and determination" would be expressed in the individual socially active, which would mean that certain features such as violence, crime and other social ills would be transmitted from parents to children . The DNA is actually innocent of these charges as sindo a central molecule in the complex field of existence, is also a very passive molecule that does nothing if other molecules do not interact with it. The DNA is in the cell waiting to be read as a recipe in a cookbook, to claim otherwise is a mistake and a very dangerous practice because, falls in the field of genetic manipulation and discrimination.


It is difficult to summarize a complex subject as fascinating. Many of the ideas and arguments put to the discussion forum, have a kinship sopechosamente similar to the neoconservative and neoliberal ideas of American thought. Poverty as a genetic explanation and lower intelectualmennte poor out of their condition! The rich, the owner and emprendeor of success would be genetically predetermined by law to succeed and that biological order is established in the genes, which could defendense as a matter to divine or sacred!

Poor poor things, condemned by divine law, by statute biological, genetic and by law the law of man!

Intelligence is not only determined by genes, but also by the quality of gestation, the childhood diet and environment, and of course continuous education (parts of the brain that are not being used atrophy over time).

Then I don't think that neoconservative Christians believe in genetics and evolution.
 
These are two faces of the same coin. Corruption cannot exist without a mutual agreement between the corrupter and the corrupted. If someone has strong principles against corruption, he/she will not try to corrupt and will not accept proposals of corruption.



Most traits of characters are hereditary, therefore genetic. This is why different breeds of dogs have clearly different characters (some more aggressive, some more sociable, some more protective, some more playful, some better at herding, some better at helping people...). Even religiosity and sexual faithfulness are deeply rooted in our genes. I doubt that corruptibility isn't. However it is almost certain that the Y-chromosome has no effect on it. The genes is almost certainly autosomal, but could have been spread by people carrying one or several specific haplogroups. In fact, genes are always spread by people from one region to other regions. People from a specific region will carry haplogroups specific to that region. Consequently there can be a correlation between the spread of autosomal genes and one or a few Y-DNA haplogroups.

For example, Hemochromatosis and Huntington disease originated in the Scandinavian population. The Vikings spread them to the regions they conquered. Because the Vikings carried (among others) I1 lineages, it can be said that there is a link between the diffusion of I1 by the Vikings and these two diseases. It doesn't mean that an Irish or North French person who belongs to I1 will have these diseases of course. But the incidence of both diseases will probably correlate to the percentage of I1 in a region, because they "travel" in the local gene pool.

I am also convinced that other traits influencing the economy, such as diligence or laziness are genetic too. It seems that the populations descending ultimately from the ancient Chinese (Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese + some Thai) and from the ancient Germans are particularly hard-working and meticulous. The is strong genetic disposition might even have originated in Siberia or Central Asia.

As for laziness, it has been proven that a few genetic conditions that help prevent malaria, like Sickle-cell disease in Africa and Thalassemia in the Mediterranean region, do cause anaemia and therefore lethargy and a natural predisposition to "laziness". Now that I think about it, seeing the distribution map for Sickle cell disease, it might truly be that haplogroup E does correlate with laziness via the spread of Sickle cell anaemia. Have a look at the map, it is startling how it matches the distribution of haplogroup E in the Balkans, South Italy and Anatolia.

Sickle_cell_distribution.jpg


Thalassemia has a similar distribution but fills the gaps in North Africa, Iberia and southern France too.

art133b.gif


Hot weather isn't the reason of lower activity in Southeast Europe; malaria is (or rather was, but contributed in changing people's genes).

It is a common misconception that haplogroup E is low in Germany or in places so much north as Belarus. I have complied Y-DNA data from all the studies I could find for all European countries, and I can assert that West Germany has about 8% of haplogroup E, while Belarus approximates 9%. This isn't strange for West Germany since haplogroup E reaches 11% in Wallonia and 7% in the eastern part of Flanders (province of Limburg) in adjoining Belgium, and 10% in Alsace. Incidentally, the unemployment rate in Wallonia is awful (15% was the average for the last 10 years) and corruption is a major problem (Walloons are often dubbed Italians of the North, partly because of this).

As for Greece, it is a very carved and fragmented country with strongly varying haplogroup frequencies between regions. While northern Greece can exceed 30% of haplogroup E, Crete is under 10% and some islands have under 5% of E. Greeks may think of themselves as one ethnic group, but DNA rather suggests a confederacy of many ethnicities.


maciamo

thalassaimia and drepanocyttarosis and homocystein and many other are connected with different DNA genes and you know it.

HBO
MTHFR etc

not with E-V13,


i said in a previous post about chemicals and hormons that can be a link, a more sentimental degree or a more brain activity.
I believe also
2 man, 1 is very excited with orgasm the other is not
who is more possible to run to common women or turn to gay?

I have correct MTHFR DNA yet I have an unspecified Homocystein pathesis that reaches 30 at random times, (like 1000-2000 cholisterine)
I have no problem with protein C etc not even with vitamin B
is my Y-DNA or my Mt-DNA responsible??
yet I served as marine my military obligations and was 8 rank in Greek rowing races 8 person boat and 4 persons boat?
i had 2 times haimoptysis (spit blood) in my life and 1 time my spline was 26 cm and 1 time my pneumons were full of blood thromvosis,
I take cheap cumarins from 14 years old ,
is it my Y-Dna??

Yes thalassaimia and other anaimias could be a fracture of laziness but also not.

my second cousin who has thalassaimia takes 5mg of folic acid every day, (about 5 cent a day)
and I inform she works twice than her kids and her husband, why, she needs only 30 min of rest and fast sleep every 4-6 hours,
and then is fresh again, but by that she learn to sleep only 3-4-5 hours the day,
so with may not the streangth to work continuesly 10 hours, but she sleeps less than others.
she sleeps 4-5 times per day but the max is 1-2 hours.

I agree that DNA can be connected with many but not every DNA,
a small change in DNA can give different quantities of Hormons or enzyma etc that can affect 1 person work or brain or sentiments

BUT is it Y-DNA?

on the other hand

lets the today biggest athlets in every sport
TAKE A LOOK IN NBA BASKET BALL MAJORITY IS E Y-DNA
TAKE A LOOK AT FRANCE NATIONAL TEAM
TAKE A LOOK AT BRAZIL'S FOOTBALL TEAM
TAKE A LOOK AT ATHLETICS ALL RUNNERS ARE E DNA
even Kenteris could be E carrier

WHY WE CONNECT E Y-DNA WITH CORRUPTION
AND NOT WITH GREAT ATHLETIC PERMOMANCES????????????????? why?

Jordan_Lipofsky.jpg


I don't know if he is E YDNA
I don't know if he is corrupted
But I know he was unique.


far south east asia, phillipines indonesia etc
I wonder who is more corrupted,
the young under age whore? her father?
or the oldman rich western or Arab sultan, pedofilos

you are correct and clear,
anaimias and many other cases can be a fracture of laziness or what ever.

But I ask you 1 question,
fat people are lazy? fat people are healthy?
why we don't connect western culture with pachysarky, fatness
why we don't connret r1b r1a etc with fatness?
the biggest ratio of fat people are in USA and in EU,
in fact child fatness is almost a social problem.
DIABETES is killing harvesting EU and USA yet we allow stupid food with killed vitamins and we eat and produce and advertise food full of preservatives wich kill langerhans island cells,
how much EU spends in insuline due to a half destroyed organ cause of fat and wrong food?

IN EUROPE WE HAVE LAZINESS AND DISABLED PEOPLE DUE TO DIABETES
WHICH REACH >30% of population.
The increase in incidence of diabetes in developing countries follows the trend of urbanization and lifestyle changes, perhaps most importantly a "Western-style" diet. This has suggested an environmental (i.e., dietary) effect, but there is little understanding of the mechanism(s) at present, though there is much speculation, some of it most compellingly presented.[2]



I believe is not the Y-DNA but another dna gene and enviroment.

PS
I don't know about the western Europe wars,
but I knw about yenicars and eastern wars, and believe there not a few,

in ww1 the most killing batle was in balkans battle of lachana
48 000 dead in 6 hours,
in one 1 day 1900 AD soldiers fight like Napoleon's wars,
face to face with the spears in their guns,
maybe belgium change 9 rulers but constantinupolis defend from how many???
Thessaloniki change 5 times hands in 150 years
ok maybe wars is not the base of corruption, i can half accept your approach, need total estimation to full accept it.
but at least at greece we have 4 big wars and 1 civil and 1 dictatorship,
ww2 ended at 1949 in greece, 5 years after Europe.
rest of balkans had also the same wars but instead of a dictatorship they had communist era.
west europe did not pass the communistic era.

corruption has to do with punishment,
in greece due to humanization and me modern europe, we pass the crimes of corruption,
in greece we kill the innocent protester and we allow the corupted to earn,
but I don't believe it has to do with the 25% E YDNA,
in fact I wonder what characteristic that gives? with which hormon or enzyma etc is connected?

PS 2
In your theory about Y-DNA and IE you gave the exact word for Greece melting pot,
yet my fathers from ancient times connect it in Thessaly via Olympic games,
Greek is a family of smaller tribes,
why we accept Slavic the I2a of south balkans and the R1a of north?
we accept Slavic Family of nations not a nation but a family
same is Greece is a family of tribes we accept Greek nation but not family of nations.


PS 3
I ask the author to say clear what he means corruption?
corruption has many faces in a social organiazed municipal,
with which face of corruption he connects it?

1 pedophilia
2 adultery
3 homosexuality
4 overpass law
5 criminality
6 unfair judge
7 robberies
8 create law that support some
9 different laws for different class
10 get illegal things with money
11 selling drugs
12 different work of public care?
13 love for money?

what he means corruption and with what he connects it?

ps4

about weather I agree that is not a reason,
but how about programing of day,
my grand parent at summer wake up at 4-5 o clock, went to work before sun raise and 12 middle of day he fall to sleep, and worked after 3-4 o cloack at evening
today with same laws in North and South,
we have to work at 13-14 o clock wich many times reach above 40 C
and in north in winter we spend electricity
my grand parents in summer sleep midday and work early morning and evening,
today we use airconditions etc to work at 40 C
how much productivity can have someone at 40C
and this to have almost same market laws in EU or global laws.

in North they forbid concrete when temperature when temperature is low,
in south concrete is most forbiden in summer cause of high temperatures,
once I was so unlucky that I had to wait 4 days for put concrete in a structure.
 
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WHY WE CONNECT E Y-DNA WITH CORRUPTION
AND NOT WITH GREAT ATHLETIC PERMOMANCES????????????????? why?

Jordan_Lipofsky.jpg


Sometimes I wonder why Indians are so bad at sports. Is it cultural or due to Haplogroup H and L ?
 
I am also convinced that other traits influencing the economy, such as diligence or laziness are genetic too. It seems that the populations descending ultimately from the ancient Chinese (Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese + some Thai) and from the ancient Germans are particularly hard-working and meticulous. The is strong genetic disposition might even have originated in Siberia or Central Asia.

As for laziness, it has been proven that a few genetic conditions that help prevent malaria, like Sickle-cell disease in Africa and Thalassemia in the Mediterranean region, do cause anaemia and therefore lethargy and a natural predisposition to "laziness". Now that I think about it, seeing the distribution map for Sickle cell disease, it might truly be that haplogroup E does correlate with laziness via the spread of Sickle cell anaemia. Have a look at the map, it is startling how it matches the distribution of haplogroup E in the Balkans, South Italy and Anatolia.

Sickle-cell disease and Thalassemia have the effect of lower oxygen transport by erythrocytes, which will be followed by reduced physical activity, or as you would say, 'laziness' (which is a rather jugding term, as it implies 'unwillingness'). I know it is not what you meant, but by the choice of your words, other readers will get the impression that laziness is an evoutionary advantage for prevention of malaria.
But either way we will have to prove that both sickle-cell disease as well as thalassemia with non-treatment are so highly distributed among certain populations that THESE diseases actually are the reason of lower performance and productivity of their countries. I am not that familiar with distribution of diseases within Europe, but I'm sure if I did some research I will also find some with a higher prevalence in Northern Europe, which in that case should imply a lower productivity there.

If I remember it well, didn't the Roman writer and politician Tacitus describe the Germans as lazy, with tendency towards gambling and alcoholism? At those times Northern Europe wasn't half as successful as the Mediterranean countries, despite of a much higher malaria distribution in southern places at that time! How do you explain that?

I'm not surprised of your theory that Germans and East Asians share a certain gene that effects hard work and diligence, as you are the one who believes that Northern Europeans also inherited individualism from Neanderthals. Maybe you would also say that diligence is attached to the same gene?

I know you are a person of facts and statistics, so why don't you stick to them? Of course you can give your reasons, opinions and own conclusions here (which, sorry, very often are associated with stereotypes), but PLEASE, don't present them as facts!
 
First of all, I did not want to depict the Byzantine and Ottoman Empire as interchangeable. The problem of forums is that people easily lose track of how and why arguments were put forward. Let's rewind a bit.

A) In the OP, Jacker22 proposed the hypothesis that the percentage of haplogroup E in a population correlated with corruption, unemployment and lower GDP per capita.

B) How yes no refuted this correlation, stating that : "best off are countries that did not have wars in recent history, worst are countries that were destroyed economically due to the wars in recent history."

C) To which I replied that the Balkans actually suffered less wars in the last 1500 years than Western Europe (I gave the example of France being at war pretty much constantly with its neighbours, and internecine wars within Germany and within Italy). While wars of conquest were being waged in most of Europe, borders redrawn constantly from the Middle Ages until WWII, most of the Balkans (except Romania) were a region of relative stability in comparison because they only changed ruler and system once in roughly 1000 years (or twice in 1500 years if we count the Bulgarian Empire). During the same period the region that is now Belgium changed hands 9 times before becoming an independent country in 1830, and that is without counting the numerous wars fought by other countries on its territory (including Louis XIV and Louis XV against the Spaniards, English and Dutch, and Napoleon against all Europe, and the Germans invading neutral Belgium to invade France in WWI and WWII). The Balkans (Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro and Bosnia) only changed hands three times between the Roman conquest 2000 years ago and the break-up of the Ottoman Empire. They were Roman/Byzantine, then Bulgarian Turk, then Ottoman Turk. Very few wars were fought in the Balkans between the 11th and the late 19th century, apart from the Ottoman conquest itself. The main battles fought with neighbouring superpowers took place in WWI and WWII, except the war between Ottomans and Austro-Hungarians, which was staged mainly in Romania, Hungary and Austria (so around the Carpathians rather than the Balkans).

My point was therefore that poverty in the Balkans couldn't be explained by a particular profusion of wars in its history compared to Western Europe. My argument had nothing to do with the cultural or political differences between Byzantines and Ottomans. That was one transition, one empire being taken over in its entirety by another, even if they were very different people with a different languages and religions. Local languages survived throughout the Ottoman Empire anyway (there was no real will to obliterate them and force people to speak Turkish), and religion was free too (no Inquisition, just a tax on people who chose no to convert to Islam, but many people in the Balkans did convert). So even that wasn't a terrible problem.

Ottoman empire offered a kind of stability that one can have as kidnaped and tortured in a basement... while you can call situation like that stable, you can't claim it was great environment for development and economic growth.....

my intention with war argument was about long period of peace in own country...clearly, Ottoman empire was not such environment for Balkan people...


in fact, being a country subjugated by Ottomans practically meant constant state of war for ordinary people...

there were countless small rebelions and many people lived in woods as guerrila fighers - "hajduci" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajduk and had constant clashes with Turks

there were areas e.g. Montenegro that were never subjugated by Turks... there was constant battle on its borders...in those times people of Montenegro considered themselves elite Serbs because they refused to be subjugated despite everything... there is one thing about Serbs - enduring and never surrendering...


if you want to oversimplify history and look at it on greater scale, than border between Austo-Hungary's military border and Ottoman empire was in constant war and often changing....

on both sides in those constant wars, core of warriors were Balkan people - islamised on one side (those kidnapped by turkish army from parents as small kids, brought to Turkey, and brain-washed into being elite Turk soldiers, and ancestors of muslim people of Balkan who changed religion to enjoy more comfortable life) and christians on other side ...


military border of Austro-Hungary was populated mostly with Serbs, but also with Croats (those previous inhaabitants of the area that didnot runaway, and some dominantly Croat settled areas e.g. west part of Lika - places such as Klis and Senj famous for guerila fighers "uskoci" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uskoci) and and to much much less extent with Romanians and Hungarians (mostly in Transylvania) and Germans..

800px-Militargrenze%2C_Wojwodowena_und_Banat.jpg


all those people were settled there to be soldiers, and lived in constant state of war... Croatia Serbs, west Bosnia Serbs and part of Vojvodina Serbs origin from military frontier people.......they were settled there to be warriors and defenders of Austro-Hungary and Europe... military frontier existed as separate entity in Austro-Hungary, and it only was in ear 1881 when danger of Turkey was gone, when the military frontier was included mostly in entity named Croatia-Slavonia and part of it directly in the kingdom of Hungary...

in fact, without that military frontier perhaps your ancestors would end-up impaled as well... take a look again at the picture below as it could have been your ancestor enjoying stability of Ottoman empire...

220px-Empalement.jpg


in fact, you should learn to respect sacrifices of Balkan people that were playing a role of wall against Turks and in that way have enabled real stability in the rest of the Europe and thus created preconditions for cultural development and economic prosperity to your ancestors... so please stop trying to put Balkan people in the role of lower worth, because I do not think most of western Europe (especially Belgians and French) would ever be able to sustain what Balkan people did...
 
Poverty in the balkans isn't very hard to figure out. This might seem like more turk bashing but it isn't my main goal.

Ottoman empire was a "gunpowder" empire, meaning the only reason is lasted as long as it did and regions didn't break away sooner is because the centralized turk army had gunpowder and the different ethnic group did not. This let the turks keep the different peoples repressed for so long, these peoples being christians AND muslims (look at what turkey is still doing to the kurds). As soon as the different ethnic groups got to have their own guns, like arvinites and soon after greeks, Greece became a seperate country. Russia fought for Bulgaria who did not have guns and won, it became a seperate country and got hold of gunpowder weapons as well, same for serbia. Remember when the arabs rebeled against the turks during WW1, this was only because the british supplied them with guns for their resistance, they were still using camels and swords!

Ottoman empire was very "backwards" economically as well as intellectually. It was the "sick man of europe" for the longest time and did not develop industries like in western and eastern europe, so the people inherited land that was not developed. So each different balkan country had to start from scratch essentially.

To a more modern period. Before WW2, all balkan countries were practically at the same economic level. Greece, which is the "richest" at the moment (in terms of GDP per capita) was at the same level as the poorest right now, albania. The difference is the countries who turned to communism had to "restart" again in the late 1980's when it all fell apart. As a poster pointed out, Yugoslavia was a very well developed country prior to disintigration. And their recovery fromt eh transition to capitalism has been very slow while the rest of europe in the last 20 years grew significantly. Throw in the yugoslav wars in the 90's and its aftermath, the illigal partition of kosovo from serbia, and FYROM and albanian nationalistic geographical asperations, the balkans in the last 25 years has been a mess, and I think will continue to be a mess unless things change.

Now I don't want to make it seem like its all historical, there may as well be some cultural aspects of corruption aswell. If people dismiss the idea that better paying jobs or succes is based off anything else besides merit there is trouble. To say that western europe is not corrupt is silly, the corruption is just "white collar" corruption that is harder to discover and even more hard to bring to light.
 
The use and fate of science and progress stands today, with few exceptions, outside the circuits of ethics. Neoliberalism is a system that could not exist without appropriating everything that justice should be the heritage of humanity, also permanently appropriates science to its spurious, aberrant and disgusting purposes. Science is today without this can or should blame the scientists, a good privatized the service of a small ruling elite based on their display of power and criminal hoarding of wealth. Therefore, the enormous benefits that could and should provide genetic research on prevention and eradication of diseases and give ourselves a better quality of life may be fictitious, false and counterproductive for all human beings.
 
It is a common misconception that haplogroup E is low in Germany or in places so much north as Belarus. I have complied Y-DNA data from all the studies I could find for all European countries, and I can assert that West Germany has about 8% of haplogroup E, while Belarus approximates 9%. This isn't strange for West Germany since haplogroup E reaches 11% in Wallonia and 7% in the eastern part of Flanders (province of Limburg) in adjoining Belgium, and 10% in Alsace. Incidentally, the unemployment rate in Wallonia is awful (15% was the average for the last 10 years) and corruption is a major problem (Walloons are often dubbed Italians of the North, partly because of this).

As for Greece, it is a very carved and fragmented country with strongly varying haplogroup frequencies between regions. While northern Greece can exceed 30% of haplogroup E, Crete is under 10% and some islands have under 5% of E. Greeks may think of themselves as one ethnic group, but DNA rather suggests a confederacy of many ethnicities.
The ''scientist'' Maciamo now claims that DNA equals ethnicity (I wonder do you even know what ethnicity means? Because if you did I'm sure you wouldn't have used THAT word... Ethnicity comes from the Greek word 'ethnicoteta' which derives from 'ethnos' which derives from 'ethos'...which could be translated in English as coustom habbit. It is clear enough I think that 'ethnicity' is related with common culture and coustoms not DNA, so stop spreading your anti-Greek propaganda (especially using Greek words that you don't even understand dear Belgian ''scientist''... After all most modren nations don't belong to a particullar haplogroup and the same haplogroups are present in quite distinct populations which makes your statement invalid even more than your linguistic ignorance
 
The Ottoman system of taking christian boys in infancy and training them as janiissary ( elite troops) was the success of the Ottoman fighting machine..........the true Ottomans crumpled after the janissary system evaporated in the 18th century. They hated the slavs the most followed by the Roman catholics but seemed to tolerate the orthodox people ( greek) better
 
The ''scientist'' Maciamo now claims that DNA equals ethnicity (I wonder do you even know what ethnicity means? Because if you did I'm sure you wouldn't have used THAT word... Ethnicity comes from the Greek word 'ethnicoteta' which derives from 'ethnos' which derives from 'ethos'...which could be translated in English as coustom habbit. It is clear enough I think that 'ethnicity' is related with common culture and coustoms not DNA, so stop spreading your anti-Greek propaganda (especially using Greek words that you don't even understand dear Belgian ''scientist''... After all most modren nations don't belong to a particullar haplogroup and the same haplogroups are present in quite distinct populations which makes your statement invalid even more than your linguistic ignorance

Perhaps the Greek etymology of ethnicity related to culture and customs (actually it comes from ethnikos, itself derived from ethnos "band of people living together, nation, people"), but in English (or French, Italian and Spanish for that matter), ethnicity refers first and foremost to common ancestry (therefore DNA).

I have no idea what you call anti-Greek propaganda. I have nothing against Greek people, and never said and wrote anything negative about Greece or Greeks. You are obviously delusional. If that is anti-Greek to say that haplogroup frequencies differ widely between parts of Greece then I can't help you. Go see a shrink.
 
Poverty in the balkans isn't very hard to figure out. This might seem like more turk bashing but it isn't my main goal.

Ottoman empire was a "gunpowder" empire, meaning the only reason is lasted as long as it did and regions didn't break away sooner is because the centralized turk army had gunpowder and the different ethnic group did not. This let the turks keep the different peoples repressed for so long, these peoples being christians AND muslims (look at what turkey is still doing to the kurds). As soon as the different ethnic groups got to have their own guns, like arvinites and soon after greeks, Greece became a seperate country. Russia fought for Bulgaria who did not have guns and won, it became a seperate country and got hold of gunpowder weapons as well, same for serbia. Remember when the arabs rebeled against the turks during WW1, this was only because the british supplied them with guns for their resistance, they were still using camels and swords!

Ottoman empire was very "backwards" economically as well as intellectually. It was the "sick man of europe" for the longest time and did not develop industries like in western and eastern europe, so the people inherited land that was not developed. So each different balkan country had to start from scratch essentially.

To a more modern period. Before WW2, all balkan countries were practically at the same economic level. Greece, which is the "richest" at the moment (in terms of GDP per capita) was at the same level as the poorest right now, albania. The difference is the countries who turned to communism had to "restart" again in the late 1980's when it all fell apart. As a poster pointed out, Yugoslavia was a very well developed country prior to disintigration. And their recovery fromt eh transition to capitalism has been very slow while the rest of europe in the last 20 years grew significantly. Throw in the yugoslav wars in the 90's and its aftermath, the illigal partition of kosovo from serbia, and FYROM and albanian nationalistic geographical asperations, the balkans in the last 25 years has been a mess, and I think will continue to be a mess unless things change.

Now I don't want to make it seem like its all historical, there may as well be some cultural aspects of corruption aswell. If people dismiss the idea that better paying jobs or succes is based off anything else besides merit there is trouble. To say that western europe is not corrupt is silly, the corruption is just "white collar" corruption that is harder to discover and even more hard to bring to light.

I totally agree with this. Thanks for your input.
 

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