Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

[Sile]

Greek Islands were historically more isolated and free from Slavic and Arvanite settlements which had definitely some input on Mainland's population. We just have to consider the basic geography to understand it. Some Islands like Crete and Chios has had some Venetian settlements so some North Italian influence is present there.

Crete definitely has some Italian admixture because of Venetian settlements there as well as Ionian Islands and Western Greece do to some extent.

crete and ionion island group and corfu have venetian settlements..............the dodecanese island group plus lesbos has Genoese settlements , but the dodecanese also has recent italian settlements from 1911 until IIRC 1945

 

[Sile]

So according to you the migration of Albanians towards Greece from 1200-1600 had no impact what so ever....https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites


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a lot of Tosks settled in the Morea from the 13th century

 

[Dianatomia]

So according to you the migration of Albanians towards Greece from 1200-1600 had no impact what so ever....https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites


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The Arvanites which have settled in some area's in Greece did not particularly shift mainland Greeks away from Islanders, since the Arvanites overlapped with mainland Greeks in the first place. Greeks from Crete, even though quite related to mainland Greeks, would still have had more impact on mainland Greeks genetically, than Arvanites. So many regions and Islands close to mainland Greece were never settled by Arvanites and they still are closer to (South) Albanians than to Eastern Islanders and especially Cretans or Cypriots. Albania and mainland Greece simply essentially belonged to the same genetic mainframe due to older migrations. And for this same reason Crete, the eastern Islands and Cyprus were never identical to the mainland. They were simply colonized by mainland Greeks and absorbed into the Hellenic cultural mainframe. Or rather, their culture and the mainland Greek culture intermixed and formed the Hellenic body. Zeus for example is a figure from Cretan mythology.

On the other hand Slavs may have had some impact on mainland Greeks (or Albanians for that matter). But still, comparing islands near mainland Greece to mainland Greece, one can see that they differ quite little. So in general I think that the biological impact was quite moderate. Lastly, I never argued that there was no genetic impact since antiquity. There was simply some genetic variety already in ancient times.

 

[Yetos]

So according to you the migration of Albanians towards Greece from 1200-1600 had no impact what so ever....https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites


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@ Blevins

Although I have many arques about dates and times and origin

the one who should read the link you post is someone in forum we both know,
cause have enough accuracy but also some mistakes.

the first Arbanites were Gegs who went to Theba at 1240 about bu Ducchy of Athens
after the entered Attica at 1380 by Peter of Aragonia
and after 1400 pass to Peloponese from the above by Palaiologos license
after 1425 they expand to all over Venicians had colonies,
and venicians bring more from Adriatic sea to a population estimated about 10 000 souls at Venician castle and colonies around peloponese Evoia and Attica.
until 1460 these Arbanites are part of venician castle forces,
almost majority of them were Hellenised by the 1800, and to some big and strong homogenous villages after WW1.


the second, of Albanian speakers, wave is much later mainly by christian Tosks and Vlachs (Arvantovlachs) who were pressed by Muslims
infact around 1680 till Ali Pasha times, waves of Greeks Slavs Vlachs Albanians migrate to Greece, with their villages burnt down at Epiros and Albania
search the Moschopolis case, and many other,
an ethnic religious cleansing that happened there, created devastation,
read N Kasomoulis memories, you will find many interesting on what was going on that time.


Simon Simeonsis mentions at 1300 about AD that at Dyrrachion all were Christians
and major population was speaking Latin
secondary were Greeks
and also existed Albanensis

the times after Kastrioti
and the time of the second wave happened a big cleansing there,
and you know it.

The 3rd wave is the times of Orlov's till 1923.
these were pure Albanians who served Ottomans, or equal to Ottomans etc etc
most of them went away, or exchanged, or even kicked off.
like the Lalla ones,
remember that Ottoman supressing forces, at 1820 were mostly Albanian soldiers and Albanian officers.
and there were battles that both armies used Albanian to comunicate each other.

 

[blevins13]

@ Blevins

Although I have many arques about dates and times and origin

the one who should read the link you post is someone in forum we both know,
cause have enough accuracy but also some mistakes.

the first Arbanites were Gegs who went to Theba at 1240 about bu Ducchy of Athens
after the entered Attica at 1380 by Peter of Aragonia
and after 1400 pass to Peloponese from the above by Palaiologos license
after 1425 they expand to all over Venicians had colonies,
and venicians bring more from Adriatic sea to a population estimated about 10 000 souls at Venician castle and colonies around peloponese Evoia and Attica.
until 1460 these Arbanites are part of venician castle forces,
almost majority of them were Hellenised by the 1800, and to some big and strong homogenous villages after WW1.


the second, of Albanian speakers, wave is much later mainly by christian Tosks and Vlachs (Arvantovlachs) who were pressed by Muslims
infact around 1680 till Ali Pasha times, waves of Greeks Slavs Vlachs Albanians migrate to Greece, with their villages burnt down at Epiros and Albania
search the Moschopolis case, and many other,
an ethnic religious cleansing that happened there, created devastation,
read N Kasomoulis memories, you will find many interesting on what was going on that time.


Simon Simeonsis mentions at 1300 about AD that at Dyrrachion all were Christians
and major population was speaking Latin
secondary were Greeks
and also existed Albanensis

the times after Kastrioti
and the time of the second wave happened a big cleansing there,
and you know it.

The 3rd wave is the times of Orlov's till 1923.
these were pure Albanians who served Ottomans, or equal to Ottomans etc etc
most of them went away, or exchanged, or even kicked off.
like the Lalla ones,
remember that Ottoman supressing forces, at 1820 were mostly Albanian soldiers and Albanian officers.
and there were battles that both armies used Albanian to comunicate each other.

My argument is that the genetic footprints of Albanian in Greece is quite substantial.....


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[blevins13]

The Arvanites which have settled in some area's in Greece did not particularly shift mainland Greeks away from Islanders, since the Arvanites overlapped with mainland Greeks in the first place. Greeks from Crete, even though quite related to mainland Greeks, would still have had more impact on mainland Greeks genetically, than Arvanites. So many regions and Islands close to mainland Greece were never settled by Arvanites and they still are closer to (South) Albanians than to Eastern Islanders and especially Cretans or Cypriots. Albania and mainland Greece simply essentially belonged to the same genetic mainframe due to older migrations. And for this same reason Crete, the eastern Islands and Cyprus were never identical to the mainland. They were simply colonized by mainland Greeks and absorbed into the Hellenic cultural mainframe. Or rather, their culture and the mainland Greek culture intermixed and formed the Hellenic body. Zeus for example is a figure from Cretan mythology.

On the other hand Slavs may have had some impact on mainland Greeks (or Albanians for that matter). But still, comparing islands near mainland Greece to mainland Greece, one can see that they differ quite little. So in general I think that the biological impact was quite moderate. Lastly, I never argued that there was no genetic impact since antiquity. There was simply some genetic variety already in ancient times.

Is this a true or not?
In many instances the Arvanites were invited by the Byzantine and Latin rulers of the time. They were employed to re-settle areas that had been largely depopulated through wars, epidemics, and other reasons, and they were employed as soldiers.[12][13]


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[A. Papadimitriou]

My argument is that the genetic footprints of Albanian in Greece is quite substantial.....


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You feel better when you think that?

Is this a true or not?
In many instances the Arvanites were invited by the Byzantine and Latin rulers of the time. They were employed to re-settle areas that had been largely depopulated through wars, epidemics, and other reasons, and they were employed as soldiers.[12][13]

It seems to be true about Attica and NE Peloponnese. But Greeks including Arvanites today don't agree about what these Arvanites were. Many like to think they had Greek origin. I don't support that for a number of reasons but I don't know how mixed they could have been.

 

[blevins13]

You feel better when you think that?



It seems to be true about Attica and NE Peloponnese. But Greeks including Arvanites today don't agree about what these Arvanites were. Many like to think they had Greek origin. I don't support that for a number of reasons but I don't know how mixed they could have been.

Feelings are not the subject here.... let'a focus on evidence.


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[Yetos]

Feelings are not the subject here.... let'a focus on evidence.


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Don't have such furry

cause genetics can work vise-versa

I wrote about Simon Simeonsis
but you did not notice it

we might have Albanizations of Greeks and Aromani in Albania
especially with Tosks and Liapides

as we have Albanization with Goranjie tribes in Albania

 

[blevins13]

Don't have such furry

cause genetics can work vise-versa

I wrote about Simon Simeonsis
but you did not notice it

we might have Albanizations of Greeks and Aromani in Albania
especially with Tosks and Liapides

as we have Albanization with Goranjie tribes in Albania

I tend to refuse this without convincing evidence.....Greek culture lost from Albanian supremacy....very improbable scenario.


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[blevins13]

Don't have such furry

cause genetics can work vise-versa

I wrote about Simon Simeonsis
but you did not notice it

we might have Albanizations of Greeks and Aromani in Albania
especially with Tosks and Liapides

as we have Albanization with Goranjie tribes in Albania

I don't know who Simon and Goranjie are? Elaborate if you can or have time?


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[Yetos]

I don't know who Simon and Goranjie are? Elaborate if you can or have time?


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Simon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symon_Semeonis

Goranjie or Torbesh are the muslim Slavs of Albania

and no it is not supremacy of Greeks or Albanians

but forced assimilation,

Remember Kastrioti and Vallavan Pasha days
and watch today.

 

[LeBrok]

The truth is that Tosk Albanians are very close to the Greeks and practically overlap with mainland Greece. In a similar way Tosk Albanians are closer to mainland Greeks than to Ghegh Albanians, who in their own respect are not too far off from other Albanians and Greeks in general. We can not draw conclusions from this. Or rather, I think you misrepresent this fact to make a claim that somehow mainland Greeks changed towards a certain direction. In fact, it is highly likely that what is today Albania may well have been genetically indistinguishable from mainland Greece already in antiquity. A somewhat different example, mainland Greeks plot closer to Italians from Tuscany than to Cretans and Cypriots. Do you suppose that mainland Greeks are Tuscans? Ofcourse not.




On the contrary. I am the one who suggested that given Greek history we can only assume that there must be some degree of heterogeneity in the Greek populace. I however argue that this was the case already in antiquity. You argue that this was not the case and that they shifted away from each other later on. Well, I respectfully disagree.

Not much to argue about here then, we can only speculate when and how genetic changes or drifts happened. I'm not sure if we can talk about substantial population genetic drift on Greek Islands, even if the most secluded population in Europe, Sardinians, are still plotting very close to European Neolithic. Greek genetics is more likely product of population migration and mixing than independent drift of secluded population.

Fact:
From all the samples of today and ancient, Cypriots are the closest match to Chalcolithic Anatolia. My take on it is that, they are mostly Chalcolithic Anatolia with Near Eastern influence afterwards.

My speculation:
We don't have ancient match for Greek Islanders (yet), but my guess would be they are genetically stuck in Bronze Age.
Mainland represents processes from Iron Age onward, with Albanians going through similar ones.
Or Islanders are everything that happened till end of Greek Empire, and Mainland is last 2ky?

 

[Seanp]

Modern Greek dna are largely descended from Neolithic Anatolian farmers, that's about 50%+ of their genetic make up. Mainland Greeks score higher Yamnaya and EHG related ancestry this can be verified by both autosomal and Y-dna haplogroups.
Neolithic samples from Greece are closely related to Early Neolithic Farmers and modern Sardinians even, but less to to modern Continental European populations. I believe Minoans were a Anatolia Chalcolithic related population and closely related to Troyans, Etruscans and Luwinians. We still don't have autosomal results from there but that's the closest possibility.
Ancient Greek tribes moved from Northward to Greece and they could have brought a Yamnaya like admixture and mix with the local Neolithic Farmers and created the Greek population or the other explanation is that the input of Yamnaya admixture came with the Slavic expansions from North and the assimilated minorities like Vlach people and other Balkan tribes.

Eastern European like Y-dna haplogroups in Greece in the North reaches even 40% and that's not a surprise just see it's next to Bulgaria and Macedonia.

 

[Kingslav]

Modern Greek dna are largely descended from Neolithic Anatolian farmers, that's about 50%+ of their genetic make up. Mainland Greeks score higher Yamnaya and EHG related ancestry this can be verified by both autosomal and Y-dna haplogroups.
Neolithic samples from Greece are closely related to Early Neolithic Farmers and modern Sardinians even, but less to to modern Continental European populations. I believe Minoans were a Anatolia Chalcolithic related population and closely related to Troyans, Etruscans and Luwinians. We still don't have autosomal results from there but that's the closest possibility.
Ancient Greek tribes moved from Northward to Greece and they could have brought a Yamnaya like admixture and mix with the local Neolithic Farmers and created the Greek population or the other explanation is that the input of Yamnaya admixture came with the Slavic expansions from North and the assimilated minorities like Vlach people and other Balkan tribes.

Eastern European like Y-dna haplogroups in Greece in the North reaches even 40% and that's not a surprise just see it's next to Bulgaria and Macedonia.

We assimilated the Anatolian farmers, they not assimilate us, Indo-Europeans invaded this territory in 5th Century AD.

 

[blevins13]

Simon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symon_Semeonis

Goranjie or Torbesh are the muslim Slavs of Albania

and no it is not supremacy of Greeks or Albanians

but forced assimilation,

Remember Kastrioti and Vallavan Pasha days
and watch today.

My argument here was that whoever went or occupied china became Chinese, this is valid for Greece as well...considering history, assimilation of other people's from Albanians are rare or not existent.


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[noman]

What was the Y DNA haplogroup of ALexander The Great? I read an article that his father's tomb was found.

 

[LeBrok]

We assimilated the Anatolian farmers, they not assimilate us, Indo-Europeans invaded this territory in 5th Century AD.

Are you going for "alternative truth" now? IE were in Anatolia since 1,600 BC, at least.
Secondly, at least half of your DNA is from assimilated farmers and WHGs, if not more. You represent conquerors and conquered at the same time. Thirdly, there is not much of original IE culture left in you to feel proud of "being" one. You dress differently, you changed their religion, culture, way of life, music, tribal laws, etc. You have nothing in common with them except few simple words that maybe they could understand, with difficulty.
Oh, one more thing. Your Y-DNA was probably assimilated by IE.

 

[Angela]

We assimilated the Anatolian farmers, they not assimilate us, Indo-Europeans invaded this territory in 5th Century AD.

What are you doing posting on a genetics thread when you don't know anything about population genetics? Have you read any of the genetics papers of the last five years?

The Anatolian farmers weren't very big on mingling with the WHG they encountered, taking on barely a few percent. It took 2,000 years for MN people to pick up a grand total of perhaps 25% of hunter-gatherer ancestry. By the time the Indo-Europeans arrived, they had CHG, also known as Caucasus ancestry, as well as some farmer ancestry of their own. People around the current area of Hungary have been tested and are between 50-55% "farmer" at least. Also, as LeBrok has pointed out, the Indo-Europeans reached these areas in the Bronze Age.

Where have you been?

Stop embarrassing yourself, and do some reading before you post..

 

[Leka]

The truth is that Tosk Albanians are very close to the Greeks and practically overlap with mainland Greece. In a similar way Tosk Albanians are closer to mainland Greeks than to Ghegh Albanians, who in their own respect are not too far off from other Albanians and Greeks in general. We can not draw conclusions from this. Or rather, I think you misrepresent this fact to make a claim that somehow mainland Greeks changed towards a certain direction. In fact, it is highly likely that what is today Albania may well have been genetically indistinguishable from mainland Greece already in antiquity. A somewhat different example, mainland Greeks plot closer to Italians from Tuscany than to Cretans and Cypriots. Do you suppose that mainland Greeks are Tuscans? Ofcourse not.

I don't think that's the case, and I would like to see you support your statement regarding Tosk/Gheg differences with something concrete. There are of course outliers, but vast majority of Tosks don't differ much from Ghegs, and most certainly they aren't any closer to pure Greeks or the islanders where there isn't any substantial Arvanit influence. As was J2b2 broken down further up in this thread, similar situation seems also to be the case with our other major clusters, especially with R1b-BY611, V13-L241, V13-CTS9320 and perhaps few other clusters that we haven't SNP identified yet (judging by STRs).