New I1 map

in a survey about Y DNA in germanic-sepaking Belgium, I red:
Y-I1:
minimum: Limburg: 5,7% (small sample: nb: 70)
more often, between 11,2% in Western Antwerpen (nb: 80) and 21,2% in Oost-Antwerpen-Kempen (nb: 86) - in ~middle: 15,7% in West Vlanderen (nb: 141)
total dutch speaking Belgium: I1 = 13,3% (nb 695: serious enough)
I recall East England shows some regions about 25 to 33% of Y-I1

There might be some more information on this after the y-dna results of the POBI project are all sorted out (which might be some time). They also used many mainland European samples too (a couple of thousand or more?) - including from France, Belgium and the Netherlands - so if they split it up by region as they probably will with the British samples, this will give even more figures to play with.
 
How can this be true when the author itself is Sardinian?

Well, it kind of suggests itself. The author makes incomprehensible claims that make only sense if one has the foregone conclusion that the Nuragic civilization must be originating from Illyria. The claim is additionally outlandish because there's plenty of genetic evidence linking Sardinia and the Neolithic:


- modern Sardinians have a mixture of mainly G2a and I2, a composition which has also been found at Treilles.


- Ötzi was a bearer of G2a, and amongst modern populations, he plots autosomally closest to Sardinians.


- Sardinian I2 is almost exclusively I2a1a (M26), which outside of Sardinian is chiefly found in continental western Europe (notably the Basques), and not I2a1b (M423), which is dominant on the Balkans.


In summary, from the genetic perspective, all of this traces back into the Neolithic, and nothing points towards a connection with the Balkans. This is complemented by archaeology (one should call to mind that the Talaiotic and Torrean cultures existed on the Balearic Isles and on Corsica, respectively, and this was contemporary to the Nuragic culture of Sardinia). Also, Albanian (regardless of wether it is descended from Illyrian or not) is an Indo-European language, whereas the Paleo-Sardinian language (or languages) certainly wasn't.
 
Yes, Haplogroup I1 itself appears to be Chalcolithic in age, even though Haplogroup I as a whole is probably Mesolithic in age (we know that I2a was present in the Neolithic in the Atlantic region, thereby making Haplogoup I a probably candidate for a Mesolithic European haplogroup). From this perspective, it would seem most plausible that I1 is essentially a single surviving male lineage that coincidentially survived inside a population of otherwise Chalcolithic newcomers. The case for this discontinuity can also be made elsewhere.

The question is, can the spread of Haplogroup I be solely explained by the migrations period and by the spread of the Germanic peoples? Even though without a doubt the Haplogroup was spread by the Germanic peoples, I'm not quite convinced that the distribution pattern we see can be solely explained by this. In particular, there is a significant percentage amongst the Finnic peoples which in my opinion can not be explained solely through interaction with the Vikings (we are talking about some of the highest frequencies of the Haplogroup here, after all). Another issue is the surprisingly high concentrations in the Atlantic region, especially in Ireland, Wales and on the Iberian pennsula. While it would be possible to attribute this to the Vikings (in Ireland) and the Suebi (in Galicia), I would ask the question if it is possible that there a small Celtic component to Haplogroup I1 as well. Specifically, if Haplogroup I1 was already present in Central Europe by the start of the iron age, and subsequently spread with the Hallstatt and La-Tene Cultures, this would better explain some of the distribution patterns we see in the Atlantic region (as well as in some other areas, such as along the Danube), rather than if we solely assume a spread by the Germanic peoples during the Migration Period.

The reason I ask this is because the distribution in Iberia corresponds better with the maximum extend of Celtic influence on the Iberian penninsula (3rd century BC) than it does with Germanic influence (the Suebi are often cited as the source of I1 in Iberia). However, what about the Visigoths, why were they not such significant bearers of I1 if the Suebi were?

"The question is, can the spread of Haplogroup I be solely explained by the migrations period and by the spread of the Germanic peoples? ...Another issue is the surprisingly high concentrations in the Atlantic region, especially in Ireland, Wales and on the Iberian pennsula."

I don't think I1 is Germanic exactly. I think I represents people descended from those Mesolithic foragers who managed the transition to farming before being swamped by the farmers hence lots of small hotspots of I in remote and/or mountainous regions. I1 appears to correlate more with Germanic because the later German expansions spread one of those hotspots like a glacier taking stones from one region and moving them hundreds of miles away.
 
I don't think I1 is Germanic exactly. I think I represents people descended from those Mesolithic foragers who managed the transition to farming before being swamped by the farmers hence lots of small hotspots of I in remote and/or mountainous regions. I1 appears to correlate more with Germanic because the later German expansions spread one of those hotspots like a glacier taking stones from one region and moving them hundreds of miles away.

It's not mutually exclusive, though, that's the point. I think the consensus is that I1 is descended from Mesolithic foragers and that it was spread mainly (but not quite exclusively) by Germanic language speakers later on. So you're agreeing with most other hypothesizers there.

One thing I disagree with is your idea that modern frequency distributions indicate much of anything about Haplogroup I's ancient past. It's tempting to see it as evidence of Haplogroup I being holdouts in places like Finland, Sardinia, and Dinaric Alps, but the fact is that the dominant subclade in many of these places show signs of expansion from elsewhere long after the introduction of farming. More useful is probably diversity analyses, but those tend to show high Haplogroup I diversity in places like the Rhine, which is not really a hideout. I think the closest we can come to hypothesizing about geographical hideouts is in how I2-M423, I2-M223, and probably I1 have apparently relatively northern affinities, and were more successful later on compared to Central/Southern European clades like I2-L38, I2b-L415, and I2c-L596. That could show that even though the greatest number of Haplogroup I descendants before expansions from the north lived in Central/Southern Europe, the northerners tended to have greater Haplogroup I frequencies.
 
More useful is probably diversity analyses, but those tend to show high Haplogroup I diversity in places like the Rhine, which is not really a hideout. I think the closest we can come to hypothesizing about geographical hideouts is in how I2-M423, I2-M223, and probably I1 have apparently relatively northern affinities, and were more successful later on compared to Central/Southern European clades like I2-L38, I2b-L415, and I2c-L596. That could show that even though the greatest number of Haplogroup I descendants before expansions from the north lived in Central/Southern Europe, the northerners tended to have greater Haplogroup I frequencies.

Where exactly along the Rhine would that be? Do you have links to information about that?
 
More useful is probably diversity analyses, but those tend to show high Haplogroup I diversity in places like the Rhine, which is not really a hideout.

Where exactly along the Rhine would that be? Do you have links to information about that?

O. I already found something. This doesn't seem like a thoroughly peer reviewed paper, but hey... It's something. It would be colossally interesting since the region where haplogroup I is supposed to have originated according to this map is the same region we discussed before. Once with regard to this thread, where it already is explained that the region is a crossroads for Central and Northwest European cultures. One of my first posts here was because I noticed something odd on the map of I2b: That part of it's distribution seemed coincide with the Suevians. Also the area is where R1b is found in a Bell Beaker burial. And the area a paper (Brandt) saw a reflux coming from Scandinavia, as discussed here.

http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/

y-Haplogroup_I1_Migration_Routes.jpg
 
It's not mutually exclusive, though, that's the point. I think the consensus is that I1 is descended from Mesolithic foragers and that it was spread mainly (but not quite exclusively) by Germanic language speakers later on. So you're agreeing with most other hypothesizers there.

One thing I disagree with is your idea that modern frequency distributions indicate much of anything about Haplogroup I's ancient past. It's tempting to see it as evidence of Haplogroup I being holdouts in places like Finland, Sardinia, and Dinaric Alps, but the fact is that the dominant subclade in many of these places show signs of expansion from elsewhere long after the introduction of farming. More useful is probably diversity analyses, but those tend to show high Haplogroup I diversity in places like the Rhine, which is not really a hideout. I think the closest we can come to hypothesizing about geographical hideouts is in how I2-M423, I2-M223, and probably I1 have apparently relatively northern affinities, and were more successful later on compared to Central/Southern European clades like I2-L38, I2b-L415, and I2c-L596. That could show that even though the greatest number of Haplogroup I descendants before expansions from the north lived in Central/Southern Europe, the northerners tended to have greater Haplogroup I frequencies.

many subclades of I seem to have split just after the youngest dryas, when Europe was becoming forested again
their expansion times are often 4-6000 years ago, which is after the arrival of the first farmers, more the time IE folks started to expand from the Pontic steppe
 
Where exactly along the Rhine would that be? Do you have links to information about that?

That's an observation I made about Haplogroup I subclades back when I made my Paleolithic Remnants map. That map is now a bit outdated--for example, C-V20 has been shown to be a Paleolithic remnant as well, the location of I1 may be a bit east of where I have it, the location of I2a-Din may be a bit to the west, etc. But the cluster of Haplogroup I diversity close to the Rhine still seems to hold. I2-L38, I2c-PF3881, I2a1c, etc. are all old subclades having high diversity there. Where on the Rhine they tend to be depends on the subclade.
 
many subclades of I seem to have split just after the youngest dryas, when Europe was becoming forested again
their expansion times are often 4-6000 years ago, which is after the arrival of the first farmers, more the time IE folks started to expand from the Pontic steppe

The range of expansion dates is sort of bizarre, and indicates multiple times over a long period when tiny minorities had major expansions. These range from the Neolithic expansion of I2-M26 to the barely 2000 year old clades like I2a-Din.
 
The range of expansion dates is sort of bizarre, and indicates multiple times over a long period when tiny minorities had major expansions. These range from the Neolithic expansion of I2-M26 to the barely 2000 year old clades like I2a-Din.

In terms of how old I1 is and how old any particular subclades are, I find it interesting (and a bit confusing) to look at the Sami. Their mtDNA is almost all U5b or V, also found among the Berbers and assumed to be Mesolithic, and I1 is the second most common Y haplotype. But the most common Y haplotype is N1c, which seems to be from Asia. So one would think that, if it's correct that the Sami first expanded northward and eventually into the northern parts of Scandinavia from a Franco-Iberian refugium they left just after the last glacial maximum, they would originally have consisted of mtDNA U5b and V and Y haplotype I1, with the N1c maybe arriving later from Asia. But it seems to me that I1 is just a bit too young to fit into that schedule if it's as recent as it appears to be. So, did I1 originally evolve from an isolated population of I* along the Rhine, arriving in Scandinavia some what later than has been assumed?

The alternative would seem to be that I1 isn't quite as young as it appears to be.

Edit: I should have said, for the sake of clarity, that the Sami are considered by archeologists to be connected to the Komsa culture that was in Scandinavia at least 10,000 years BP.
 
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It's not mutually exclusive, though, that's the point. I think the consensus is that I1 is descended from Mesolithic foragers and that it was spread mainly (but not quite exclusively) by Germanic language speakers later on. So you're agreeing with most other hypothesizers there.

One thing I disagree with is your idea that modern frequency distributions indicate much of anything about Haplogroup I's ancient past. It's tempting to see it as evidence of Haplogroup I being holdouts in places like Finland, Sardinia, and Dinaric Alps, but the fact is that the dominant subclade in many of these places show signs of expansion from elsewhere long after the introduction of farming. More useful is probably diversity analyses, but those tend to show high Haplogroup I diversity in places like the Rhine, which is not really a hideout. I think the closest we can come to hypothesizing about geographical hideouts is in how I2-M423, I2-M223, and probably I1 have apparently relatively northern affinities, and were more successful later on compared to Central/Southern European clades like I2-L38, I2b-L415, and I2c-L596. That could show that even though the greatest number of Haplogroup I descendants before expansions from the north lived in Central/Southern Europe, the northerners tended to have greater Haplogroup I frequencies.

Yes, I agree it's not exclusive. I'm thinking more if you could extract later expansions e.g. Germanic, you'd have a map of little clusters.

(edit: The reason I mentioned it is I've heard I=Germanic in various other places.)

"It's tempting to see it as evidence of Haplogroup I being holdouts in places like Finland, Sardinia, and Dinaric Alps"

Sure, it's just a thought and may not be exclusive for the same reason as above but some of the clusters might represent that.

"The range of expansion dates is sort of bizarre, and indicates multiple times over a long period when tiny minorities had major expansions. These range from the Neolithic expansion of I2-M26 to the barely 2000 year old clades like I2a-Din."

That's what makes me wonder. Could those dates represent first contact?

For example, from more recent history we know what can potentially happen when farmers with domesticated animals and the diseases they got from domesticated animals come into contact with foragers: a major bottleneck as the forager population is first flattened by disease and then rebuilds from the survivors.

If that is what happened then the age of these various I sub clades might represent the time that particular group came into contact.
 
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My haplogroup is I1, which matches genealogy, g grandfather from central Sweden. Three generations of I1 males before me had coal black hair.
 
I'm I1 from Bosnia and nice to see the eastern part of it is colored darker, that's where my grandfather is from.
 
I have really dark hair too. Although you being from Sweden obviously it's more unusual I guess.
 
I have really dark hair too. Although you being from Sweden obviously it's more unusual I guess.
Your Y chromosome only accounts for about 2% of your DNA so if you have a Swedish Viking ancestor from 1000 years ago there is plenty of time for your hair to darken as your paternal ancestor mixed with the local population over 1000 years. How tall are you? I've read that haplogroup I tends to be the tallest in the world. I'm 6 foot 5 inches tall.
 
I'm pretty average height 5'10-5'11
Ironically my dad is shorter about the same height as my mom.
Don't know how tall my grandfather was, I never met him he died before I was born and my parents divorced when I was 2 so I don't really know much about my gf. But I heard he was a very respected man in the village/small town he came from. My dad also very intelligent guy, finished law school but was a major alcoholic.
 
Your Y chromosome only accounts for about 2% of your DNA so if you have a Swedish Viking ancestor from 1000 years ago there is plenty of time for your hair to darken as your paternal ancestor mixed with the local population over 1000 years. How tall are you? I've read that haplogroup I tends to be the tallest in the world. I'm 6 foot 5 inches tall.

That's an interesting stat. I'm tall myself but the next few paternal ancestors back weren't, and a couple of my father's brothers were below average height.
 
Swedish Haplogroup Database allows review by region and it shows a bit different distribution compared to the Eupedia map.
Namely the highest I1 frequencies in Sweden (and in the World) at approximately 55% are recorded in the Eastern Götaland.

Eupedia map shows highest frequencies around the lake Vänern and according to the SHD frequencies of I1 drop to 35-40% in that area. Also the highlighted area around Oslo in Norway should not have more than 40% of I1.
 
Swedish Haplogroup Database allows review by region and it shows a bit different distribution compared to the Eupedia map.
Namely the highest I1 frequencies in Sweden (and in the World) at approximately 55% are recorded in the Eastern Götaland.

Eupedia map shows highest frequencies around the lake Vänern and according to the SHD frequencies of I1 drop to 35-40% in that area. Also the highlighted area around Oslo in Norway should not have more than 40% of I1.

I didn't know this site. Note that their map is using only about 800 samples, against 2200 for Eupedia.
 
Your Y chromosome only accounts for about 2% of your DNA so if you have a Swedish Viking ancestor from 1000 years ago there is plenty of time for your hair to darken as your paternal ancestor mixed with the local population over 1000 years. How tall are you? I've read that haplogroup I tends to be the tallest in the world. I'm 6 foot 5 inches tall.

I highly doubt Y-DNA has much to do with height. I'm around the same height as my father (and my maternal grandfather), but anyone before my father was MUCH shorter than me. Height probably has more to do with the DNA that is not Y-DNA or mtDNA and more to do with the autosomal DNA.
 

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