Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

[Kingslav]

Are you going for "alternative truth" now? IE were in Anatolia since 1,600 BC, at least.
Secondly, at least half of your DNA is from assimilated farmers and WHGs, if not more. You represent conquerors and conquered at the same time. Thirdly, there is not much of original IE culture left in you to feel proud of "being" one. You dress differently, you changed their religion, culture, way of life, music, tribal laws, etc. You have nothing in common with them except few simple words that maybe they could understand, with difficulty.
Oh, one more thing. Your Y-DNA was probably assimilated by IE.

Oh no Lebrok, is this some sort of R1AvsR1B message war lol. Truth is im Indo-European but my Y-DNA has survived in continental Europe the longest and has remained I2A-DIN even after mingling with Indo-Europeans than this new Slavic race assimilated in Greece and the proof is found in modern Greek DNA has Slavic admixture exceeding 15%, besides the proof is found in the map.

 

[Kingslav]

What are you doing posting on a genetics thread when you don't know anything about population genetics? Have you read any of the genetics papers of the last five years?

The Anatolian farmers weren't very big on mingling with the WHG they encountered, taking on barely a few percent. It took 2,000 years for MN people to pick up a grand total of perhaps 25% of hunter-gatherer ancestry. By the time the Indo-Europeans arrived, they had CHG, also known as Caucasus ancestry, as well as some farmer ancestry of their own. People around the current area of Hungary have been tested and are between 50-55% "farmer" at least. Also, as LeBrok has pointed out, the Indo-Europeans reached these areas in the Bronze Age.

Where have you been?

Stop embarrassing yourself, and do some reading before you post..

This is deflection, there is still Slavic admixture in these coastal mediterranean population. I have good amount Anatolian Farmer and still pure Slav.

 

[Yetos]

We assimilated the Anatolian farmers, they not assimilate us, Indo-Europeans invaded this territory in 5th Century AD.

Kingslav

one think to remember

J and I are from the same Hg IJ

 

[Ralphie Boy]

To continue with Cretan, Islander and Mainland Greeks

Crete, the number is 9

1. J2a1-M319: 4
2. J2a1-L210: 1
3. J2a1-L198: 1
4. J2a1-FGC35503: 1
5. J2a1-Y6240: 1

Zakynthos

1. J2b-Z631

Kos

1. J2b-M205

For the Mainland Greeks

Arcadian Greeks, number is 4

1. J2a1-L1064 (PF5191): 1
2. J2a1-PF7413 (J2a1-Z6057): 1
3. J2a1-SK1366 (J2a1-Z6057): 1
4. J2b-Z631: 1

Laconian Greeks, number is 4

1. J2a1-Z2177 (J2a1-L70): 2
2. J2b-Z631: 2

Macedonian Greeks, number is 3

1. J2a1-L70: 1
2. J2a1-M319: 1
3. J2b-Z631: 1

Attica province Greeks, number is 2

1. J2a1-PF7413: 1
2. J2b-Z631: 1

Achaean Greek

1. J2a1-S25258

Central Greece, Evrytania

1. J2a1-PF7421 (J2a1-PF5191): 1

Argolis Province

1. J2b-M205

Messenia province

1. J2b-Z631

Can someone please shed some light or put forth ideas about the origins of the J2a1 clades in Greece? I will post a link of a map from one article, showing that J2a1 may be more prevalent in certain parts of Greece than J2b.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474

 

[Kingslav]

Kingslav

one think to remember

J and I are from the same Hg IJ

PuntDNAL K12 Ancient- Kingslav

Population

Sub-Saharan 0.12
Amerindian 2.49
South_Asian 1.29
Near_East 2.70
Siberian 0.34
European_HG 42.95
Caucasus_HG 21.27
South_African_HG 0.20
Anatolian_NF 28.51*****
East_Asian 0.13
Oceanian -
Beringian -


Exactly, to my next point, here my puntDNAL K12 Ancient, this for someone who scores 99.5% East Europe with Ancestry.

28.51% Anatolian Farmer, it's safe to say Slavs were in this coastal Mediterranean region for millenniums.

And likely an advanced civilization around the Black Sea, natural disaster likely took this civilization from it's glory. Definite possibility of superiority over people living in this region, we Slavs inherit the Southern Euro + Steppe genes, and no other group clusters close to us, or shares this combo.

 

[Angela]

This is deflection, there is still Slavic admixture in these coastal mediterranean population. I have good amount Anatolian Farmer and still pure Slav.

What is deflection, that you don't even know when the Indo-Europeans arrived?

28.51% Anatolian Farmer, it's safe to say Slavs were in this coastal Mediterranean region for millenniums.

Is this a joke? How on earth does someone who identifies as a Slav having some Anatolian farmer prove Slavs were in the coastal Mediterranean for millennia? TRB almost pure farmers like Gok got all the way to Sweden. The farmer input went north; the Slavs didn't need to go south to get it. They already had it, although they might have picked up more.

There was no SLAV civilization on the Black Sea. You're not a pure Indo-European. The highest percentage of Indo-European in Europe doesn't get over 50%, and that's in Latvians, perhaps and Scandinavians.

 

[Azzurro]

Can someone please shed some light or put forth ideas about the origins of the J2a1 clades in Greece? I will post a link of a map from one article, showing that J2a1 may be more prevalent in certain parts of Greece than J2b.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474

When it comes to J2a it is a very diverse haplogroup there are many subclades, from 6000-3000 ybp there is 57 different subclades expanding which is a lot to cover, as Maciamo has hypothesized a good portion or majority probably expanded with the Kura Araxes Culture, which would of gone east, west and south, potentially starting up the Minoan Civilization, at least in Crete based on J2a being the most populous line there it can be dated to the Minoan period. In the mainland there probably was some influence from Minoan Crete (maybe minor migrations), Minyans would be the next source of J2a in Mainland Greece. There is also the question with the Pelasgians who themselves would have probably carried some J2a. Now the problem also with Greek J2a is that unfortunately not too many did deep testing and there is not enough samples from Greece to even say this subclade of J2a is the Greek one, though through my research looking at the J2a in Cyprus (you can see it in the thread of Greek and Turkish Cypriot Y which is the paper you quoted), these samples from ftdna and Crete, subclades of J2a1-PF5191 seems to be found in all three. Which is interesting.

 

[Dianatomia]

I don't think that's the case, and I would like to see you support your statement regarding Tosk/Gheg differences with something concrete. There are of course outliers, but vast majority of Tosks don't differ much from Ghegs, and most certainly they aren't any closer to pure Greeks or the islanders where there isn't any substantial Arvanit influence. As was J2b2 broken down further up in this thread, similar situation seems also to be the case with our other major clusters, especially with R1b-BY611, V13-L241, V13-CTS9320 and perhaps few other clusters that we haven't SNP identified yet (judging by STRs).

Gheg Albanians:
E-V13: 38%
J2b: 25%
R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
R1a-M17: 2.5%
I1-M253: 3.3%

Tosk Albanians:
E-V13: 29%
J2b: 12%
R1b-L51 xP311: 8%
R1b-M269 xL51: 6%
I2a-xM26,M223: 11.5%
I2a-M223: 5%
R1a-M17: 6%
I1-M253: 3.8%

Arbereshe Albanians (Southern Italy):
E-V13: 15%
J2b: 3%
R1b-L51 xP311: NONE
R1b-M269 xL51: 8%
I2a-xM26, M223: 10%
I2a-M223: 10%
R1a-M17: 10%
E1b-xV13: 13%
I1-M253: 5.3%

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg2015138a.html


The Tosks and Gheghs differ considerably from each other. Tosks are almost identical to mainland Greeks. Arbaresh and Gheghs are not even remotely related.

Consider that Tosks and Gheghs live alongside each other. The differences are tremendous. The whole of mainland Greece does not have variety in this proportion. Tosks seem like a variety of Greeks. The border between Albania and Greece are invisible genetically. This is because archaic foundations.

 

[Angela]

You can't base genetic similarity solely on uniparental markers like ydna. Has any autosomal analysis been done of Ghegs vs Tosks?

 

[Leka]

You can't base genetic similarity solely on uniparental markers like ydna. Has any autosomal analysis been done of Ghegs vs Tosks?

Lol I honestly thought he had something up his sleeve that I haven't seen yet. Exactly, bottle necks, founder effects and external influences play their part and even region from region in Ghegnia alone you could find such differences - especially in the north where compact clans dominated in the past. Plus one needs to analyse those uniparental markers in detail, clusters and subclusters, which I doubt he even looked into it, to be able to tell if we actually differ. For example majority of J2 in Greeks is actually J2a which Tosks totally lack etc.

Not that I know of, at least not in descent number anyway. But judging by the samples at gedmatch from both sides there isn't any substantial difference, at least that I could detect.

 

[Leka]

To reiterate so my point is more clear and all members here understand, I will use as an example one of the halpogroups you mentioned: V13 for example expanded/diversified during bronze age, two of its most successful branches, E-Z5017 and E-Z5018, formed about 4000 years ago. Hypothetically speaking, since you haven't analyse the data in detail, Tosks and Ghegs samples could all be under E-Z5017 while Greeks under Z-Z5018. You understand now how irrelevant your percentages are, right?

Just because they have less of it doesn't make them closer to Greeks or any other population for that matter.

 

[Corrado]

The major distinction between Gheg and Tosk Albanians is that Tosks have an elevated level of seemingly Slavic Y-Dna (R1a and I2a) to Ghegs, who are pretty much 80-90% E-V13, J2b2, and R1b. Now the latter three Y-Dna are also the predominant lineages in Tosks as well, but their supplementary R1a and I2a is what shifts them in a Macedonian, Bulgarian, and northern Greek direction relative to Ghegs. Any superficial similarity Tosks might have to Greeks is due to the fact that both peoples stem from the same Bronze Age substrate (E-V13, J2, and R1b) population that received a Slavic infusion in the Middle Ages via R1a and I2a. It isn't because Tosks are Albanized Greeks of Albania or anything like that.

 

[Angela]

Lol I honestly thought he had something up his sleeve that I haven't seen yet. Exactly, bottle necks, founder effects and external influences play their part and even region from region in Ghegnia alone you could find such differences - especially in the north where compact clans dominated in the past. Plus one needs to analyse those uniparental markers in detail, clusters and subclusters, which I doubt he even looked into it, to be able to tell if we actually differ. For example majority of J2 in Greeks is actually J2a which Tosks totally lack etc.

Not that I know of, at least not in descent number anyway. But judging by the samples at gedmatch from both sides there isn't any substantial difference, at least that I could detect.

I was sincerely interested in knowing the answer. Still am. So many threads here that deal with this topic are full of post after post of unsubstantiated opinion, supported by no or few points of data.

I was thinking primarily of how Albanians tend to plot on PCAs. They seem to form a rather homogeneous group, not like Italians, who sprawl over large areas of the plot. Of course, I don't know if the academic sample used is split between the two groups. If it is, and there are no studies showing anything different, there doesn't seem to be a big difference between them. Of course, as the British Isles paper showed, if you want to find differences, drill down deep enough and you'll find them anywhere.

 

[Johane Derite]

I was thinking primarily of how Albanians tend to plot on PCAs. They seem to form a rather homogeneous group, not like Italians, who sprawl over large areas of the plot. Of course, I don't know if the academic sample used is split between the two groups. If it is, and there are no studies showing anything different, there doesn't seem to be a big difference between them. Of course, as the British Isles paper showed, if you want to find differences, drill down deep enough and you'll find them anywhere.

Albanian population is small enough, my dream is that some serious academic drops out of the sky and just does a comprehensive study about us and ends the balkan bickering about albanians race, history etc (both from albanians and neighbours).

Obviously the real world doesn't work like this but let's hope that soon every person on earth can afford super detailed dna tests, and that they are fully integrated into a hyper competent Artificial Intelligence that shows every single genetic connection
between every single human alive and dead.

Until then though, we will have more anr more of "unsubstantiated opinions, supported by no or few points of data"

 

[Leka]

I was sincerely interested in knowing the answer. Still am. So many threads here that deal with this topic are full of post after post of unsubstantiated opinion, supported by no or few points of data.

I was thinking primarily of how Albanians tend to plot on PCAs. They seem to form a rather homogeneous group, not like Italians, who sprawl over large areas of the plot. Of course, I don't know if the academic sample used is split between the two groups. If it is, and there are no studies showing anything different, there doesn't seem to be a big difference between them. Of course, as the British Isles paper showed, if you want to find differences, drill down deep enough and you'll find them anywhere.

Yeah lol, me too

On PCA unfortunately I haven't seen any scientific study as of yet, but judging by other sources,Gedmatch, global similarity map at 23andme etc. we are more compact than Greeks - they tend to be allover the place, all depends where they're from really. Of course, we have outliers as well just like any other population, and we also have to remember these divisions we're speaking of, Gheg and Tosk, are dialectal. Here is an amateur map I made from K15:

Limaj who is a Tosk is an outlier there, but as you can see he is western shifted for some reason - Greeks in general are more eastern. Hila is another Tosk in there, Leapfrogger is a Kosovar, along with Leki (me), Dibran is from Dibra and the rest are Kosovars. Not many samples, but majority of Tosks I have seen so far plot between me, leapfrogger and Hila.

 

[Angela]

Yeah lol, me too

On PCA unfortunately I haven't seen any scientific study as of yet, but judging by other sources,Gedmatch, global similarity map at 23andme etc. we are more compact than Greeks - they tend to be allover the place, all depends where they're from really. Of course, we have outliers as well just like any other population, and we also have to remember these divisions we're speaking of, Gheg and Tosk, are dialectal. Here is an amateur map I made from K15:

Limaj who is a Tosk is an outlier there, but as you can see he is western shifted for some reason - Greeks in general are more eastern. Hila is another Tosk in there, Leapfrogger is a Kosovar, along with Leki (me), Dibran is from Dibra and the rest are Kosovars. Not many samples, but majority of Tosks I have seen so far plot between me, leapfrogger and Hila.

So, basically east of Tuscans, who themselves are northeast of Sardinians. It's what I rather expected. Not a big difference then, although academic samples might be slightly different, and of course, as I said above, if you want to drill down far enough you can get genetic distance from one town to the next.

Do you in fact know where the academic Albanian samples were collected? That would tell us a lot. Here is the plot from Haak et al 2015. They basically cluster with the Greeks (I'm assuming Thessaly) and Bulgarians although one is further south, perhaps with Peloponnese?

 

[Leka]

Yes, basically we're eastern shifted Tuscan's, just southwest of Bulgarians and overlapping with number of northern Greeks (Epirots, Thessalians etc) and to an extent even with Slavic Macedonians - important to note that even Kosovars tend to overlap with the mentioned Greeks. Some of that similarity might date back to bronze age as was postulated further up by one of the members but to my opinion good part of it most likely dates from early middle ages and onward when Albanians clans settled down there in droves.

Unfortunately I don't know where those samples were taken from. I have seen few other studies use Albanian samples but they don't specify where they are from hence why I didn't use them (my gut tells me they are from Kosova though).

 

[Angela]

Yes, basically we're eastern shifted Tuscan's, just southwest of Bulgarians and overlapping with number of northern Greeks (Epirots, Thessalians etc) and to an extent even with Slavic Macedonians - important to note that even Kosovars tend to overlap with the mentioned Greeks. Some of that similarity might date back to bronze age as was postulated further up by one of the members but to my opinion good part of it most likely dates from early middle ages and onward when Albanians clans settled down there in droves.

Unfortunately I don't know where those samples were taken from. I have seen few other studies use Albanian samples but they don't specify where they are from hence why I didn't use them (my gut tells me they are from Kosova though).

We really need ancient dna from Italy. It's a huge hole in the data. Even when we get it, however, it can't completely be understood without also understanding the ancient genetics from the other side of the Adriatic, because so many population flows came to Italy through the Greek Islands, Greece, and more northern areas of the Balkans.

The amateurs, people who generally know almost nothing of ancient history in Italy and/or the Balkans persist in trying to understand Italian genetics in a vacuum. It can't be done, imo.

Thirty years ago, Luigi Cavalli-Sforza said that northern Italians were similar to Bulgarians, and Albanians to Tuscans, yet we have these so called internet experts acting as if they've just discovered all this. The irony is that he came to his conclusions using blood proteins, well before discoveries about snps, and all these new software programs.

One of his cluster maps.

It may not be perfect, and directionality may go every which way, but it still tells me a lot.

 

[Leka]

We really need ancient dna from Italy. It's a huge hole in the data. Even when we get it, however, it can't completely be understood without also understanding the ancient genetics from the other side of the Adriatic, because so many population flows came to Italy through the Greek Islands, Greece, and more northern areas of the Balkans.

The amateurs, people who generally know almost nothing of ancient history in Italy and/or the Balkans persist in trying to understand Italian genetics in a vacuum. It can't be done, imo.

Thirty years ago, Luigi Cavalli-Sforza said that northern Italians were similar to Bulgarians, and Albanians to Tuscans, yet we have these so called internet experts acting as if they've just discovered all this. The irony is that he came to his conclusions using blood proteins, well before discoveries about snps, and all these new software programs.

One of his cluster maps.

Yeah agreed, fascinating stuff. We really need some big scientific studies like that one that was done in Sardinia for both regions, Italy and Balkans. Both regions currently are extremely under studied.

On top of that, we also seem to share some of our most common clusters with Sardinians and Italians. For example, our major cluster under R1b-CTS9219>BY611, some of the earlier splits, have been found in Sardinia on the after-mentioned scientific study sample ERS256992 and Italy sample YF08067 (though Mr. Bissacia has mentioned at anthrogenica that his family think they might be of Arbereshe origin). They might be from Bisaku, Mirdite (Fani tribe). Last name looks similar. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y10789/

R1b-PF7563 that's found among us is also popular in Bulgaria, Italy and Greece as well, similarly we also seem to share few other clusters under V13 (L241 & CTS9320), and J2b2. Some of it is probably Arbereshe influence, but most certainly not all - some of those early splits under V13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563 most likely date to the earlier movements from both sides, perhaps when Indo-Europeans were expanding and crossing into Italy from the Balkans and all the way up to Greek, Illyrian and Roman periods? Time will tell I guess.

It might happen in Italy, but I am not confident that we will be seeing such a study in the Balkans in the near future. We just have to rely on fellow Albanians testing and contributing for now.This hasn't been going well either unfortunately for us. Albanians, and Greeks for that matter, are extremely paranoid when it comes to such tests, mostly because of ignorance to my opinion. We have been going at it for like four years now and we only have 128 members (embarrassing!) lol. Surprisingly enough, however, South Slavs seem to be doing really well, especially Serbian and Bulgarian projects. They seem to be more into it and generally are more informed. Geeks and Albanians tirelessly will debate day in and out about a dress or cap who wore it first or where it originates but won't engage in real science or contribute by testing lmao

 

[blevins13]

Yeah lol, me too

On PCA unfortunately I haven't seen any scientific study as of yet, but judging by other sources,Gedmatch, global similarity map at 23andme etc. we are more compact than Greeks - they tend to be allover the place, all depends where they're from really. Of course, we have outliers as well just like any other population, and we also have to remember these divisions we're speaking of, Gheg and Tosk, are dialectal. Here is an amateur map I made from K15:

Limaj who is a Tosk is an outlier there, but as you can see he is western shifted for some reason - Greeks in general are more eastern. Hila is another Tosk in there, Leapfrogger is a Kosovar, along with Leki (me), Dibran is from Dibra and the rest are Kosovars. Not many samples, but majority of Tosks I have seen so far plot between me, leapfrogger and Hila.

Hi can you elaborate more on Limaj...I don't understand what you mean. (He is my father in law from Vranisht, Laberia.if you got the results on 23 and me.)


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum