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Thread: Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

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    If not classify them as Eastern Greeks, what about Anatolian Greeks in a category of their own without including them under Greece or Turkey, the same way you do with Kurds?

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    If not classify them as Eastern Greeks, what about Anatolian Greeks in a category of their own without including them under Greece or Turkey, the same way you do with Kurds?
    Do these 'Eastern Greeks' speak their own native language?

    The issue with the Kurds is that the Anatolian Kurds are not assimilated into the Turkish nation and Turkish culture. And they do still consider themselves as 'Kurds'. They still speak their own language and have a distinguish culture (Kurdish/Iranic) to other Turk. What about those 'Eastern' Greeks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Do these 'Eastern Greeks' speak their own native language?

    The issue with the Kurds is that the Anatolian Kurds are not assimilated into the Turkish nation and Turkish culture. And they do still consider themselves as 'Kurds'. They still speak their own language and have a distinguish culture (Kurdish/Iranic) to other Turk. What about those 'Eastern' Greeks?
    It's obvious that you didn't understand anything of what I said...this 89 samples are from Greek men who are currently living in Greece but have a paternal-origin from Anatolia region (Fokaia and Smyrne) like 25% of modern Greeks. Their ancestors who lived under Ottoman Empire had a native Greek language, were Christian Orthodox and allways thought of themselves as Greeks (which is now proven by genetics).
    After the ex-change of populations between Greece and Turkey they came in Greece like 1.200.000 other Anatolian Greeks and settled in various places. If we are interested on who modern Greeks are by a genetic point of view they SHOULD definetely be included under Greece not Turkey, the same way that Turks of Albanian or Bosniac or Tatar origin are included under Turkey and German Jews under Ashkenazi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Do these 'Eastern Greeks' speak their own native language?

    The issue with the Kurds is that the Anatolian Kurds are not assimilated into the Turkish nation and Turkish culture. And they do still consider themselves as 'Kurds'. They still speak their own language and have a distinguish culture (Kurdish/Iranic) to other Turk. What about those 'Eastern' Greeks?
    better ask your shelf are they alllowed to speak it?

    kurds are muslim so 'not enemy for Turks,
    kurds were allied with turks,

    Greek is forbiden language in turkey except Polis so don't compare things

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    In fact Goga the case of Anatolian Kurds holds even less credibility than the case of Anatolian Greeks because:
    1. A lot of Kurds are assimilated into Turkish society.
    2. They currently live in modern state of Turkey.
    But Maciamo correctly sees the inconsistance of placing Kurds under Turkey so he even gives them a non-official region name (Kurdistan/Turkey Kurds)... but he classifies Greeks who speak Greek, live in Greece and would consider it an insult to be called Turks
    under Turkey. Do you see how biased against Greeks he is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    If we are interested on who modern Greeks are by a genetic point of view they SHOULD definetely be included under Greece not Turkey, the same way that Turks of Albanian or Bosniac or Tatar origin are included under Turkey and German Jews under Ashkenazi.
    Take it easy man. I don't know much about the Greeks.

    But I do agree with you about the Greeks from Turkey are Greeks. There're a lot Kurds in Central Asia. Persian kings deported many Kurds into Turkmenistan. They changed their DNA, but somehow I do consider them as Kurds..

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    better ask your shelf are they alllowed to speak it?
    Ρε φιλε ουτε κι εσυ καταλαβες μου φαινεται. Η συγκεκριμενη ερευνα αφορα Ελληνες που εχουν πατρικη καταγωγη απο Ιωνια και ζουν στην Ελλαδα σημερα. Ο Ματσιαμος ομως υποστηριζει οτι πρεπει να περιληφθουν στην Τουρκια και δινει μια ηλιθια δικαιολογια για την επιλογη του. Πιστευω οτι το κανει επειδη
    1. Εχουν πολυ R1b και θα ανεβασουν τον Ελληνικο μεσο ορο
    2. Ειναι πολυ κοντα στους Χιωτες και Μυτιληνιους αποδεικνυοντας οτι οι Ελληνες δεν μπασταρδευτηκαν με τους Τουρκους (τουλαχιστον οι Σμυρνιοι)
    Το οτι ειναι προκατειλημενος με τους Ελληνες φαινεται και απο αλλα πραγματα αλλα βαριεμαι να τα πιανω ενα-ενα. Προσεξε μονο οτι ενω ηξερε για ολες τις μελετες που αφορουσαν Ελληνες (το παραδεχτηκε) χρησιμοποιουσε εκεινες τις μελετες που αυξαναν το E1b1b και μειωναν το R1b.
    Αν ειχε αγαθες προθεσεις η δικαιολογια του οτι αφου καταγονται απο το κρατος που σημερα ονομαζουμε Τουρκια πρεπει να συμπεριληφθουν στην κατηγορια Τουρκια θα εκανε το ιδιο και με τους Εβραιους ή τους Κουρδους. Ομως εφαρμοζει αυτον τον κανονα μονο για τους Ελληνες

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    Btw, Greeks from Anatolia are less 'Afro-Asiatic' than native Greeks in Greece. Anatolian Greeks lived much more inland in Anatolia and had less contact with the Semites from Levant (Lebanon) and Egyptians...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Btw, Greeks from Anatolia are less 'Afro-Asiatic' than native Greeks in Greece. Anatolian Greeks lived much more inland in Anatolia and had less contact with the Semites from Levant (Lebanon) and Egyptians...
    If you call E1b1b Afro-Asiatic you are definetely confused because the sub-clades we find in Greece are either European (E1b1b1a2) or Levantine (E1b1b1a3 + E1b1b1c) while Greeks (native or Anatolian) score 0% African in Autosomal percentages. You should get more information about sub-clades of haplogroups...

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    But Maciamo correctly sees the inconsistance of placing Kurds under Turkey so he even gives them a non-official region name (Kurdistan/Turkey Kurds)... but he classifies Greeks who speak Greek, live in Greece and would consider it an insult to be called Turks
    under Turkey. Do you see how biased against Greeks he is?
    Well, I understand where he is coming from, and it doesn't seem like flat bias to me. Those Greeks who can trace their ancestry back to what is now Turkey he considers to be in a similar situation as me... I'm an American, but my Y-line would not be useful for a study of Native Americans, it would be useful (if anything) in a study of historic Swiss populations, because my Y-line comes from Switzerland. Similarly, Maciamo wants to remove Anatolian Greeks from his sample pool of those native to the land encompassed by modern Greece.

    I think there's value in both your methods and Maciamo's methods. I think the difference is that you're doing a summary of "Greeks," and he is doing a summary of "Greece."

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    If you call E1b1b Afro-Asiatic you are definetely confused because the sub-clades we find in Greece are either European (E1b1b1a2) or Levantine (E1b1b1a3 + E1b1b1c) while Greeks (native or Anatolian) score 0% African in Autosomal percentages. You should get more information about sub-clades of haplogroups...
    How come that other native Europeans have MUCH less E1b1b??? I know that even Adolf Hitler was E1b.. something, but hey E1b.. is somehow linked with Afro-Asiatic folks...

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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Well, I understand where he is coming from, and it doesn't seem like flat bias to me. Those Greeks who can trace their ancestry back to what is now Turkey he considers to be in a similar situation as me... I'm an American, but my Y-line would not be useful for a study of Native Americans, it would be useful (if anything) in a study of historic Swiss populations, because my Y-line comes from Switzerland. Similarly, Maciamo wants to remove Anatolian Greeks from his sample pool of those native to the land encompassed by modern Greece.

    I think there's value in both your methods and Maciamo's methods. I think the difference is that you're doing a summary of "Greeks," and he is doing a summary of "Greece."
    Exactly! Those Anatolian Kurds live in their homeland (east Anatolia), while those 'Anatolian' Greeks left their homeland and migrated into Europe (Greece).

    Maybe he considers Turkey as Greece ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Btw, Greeks from Anatolia are less 'Afro-Asiatic' than native Greeks in Greece. Anatolian Greeks lived much more inland in Anatolia and had less contact with the Semites from Levant (Lebanon) and Egyptians...
    are you sure?
    what makes believe that levantines are semitic?

    In fact anatolian Greeks are more closely to Levantines and more local to minor asia than kurds,

    they share a j2a which exist only in them,

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    are you sure?
    what makes believe that levantines are semitic?
    Maybe because they speak a Semitic language... ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Well, I understand where he is coming from, and it doesn't seem like flat bias to me. Those Greeks who can trace their ancestry back to what is now Turkey he considers to be in a similar situation as me... I'm an American, but my Y-line would not be useful for a study of Native Americans, it would be useful (if anything) in a study of historic Swiss populations, because my Y-line comes from Switzerland. Similarly, Maciamo wants to remove Anatolian Greeks from his sample pool of those native to the land encompassed by modern Greece.

    I think there's value in both your methods and Maciamo's methods. I think the difference is that you're doing a summary of "Greeks," and he is doing a summary of "Greece."
    Would you classify Ashkenazi Jews under Poland or Germany? And where did Maciamo ever claimed that he tries to identify native ancestry so he uses his samples this way? If he did so he should have a Native Anatolian category not a Turkish one, while he should reject those samples from Greece who might have distant Albanian or Slavic ancestry but he doesn't. He only does it for Greeks from Anatolia that's what I'm saying.
    BTW the your case is different than Anatolian Greeks. If you were of Amerindian ancestry and had emigrated to Switzerland but returned to your homeland and your DNA was similar with other Amerindians then you should be clasified under Amerindians not Swiss (place Greek instead of Amerindian and Turk in place of Swiss and you've got the right eqivelant...

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    are you sure?
    what makes believe that levantines are semitic?

    In fact anatolian Greeks are more closely to Levantines and more local to minor asia than kurds,

    they share a j2a which exist only in them,

    Hebrew and Aramaic are originally from the Levant. These are Semitic languages, just a suggestion?

    I know that Greeks are more related to Afroasiatic Levantines and northern Africans (egyptians) than to the Iranic Kurds. I do 100% agree with you. Thank you for stressing this out...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Hebrew and Aramaic are originally from the Levant. These are Semitic languages, just a suggestion?

    I know that Greeks are more related to Afroasiatic Levantines and northern Africans (egyptians) than to the Iranic Kurds. I do 100% agree with you. Thank you for stressing this out...
    Do you feel superior from the ancient Egyptians and Levantines (Phoenicians & Jews) who you asoume contributed their genes to ancient Greeks and they to us? Do you feel superior from Greeks because you think that you are a pure Iranic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    Do you feel superior from the ancient Egyptians and Levantines (Phoenicians & Jews) who you asoume contributed their genes to ancient Greeks and they to us? Do you feel superior from Greeks because you think that you are a pure Iranic?
    No, because Kurds have also some Afro-Asiatic genes (j1 and e haplogroups) from the Levant (Jewish & Babylonian-Akkadian-Assyrian) in them too. Kurds don't deny it! And Kurds are not ashamed of it but are proud of it. Kurds don't try to change and rewrite their own history, like some other folks are trying to rewrite the human history…

    Btw, Kurdish ancestors (Mittani royal house and Kassites nobility) had many connections with the ancient Egyptians too.

    But you can't change the facts. Blue is blue, green is green, white is white, black is black and red is red...

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    Who is trying to rewrite human history? And who is ashamed of his Afro-Asiatic ancestry and tries to hide it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    Would you classify Ashkenazi Jews under Poland or Germany?
    Well it depends on what you're trying to measure, doesn't it? Few Ashkenazi Jews can prove their patriline came from Israel; in fact, the Jewish DNA Project has a good sample of Ashkenazi Jews with typically Germanic haplogroups like I1. So, if what we want is the entire gene pool of those whose families lived in Germany at the beginning of a genealogical timeframe, then I would put the ones in Germany in the Germany sample to avoid bias. But of course I would never put in an ethnic Jew if the intent is to find out the genetics of ethnic Germans. Similarly, you seem to be interested in ethnic Greeks... if so, your methods are appropriate. In fact, your numbers may be more useful for understanding the historic movements of people. But there is value in both, as long as we're clear with what we're doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    And where did Maciamo ever claimed that he tries to identify native ancestry so he uses his samples this way? If he did so he should have a Native Anatolian category not a Turkish one, while he should reject those samples from Greece who might have distant Albanian or Slavic ancestry but he doesn't. He only does it for Greeks from Anatolia that's what I'm saying.
    I guess I should be careful to avoid "speaking for" Maciamo, that's just the impression I got from him, and how I think about things. But I think he's doing things based mostly on people whose families are from modern countries within a genealogical timeframe (except in special cases like Kurds), in which case he seems consistent. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    BTW the your case is different than Anatolian Greeks. If you were of Amerindian ancestry and had emigrated to Switzerland but returned to your homeland and your DNA was similar with other Amerindians then you should be clasified under Amerindians not Swiss (place Greek instead of Amerindian and Turk in place of Swiss and you've got the right eqivelant...
    OK you got me there, I'd have to be in the situation you describe to be perfectly analogous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Well it depends on what you're trying to measure, doesn't it? Few Ashkenazi Jews can prove their patriline came from Israel; in fact, the Jewish DNA Project has a good sample of Ashkenazi Jews with typically Germanic haplogroups like I1. So, if what we want is the entire gene pool of those whose families lived in Germany at the beginning of a genealogical timeframe, then I would put the ones in Germany in the Germany sample to avoid bias. But of course I would never put in an ethnic Jew if the intent is to find out the genetics of ethnic Germans. Similarly, you seem to be interested in ethnic Greeks... if so, your methods are appropriate. In fact, your numbers may be more useful for understanding the historic movements of people. But there is value in both, as long as we're clear with what we're doing.
    I have allready explained that the case of Anatolian Greeks is even more special than Kurds...because they now live in their original homeland (yes I'm of this crazy folks who believe that modern Greeks have at least a fair amount of ancient Greek DNA, which offcourse doesnt exclude forreign input) and their Y-DNA appears to be almost a perfect mainstream Greek example...in fact Ionian Greeks and those from the Aegean islands might be the purest of Greeks since Ionians definetely didn't mix with Turks (no Central or East Asian haplogroups detected) and Albanian or Slavic influence in Ionia is zero...allthough some native Anatolian ancestry can't be ruled out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    I have allready explained that the case of Anatolian Greeks is even more special than Kurds...because they now live in their original homeland (yes I'm of this crazy folks who believe that modern Greeks have at least a fair amount of ancient Greek DNA, which offcourse doesnt exclude forreign input) and their Y-DNA appears to be almost a perfect mainstream Greek example...in fact Ionian Greeks and those from the Aegean islands might be the purest of Greeks since Ionians definetely didn't mix with Turks (no Central or East Asian haplogroups detected) and Albanian or Slavic influence in Ionia is zero...allthough some native Anatolian ancestry can't be ruled out.

    and that could be of Vrygian most which are considered to have relativity,

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    My fathers side can trace their ancestry to Smyrna in Ionia, and I would take it as a big insult if I was classified as a turk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    OK you got me there, I'd have to be in the situation you describe to be perfectly analogous.
    I could also have said :
    Since your ancestors emigrated to USA from Switzerland (like Ionian Greeks emigrated to Anatolia from Greece) and your Y-DNA appears closer to Swiss than Native Americans (like the Y-DNA of Ionians is closer to Greeks than Turks) then you should be classified under Swiss not Native American...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Maybe because they speak a Semitic language... ?
    hahaha

    maybe they did not before?

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