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Thread: Scots, how Celtic are they?

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    Talking Scots, how Celtic are they?



    So i was wondering, based on studies of Haplogroups, is there anyway to determine how Celtic Scotland is? Does anyone have information on this please?

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    Western Scotland was invaded by the Gaels in the Vth century. A people from Ireland who spoke a Q-Celtic language (Gaelic) while the previous people of Scotland (the Picts) spoke a P-Celtic language like others Brittons and like some continental celts (Gaulish, lepontic...).
    Most Scottish men carry the haplogroup R1b (Proto-celt), especially its subclade R1b L21 (like most Irish men)
    Eastern Scotland, the area that was the least settled by the Gaels, shows the highest frequencies in GB of R1b U152 (Alpine and gallic celts) and has significant rates of R1b U106 (Germanic). It is not easy to know wether those two subclades of R1b predate or not the Germanic invasions (Angles...).
    Indeed, Scotland got several genetic influx since the early middle ages, bringing germanic haplogroup such as I1, I2a2 (old I2b), R1a (not just germanic but present in Scandinavia) and R1b U106.
    During the germanic invasions, the Angles settled in Southern Scotland, that's why Scottish language is very close to the English one.
    Later the Vikings from Norway settled in the North, South west and in the islands (Shetlands, Orkney).
    So Scotland is mostly celtic but with strong germanic areas (Lowlands, North, Orkney, Shetlands).

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    Thanks for your reply. How frequent is R1b L21 and how much of the overall % of R1b in Scotland is made up of R1b L21?
    It would be possible would it not for someone to look at invasion areas and the rates of R1b U106 to determine whether it would be mostly from Germanic invaders? Are there any graphs of the subclades of R1b in Scotland? I think it would be very interesting to look at. Also, i've read on here about a rare haplogroup found in Scotland (and Northern Ireland, presumably from the Ulster Scots) but i cannot remember its name, would you possibly be able to tell me anything on that? Sorry for the vagueness. I think it was I2-something disles, or something like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Western Scotland was invaded by the Gaels in the Vth century. A people from Ireland who spoke a Q-Celtic language (Gaelic) while the previous people of Scotland (the Picts) spoke a P-Celtic language like others Brittons and like some continental celts (Gaulish, lepontic...).
    Most Scottish men carry the haplogroup R1b (Proto-celt), especially its subclade R1b L21 (like most Irish men)
    Eastern Scotland, the area that was the least settled by the Gaels, shows the highest frequencies in GB of R1b U152 (Alpine and gallic celts) and has significant rates of R1b U106 (Germanic). It is not easy to know wether those two subclades of R1b predate or not the Germanic invasions (Angles...).
    Indeed, Scotland got several genetic influx since the early middle ages, bringing germanic haplogroup such as I1, I2a2 (old I2b), R1a (not just germanic but present in Scandinavia) and R1b U106.
    During the germanic invasions, the Angles settled in Southern Scotland, that's why Scottish language is very close to the English one.
    Later the Vikings from Norway settled in the North, South west and in the islands (Shetlands, Orkney).
    So Scotland is mostly celtic but with strong germanic areas (Lowlands, North, Orkney, Shetlands).
    True, but L21 is hardly exclusive to Celts; it is also widespread in Germany, Norway, Denmark and Sweden.

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    according to David Faux, the highest U-152 is in Northern Italy and not in Austria or switzerland

    http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

    see page 5 and 6 in relation to scotland



    also
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-03/1300461500

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCoutts View Post
    True, but L21 is hardly exclusive to Celts; it is also widespread in Germany, Norway, Denmark and Sweden.
    It may have something to do with the Beakers. Does anyone have a link with a recent map of L21 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    according to David Faux, the highest U-152 is in Northern Italy and not in Austria or switzerland

    http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

    see page 5 and 6 in relation to scotland



    also
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-03/1300461500

    The R1b U152 found in Eastern Scotland is related to that found in the Netherland, it is L2 if I remember

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    according to David Faux, the highest U-152 is in Northern Italy and not in Austria or switzerland

    http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

    see page 5 and 6 in relation to scotland



    also
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-03/1300461500
    Thank you for the links

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    You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project. It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.

    There are about 9% of Germanic haplogroup I1. The rest is less clear. Most of the R1a (8.5%) and I2b (4%) is probably Germanic too, although some of it might be Celtic. Haplogroup Q (0.5%) is surely of Scandinavian origin.

    R1b is mixed Celtic and Germanic. Here is a small analysis.

    Not all R1b members tested for subclades, but among those who did I counted 66 Germanic R1b1a2a1a1a, aka R1b-U106 (12.5%) and 470 predominantly Celtic R1b1a2a1a1b (87.5%). The latter includes :

    - 60 Irish-Scottish R1b-M222 (12%)
    - 31 purely Scottish R1b-S68 (6%)
    - 31 Italo-Gaulish R1b-U152 (6%)
    - 11 mostly Franco-Iberian R1b-SRY2627 (2%)

    The others are undefined. There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

    Within R1b, 12.5% is Germanic R1b-U106 and 12.5% is Germanic R1b-L21. One fourth of R1b is Germanic, and three fourth Celtic. As 72.5% of Scots are R1b, it means that about 18% of all Scottish haplogroups are Germanic R1b.

    The total for Germanic lineages (I1, I2b, Q, R1a and Germanic R1b) is therefore about 40%.

    Middle Eastern haplogroups (G2a, J2, E1b1b, T), which account for 4.5% of Scottish lineages, might have come to Britain during the Neolithic, or through continental Celts, Romans and Germanic tribes. It's probably a bit of everything, though nobody knows in which proportion. Let's say that 2.5% is of Germanic origin to keep the proportions with average haplogroup frequencies in the Netherlands and Norway, the source countries of the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings in Scotland.

    This gives us 42.5% of lineages of Germanic origin. The rest (57.5%) can be considered Celtic.

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    On skadi forum there is a thread called "Is Scotland Germanic" with 55 pages.

    I didn't read all the replies but conclusions are that British people (including Irish) as a whole are a mix of Celtic and Germanic people.

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=40754

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    I do not understand that the Scandinavians brought the haplogroup Q to Scotland.
    This must be a mistake. How did the haplogroup Q arrive in Scandinavia?
    By birds? The haplogroup Q is totallt absent in Denmark, Germany and the
    Benelux.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    I do not understand that the Scandinavians brought the haplogroup Q to Scotland.
    This must be a mistake. How did the haplogroup Q arrive in Scandinavia?
    By birds? The haplogroup Q is totallt absent in Denmark, Germany and the
    Benelux.
    You are wrong. Q represents 3% of lineages in Norway and Sweden, 2% in North Germany, 1-2% in Denmark and Iceland and 0.5% in the Netherlands.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    On skadi forum there is a thread called "Is Scotland Germanic" with 55 pages.

    I didn't read all the replies but conclusions are that British people (including Irish) as a whole are a mix of Celtic and Germanic people.

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=40754
    I wouldn't trust the consensus on Skadi (you'll quickly realize that it's a pretty dumb forum if you browse around a bit), but if that's the consensus they're getting at, then they're getting at the truth. Genetically, there is a a continuum in Britain, with the most Celtic people being in Ireland, the Scottish Highlands, Wales, and Cornwall. The most Germanic are around East Anglia and Kent. The rest, including Lowland Scots, are well mixed. Culture, of course, is another question, but tends to reflect genetics for the most part in this case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I wouldn't trust the consensus on Skadi (you'll quickly realize that it's a pretty dumb forum if you browse around a bit), but if that's the consensus they're getting at, then they're getting at the truth. Genetically, there is a a continuum in Britain, with the most Celtic people being in Ireland, the Scottish Highlands, Wales, and Cornwall. The most Germanic are around East Anglia and Kent. The rest, including Lowland Scots, are well mixed. Culture, of course, is another question, but tends to reflect genetics for the most part in this case.
    From what I read, Eastern Lowlands are as Germanic as East Anglia if not more.
    (you can also check the new I1 map of Maciamo)

    You say that it's a pretty dumb forum but this thread if you read some of the replies is not more "dumb" or "immature" than some of the discussions in Eupedia (especially when it comes to Spanish genetic)

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    From what I read, Eastern Lowlands are as Germanic as East Anglia if not more.
    (you can also check the new I1 map of Maciamo)
    Keep in mind that we expect less I1 in East Anglia than in the Eastern Lowlands even if their Germanic-ness is identical, because they were settled by different types of Germanic peoples (Scotland getting more North Germanic peoples with lots of I1 and East Anglia getting more West Germanic peoples with lots of R1b-U106). But even with that said, you could be right about the gradient being starker in Scotland than in England. I haven't looked closely at distributions in the Lowlands, could they be the most Germanic place in Britain?

    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    You say that it's a pretty dumb forum but this thread if you read some of the replies is not more "dumb" or "immature" than some of the discussions in Eupedia (especially when it comes to Spanish genetic)
    OK, but for every decent thread like the one you linked, there's one like this, hence my skepticism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    OK, but for every decent thread like the one you linked, there's one like this, hence my skepticism.

    I know that the underlying ideology of that kind of forum is racist (revisionism, white supremacy...) but that thread in particular is just about history and anthropology

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project. It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.

    There are about 9% of Germanic haplogroup I1. The rest is less clear. Most of the R1a (8.5%) and I2b (4%) is probably Germanic too, although some of it might be Celtic. Haplogroup Q (0.5%) is surely of Scandinavian origin.

    R1b is mixed Celtic and Germanic. Here is a small analysis.

    Not all R1b members tested for subclades, but among those who did I counted 66 Germanic R1b1a2a1a1a, aka R1b-U106 (12.5%) and 470 predominantly Celtic R1b1a2a1a1b (87.5%). The latter includes :

    - 60 Irish-Scottish R1b-M222 (12%)
    - 31 purely Scottish R1b-S68 (6%)
    - 31 Italo-Gaulish R1b-U152 (6%)
    - 11 mostly Franco-Iberian R1b-SRY2627 (2%)

    The others are undefined. There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

    Within R1b, 12.5% is Germanic R1b-U106 and 12.5% is Germanic R1b-L21. One fourth of R1b is Germanic, and three fourth Celtic. As 72.5% of Scots are R1b, it means that about 18% of all Scottish haplogroups are Germanic R1b.

    The total for Germanic lineages (I1, I2b, Q, R1a and Germanic R1b) is therefore about 40%.

    Middle Eastern haplogroups (G2a, J2, E1b1b, T), which account for 4.5% of Scottish lineages, might have come to Britain during the Neolithic, or through continental Celts, Romans and Germanic tribes. It's probably a bit of everything, though nobody knows in which proportion. Let's say that 2.5% is of Germanic origin to keep the proportions with average haplogroup frequencies in the Netherlands and Norway, the source countries of the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings in Scotland.

    This gives us 42.5% of lineages of Germanic origin. The rest (57.5%) can be considered Celtic.
    So almost half of Scots are Germanic? I was'nt aware of that. Mind you, a lot of my closer matches on GeneBase are English or Germanic...

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    Here the whole world is Celtic less Spain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlitos View Post
    Here the whole world is Celtic less Spain.
    you can be slavic if you like because thats what some say for all of europe

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    Forget about haplogroups. SW Scottish at Eurogenes have the following autosomal percentages, labels are arbitrary :

    56.6 % North-Atlantic (peaks in Irish)
    27.5 % Northern Euro (peaks in Swedes)
    10.2% East-Euro Finnic (peaks in Finns)
    4.4% Balto-Slavic (peaks in Lithuanians)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Forget about haplogroups. SW Scottish at Eurogenes have the following autosomal percentages, labels are arbitrary :

    56.6 % North-Atlantic (peaks in Irish)
    27.5 % Northern Euro (peaks in Swedes)
    10.2% East-Euro Finnic (peaks in Finns)
    4.4% Balto-Slavic (peaks in Lithuanians)
    If North-Atlantic means Celtic, then it matches my estimate through haplogroups exactly. As for the rest, Germanic people are indeed an admixture of Northern European, East European and Balto-Slavic. Even the 8.5% of R1a is pretty close from 10% of East European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If North-Atlantic means Celtic, then it matches my estimate through haplogroups exactly. As for the rest, Germanic people are indeed an admixture of Northern European, East European and Balto-Slavic. Even the 8.5% of R1a is pretty close from 10% of East European.
    North-Atlantic has this ranking :

    Irish 64.6
    SW Scots 56.6
    Cornwall 56.1
    UK 44.2
    Kent 41.6
    Spain 39.3
    France 37.6
    Portugal 37
    Austria 30

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    I also think that the North Atlantic cluster is what genetically matches better the Celts. Interesting to see Spain with more North Atlantic than France, and Portugal it's almost the same as France. I think that probably with more samples the French would become more Celtic in average, but it's also interesting to note there are several individuals in Spain with 56 % of North Atlantic, wich is very high considering the averages.

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    Hmm.. Maybe it's a good idea to make a difference between the Highlands and the Lowlands of Scotland.
    The Lowlands are more influenced by Germanic tribes, while the Highlands stayed Celtic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    North-Atlantic has this ranking :

    Irish 64.6
    SW Scots 56.6
    Cornwall 56.1
    UK 44.2
    Kent 41.6
    Spain 39.3
    France 37.6
    Portugal 37
    Austria 30
    SW Scots is an interesting choice for a sample, and could help us understand the admixture we expect from Brythonic populations, as SW Scotland is the traditionally Brythonic bit. Not surprisingly, they seem to be closest to the (also Brythonic) Cornish using this dataset (are you using a different one, Wilhelm?):

    Southeast Baltic/Northern European/North Atlantic/East or North Eurasian/Sub-Saharan African/Southern European/Western European
    Irish: 2/27/52/0/0/1/18
    SW Scots: 4/30/48/0/0/0/17
    Cornish: 2/29/48/0/0/4/17
    Kentish: 4/40/35/0/0/5/16
    Dutch: 5/45/29/0/0/10/10

    Although Celtic and Germanic peoples both seem to display high levels of both Northern European and North Atlantic components, it seems clear that, at least when looking at the British Isles, North Atlantic = more Celtic and Northern European = more Germanic. It's actually quite interesting how exact the match is between SW Scots and their fellow traditional Brythonic peoples in Cornwall, with the major difference being more Southern European influence in Cornwall.

    Making a table from most to least Celtic using the above, we have: Irish > SW Scots = Cornish > Kentish > Dutch. Which is pretty much expected. I expect Northern Scots to be less similar to the Cornish and more similar to the Irish, who are close by to begin with.

    SE Scotland may be a different story, though...

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