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Thread: I2a origins in Kurdistan

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Netherlands



    I2a origins in Kurdistan



    I believe that haplogroup I2a existed from the Balkans to Kurdistan and that because of the Indo-European migration waves from Kurdistan into Europe, people in the Balkans became more I2a people. Kurdish haplogroup I2a is a West Asian haplogroup and native to Kurdistan.
    Last edited by Goga; 10-07-11 at 00:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I believe that haplogroup I2a existed from the Balkans to Kurdistan and that because of the Indo-European migration waves from Kurdistan into Europe, people in the Balkans became more I2a people. Kurdish haplogroup I2a is a West Asian haplogroup and native to Kurdistan.
    I doubt it, everything I've read has had Kurdish I2a as being I2a-Din, the same as Balkans-type, which has a very young TMRCA of something like 3000-2500 years ago. Have anything that suggests that Kurdish I2a might be of an older type?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I doubt it, everything I've read has had Kurdish I2a as being I2a-Din, the same as Balkans-type, which has a very young TMRCA of something like 3000-2500 years ago. Have anything that suggests that Kurdish I2a might be of an older type?
    Maybe at the same time when the Western Asian Aryan folks like the Mitanni (Hurrians), Medes were heading to Northern India, some of their Aryan relatives (maybe Hittites or Cimmerians ?) migrated at the same time into Europe?

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    I2a1b1a-Dinaric subclade evolved directly from the L178 and the ancestor of that subclade is the archaic M170.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I2a1b1a-Dinaric subclade evolved directly from the L178 and the ancestor of that subclade is the archaic M170.
    we have a known historical migration of Celtic or Baltic,

    The Vrygians who moved from Dinaric alps Dardania modern Albania Fyrom and Makedonia to minor Asia and become Phrygian
    in fact I believe the ones maciamo names Dorians in his map is the Vrygians the Celtic Briganti
    or a baltic tribe,
    the came before troy times and the moved 100 years after Temenids return

    the Makedonians name the Vrygians Skudra after the Persian Skudet means Scythians in Persian,
    (sorry I still search for ID of Vrygians Baltic Germanic or Celtic)
    Phrygian Capitol was Gordion in Hebrew Kurds are name like that about,
    we know that Gordium was burn 2 times and 1 was Carduch

    that I2a could be from phrygian that moved there and as Skudra join Persian empire

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Netherlands



    With all due respect but where do you think the archaic haplogrup I (m170) is from? Exactly, m170 came to Europe through the Asian Minor/Anatolia. By itself the archaic m170 is a Western Asian subclade that evolved from the more archaic haplogroup IJ and migrated into Europe. In Europe m170 subclade evolved into I1.. subclades and some I2.. subclades. m170 that continued to exist in Kurdistan (and maybe in the Balkans) evolved mostly into I2a.. subclade.

    Archaic haplogroup m170 is an Asian marker advanced from Haplogroup IJ in West Asia! Kurdish I2a is native to Kurdistan, because there's no other subclade of m170 in Kurdistan so it MUST be native!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    With all due respect but where do you think the archaic haplogrup I (m170) is from? Exactly, m170 came to Europe through the Asian Minor/Anatolia. By itself the archaic m170 is a Western Asian subclade that evolved from the more archaic haplogroup IJ and migrated into Europe. In Europe m170 subclade evolved into I1.. subclades and some I2.. subclades. m170 that continued to exist in Kurdistan (and maybe in the Balkans) evolved mostly into I2a.. subclade.

    Archaic haplogroup m170 is an Asian marker advanced from Haplogroup IJ in West Asia! Kurdish I2a is native to Kurdistan, because there's no other subclade of m170 in Kurdistan so it MUST be native!
    Hold on... we've got the following Haplogroup I clades in Europe:
    -I1
    -I2a-Disles
    -I2a-Din
    -I2a-Isles
    -I2a*-F
    -I2a*-Alps
    -I2a-Western
    -I2a-M26
    -I2-L38
    -I2-M223
    -I2*-A/B/C
    -I2-L416-ADR

    And we've got the following in Asia:
    -I2*-B
    -I2a-Din

    ...with only I2a-Din significant among Kurdish populations, and you're suggesting that it's native to Kurdistan? It seems completely obvious with the diversity of I2 in Europe that it originated there, and just a bit of it happened to expand into Asia with the Kurds later on. Don't you agree that the points of greatest diversity are the best candidates for points of origin?

    Ken Nordtvedt provides a very good schematic map of the predicted spread of Haplogroup I, and it doesn't involve a particular clade originating in Kurdistan. Go here and look for "Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I believe that haplogroup I2a existed from the Balkans to Kurdistan and that because of the Indo-European migration waves from Kurdistan into Europe, people in the Balkans became more I2a people. Kurdish haplogroup I2a is a West Asian haplogroup and native to Kurdistan.
    Kurds have a lot of R1a, R1b and I2a2 and speak an Indo-European language (Iranian branch). In all likelihood both R1a1a and I2a2 are signs of Indo-European ancestry that brought the language to that region in the first place. R1b was probably already in the region well before that. The R1a1a-I2a2 combination is typical of southern Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova, a region part of ancient Scythia. The Scythians were pastoral nomadic people and Iranian speakers. The word "Kurd" was an umbrella term to refer to all the pastoral nomadic people of the Iranian origin. So it is easy to infer that Kurdish people originally came from western Scythia, i.e. Eastern Europe. I2a2 just isn't old enough for it to be native to Kurdistan and spreading from there to the Balkans and the Pontic steppes in the Neolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Hold on... we've got the following Haplogroup I clades in Europe:
    -I1
    -I2a-Disles
    -I2a-Din
    -I2a-Isles
    -I2a*-F
    -I2a*-Alps
    -I2a-Western
    -I2a-M26
    -I2-L38
    -I2-M223
    -I2*-A/B/C
    -I2-L416-ADR

    And we've got the following in Asia:
    -I2*-B
    -I2a-Din

    ...with only I2a-Din significant among Kurdish populations, and you're suggesting that it's native to Kurdistan? It seems completely obvious with the diversity of I2 in Europe that it originated there, and just a bit of it happened to expand into Asia with the Kurds later on. Don't you agree that the points of greatest diversity are the best candidates for points of origin?

    Ken Nordtvedt provides a very good schematic map of the predicted spread of Haplogroup I, and it doesn't involve a particular clade originating in Kurdistan. Go here and look for "Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf."
    Exactly! You can see clearly that the archaic haplgroroup I (m170) migrated into Europe from the Asia Minor.




    spreadofhaplgroupi.jpg

    When m170 migrated into Europe it evolved further. I'm not denying it. Where is the ancient m170 and it subclades that continued to exist in Asia? Genocide? Kurdish I2a subclade evolved directly from the L178 and the direct ancestor of L178 subclade is the archaic M170. Kurdish I2a didn't mix with other populations in Asia because Kurds have been living isolated in the mountains for millennia!
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Kurds have a lot of R1a, R1b and I2a2 and speak an Indo-European language (Iranian branch). In all likelihood both R1a1a and I2a2 are signs of Indo-European ancestry that brought the language to that region in the first place. R1b was probably already in the region well before that. The R1a1a-I2a2 combination is typical of southern Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova, a region part of ancient Scythia. The Scythians were pastoral nomadic people and Iranian speakers. The word "Kurd" was an umbrella term to refer to all the pastoral nomadic people of the Iranian origin. So it is easy to infer that Kurdish people originally came from western Scythia, i.e. Eastern Europe. I2a2 just isn't old enough for it to be native to Kurdistan and spreading from there to the Balkans and the Pontic steppes in the Neolithic.
    Maybe it was a reverse migration, from the South Caucasus into the North? There is more than 10% of haplgroup j2 and only 12% of i2a in Ukraine! Maybe Kurdish ancestors brought I2a to Ukraine, Kurds have a much higher I2a percentage that the Ukrainians (according to your data)!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Kurdish I2a subclade evolved directly from the L178 and the direct ancestor of L178 subclade is the archaic M170.
    OK, so L147 evolved from L178, which evolved from M170... what's your point? L178+ M170- is found in Europe only, as is M170+ L178- (except for I2*-B which also went from Europe to Asia)... therefore, the only reasonable assumption is that I2a-Din originated in Europe, and that if there ever was native Haplogroup I in Asia, it went extinct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    OK, so L147 evolved from L178, which evolved from M170... what's your point?
    There're not so much steps in evolution between the archaic haplgroup M170 and the modern I2a of the Kurds. So I believe that the modern I2a is located not so far (in distance) from where the archaic haplogroup M170 lived. And the archaic haplogroup M170 came from Asia Minor. This is a fact.

    L178+ M170- is found in Europe only, as is M170+ L178- (except for I2*-B which also went from Europe to Asia)... therefore, the only reasonable assumption is that I2a-Din originated in Europe, and that if there ever was native Haplogroup I in Asia, it went extinct.
    You're making one big error, subclade L178 also has been found in Kurdistan and not only in Europe! So it is not only an European marker.

    Personally I don't believe in the genocide of a haplogroup…

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    There're not so much steps in evolution between the archaic haplgroup M170 and the modern I2a of the Kurds. So I believe that the modern I2a is located not so far (in distance) from where the archaic haplogroup M170 lived. And the archaic haplogroup M170 came from Asia Minor. This is a fact.

    You're making one big error, subclade L178 also has been found in Kurdistan and not only in Europe! So it is not only an European marker.

    Personally I don't believe in the genocide of a haplogroup…
    No, you're misunderstanding... I wasn't saying that L178 wasn't found in Kurdistan. The I2a in Kurds is I2a-Din or I2a1b1a, which is L147+ (unique to it), L69+ (common with I2a-Disles or I2a1b1*, which is Europe-only), L178+ (also common with I2a-Isles or I2a1b2, which is Europe-only), P37.2+ (also common with I2a1a and I2a1*, which are Europe-only), L460+ (also common with I2a2, which is Europe-only), and L68+ (also common with I2* and I2b, which are mostly Europe-only except for a recent migration of I2*-B from Europe to Asia). That makes the I2a in Kurds at least six SNPs away from I*, all of which have their centers of diversity in Europe. So, I think it's a fair assumption that L147 (the sixth) originated in Europe.

    I don't think anybody is suggestion genocide of a haplogroup, either. Normal patterns of geneflow and natural bottlenecks will eliminate certain haplogroups from certain populations. Besides, I don't think we even know where I* originated, considering that it is still completely unobserved. It's entirely possible given current evidence that what came to Europe originally was not I*, but rather IJ. In fact, we might suspect that if we think that Cro-Magnons were the ones bringing Haplogroup I, considering that the estimated time that I and J branched from each other is pre-Cro Magnon, but the TMRCA of both I and J are more recent. Under that scenario, it seems likely that what came to Europe was IJ, and what stayed in Asia was IJ, both of which differentiated themselves, becoming I in Europe and J in Asia.

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    Ok, thanks. Your arguments make more sense than my arguments. But I'm still not 100% convinced and satisfied about this issue. Maybe that's because of my nature...

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    Btw, who are these I2a-Din folks in Europe???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Btw, who are these I2a-Din folks in Europe???
    There are a bunch in the "Dinaric" area, especially the Balkans. Bosnia-Herzegovina is something like 50% I2a, almost all of which I assume is I2a-Din.

    If you're still not convinced, try researching more about the Haplogroup I in Kurds. If I was trying to prove myself wrong here, I would be looking closely at the SNPs and STR variance that has actually been tested among Kurds, to make sure it is really I2a-Din... because if L147- pops up (and it isn't just I2*-B from Armenians or something) it could be worth investigating to see if at least some of the I2a in Kurds predates the L147 SNP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    There are a bunch in the "Dinaric" area, especially the Balkans. Bosnia-Herzegovina is something like 50% I2a, almost all of which I assume is I2a-Din.
    Is Ossetian I2a Dinaric too? Because Ossetians are Iranic folks too, but is has been thought that some Ossetians (Alan tribes) migrated into Europe and not vice versa...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Is Ossetian I2a Dinaric too? Because Ossetians are Iranic folks too, but is has been thought that some Ossetians (Alan tribes) migrated into Europe and not vice versa...
    Do you know of any studies of Ossetian Y-DNA? I don't. I doubt they have much Haplogroup I, they're probably more G than anything. If they have Haplogroup I, it could be either I2a-Din (coming the same way as the I2a-Din in Kurds) or I2*-B (coming the same way as I2*-B in Georgia). How yes no has argued that I2a-Din in Kurds could have taken a northern route, meaning that it could have gone right through Ossetia. I'm not sure, myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    If they have Haplogroup I, it could be either I2a-Din (coming the same way as the I2a-Din in Kurds) or I2*-B (coming the same way as I2*-B in Georgia).
    I have similar question - where from comes this information that Kurds have significant frequency of I2a1b1a (I2a2a-Dinaric until couple of days ago)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Do you know of any studies of Ossetian Y-DNA? I don't. I doubt they have much Haplogroup I, they're probably more G than anything. If they have Haplogroup I, it could be either I2a-Din (coming the same way as the I2a-Din in Kurds) or I2*-B (coming the same way as I2*-B in Georgia). How yes no has argued that I2a-Din in Kurds could have taken a northern route, meaning that it could have gone right through Ossetia. I'm not sure, myself.
    "Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians" : http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf



    Ossetians.jpg

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    Ossetians are more likely J2, G and I with some R* folks. All these haplogroups are subclades of F*. F* is an error marker, that's why there is 41% of F* in South Ossetians. But it's most likely G and I.
    Ossetians are Iranic and West Asian folks like Kurds. Ossetian tribes migrated into Europe and not vice versa. And not only Kurds have i2a but also Ossetians and some West Persians in Teheran, so all West Iranic peoples belong to some haplgorup I...

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Netherlands



    You can't say that I is an European haplogroup, because Indo-European (Iranic) West Asian folks have that marker too.

    Haplogroup I overlaps Europe and West Asia and is scattered all over these places!

  23. #23
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c PF3881+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    I have similar question - where from comes this information that Kurds have significant frequency of I2a1b1a (I2a2a-Dinaric until couple of days ago)?
    Good question... I've been going mostly by what I've heard others say, including Maciamo... he has the Kurds as I2a here. I've seen papers, such as Nasidze et al and Nebel et al, that show high levels of I among certain Kurdish populations, but don't perform additional SNP tests. FTDNA projects haven't shown significant numbers of Kurds among the I2a-Din folk, but that seems to be because hardly any Kurds are testing on their own. There could be more I2*-B ala Armenians and Georgians in there than we're suspecting.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    You can't say that I is an European haplogroup, because Indo-European (Iranic) West Asian folks have that marker too.

    Haplogroup I overlaps Europe and West Asia and is scattered all over these places!
    Haplogroup I may not be exclusively European, however, it has been home to Europe since at least the Neolithic (Treilles).

  25. #25
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Netherlands



    I've got this from wiki:

    "The greatest density of Haplogoup I is to be found in Bosnia and Herzegovina 65% : Bosnia 54%[1], Herzegovina 71%.[1]

    Other higher than average densities occur in the Caucasus: Darginians of Dagestan 58% and Abkhazians 33%[7]

    Iran: in Tehran 34%, though in Isfahan only 10%."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y...DNA_haplogroup

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