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Thread: New map of haplogroup T

  1. #26
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia





    ISOGG update for T markers ( 4th in 4 years)

    Here is thecurrent T tree at ISOGG updated as of yesterday.


    T L445, L452, L455, L810, M184/Page34/USP9Y+3178, M272, Page129
    • T* -
    • T1 L206, L490, M193
    • • T1* -
    • • T1a M70/Page46, Page78
    • • • T1a* -
    • • • T1a1 L162/Page21, L299, L453, L454

    • • • T1a2 L131
    • • • • T1a2* -
    • • • • T1a2a P322, P328
    • • • • T1a2b L446



    If you are L446 negative, then you could test for P322.


    I have changed again


    EDIT on above
    http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

    one of my project guys might have given me different information

    If Isogg is correct , then the Mendez papers of 2 years ago are obsolrtr as he mentions T1a2 as not having subclade L131

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T-Z710

    Ethnic group
    German (6 generation Autosomal)
    Country: UK - England



    Hello, Northern European "T" here. Wikipedia sites in general are now very strongly moderated and so I hope that the "gaps" in the reference list in Wikipedia's T-site can be explained. I have written to the moderator(moderators?) asking for the sources of those areas that do not have a reference - lets see what they say, as there is a lot of interesting data, particularly in Germany, Northern Europe and Scandinavia.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
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    Of what origin r u?

  4. #29
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Desert Fox View Post
    Hello, Northern European "T" here. Wikipedia sites in general are now very strongly moderated and so I hope that the "gaps" in the reference list in Wikipedia's T-site can be explained. I have written to the moderator(moderators?) asking for the sources of those areas that do not have a reference - lets see what they say, as there is a lot of interesting data, particularly in Germany, Northern Europe and Scandinavia.
    Z710 ?...is that new

    Which company have you tested for?

    I am T with the following
    M184+ , M193+, M272+, M70+, L131+, L446+, P327-

  5. #30
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    I think it's just downstream of Z709

  6. #31
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T-Z710

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    Indeed, according to Geno 2 TZ-710 is L299 derived but not P77. Still waiting to hear from Wiki about those data sets which don't have references but the site does say that "the paternal haplogroup T-M70 varies between 3% and 24% of male lineages in Germany", and quotes The Genographic Project 2.0 2012. This seems to be backed up by the dataset for German Stilfs at least, with a figure of 23.5% (I. Pichler et al., "Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms," Human Biology, August 2006, v. 78, no. 4, pp. 441–464). The Eupedia density map only shows 1%. If the other Wiki sources prove valid then the Eupedia map may need to be updated, at least for this area. Will keep you posted.

  7. #32
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Yes but...the Stilfs are an exception in Germany; what they meant us that he lowest frequency is near 3% and the highest region tested at 24%. Thing is Germany has like 1-3% hg T in reality; same for England, it just really isn't present there. Italians have exceptional amounts at 3-5% of the males on average in the entire nation. Sicily has an 18% high in the Sciacca region. Parts of Spain and Portugal have as high as 10% with 20% or higher only experienced in a few bizarre cities across Italy the island of Chios and near Crete/the Aegean islands as well.

  8. #33
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    That's for Europe anyways.

  9. #34
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    The MAXIMUM reported in any zone of Germany is 24%! The national levels are like.....2-4% lol, not even, same for England and all of Europe excluding the italian 3-5% "high" Sicily's 5-17% and ibiza's 14%.

  10. #35
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Yes but...the Stilfs are an exception in Germany; what they meant us that he lowest frequency is near 3% and the highest region tested at 24%. Thing is Germany has like 1-3% hg T in reality; same for England, it just really isn't present there. Italians have exceptional amounts at 3-5% of the males on average in the entire nation. Sicily has an 18% high in the Sciacca region. Parts of Spain and Portugal have as high as 10% with 20% or higher only experienced in a few bizarre cities across Italy the island of Chios and near Crete/the Aegean islands as well.
    Stilfs is in Italy, south-tirol. The ancient people there where raetic people (modern Ladins) who spoke raetian language and became Ladins once learning latin.

    I believe he means, that the 3% to 24% indicates that subclade M70 of all of T in Germany is in that range. the other T subclades are different or branched further than m70.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Desert Fox View Post
    Indeed, according to Geno 2 TZ-710 is L299 derived but not P77. Still waiting to hear from Wiki about those data sets which don't have references but the site does say that "the paternal haplogroup T-M70 varies between 3% and 24% of male lineages in Germany", and quotes The Genographic Project 2.0 2012. This seems to be backed up by the dataset for German Stilfs at least, with a figure of 23.5% (I. Pichler et al., "Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms," Human Biology, August 2006, v. 78, no. 4, pp. 441–464). The Eupedia density map only shows 1%. If the other Wiki sources prove valid then the Eupedia map may need to be updated, at least for this area. Will keep you posted.
    stilfs is in Italy.

    I read somewhere that there was a new marker as you described , but I thought it would be branded as T1a4, but then I also heard it would be T1a1a3

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    Stilfs is near the Italo/Germano/Austrian border regions you are correct. Seems that Iberia in a more secondary way; but Ibiza islands, western Sicily, parts of mainland Italy and the island of Chios off turkey plus certain Aegean islands + fractions of Crete certainly have europe's highest T frequencies with generally higher frequencies towards the east-central Mediterranean regions: all this within Europe.

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    It would seem that hg T finds it's highest hot bed concentration across south-west and central Iran. This stretches across Ilam, lorestan, khuzestan, Bakhtiari, yazd, fars, kerman; these southwest and central Iranian provinces have 10-13% hg T. Then 7% spread across much of Iraq with a 10% peak in the extreme south. From here hg T seems to initially radiate.

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    Thanks Adamo. I am still waiting to hear back from 2 of the administrators on the Wiki site about the missing sources for some of their data, but I have managed to make some progress on some of them myself.
    1. Scandinavian data - Karlsson et al (2006) Eur.J.Hum.Genet. 14, 963-970.
    We have: GOTLAND (2/40 = 5%), UPPSALA (1/55 = 2%), BLEKINGE (1/41 = 2%), VASTERBOTTEN (1/41 = 2%). This is based on the (reasonable) assumption that K*(xN,P) is all T & the contribution from any haplo L folks is small.
    Earlier Jorgensen et al (2004) Hum. Genet. 115, 19-28 is where the Faroes and Danish data comes from: We find from their distribution map: FAROE ISLANDS (2/89 = 2%), DENMARK (3/62 = 5%). Also NORWAY (4/157 = 3%), ICELAND (2/181 = 1%), average for SWEDEN (9/110 = 8%), again based on that assumption. The results for Gotland and Sweden seem to reinforce the other data Wiki quotes for Malmo (1/29 = 3%) and Orebo (1/32 = 3%). Couldn't find the source of the Shetlands data but it does ties in with the Faroes.
    2. The data showing very high levels in SOUTH GERMANY/BAVARIA looks genuine (4/17 = 24% - this extremely high level must be due to drift), from Pichler et al (2006) Human Biology, 441–464, and reinforces the data for Alsace (4/80 = 5%) and other data quoted in the region. I've not yet been able to find the source of Wiki's northern German data based on BERLIN (4/103 = 4%) or the HOLLAND (1/18 = 6%) and FLEMISH data (1/42 = 2% and 2/119 = 2%) but hope to hear from the moderators about that. I've been shown data from a Kurdistan led study showing significant levels of L299 in northern Europe (including Holland, Denmark and Lithuania) but that has not been published yet. And according to the Geno2 report I was given for L299 it describes significant levels also in Holland and England. So in all, the distribution map shown by Wiki seems reasonable. Our own subclade in England (based on the distributions of the surnames of folks we know who belong to our group) seem to follow an East to north west cline. In short, I think the Wiki map is OK, at least from a North European perspective.
    Whatever, I think the otherwise excellent map on this page should be revised to take into proper account us Northerners.
    To me, it seems from the evidence so far that the T's came into Europe via Anatolia, and one group headed through Greece and onto Germany and northwards to Scandinavia and Eastern Britain and northern isles, another group headed through Italy, Southern France (the proportions there seem overestimated) and Iberia. A further group headed from SW Asia northwards through the Crimea. Speculative at the moment but we await the full findings from Geno 2 with interest.
    Of course I maybe just another old Northern European having a grumble!

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    2/3 of all T samples are L299 Fox : ) regardless of their global position ; L299+ is about 100% of Armenian, Lebanese and Syrian T samples, for example. In total though, only 10% of Armenians are T and 2-5% I believe of the other two countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Desert Fox View Post
    Thanks Adamo. I am still waiting to hear back from 2 of the administrators on the Wiki site about the missing sources for some of their data, but I have managed to make some progress on some of them myself.
    1. Scandinavian data - Karlsson et al (2006) Eur.J.Hum.Genet. 14, 963-970.
    We have: GOTLAND (2/40 = 5%), UPPSALA (1/55 = 2%), BLEKINGE (1/41 = 2%), VASTERBOTTEN (1/41 = 2%). This is based on the (reasonable) assumption that K*(xN,P) is all T & the contribution from any haplo L folks is small.
    Earlier Jorgensen et al (2004) Hum. Genet. 115, 19-28 is where the Faroes and Danish data comes from: We find from their distribution map: FAROE ISLANDS (2/89 = 2%), DENMARK (3/62 = 5%). Also NORWAY (4/157 = 3%), ICELAND (2/181 = 1%), average for SWEDEN (9/110 = 8%), again based on that assumption. The results for Gotland and Sweden seem to reinforce the other data Wiki quotes for Malmo (1/29 = 3%) and Orebo (1/32 = 3%). Couldn't find the source of the Shetlands data but it does ties in with the Faroes.
    2. The data showing very high levels in SOUTH GERMANY/BAVARIA looks genuine (4/17 = 24% - this extremely high level must be due to drift), from Pichler et al (2006) Human Biology, 441–464, and reinforces the data for Alsace (4/80 = 5%) and other data quoted in the region. I've not yet been able to find the source of Wiki's northern German data based on BERLIN (4/103 = 4%) or the HOLLAND (1/18 = 6%) and FLEMISH data (1/42 = 2% and 2/119 = 2%) but hope to hear from the moderators about that. I've been shown data from a Kurdistan led study showing significant levels of L299 in northern Europe (including Holland, Denmark and Lithuania) but that has not been published yet. And according to the Geno2 report I was given for L299 it describes significant levels also in Holland and England. So in all, the distribution map shown by Wiki seems reasonable. Our own subclade in England (based on the distributions of the surnames of folks we know who belong to our group) seem to follow an East to north west cline. In short, I think the Wiki map is OK, at least from a North European perspective.
    Whatever, I think the otherwise excellent map on this page should be revised to take into proper account us Northerners.
    To me, it seems from the evidence so far that the T's came into Europe via Anatolia, and one group headed through Greece and onto Germany and northwards to Scandinavia and Eastern Britain and northern isles, another group headed through Italy, Southern France (the proportions there seem overestimated) and Iberia. A further group headed from SW Asia northwards through the Crimea. Speculative at the moment but we await the full findings from Geno 2 with interest.
    Of course I maybe just another old Northern European having a grumble!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Desert Fox View Post
    Thanks Adamo. I am still waiting to hear back from 2 of the administrators on the Wiki site about the missing sources for some of their data, but I have managed to make some progress on some of them myself.
    1. Scandinavian data - Karlsson et al (2006) Eur.J.Hum.Genet. 14, 963-970.
    We have: GOTLAND (2/40 = 5%), UPPSALA (1/55 = 2%), BLEKINGE (1/41 = 2%), VASTERBOTTEN (1/41 = 2%). This is based on the (reasonable) assumption that K*(xN,P) is all T & the contribution from any haplo L folks is small.
    When T was formed from K2 in 2008 the data above was recalculated and the following was the result - note I will use T-L299 for T1a and T-L131 for T1b

    Gotland and Blekinge was 100% T1b low diversity
    Vasterbotten was joined with Jutland and was 100% T1b
    Uppsala unsure , but I have Uusimaa as 100% T1a

    Earlier Jorgensen et al (2004) Hum. Genet. 115, 19-28 is where the Faroes and Danish data comes from: We find from their distribution map: FAROE ISLANDS (2/89 = 2%), DENMARK (3/62 = 5%). Also NORWAY (4/157 = 3%), ICELAND (2/181 = 1%), average for SWEDEN (9/110 = 8%), again based on that assumption. The results for Gotland and Sweden seem to reinforce the other data Wiki quotes for Malmo (1/29 = 3%) and Orebo (1/32 = 3%). Couldn't find the source of the Shetlands data but it does ties in with the Faroes.
    Shetland is 100% T1b
    Faroe is in a 2006 report about vikings.....I can get it...........person by the name of Jamieson
    Norway, 2 I know are T1b
    Baltic Prussia ..........50% for both T1a and T1b

    2. The data showing very high levels in SOUTH GERMANY/BAVARIA looks genuine (4/17 = 24% - this extremely high level must be due to drift), from Pichler et al (2006) Human Biology, 441–464, and reinforces the data for Alsace (4/80 = 5%) and other data quoted in the region. I've not yet been able to find the source of Wiki's northern German data based on BERLIN (4/103 = 4%) or the HOLLAND (1/18 = 6%) and FLEMISH data (1/42 = 2% and 2/119 = 2%) but hope to hear from the moderators about that. I've been shown data from a Kurdistan led study showing significant levels of L299 in northern Europe (including Holland, Denmark and Lithuania) but that has not been published yet. And according to the Geno2 report I was given for L299 it describes significant levels also in Holland and England. So in all, the distribution map shown by Wiki seems reasonable. Our own subclade in England (based on the distributions of the surnames of folks we know who belong to our group) seem to follow an East to north west cline. In short, I think the Wiki map is OK, at least from a North European perspective.
    Benelux is 50% each for T1a and T1b
    Central Germany...( must be Berlin ) 71% T1a and 29% T1b.....high diversity
    Czech, south Tyrol and slovenia is 100% T1a
    Trento, friuli and veneto ( and Ladin areas) is 50% each for T1a and T1b

    Whatever, I think the otherwise excellent map on this page should be revised to take into proper account us Northerners.
    To me, it seems from the evidence so far that the T's came into Europe via Anatolia, and one group headed through Greece and onto Germany and northwards to Scandinavia and Eastern Britain and northern isles, another group headed through Italy, Southern France (the proportions there seem overestimated) and Iberia. A further group headed from SW Asia northwards through the Crimea. Speculative at the moment but we await the full findings from Geno 2 with interest.
    Of course I maybe just another old Northern European having a grumble!
    agree, with the added 2 routes..........Bulgaria and Romania through the Danube and
    to Estonia as part of the paper for the Baltic jump zone


    EDIT - Read from page 35 ..........you can calculate what they are using a ypredictor ( for faroe and shetland and iceland)
    http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsi...NAEvidence.pdf

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    Yes I agree that Northern Europe and Europe in General seems to have a lot of T1b; the oldest forms of T1b thus far have been detected in turkey; most Bakhtiaris, Kuwaitis, and half of Turkish and Saudi Arabian samples are T1b.

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    I mean that he little percentage of T there is is predominantly T1b.

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    Whereas T1a has a more Mediterranean spread and all across the Middle East of course; virtually all Armenian, Chechen, lurs, Lebanese, Syrian, Egyptian and many other areas are mostly T1a's. Saudi Arabia, turkey and western parts of Iran are split fifty-fifty between T1b and T1a; the Bakhtiaris are predominantly T1b whereas the Lurs are 100% T1a.

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    map of T marker...only 67 and above markers noted..............seems like this site ignore the lesser tested ones



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    Quote Originally Posted by The Desert Fox View Post
    Thanks Adamo. I am still waiting to hear back from 2 of the administrators on the Wiki site about the missing sources for some of their data, but I have managed to make some progress on some of them myself.
    1. Scandinavian data - Karlsson et al (2006) Eur.J.Hum.Genet. 14, 963-970.
    We have: GOTLAND (2/40 = 5%), UPPSALA (1/55 = 2%), BLEKINGE (1/41 = 2%), VASTERBOTTEN (1/41 = 2%). This is based on the (reasonable) assumption that K*(xN,P) is all T & the contribution from any haplo L folks is small.
    Earlier Jorgensen et al (2004) Hum. Genet. 115, 19-28 is where the Faroes and Danish data comes from: We find from their distribution map: FAROE ISLANDS (2/89 = 2%), DENMARK (3/62 = 5%). Also NORWAY (4/157 = 3%), ICELAND (2/181 = 1%), average for SWEDEN (9/110 = 8%), again based on that assumption. The results for Gotland and Sweden seem to reinforce the other data Wiki quotes for Malmo (1/29 = 3%) and Orebo (1/32 = 3%). Couldn't find the source of the Shetlands data but it does ties in with the Faroes.
    2. The data showing very high levels in SOUTH GERMANY/BAVARIA looks genuine (4/17 = 24% - this extremely high level must be due to drift), from Pichler et al (2006) Human Biology, 441–464, and reinforces the data for Alsace (4/80 = 5%) and other data quoted in the region. I've not yet been able to find the source of Wiki's northern German data based on BERLIN (4/103 = 4%) or the HOLLAND (1/18 = 6%) and FLEMISH data (1/42 = 2% and 2/119 = 2%) but hope to hear from the moderators about that. I've been shown data from a Kurdistan led study showing significant levels of L299 in northern Europe (including Holland, Denmark and Lithuania) but that has not been published yet. And according to the Geno2 report I was given for L299 it describes significant levels also in Holland and England. So in all, the distribution map shown by Wiki seems reasonable. Our own subclade in England (based on the distributions of the surnames of folks we know who belong to our group) seem to follow an East to north west cline. In short, I think the Wiki map is OK, at least from a North European perspective.
    Whatever, I think the otherwise excellent map on this page should be revised to take into proper account us Northerners.
    To me, it seems from the evidence so far that the T's came into Europe via Anatolia, and one group headed through Greece and onto Germany and northwards to Scandinavia and Eastern Britain and northern isles, another group headed through Italy, Southern France (the proportions there seem overestimated) and Iberia. A further group headed from SW Asia northwards through the Crimea. Speculative at the moment but we await the full findings from Geno 2 with interest.
    Of course I maybe just another old Northern European having a grumble!
    @MACIANO
    you need to upgrade your T map to reflect the above data

  22. #47
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    So what do you read from this map Maciamo? In the Middle East I see and abundance of Turkish and Saudi ArabiansArabians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    MACIANO
    you need to upgrade your T map to reflect the above data
    MACIAMO - indeed it does need updating. We can then sit more proudly alongside our brothers from the South

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Desert Fox View Post
    MACIAMO - indeed it does need updating. We can then sit more proudly alongside our brothers from the South
    The old version from a few months ago had a much higher level of T in northern Europe. But after comibing all studies for every country, I noticed that the "hotspots" in some regions were simply due to sampling bias or the fact that people assumed that hg K in older studies was necessarily T, something that was disproved by newer studies. Overall there isn't a single North European country where T exceeds 1%, except Estonia, but I am confident that this is also a sampling bias and that later studies will also lower that percentage.

    Over the years I have realised that the rarer a haplogroup is, the more important it is to have a large sample size to avoid sampling bias. For haplogroup T it is hard to trust data for any country if there is less than 1000 samples. Local peaks in tiny samples under 100 are not representative and indeed very misleading, which is why they should be ignored.

    Studies published before 2010 (or some even after that) did not specifically test for T, but only for K, which may also includes L, N or actual K*. Therefore data from such studies should be taken with a pinch of salt and percentages of T always revised downward compared to K.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    map of T marker...only 67 and above markers noted..............seems like this site ignore the lesser tested ones

    Maps of commercial samples are useless to know the actual frequency in each country and region because:

    1) People in richer countries buy more commercial tests. This map makes it look like T is more common in the United Emirates and Saudi Arabia than in Iraq and Egypt, which is completely false.
    2) Genetic genealogy is not equally popular between rich countries (e.g. far more popular in Britain than France). Based on this map it would appear that T is vastly more common in Britain, the Netherlands and Germany than in France, Spain and northern Italy, which is nonsense.
    3) Commercial samples include a lot of colonial data of people who may not know for sure where their patrilinal ancestors came from (and even if they do, the chances of non-paternity event from someone with completely different roots would falsify the results).
    4) A lot of commercial samples from Central and Eastern Europe are from Ashkenazi Jews and are not representative of the non-Jewish population of these countries. This is quite obvious on this map.

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