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Thread: Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

  1. #226
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia





    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    The Venician connection with Greeks mostly was a small community of merchants and land owners who bought Greek products, and hire Greeks to secure ports and do their wars,
    that is why I don't believe in big Devastation, except 2 major areas Corfu and Chania

    Now about Franks and Katalans it is about same, only they brought armies that soon moved back or dissapear,
    remember the case of Arvanites is cause a latin ruler hired 4 000 warriors and few 000 farmers with their families and gave them land in order to serve his army,
    on the other hand the quite big army and legacy of Boniface and some others just vanish leaving behind a castle and 2-3 villages
    so in my area where the castle is, we know and can estimate the % by the toponyms, family names, linguistic remnants etc,
    and while in local area (municipal) is about 70% in territory area is about 2-3% (2500-3500/120-130 000)

    Now considering that All these dwell near sea or infront, about 0,4-0,5 pop of Greece and not in inland mountain areas Yes I agree that 1% max 2% of Greek pop is from crusaders times
    while considering the aromani is about 4-6% of pop
    Maybe you can find something in here
    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LATI...#_Toc219779590

    or
    Irrespective of what the ultimate origin of R-U152 is, it provides us with a good
    diagnostic marker for population movements out of the French-Italian area. In Italy for
    example it is noted at 26.6% for the north and 10.5% in the south. It would be extremely
    interesting to see its occurrence in Balkan Vlachs, as this would confirm/disprove the
    Italian component in their origin. However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans,
    suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-
    century period of Venetian rule of the island. It also occurs in 4.1% of Greeks, where it
    might come from any period since the Roman annexation of the Hellenistic states to the
    Vlachs.
    from this link
    http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

    or
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08...ntral-and.html

    You could be correct because the Veneto area has only 40% R1b marker today ( maybe it was different in the past)
    What is your theory on this marker in crete?

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Maybe you can find something in here
    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LATI...#_Toc219779590

    or
    Irrespective of what the ultimate origin of R-U152 is, it provides us with a good
    diagnostic marker for population movements out of the French-Italian area. In Italy for
    example it is noted at 26.6% for the north and 10.5% in the south. It would be extremely
    interesting to see its occurrence in Balkan Vlachs, as this would confirm/disprove the
    Italian component in their origin. However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans,
    suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-
    century period of Venetian rule of the island. It also occurs in 4.1% of Greeks, where it
    might come from any period since the Roman annexation of the Hellenistic states to the
    Vlachs.
    from this link
    http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

    or
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08...ntral-and.html

    You could be correct because the Veneto area has only 40% R1b marker today ( maybe it was different in the past)
    What is your theory on this marker in crete?
    well do not believe all titles,
    for example in Spain lives a Noble that still has the title of Byzantine emperror,
    for example the case of Monferat (boniface) shows us that title give prestige so many want to create,

    now about crete it depends on spot areas,
    Krigging methods gives maps so to understand spots,

    so the secure and correct is to search the spot, the village and its History, and then to make conclusions,
    but I believe that R1b in some areas, including Crete is added at enetocracy times,
    a 2-3 % of population with 40% R1b gives an extra 1-1.5% R1b
    which I believe is correct
    Besides I have to look at King for the R1b of Smyrna people, which have enough, and Crete had connection with Smyrna,

    But I believe that a 1-2% of R1b is added after 1200 AD in crete

    But where U-152+ has its founder effect?
    from there you find the secret
    the founder effect area is key to devastations,

  3. #228
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellene
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    nope pure R1a
    the R1a1* is later
    simply it is difficult to define that this or that is primary or major,
    Both are connected with ancient Greek History,
    but R1b has also some connection with Venice times, but not that big,
    Old studies write R1*(xR1a1) which actually refers to R1b. Not R1a!

  4. #229
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellene
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    well do not believe all titles,
    for example in Spain lives a Noble that still has the title of Byzantine emperror,
    for example the case of Monferat (boniface) shows us that title give prestige so many want to create,

    now about crete it depends on spot areas,
    Krigging methods gives maps so to understand spots,

    so the secure and correct is to search the spot, the village and its History, and then to make conclusions,
    but I believe that R1b in some areas, including Crete is added at enetocracy times,
    a 2-3 % of population with 40% R1b gives an extra 1-1.5% R1b
    which I believe is correct
    Besides I have to look at King for the R1b of Smyrna people, which have enough, and Crete had connection with Smyrna,

    But I believe that a 1-2% of R1b is added after 1200 AD in crete

    But where U-152+ has its founder effect?
    from there you find the secret
    the founder effect area is key to devastations,
    You are correct about searching the spot where Cretan U152+ is predominantly found. On Crete it is where the Venetians did not live. These pockets in the Lasithi Plateau and Sfakia (Apokorona) Highlands were vehemently opposed to Venetian rule. You need to read about the revolts and study the difference between Cretan Highlanders and Cretan Lowlanders. It took thousands of years to bring R1a to around 5% in these villages, how is it possible that in 400yrs you will find between 5-7% U152+ in these very hard-to-reach parts of Crete and the Peloponnese?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellene
    Country: Greece



    Venetians were not rural villagers, then there is the suspicious nature of the Greek Orthodox towards the Latin Church. The wealthy Greeks and Venetians intermarried but this population lived in town (chora), not in the rural peasant population. People do not mix with other cultures when they are illiterate, poor and live in isolation.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Old studies write R1*(xR1a1) which actually refers to R1b. Not R1a!

    nope it says R1a I am sure about that,

    and i think it is mostly R1a1a

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    You are correct about searching the spot where Cretan U152+ is predominantly found. On Crete it is where the Venetians did not live. These pockets in the Lasithi Plateau and Sfakia (Apokorona) Highlands were vehemently opposed to Venetian rule. You need to read about the revolts and study the difference between Cretan Highlanders and Cretan Lowlanders. It took thousands of years to bring R1a to around 5% in these villages, how is it possible that in 400yrs you will find between 5-7% U152+ in these very hard-to-reach parts of Crete and the Peloponnese?
    I agree, but that low intermix which may allied the Cretans at 1860 might be 2-4% of Crete meaning that a 1-2% of U-152 is added in the already existed R1b before Venice,

  8. #233
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    allied the Cretans at 1860 might be 2-4% of Crete
    The Venetian Republic ended in 1797, not sure what alliance you are referring to here.
    Anyhow, a 2-4% representation throughout an entire rural population cannot occur within the time-frame you are proposing.

    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    meaning that a 1-2% of U-152 is added in the already existed R1b before Venice
    Again, 1-2% increase in the entire rural population, your argument may have had merit if the 1-2% increase was only found in the towns where the Venetians had lived, but this is not the case.

    Think of it in terms of a survey, if you want a representative sample you will need to survey people from rural and urban centers. Most Venetians if not all were concentrated around the burgo or castello. They did not frequent the interior rural settlements and definitely did not have intimate relations with the villagers.

  9. #234
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
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    T2

    Ethnic group
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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    nope it says R1a I am sure about that,

    and i think it is mostly R1a1a
    Could you post the full details of the paper, if it does say R1a of 24% in Calabria then this is very significant and needs to be discussed further. A link to the article would be great.

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Could you post the full details of the paper, if it does say R1a of 24% in Calabria then this is very significant and needs to be discussed further. A link to the article would be great.
    http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Scozzari2001.pdf

  11. #236
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellene
    Country: Greece



    HG1 = R1b
    HG2 = I
    HG3 = R1a [known for a brief period as HG2]

    The old system of classifying haplogroups confuses many people.

    Scozzari et al. (2001) found 21.1% R1b (HG1) and 10.5% R1a (HG3) in Calabria.

    You can confirm this by looking at the figures for Sardinia where HG2 (I) predominates with very high frequencies. This study found 10% R1a in Calabria which has never been duplicated, questioning the reliability of this study.

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    Ethnic group
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    HG1 = R1b
    HG2 = I
    HG3 = R1a [known for a brief period as HG2]

    The old system of classifying haplogroups confuses many people.

    Scozzari et al. (2001) found 21.1% R1b (HG1) and 10.5% R1a (HG3) in Calabria.

    You can confirm this by looking at the figures for Sardinia where HG2 (I) predominates with very high frequencies. This study found 10% R1a in Calabria which has never been duplicated, questioning the reliability of this study.

    are you sure it is not the oposite?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    are you sure it is not the oposite?
    I am certain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    But I like your division for the other regions, so I will use it for the Y-DNA frequency tables on Eupedia.

    The problem is that the samples over-represent Crete (5%) of the population taking 20% of the samples (creating a 4x inflation)

    And it underrepresented Central Greece-Epirus a bigger population center, yet only represented by 12.5% of the samples (creating a minimum 3x defect)

    This will influence the the overall accuracy of the frequencies where the contrast is highest in both regions.

    Highest contrast: E1b1b samples the highest at 31.5% in C. Greece & lowest in Crete E1b1b 8.8%, this alone moves E1b1b at least 5%, because it effected the frequencies of other regions that are much higher than 8.8%, especially that none of the sample had 45% peak samples, to reduce the 8.8% in Crete!

    E1b1b (+5) ------------26%

    Moderate contrast: R1b is the lowest in Central Greece at 10.2% & slightly above average in Crete at 17.1%, this sampling disparity should be represented by a 1.5% point adjustment
    R1b (-1.5) ------------ 14%

    J2, J1 & G2 also peak in Greece, but those have moderate effect
    J2 (-2) --------------- 21%
    J1 composite was 5% goes down to 3% (which is already there)
    G2 (-0.5)------------ 6.5%

    LT is 4.5% on the table, but all studies samples are under 4%, so it should be
    LT (-1)----------------3.5%

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    R1b-DF27
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    Where do Greeks get all their R1a from? Was it the Dorians, Ionians, etc? Or more ancient IE migrations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    And would it be an insult to say that your ancestors were Anatolian? Turkey is just the name of a geographic area used for classification. If your ancestors came from modern Turkey/Anatolia, the Y-DNA must be classified under Turkey (which is not the same as "Turks", obviously. Turks are an ethnic minority of Anatolia originally from Central Asia) for the sake of consistency. When I make a category for France, I do not mean to imply that it is the Y-DNA of the Franks, which, like the Turks, were an ethnic group that invaded a region and gave their name to it. Not every region has a unique geographic name for it (like Anatolia), which is why I use modern country names. I also use other geographic divisions, like "North Greece" or "South Germany" or "Auvergne" or "Sicily". It doesn't mean that these are separate ethnic groups, just more specific regions.

    Only the Jews have are listed under a non-geographic category because of their wide diaspora and long segregation from the mainstream population in the countries where they lived.
    Maciamo, Greeks should be listed under a non-geographic category.

    Calrlton Coon summarizes why:
    The title of this section is The Greeks, and not Greece, since from the mythical days of the Argonauts to the present, neither the peninsula of Hellas nor Ionia and the Aegean Islands have been large enough to hold the far-wandering Hellenes. Greek is a language and a civilization, the Greeks a people; the Greeks are the descendants of all the peoples who have adopted and retained that language and that civilization from classical times to the present.

    The races of Europe Chapter 12,s14

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


    Bombay was pronounced as Bumbai. The British left in 1959 and Indianization of city and street names began.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    cảm ơn vì chia sẻ bổ ích.............................

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    Quote Originally Posted by Degredado View Post
    Where do Greeks get all their R1a from? Was it the Dorians, Ionians, etc? Or more ancient IE migrations?
    Slavs it was.

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    don' t believe all Y-R1A is slavic, it is South Asian (geographic) too
    some rare SNPs are found only among Germans and Celts: maybe Greeks have two or more sources of R1a, come at different times - surely too Greeks have some slavic R1a -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    don' t believe all Y-R1A is slavic, it is South Asian (geographic) too
    some rare SNPs are found only among Germans and Celts: maybe Greeks have two or more sources of R1a, come at different times - surely too Greeks have some slavic R1a -
    Do we have subclades for Greeks tested?
    I'm of the opinion too they don't have only Slavic R1a but also other clades.
    What's your opinion about it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Do we have subclades for Greeks tested?
    I'm of the opinion too they don't have only Slavic R1a but also other clades.
    What's your opinion about it?
    The thracians where also in majority R1a and even the Pelagasians.

    see/read about the 4 main thracian "super" tribes, the dacians, getae, moesian and Odyssian.

    The thracians also dealt in trading women and male slaves with the hittites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The thracians where also in majority R1a and even the Pelagasians.

    see/read about the 4 main thracian "super" tribes, the dacians, getae, moesian and Odyssian.

    The thracians also dealt in trading women and male slaves with the hittites.
    I am a bit confused in the relation between southern slavs and thracians. Do you think serbs and bulgarians got their R1a from the thracians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The thracians where also in majority R1a and even the Pelagasians.

    see/read about the 4 main thracian "super" tribes, the dacians, getae, moesian and Odyssian.

    The thracians also dealt in trading women and male slaves with the hittites.
    Can you post the source about Thracians about being R1a?
    About Pelasgians we don't even know who they were so R1a is a bogus, plus weren't Pelasgians the oldest people in Balkans?
    If that was the case R1a should have been unlikely to be carried.

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