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Thread: New I2b map

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    Arrow New I2b map



    I have finally got round to creating a map of I2b. The frequencies being low in most of Europe I had to use a very fine scale, with gradient of 2% at a time. Sadly there isn't any extensive study of German and Swedish regions, so the extend of the two hotspots of I2b is far from accurate.

    In Belgium, let's note that Wallonia has 7% of I2b, considerably more than the 4.5% in Flanders. It's strange since Flanders is supposed to be more Germanic, and the percentage of I1 doesn't vary much between the two regions (12% in Flanders and 11% in Wallonia).




    There are many theories concerning the presence of I2b in Russia, Ukraine and Moldova.

    1) They are remnants of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers.

    2) I2b was part of the Indo-European haplogroups, and some pockets have survived around the Pontic-Caspian steppes.

    3) The (Swedish) Vikings brought I2b to Russia, and the Ostrogoths to Moldova (Chernyakhov culture, which corresponds to the Gothic kingdom of Oium).

    Personally I think that the third theory is the most likely. As for the I2b in around Greece, Albania, Bulgaria and northern Turkey, they must have been brought by the Visigoths at the end of the 4th century. The Visigoths would also explain I2b in Italy, south-east France and Iberia. Note that these regions all have a fairly proportional level of I1 too. Obviously the Suebi are responsible for the I1 and I2b (and R1b-U106 and R1a) in Galicia and Portugal, and the Normans for the same Germanic package in north-west Sicily.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 22-07-11 at 21:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have finally got round to creating a map of I2b. The frequencies being low in most of Europe I had to use a very fine scale, with gradient of 2% at a time. Sadly there isn't any extensive study of German and Swedish regions, so the extend of the two hotspots of I2b is far from accurate.


    There is a hotspot among Anatolian Greeks of Ionia region (6/89 = 6.7%) but it seems that only Greeks have it and not Turks so your map seems accurate if you take into acount who lives in Ionia nowadays (allthough for some places in Greece there are not any data about this specific subclade like your hotspot around Aetolia/Epirus)

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    Maciamo don't you use the new classification system for haplogroup I where I2b is named I2a2 and ex-I2a2 is named I2a1b?

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    Maciamo don't you use the new classification system for haplogroup I where I2b is named I2a2 and ex-I2a2 is named I2a1b?
    Seconded; although, if Maciamo makes this change, he will need to update a lot of his old stuff accordingly to avoid confusion between current I2b and old I2b, as well as current I2a (and subclades) and old I2a (and subclades).

    Current I2b would not make for a very interesting map, it would be <1% everywhere. I think there are about a half-dozen known families that carry it, most from Italy except one from Germany and one from Scotland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    Maciamo don't you use the new classification system for haplogroup I where I2b is named I2a2 and ex-I2a2 is named I2a1b?
    No, I don't like the new nomenclature. It's confusing so I stick to the old one used everywhere on this site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Sadly there isn't any extensive study of German and Swedish regions, so the extend of the two hotspots of I2b is far from accurate.
    Good work first of all!
    Where do you have the assumption of these hotspots from? And what regions are they roughly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    No, I don't like the new nomenclature. It's confusing so I stick to the old one used everywhere on this site.
    That's an odd attitude. The hierarchical nomenclature is intended to represent the full tree of known SNPs, which in I2 now includes L460 (I2a) and L415/L416/L417 (I2b). The I2b SNPs are certainly non-private, so what do you intend to call the subclade they represent? It's not really a matter of whether you like it or not, it's just the case that there's a new I2b.

    I agree that you should be consistent on your site and that it would be confusing to have only one map of old I2b be "I2a2," but it will be just as confusing if you never make the change, while everyone else does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Seconded; although, if Maciamo makes this change, he will need to update a lot of his old stuff accordingly to avoid confusion between current I2b and old I2b, as well as current I2a (and subclades) and old I2a (and subclades).

    Current I2b would not make for a very interesting map, it would be <1% everywhere. I think there are about a half-dozen known families that carry it, most from Italy except one from Germany and one from Scotland.
    You make sense but I think that the nomenclature should be revized because it gives better knowledge of how haplogroups are connected into the tree...
    For example the new nomenclature of I allows us to place ex-I2c and I2b better because ex-I2b is closer to ex-I2a then ex-I2c is to either of them.
    Anyway I get confused too with all this changing of names and sometimes I use R1b1b2 instead of R1b1a2 so anyone with less knowledge of Y-DNA nomenclature would get really messed up...

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    You make sense but I think that the nomenclature should be revized because it gives better knowledge of how haplogroups are connected into the tree...
    For example the new nomenclature of I allows us to place ex-I2c and I2b better because ex-I2b is closer to ex-I2a then ex-I2c is to either of them.
    Anyway I get confused too with all this changing of names and sometimes I use R1b1b2 instead of R1b1a2 so anyone with less knowledge of Y-DNA nomenclature would get really messed up...
    I agree, I'm already using the new nomenclature in everything for I2. I've pretty much given up with writing the hierarchical form of R1b subclades, though. But I2 is still easy, even with this change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I agree, I'm already using the new nomenclature in everything for I2. I've pretty much given up with writing the hierarchical form of R1b subclades, though. But I2 is still easy, even with this change.
    Yes R1b1a2 is so well studied that includes sub-clades with 10 or 11 charachters used for their name...it is propably because most geneticists come from West Europe or US so they are more interested in R1b and it's sub-clades

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    That's an odd attitude. The hierarchical nomenclature is intended to represent the full tree of known SNPs, which in I2 now includes L460 (I2a) and L415/L416/L417 (I2b). The I2b SNPs are certainly non-private, so what do you intend to call the subclade they represent? It's not really a matter of whether you like it or not, it's just the case that there's a new I2b.

    I agree that you should be consistent on your site and that it would be confusing to have only one map of old I2b be "I2a2," but it will be just as confusing if you never make the change, while everyone else does.
    There will probably be another new nomenclature next year, so why not wait for it before changing everything ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There will probably be another new nomenclature next year, so why not wait for it before changing everything ?
    I guess that using R1b-M269 for R1b1a2 or R1b-L23 for R1b1a2a or R1b-U152 for R1b1a2a1a1b3 or E-V13 for E1b1b1a2 is less confusing for everyone

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    Good work first of all!
    Where do you have the assumption of these hotspots from? And what regions are they roughly?
    I have 3 maps of I2b, which all show the maximum of roughly 15% around the Harz mountains in Germany, but the data I compiled has an average of 7.5% for North Germany, 5% for East Germany and 6.5% for West Germany. Unfortunately I do not have accurate data by state.

    Karlsson et al. 2006 gave 17% of I2b in Västerbotten province in northern Sweden, but no data for the adjacent provinces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There will probably be another new nomenclature next year, so why not wait for it before changing everything ?
    The current instability is in I2* and within current I2a2a. It's looking like there may be some rearranging downstream of I2a2a, and I2* is likely to become I2c. So, I think it's probably safe to start using "I2a2" for old I2b and "I2a1" for old I2a, at least, and probably also quite safe to use "I2a1a," "I2a1b," "I2a2a," and "I2a2b." Next year's tree is looking unlikely to change that on you. But it's true that hierarchical nomenclature changes so frequently that using it on anything that's meant to be permanent is asking for confusion... like, what happens if I2* unexpectedly shares an SNP with I2a rather than I2b? Then, current I2a2 would become I2a1b, and so forth...

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    clearing up the terms visi and ostro goths for this, I recently read a few books on the matter, Goths in ancient Poland being one and it was stated that the term visigoth and ostrogoth was only created only once the Goths settled on the black sea.

    The people where seperated as Visigoth if you where originally from lands west of the vistula river on the baltic sea and ostrogoths if you where east of the vistula river, so ostrogoths where the baltic people of aestii and venedi and germanic people of the peucini and Bastanae and some finni.

    Geberic was succeeded by the most famous of the Gothic kings, Hermanaric (Eormenric, Iormunrekr), whose deeds are recorded in the traditions of all Teutonic nations.
    He conquered the Heruli, the Aestii, the Venedi, and a number of other tribes.


    Since the ostrogoths basically went only as far as the french-italian border in their invasion of the west and the visigoths went into iberia, would there be different markers of I due to this gothic system of seperation.
    Last edited by zanipolo; 23-07-11 at 00:25.

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    Very interesting map, thanks Maciamo.
    I'll go with option 3, explanation of Goths movement.
    The might have originated from the hot spot in north Sweden. From polish archeology we know that Goths landed around year 0 at south shore of Baltic sea. They went rather quickly south to Black Sea. They went through land of Veneti pretty much peacefully. We find Goth's settlements just beside local villages. Same period of time, two cultures side by side.
    By estimates, their march south is took about 150 years. It makes sense from this map that in such short time and peaceful journey they didn't leave genetic trail of their march south. They had spent much longer time at Black sea and this is where they left elevated level of I2b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    Good work first of all!
    Where do you have the assumption of these hotspots from? And what regions are they roughly?
    what I recognise is the epirus area of Greece
    - veneto and friuli of northern italy
    - etruscan lands in middle italy
    - south france, could be the migration of the east germanic burgundians , who settled there for a long time
    vasterbotten IIRC is the northern part of sweden - i think sami people

    and the german area today would be modern saxony, in ancient times it could be the chatti tribe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Personally I think that the third theory is the most likely. As for the I2b in around Greece, Albania, Bulgaria and northern Turkey, they must have been brought by the Visigoths at the end of the 4th century. The Visigoths would also explain I2b in Italy, south-east France and Iberia. Note that these regions all have a fairly proportional level of I1 too. Obviously the Suebi are responsible for the I1 and I2b (and R1b-U106 and R1a) in Galicia and Portugal, and the Normans for the same Germanic package in north-west Sicily.
    I wonder

    Visigoths left so strong marks in Balkans, but not in Spain?

    we know from historical times that visgoths created the kingdoms in spain, the Visgothian era of Iberian peninsula Theudis is a known Visigoth king against Vandals,
    we know they ruled at Spania,
    so I expect that their merks will be stronger than in italy and balkans, especially west,

    On the other hand from Strabo we know that visigoths first map mark is the area of today North Bulgaria south romania, North of Haimos Mt to carpathian Mt which is also low %

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    I wonder

    Visigoths left so strong marks in Balkans, but not in Spain?
    I don't know how to explain that. There is considerable I1 and I2b all the way the Visigoths and Ostrogoths settled, from the Moldova region to the southern Balkans, and from Italy to southern France, but much less in Spain. Perhaps it is that the bulk of the Gothic people remained around the Black Sea and only a relatively small army of elite Visigoths conquered Spain, but were too few to have an impact, or spread out so much around France and Iberia that the percentage they represented in each region was very small. Moldova and Epirus are small, compact areas compared to Iberia + South France.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't know how to explain that. There is considerable I1 and I2b all the way the Visigoths and Ostrogoths settled, from the Moldova region to the southern Balkans, and from Italy to southern France, but much less in Spain. Perhaps it is that the bulk of the Gothic people remained around the Black Sea and only a relatively small army of elite Visigoths conquered Spain, but were too few to have an impact, or spread out so much around France and Iberia that the percentage they represented in each region was very small. Moldova and Epirus are small, compact areas compared to Iberia + South France.
    But this wouldn't explain why autosomally the Iberians have the highest North-European levels of all Southern Europe (see genetic projects such as Dodecad or Eurogenes).

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    I wonder if Magyars are responsible of bringing some I2b to Hungary, and Volga Bulgars spreading some to Balkans. They both supposedly came from the Russian hot spot area.
    I2b is definitely not a Slavic marker.
    It looks younger than Corded Ware Culture. We don't see any correlation with R1a/Corded Ware influence/spread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I wonder if Magyars are responsible of bringing some I2b to Hungary, and Volga Bulgars spreading some to Balkans. They both supposedly came from the Russian hot spot area.
    I2b is definitely not a Slavic marker.
    It looks younger than Corded Ware Culture. We don't see any correlation with R1a/Corded Ware influence/spread.
    Probably not the Magyar, who were surely R1a. I'd say the Gepids, and perhaps later the Germans and Austrians colonising the region under the Habsburg rule.

    I2b in Russia being of Viking origin, it arrived soon after the Magyar established themselves in Hungary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    But this wouldn't explain why autosomally the Iberians have the highest North-European levels of all Southern Europe (see genetic projects such as Dodecad or Eurogenes).
    1) less Near Eastern blood in Spain (especially in the centre and north-east) than in Italy, Greece or the Balkans

    2) The Celts or Proto-Celts, who brought R1b to Iberia, also brought the genes that appear "West/North European" in the Dodecad admixtures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't know how to explain that. There is considerable I1 and I2b all the way the Visigoths and Ostrogoths settled, from the Moldova region to the southern Balkans, and from Italy to southern France, but much less in Spain. Perhaps it is that the bulk of the Gothic people remained around the Black Sea and only a relatively small army of elite Visigoths conquered Spain, but were too few to have an impact, or spread out so much around France and Iberia that the percentage they represented in each region was very small. Moldova and Epirus are small, compact areas compared to Iberia + South France.
    The Visi-Goths didn't settle in Epirus or Aetolia. Nor did they settle in Smyrna or Peloponnese...

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    The Visi-Goths didn't settle in Epirus or Aetolia. Nor did they settle in Smyrna or Peloponnese...
    The Visigoths crossed the Danube into the Roman Empire in 376. They were allowed by the Romans to settled in Thrace in 380 and became foederati, like the Franks in Belgium. Under Theodosius, the Visigoths sacked and settled around Constantinople. Under his successor, Alaric I, ravaged Greece (as far as the Peloponese) in 396 before being driven back to the mountains of northern Greece and Macedonia. Whether some of them stayed behind, or whether they raped local women is unknown, but I2b and I1 had to get there one way or another.

    I believe that one reasonable explanation is that the descendants of the Visigoths who had settled in Thrace dispersed to Macedonia, Greece and North-West Anatolia progressively over time. After all, they had become citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire, so why should they stay in one place when they could seek their fortunes further away within the empire's borders ? Just by marrying/moving from one village/town to the next each generation, the lineages would have dispersed naturally over the centuries. But if that is what happened, we should still expect a higher percentage in Thrace, shouldn't we ? Not necessarily. The Bulgars invaded the region a century later, and are known to have fought the Gothic armies of foederati. It's possible that many Gothic families, sentimentally unattached the the land of Thrace, sought refuge into the relative safety of the mountains of Epirus and Macedonia around that time.

    With a bit of imagination we could come up with several other scenarios. The thing is that countless events went unrecorded in history, and others that were recorded at lost today, especially those from the Antiquity. So we will never know what or how it happened, but the point of population genetics is justly to help us better understand history by looking at what people left behind them, their genes, and try to rediscover what history has forgotten.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 23-07-11 at 21:31.

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