I2a origins in Kurdistan

[sparkey]

You can't say that I is an European haplogroup, because Indo-European (Iranic) West Asian folks have that marker too.

Haplogroup I overlaps Europe and West Asia and is scattered all over these places!

I suppose you're right about the distribution, although it is very thin and not very diverse outside of Europe, except maybe with the Kurds and some others. Arabs, for example, have almost no Haplogroup I in their populations. It also seems that it was confined to Europe in the Neolithic, with no evidence to the contrary, so it really would have been "European" then. Haplogroup I has a poor correlation to the early Indo-European migrations IMHO and probably only got caught up in them late in the game. It has a better correlation with something like Cro-Magnon and/or Gravettian cultures that would have produced some of the earliest Europeans. It is probably the oldest extant Y-line in Europe unless something rare like Haplogroup F turns out to be older.

[Goga]

Haplogroup I may not be exclusively European, however, it has been home to Europe since at least the Neolithic (Treilles).

Yes, haplogroup I is maybe the oldest Homo sapien haplogroup in Europe... Or maybe not. Maybe the first Homo sapiesn that migrated into Europe were also not exclusively I folks, but also E and T...

[Shetop]

Good question... I've been going mostly by what I've heard others say, including Maciamo... he has the Kurds as I2a here. I've seen papers, such as Nasidze et al and Nebel et al, that show high levels of I among certain Kurdish populations, but don't perform additional SNP tests. FTDNA projects haven't shown significant numbers of Kurds among the I2a-Din folk, but that seems to be because hardly any Kurds are testing on their own. There could be more I2*-B ala Armenians and Georgians in there than we're suspecting.

I'm glad you looked into that because I agree with many things you've written in this forum. That thing with Kurds was exception.
I can just say I would bet a lot of money that I2a1b1a among Kurds could be neglected, or equally possible - there is no I2a1b1a there.

[sparkey]

I've got this from wiki:

I think that Caucasian Haplogroup I is going to tend to be I2*-B, like how Armenians have ~4% Haplogroup I and almost all of it has been I2*-B. I assume that Darginians are similar, but maybe with a founder effect (or mispredicted haplogroups? I don't know the studies).

We've talked a bit about the unusual I2*-B clade before on this forum... consensus was building that it must have spread with the influence of some riverfaring and seafaring people, who could have began migrating as far West as Germany around 2500 years ago.

[Goga]

I suppose you're right about the distribution, although it is very thin and not very diverse outside of Europe, except maybe with the Kurds and some others. Arabs, for example, have almost no Haplogroup I in their populations.

Kurds are Iranic and Arabs are Semitic. Kurds are NOT Semitic. If someone ever had his doubts, Kurdish DNA 'proofs' that Kurds ain't no Semites. Kurds have very different origin than Arabs.

It also seems that it was confined to Europe in the Neolithic, with no evidence to the contrary, so it really would have been "European" then. Haplogroup I has a poor correlation to the early Indo-European migrations IMHO and probably only got caught up in them late in the game. It has a better correlation with something like Cro-Magnon and/or Gravettian cultures that would have produced some of the earliest Europeans. It is probably the oldest extant Y-line in Europe unless something rare like Haplogroup F turns out to be older.

I believe the early Indo-Europeans had almost only a West Asian component in them. But that's very West Asian-centric.

Some people are guilty of being Eurocentric, but I'm a little bit West Asian-centric. But isn't this a part of Homo sapien nature, thinking that you are the centre of the universe...

[sparkey]

I'm glad you looked into that because I agree with many things you've written in this forum. That thing with Kurds was exception.
I can just say I would bet a lot of money that I2a1b1a among Kurds could be neglected, or equally possible - there is no I2a1b1a there.

You suspect that it is all I2*-B? Or mispredicted? I2*-B is nearly as young and probably comes from even farther West, so if it turns out to be just us incorrectly guessing it to be I2a-Din when it's actually I2*-B, then not much changes, except we drop some of our ideas about a Slavic or Illyrian input into the Kurds in favor of the same mysterious one as Armenians (possibly seafaring merchants from Crete or something?)

[Taranis]

Yes, haplogroup I is maybe the oldest Homo sapien haplogroup in Europe... Or maybe not. Maybe the first Homo sapiesn that migrated into Europe were also not exclusively I folks, but also E and T...

I don't think that Haplogroup E arrived in Europe that early. It (along with J2) was expected by a lot of people to show up in Neolithic samples, but has failed thus far to do so. I think that a strong case can be made that it wasn't there yet.

There's also a linguistic argument to be made. Haplogroup E1b1b appears to be linked with the speakers of the Afro-Asiatic languages. As far as we know, there were no Afro-Asiatic languages in Europe before the Phoenicians showed up in Iberia at the start of the 1st millennium BC. Now, if Basque (as well as the poorly-attested Iberian language) give us any idea here, it's more likely that the languages of Neolithic Europe were all ergative-agglutinative languages akin to those in ancient Anatolia and the Caucasus. Also, bear in mind that G2a showed up in Treilles.

[Shetop]

You suspect that it is all I2*-B? Or mispredicted? I2*-B is nearly as young and probably comes from even farther West, so if it turns out to be just us incorrectly guessing it to be I2a-Din when it's actually I2*-B, then not much changes, except we drop some of our ideas about a Slavic or Illyrian input into the Kurds in favor of the same mysterious one as Armenians (possibly seafaring merchants from Crete or something?)

I think misprediction is possible.
If not, than some form of I2*, most likely I2*-B, and probably frequency is lower than the one in eupedia data.
Which people should be connected to this SNP, I really don't have an idea.

[sparkey]

I think misprediction is possible.

I wouldn't discount it, I think most of the studies of Kurds have been STR-predictions. Data is probably deficient still for Kurds as a whole. The FTDNA Kurdish DNA Project is currently useless... it has 1 out of 8 members as Haplogroup I, and they're I1, which must be a very recent introduction, if they are Kurdish at all.

If not, than some form of I2*, most likely I2*-B, and probably frequency is lower than the one in eupedia data.
Which people should be connected to this SNP, I really don't have an idea.

It's difficult to figure out I2*-B (still an STR cluster rather than an SNP by the way... I2*-B keeps getting negative on all SNPs that have been tested so far) because it has a gigantic geographic spread for something so young, from Scotland to Iran, and turns up as the dominant Haplogroup I clade in odd places like Crete. At least, we know that its more geographically limited and rarer brother clusters, I2*-A (mine!) and I2*-C, have their centers of diversity in or around Germany.

[Goga]

According to the Croatian scientists:



http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm

[Goga]

and

[img]http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1707/croatia2.jpg[/img]


Croatia 2.jpg

[Taranis]

and

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1707/croatia2.jpg


Croatia 2.jpg

This makes no sense. Especially if you consider the distinction between Haplogroup I1 and I2. And also the various I2 subclades.

[Goga]

This makes no sense. Especially if you consider the distinction between Haplogroup I1 and I2. And also the various I2 subclades.

Why not? Maybe haplogroup I* from West Asia that stayed in the Balkans became I2 and haplogroup I* that migrated into North Europe became I1.

Once again this is according to the Croatian scientists, and not some bloggers and other amateurs...

http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm

[sparkey]

and

[img]http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8203/croatia2w.jpg[/img]


Croatia 2.jpg

They imagine that the other haplogroups came into Croatia and forced out native Haplogroup I? I'm not sure that plays out... the age of Haplogroup I in Croatia (for sure I2a-Din this time, right?) is too young to support it as having been there for so long. Probably, there were other clades there early on, maybe something related to I2b-ADR or I2a1a or even proto-I2a-Din, which got totally displaced and/or replaced by normal genetic drift. Then, I suspect that I2a-Din came in with R1a from the North. And even if I'm wrong about that, and I2a-Din is truly indigenous to Croatia and hasn't moved since the Stone Age, then what that would mean is that it got bottlenecked to basically a single family there at one point, making so it would still have to expand drastically in the region.

[Goga]

They imagine that the other haplogroups came into Croatia and forced out native Haplogroup I?

No, not necesarry. Haplogorup I came to Croatia 25,000 years ago. Maybe some I* folks migrated from Croatia into North Europe before other haplogroups arrived.

[Taranis]

Why not? Maybe haplogroup I* from West Asia that stayed in the Balkans became I2 and haplogroup I* that migrated into North Europe became I1.

Once again this is according to the Croatian scientists, and not some bloggers and other amateurs...

http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm

They appear ridiculously Croatian-biased, however.

[sparkey]

No, not necesarry. Haplogorup I came to Croatia 25,000 years ago. Maybe some I* folks migrated from Croatia into North Europe before other haplogroups arrived.

OK, so the temporal aspect just isn't represented. Because I think your interpretation there is very possible. If true, that would make modern Haplogroup I in Croatia a back-migration... although, again, we know very little about where I* could have been.

[Shetop]

No, not necesarry. Haplogorup I came to Croatia 25,000 years ago. Maybe some I* folks migrated from Croatia into North Europe before other haplogroups arrived.

I think this could be better source for understanding I: The Story of I

Though nobody has written perfect story yet.

[sparkey]

I think this could be better source for understanding I: The Story of I

Though nobody has written perfect story yet.

Yes, I like Jean Manco's writings. All that taken together should also help understand how R1b missed "I2a2" (now I2a1b).

[LeBrok]

Some people are guilty of being Eurocentric, but I'm a little bit West Asian-centric. But isn't this a part of Homo sapien nature, thinking that you are the centre of the universe...

Lol, you are a great guy. You have points in my book. :)
I enjoy discussion guys, not much time to post though. Good thread!
Regards

[Alan]

Simple to answer. I2a2 as no strong correlation with Groups having R1b*. Only the Kurds but this seems to be not a ancient phenomena but rather due recent mixings of Groups which belong to the ancestors of Kurds.

[Alan]

BTW if R1b originated in the Caucasus and Anatolia and didn't mix with the Danubian populations, western european should have had more western Asian component in their genetic admixture

This is also simple. The Reason why Western Europe has less of the "West Asian" component is because the "West Europe" component it self is already like a branch of the "West Asian". The closest component to "West Asian" is indeed the "West European"!

[LeBrok]

Great story of I. Thanks Shetop for the find.

[Alan]

I think misprediction is possible.
If not, than some form of I2*, most likely I2*-B, and probably frequency is lower than the one in eupedia data.
Which people should be connected to this SNP, I really don't have an idea.

I agree that 25% is probably a bit too high and assume something around 20%. But I dont believe that all of it is misprediction because otherwise why only among Kurds? And this in Nebel and Nasidzes studies?

And even IF than this "mispredicted" Haplogroups have to be at least very similar to I which is almost only found among Kurds. otherwise it wouldn´t only be mispredicted among them.

However I doubt that it is mispredicted. I only think the frequency is a bit to high settled. I assume rather something around 20%

[nordicfoyer]

I've got this from wiki:

Nice point Goga, I've also wondered about that 34% in Tehran for some time now. I thought I was the only one.