Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

I think you are mistaken, the figure 24% in Calabria, was it perhaps written as R1*(xR1a1) and not R1a?

nope pure R1a
the R1a1* is later
simply it is difficult to define that this or that is primary or major,
Both are connected with ancient Greek History,
but R1b has also some connection with Venice times, but not that big,
 
zanipolo wrote, 'Crete has a relatively high frequency of U152+ given its distance from Italy/France.'

Cretan 152+ matches closely to Scottish U152+. No resemblance with Italy or France. More importantly, Calabrian Greeks who are unrelated to your alleged 50 000 Venetian migrants also have this same U152+ found on Crete. Your 'sestieri' comment only proves that Australia's son is unhealthy.

Your have clearly not read my post , because if you did then you will realise that i did not write this , but was part of the link i presented. Clearly you have some form of nationaltic issues which prevent you from finding the truth.
 
Venetians "owned" crete for nearly 500 years, it was the only colony they used the venice system , that is 6 districts ( sestieri)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Candia

with over 50000 veneti migrating to crete over time, i would say that u-152 in crete come from this.

- Crete has a relatively high frequency, especially given its distance from Italy/France. The best explanation is for the high frequency is that it was a possession of the maritime Republic of Venice for nearly five centuries.
from this link
http://www.u152.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5%3Adeeper-look-myres-and-cruciani-studies&catid=1%3Alatest-news&Itemid=1


Zanipolo I agree with you in one condition

that U-152 has an extra sum from enetocracy times,
a possible R1b that added in the already existed,
remember that Ionians Greeks from minor asia (not Ionic pelagos) have also significant R1b and where not in Enetocracy,

an extra R1b from venice times is possible enough to raise R1b in Crete (candia) and some other places
But Venician were mostly elit people, Merchants or land owner who either were semi cut from local society, either hire the lands in locals,
Venice had Libro d' oro so a possible big mix would not be accepted by Venice Don's
But indeed in some area where venice was we do found an additional R1b

on the other hand do not believe every greek that say he was from Venice,
some people in order to prove VIP create myths
I believe an about 2-4 % on areas added to R1b,

At enetocracy it was more easy for Greeks to move west than venician to come to greece as big Devastation,
Although from the time literature and some churches we do find small communities of elit in some places,

50 000 is big number that time,
when today crete has 350 000
50 000 that time is huge number,
By chania when I visited the Catholic were the most 4 000 in the biggest Venetian community before 1760 considering that Venitians were at ports and big castles and forcetas (small arsenal towers)
that number should not be bigger than 15-20 000
Besides many venician left greece after 1790 and Orlov's revolt,

Venice was a market for Greeks,
Venicians were an elit class mainly that certify that local production would be sold,
and that Greek navy and army will get paid,
if you read the case of Crocodilos Kladas you understand,

to understand the difference, Aromani still speak a latino-roman dialect from ancient times, while Venice areas do not,
if 50 000 moved to crete means that Chania would have 15-20 000 Venicians that time,
BIG NUMBER!!!

just think that crete that times should have about 150 000 pop
an extra 50 000 makes 25% of modern pop,
that means 25% should have Italian as mother language,
well not even 4-5 did at 1860
 
Zanipolo I agree with you in one condition

that U-152 has an extra sum from enetocracy times,
a possible R1b that added in the already existed,
remember that Ionians Greeks from minor asia (not Ionic pelagos) have also significant R1b and where not in Enetocracy,

an extra R1b from venice times is possible enough to raise R1b in Crete (candia) and some other places
But Venician were mostly elit people, Merchants or land owner who either were semi cut from local society, either hire the lands in locals,
Venice had Libro d' oro so a possible big mix would not be accepted by Venice Don's
But indeed in some area where venice was we do found an additional R1b

on the other hand do not believe every greek that say he was from Venice,
some people in order to prove VIP create myths
I believe an about 2-4 % on areas added to R1b,

At enetocracy it was more easy for Greeks to move west than venician to come to greece as big Devastation,
Although from the time literature and some churches we do find small communities of elit in some places,

50 000 is big number that time,
when today crete has 350 000
50 000 that time is huge number,
By chania when I visited the Catholic were the most 4 000 in the biggest Venetian community before 1760 considering that Venitians were at ports and big castles and forcetas (small arsenal towers)
that number should not be bigger than 15-20 000
Besides many venician left greece after 1790 and Orlov's revolt,

Venice was a market for Greeks,
Venicians were an elit class mainly that certify that local production would be sold,
and that Greek navy and army will get paid,
if you read the case of Crocodilos Kladas you understand,

to understand the difference, Aromani still speak a latino-roman dialect from ancient times, while Venice areas do not,
if 50 000 moved to crete means that Chania would have 15-20 000 Venicians that time,
BIG NUMBER!!!

The article says france/italy, the france part could be the franks from the crusades. As the franks "owned" the morea ( pelopenesse ) and franks settled there and later when Venice owned areas of the morea, they migrated many people to crete for work. ( some say 8000 ) maybe you can check if the frankish u152 is similar. As for the veneti in crete, 80% returned at the time of the goritizia war ( uskok war ) ( 1614-1618) with Austria, because it was the first time in history that Venice deployed their militia from the mainland, since spain cut off the mercenary supply for Venice for that war, the saxons, brunswicks and lorraine troops, the veneti militia was used. ............BTW, 6000 dutch and 1000 english troops arrived to help venice to prevent an austrian victory.

So , I will agree with you as i do not know, I only presented the article from the u152.org site
 
The article says france/italy, the france part could be the franks from the crusades. As the franks "owned" the morea ( pelopenesse ) and franks settled there and later when Venice owned areas of the morea, they migrated many people to crete for work. ( some say 8000 ) maybe you can check if the frankish u152 is similar. As for the veneti in crete, 80% returned at the time of the goritizia war ( uskok war ) ( 1614-1618) with Austria, because it was the first time in history that Venice deployed their militia from the mainland, since spain cut off the mercenary supply for Venice for that war, the saxons, brunswicks and lorraine troops, the veneti militia was used. ............BTW, 6000 dutch and 1000 english troops arrived to help venice to prevent an austrian victory.

So , I will agree with you as i do not know, I only presented the article from the u152.org site


The Venician connection with Greeks mostly was a small community of merchants and land owners who bought Greek products, and hire Greeks to secure ports and do their wars,
that is why I don't believe in big Devastation, except 2 major areas Corfu and Chania

Now about Franks and Katalans it is about same, only they brought armies that soon moved back or dissapear,
remember the case of Arvanites is cause a latin ruler hired 4 000 warriors and few 000 farmers with their families and gave them land in order to serve his army,
on the other hand the quite big army and legacy of Boniface and some others just vanish leaving behind a castle and 2-3 villages
so in my area where the castle is, we know and can estimate the % by the toponyms, family names, linguistic remnants etc,
and while in local area (municipal) is about 70% in territory area is about 2-3% (2500-3500/120-130 000)

Now considering that All these dwell near sea or infront, about 0,4-0,5 pop of Greece and not in inland mountain areas Yes I agree that 1% max 2% of Greek pop is from crusaders times
while considering the aromani is about 4-6% of pop
But when someone lives more than 2000 years in an area is n't he native

But have you thought how many greeks moved west from 1200 to 1600?

just visit nearby Trieste (Tergest) and read the history of City, and come to Greece and visit the 2 villages from Greeks of Tyrol, about 3500 return from Tyrol at 1860 and 1912
and I am not talking about the rest of Europe,
In Thessaloniki there is area new Helvetia from Greeks that returned from there after 1916 counting 5 000 that time,
 
The Venician connection with Greeks mostly was a small community of merchants and land owners who bought Greek products, and hire Greeks to secure ports and do their wars,
that is why I don't believe in big Devastation, except 2 major areas Corfu and Chania

Now about Franks and Katalans it is about same, only they brought armies that soon moved back or dissapear,
remember the case of Arvanites is cause a latin ruler hired 4 000 warriors and few 000 farmers with their families and gave them land in order to serve his army,
on the other hand the quite big army and legacy of Boniface and some others just vanish leaving behind a castle and 2-3 villages
so in my area where the castle is, we know and can estimate the % by the toponyms, family names, linguistic remnants etc,
and while in local area (municipal) is about 70% in territory area is about 2-3% (2500-3500/120-130 000)

Now considering that All these dwell near sea or infront, about 0,4-0,5 pop of Greece and not in inland mountain areas Yes I agree that 1% max 2% of Greek pop is from crusaders times
while considering the aromani is about 4-6% of pop

Maybe you can find something in here
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LATIN LORDSHIPS IN GREECE.htm#_Toc219779590

or
Irrespective of what the ultimate origin of R-U152 is, it provides us with a good
diagnostic marker for population movements out of the French-Italian area. In Italy for
example it is noted at 26.6% for the north and 10.5% in the south. It would be extremely
interesting to see its occurrence in Balkan Vlachs, as this would confirm/disprove the
Italian component in their origin. However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans,
suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-
century period of Venetian rule of the island. It also occurs in 4.1% of Greeks, where it
might come from any period since the Roman annexation of the Hellenistic states to the
Vlachs.
from this link
http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

or
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08/r1b-founder-effect-in-central-and.html

You could be correct because the Veneto area has only 40% R1b marker today ( maybe it was different in the past)
What is your theory on this marker in crete?
 
Maybe you can find something in here
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LATIN%20LORDSHIPS%20IN%20GREECE.htm#_Toc219779590

or
Irrespective of what the ultimate origin of R-U152 is, it provides us with a good
diagnostic marker for population movements out of the French-Italian area. In Italy for
example it is noted at 26.6% for the north and 10.5% in the south. It would be extremely
interesting to see its occurrence in Balkan Vlachs, as this would confirm/disprove the
Italian component in their origin. However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans,
suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-
century period of Venetian rule of the island. It also occurs in 4.1% of Greeks, where it
might come from any period since the Roman annexation of the Hellenistic states to the
Vlachs.
from this link
http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

or
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08/r1b-founder-effect-in-central-and.html

You could be correct because the Veneto area has only 40% R1b marker today ( maybe it was different in the past)
What is your theory on this marker in crete?

well do not believe all titles,
for example in Spain lives a Noble that still has the title of Byzantine emperror,
for example the case of Monferat (boniface) shows us that title give prestige so many want to create,

now about crete it depends on spot areas,
Krigging methods gives maps so to understand spots,

so the secure and correct is to search the spot, the village and its History, and then to make conclusions,
but I believe that R1b in some areas, including Crete is added at enetocracy times,
a 2-3 % of population with 40% R1b gives an extra 1-1.5% R1b
which I believe is correct
Besides I have to look at King for the R1b of Smyrna people, which have enough, and Crete had connection with Smyrna,

But I believe that a 1-2% of R1b is added after 1200 AD in crete

But where U-152+ has its founder effect?
from there you find the secret
the founder effect area is key to devastations,
 
nope pure R1a
the R1a1* is later
simply it is difficult to define that this or that is primary or major,
Both are connected with ancient Greek History,
but R1b has also some connection with Venice times, but not that big,

Old studies write R1*(xR1a1) which actually refers to R1b. Not R1a!
 
well do not believe all titles,
for example in Spain lives a Noble that still has the title of Byzantine emperror,
for example the case of Monferat (boniface) shows us that title give prestige so many want to create,

now about crete it depends on spot areas,
Krigging methods gives maps so to understand spots,

so the secure and correct is to search the spot, the village and its History, and then to make conclusions,
but I believe that R1b in some areas, including Crete is added at enetocracy times,
a 2-3 % of population with 40% R1b gives an extra 1-1.5% R1b
which I believe is correct
Besides I have to look at King for the R1b of Smyrna people, which have enough, and Crete had connection with Smyrna,

But I believe that a 1-2% of R1b is added after 1200 AD in crete

But where U-152+ has its founder effect?
from there you find the secret
the founder effect area is key to devastations,

You are correct about searching the spot where Cretan U152+ is predominantly found. On Crete it is where the Venetians did not live. These pockets in the Lasithi Plateau and Sfakia (Apokorona) Highlands were vehemently opposed to Venetian rule. You need to read about the revolts and study the difference between Cretan Highlanders and Cretan Lowlanders. It took thousands of years to bring R1a to around 5% in these villages, how is it possible that in 400yrs you will find between 5-7% U152+ in these very hard-to-reach parts of Crete and the Peloponnese?
 
Venetians were not rural villagers, then there is the suspicious nature of the Greek Orthodox towards the Latin Church. The wealthy Greeks and Venetians intermarried but this population lived in town (chora), not in the rural peasant population. People do not mix with other cultures when they are illiterate, poor and live in isolation.
 
You are correct about searching the spot where Cretan U152+ is predominantly found. On Crete it is where the Venetians did not live. These pockets in the Lasithi Plateau and Sfakia (Apokorona) Highlands were vehemently opposed to Venetian rule. You need to read about the revolts and study the difference between Cretan Highlanders and Cretan Lowlanders. It took thousands of years to bring R1a to around 5% in these villages, how is it possible that in 400yrs you will find between 5-7% U152+ in these very hard-to-reach parts of Crete and the Peloponnese?

I agree, but that low intermix which may allied the Cretans at 1860 might be 2-4% of Crete meaning that a 1-2% of U-152 is added in the already existed R1b before Venice,
 
allied the Cretans at 1860 might be 2-4% of Crete
The Venetian Republic ended in 1797, not sure what alliance you are referring to here.
Anyhow, a 2-4% representation throughout an entire rural population cannot occur within the time-frame you are proposing.

meaning that a 1-2% of U-152 is added in the already existed R1b before Venice

Again, 1-2% increase in the entire rural population, your argument may have had merit if the 1-2% increase was only found in the towns where the Venetians had lived, but this is not the case.

Think of it in terms of a survey, if you want a representative sample you will need to survey people from rural and urban centers. Most Venetians if not all were concentrated around the burgo or castello. They did not frequent the interior rural settlements and definitely did not have intimate relations with the villagers.
 
nope it says R1a I am sure about that,

and i think it is mostly R1a1a

Could you post the full details of the paper, if it does say R1a of 24% in Calabria then this is very significant and needs to be discussed further. A link to the article would be great.
 

HG1 = R1b
HG2 = I
HG3 = R1a [known for a brief period as HG2]

The old system of classifying haplogroups confuses many people.

Scozzari et al. (2001) found 21.1% R1b (HG1) and 10.5% R1a (HG3) in Calabria.

You can confirm this by looking at the figures for Sardinia where HG2 (I) predominates with very high frequencies. This study found 10% R1a in Calabria which has never been duplicated, questioning the reliability of this study.
 
HG1 = R1b
HG2 = I
HG3 = R1a [known for a brief period as HG2]

The old system of classifying haplogroups confuses many people.

Scozzari et al. (2001) found 21.1% R1b (HG1) and 10.5% R1a (HG3) in Calabria.

You can confirm this by looking at the figures for Sardinia where HG2 (I) predominates with very high frequencies. This study found 10% R1a in Calabria which has never been duplicated, questioning the reliability of this study.


are you sure it is not the oposite?
 
But I like your division for the other regions, so I will use it for the Y-DNA frequency tables on Eupedia.


The problem is that the samples over-represent Crete (5%) of the population taking 20% of the samples (creating a 4x inflation)

And it underrepresented Central Greece-Epirus a bigger population center, yet only represented by 12.5% of the samples (creating a minimum 3x defect)

This will influence the the overall accuracy of the frequencies where the contrast is highest in both regions.

Highest contrast: E1b1b samples the highest at 31.5% in C. Greece & lowest in Crete E1b1b 8.8%, this alone moves E1b1b at least 5%, because it effected the frequencies of other regions that are much higher than 8.8%, especially that none of the sample had 45% peak samples, to reduce the 8.8% in Crete!

E1b1b (+5) ------------26%

Moderate contrast: R1b is the lowest in Central Greece at 10.2% & slightly above average in Crete at 17.1%, this sampling disparity should be represented by a 1.5% point adjustment
R1b (-1.5) ------------ 14%

J2, J1 & G2 also peak in Greece, but those have moderate effect
J2 (-2) --------------- 21%
J1 composite was 5% goes down to 3% (which is already there)
G2 (-0.5)------------ 6.5%

LT is 4.5% on the table, but all studies samples are under 4%, so it should be
LT (-1)----------------3.5%
 
Where do Greeks get all their R1a from? Was it the Dorians, Ionians, etc? Or more ancient IE migrations?
 

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