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Thread: New R1a map

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    what about this
    http://groh.ru/gro/history/legacy.html
    Paleolithic culture, the Aurignacian
    Completely wrong and outdated page. Why are you even posting this ?

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    If I look at the places in western/atlantic Europe where R1a exceeds 5% (in particular Auvergne, Cantabria - Scottish R1a might be of Viking origin, but what speaks against that is the fact that the distribution of R1a in Scotland is non-consistenst with other typically Germanic markers), it certainly begs the question if there isn't also a small Celtic component to R1a. I have no idea as to when this component arrived - wether it was with Proto-Celtic speakers, or wether it arrived the spread of iron-working across the Celtic-speaking world: either factors would have been from areas where a small concentration of R1a would make sense. The problem however, if assuming that these hotspots in formerly Celtic lands are indeed of Celtic origin, is explaining why they appear like exactly that: local peaks.

    One general observation I would make here is - regarding R1a as a whole in Europe, and regarding the Slavic migrations: if you look at the situation, there seem to be two layers of R1a penetration: the first, which seems to explain levels in excess of 10% - seems to be originated with the Corded Ware Culture, whereas the second layer seems to correspond with the Slavic migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post

    Another possibility is continuity between Kurds and Persians, as Persians have similar levels of R1a. That's possibly more expected, as Kurds speak an Iranian language.
    Thats a possibility but I do not think this is the answer. The Kurdish R1a has surprisingly no flowing connection with that found in Iran. Surprisingly the Region of Northwest Iran, where the Kurds make the large majority, has less R1a. On the contrary R1b and G2a* are dominating in this Region. R1a among Kurds has its largest spread in East Anatolia and not in West Iran like someone would expect.

    Also a study the R1a in East Anatolia is typical for that among Armenians and other Caucasians. This suggests a different origin of the R1a among Kurds.

    Also if you look at other Maps, it gets clearly obvious how the R1a among Iranians seems to be a gene flow from Central Asia. We see clearly a barrier between the Kurdish and Iranian R1a. I assume a different, not Slavic and not Iranian in sense of Persians (other Iranic tribe is possible) origin of R1a* among Kurds.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...stribution.png
    Last edited by Alan; 05-08-11 at 18:40.

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    This map looks quite realistic.

    PD: I have problems to access the website.

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    I was thinking that since the Vandals had a close alliance with the alans ( sarmatians ) and these followed the vandals to the west. There markings where G2 and R1a .

    usually tribes stick together instead of dispersing with their allies. Is there any G2 in that averagne area?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I was thinking that since the Vandals had a close alliance with the alans ( sarmatians ) and these followed the vandals to the west. There markings where G2 and R1a .

    usually tribes stick together instead of dispersing with their allies. Is there any G2 in that averagne area?
    There is a lot of Neolithic G2a3 in Auvergne. But it's not the kind of G that I would associate with the Alans (they would have been either G1 or G2a1).

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Two other possibilities remain which I think are even less likely: that R1b peoples were the first Indo-Europeans, and that neither R1a nor R1b were significant parts of the initial Indo-European admixture.
    Yeah, that's very plausible. Nobody knows the real true. I don't want to exclude any theory, but the gathered 'sources' which are more accepted by nowadays standards speak against this theory.

    The thing with R1a that it has been associated with the ancient Indo-European cultures in Europe. Like Corded Ware (Danubian and Nordic areas of western Germany, Denmark and southern Sweden) and Kurgan (Ukraine and South Russia) cultures in Europe and Andronovo culture in Central Asia. They found some R1a remnants in these ancient sites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If there is any Germanic haplogroup that is present in surprisingly high density in that region, it is R1b-S21 (R1b-U106), not R1a.
    Do you have the data for Burgundy or any recent map of R1b-S21?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Do you have the data for Burgundy or any recent map of R1b-S21?
    I am that marker and what I have been told, it represents frisia in the netherlands along the coast to jutland ( denmark), down through belgium lands, through germany into the central alps to lombardy and veneto.
    it was the old danish amber trail the ancients used and the cimbri people knew about

    Jutland/nordic amber and baltic amber are different under the microscope , and both are found in northern Italy.

    I agree I would also like a retailed idea on where this marker is

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    I have added a shade for frequencies between 2.5% and 5%.

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    It was a great idea to implement finer resolution below 10%. Map is much richer and more interesting now. Thanks

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    Much better now.

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    I'm very interested what software is used to create this kind of maps. I like to use them on a regional basis for distribution maps out of geodata from GEDCOM-files.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarTyro View Post
    I'm very interested what software is used to create this kind of maps. I like to use them on a regional basis for distribution maps out of geodata from GEDCOM-files.
    Just Photoshop. All scrupulously handmade.

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    Is the map correct for Liguria. I recently read that since the Genoese had holdings in the sea of Azov, most of crimeria until 1473, a permanent area in para ( next to byzantine ) , the greek islands ( lemnos and cyprus and others ), yet they have 0% R1a.............seems strange



    Wiki ( and other sites ) has that over 50% of croatian R1a percentage comes from the island people ( northern adriatic ) and istria ......... curious ..........lubarni maybe

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    about Italy,

    shouldn't Κalabria have raised R1a

    also Greece should have a spot bigger than 20 in central Greece?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    about Italy,

    shouldn't Κalabria have raised R1a

    also Greece should have a spot bigger than 20 in central Greece?
    Based on what data ? Central Greece has 11% of R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Two other possibilities remain which I think are even less likely: that R1b peoples were the first Indo-Europeans, and that neither R1a nor R1b were significant parts of the initial Indo-European admixture.
    Why would this be less likely?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennus View Post
    Why would this be less likely?
    I find it unlikely that the first Indo-Europeans were R1b dominant because R1b-L23, which contains almost all of the IE R1b peoples, is relatively young compared to R1a1a, and contains a lot of non-IE peoples in it like the Basques and Assyrians. To me that suggests that some R1b peoples adopted IE languages sometime after L23 came about, rather than a transmission from them back to R1a1a populations.

    I find it unlikely that neither R1a nor R1b were part of the first Indo-European population because R1a+R1b correlates so well with the spread of IE. I think others have attempted to correlate PIE with Haplogroup I (pretty much impossible IMHO) and Haplogroup G (possible but less likely IMHO due to European G being so Neolithic and G-dominant populations being so frequently non-IE).

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    Nice map. Good job on it!
    I am not sure if this is the right area I should be posting this comment, But I was hoping somebody could help me out. I am trying to figure out the YDNA makeup of the Frankish tribes. I am curious because I believe I have been able to trace my ancestry back to the Cologne merchants that flooded into London following the Norman Invasion. Cologne, falling roughly into what was once Frankish territory, is why I am interested in the YDNA of the Franks. My R1a subtype (according to R1a . org) matches the "Central European" R1a type, while I believe that the "North Western" type is most commonly associated with the Germanic people. So my question is if the Franks carried R1a, and if they did, what modern day R1a type would they most likley be associated with.

    And If my ancestor was a "Germanized Slav"as someone has suggested, when would he have entered Germany (what major Slavic Migration reached as far west as Cologne, before the year 1100AD?)

    I am probably missing out on some major concepts behind the migrations of R1a in Europe, but that is why I am asking the community for help :)
    Thanks for your time reading this!
    TCR1AG

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    Does anyone know where in Europe we have R1a1-M17 big Concentrations? also an analogy of M17/other R1a

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Does anyone know where in Europe we have R1a1-M17 big Concentrations? also an analogy of M17/other R1a
    If you search for it in rootsweb, people say it comes from siberia into norway , then to central europe or british isles

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatConfusedR1AGuy View Post
    Nice map. Good job on it!
    I am not sure if this is the right area I should be posting this comment, But I was hoping somebody could help me out. I am trying to figure out the YDNA makeup of the Frankish tribes. I am curious because I believe I have been able to trace my ancestry back to the Cologne merchants that flooded into London following the Norman Invasion. Cologne, falling roughly into what was once Frankish territory, is why I am interested in the YDNA of the Franks. My R1a subtype (according to R1a . org) matches the "Central European" R1a type, while I believe that the "North Western" type is most commonly associated with the Germanic people. So my question is if the Franks carried R1a, and if they did, what modern day R1a type would they most likley be associated with.

    And If my ancestor was a "Germanized Slav"as someone has suggested, when would he have entered Germany (what major Slavic Migration reached as far west as Cologne, before the year 1100AD?)

    I am probably missing out on some major concepts behind the migrations of R1a in Europe, but that is why I am asking the community for help :)
    Thanks for your time reading this!
    TCR1AG
    Slavs have never come as far west as Cologne. The westernmost place Slavs have ever got is about 10 to 11° longitude. But around 1000AD, shortly before the Norman conquest, everything east of that line was "savage frontierland" so to say. Christianization and germanization of Slavs have just got started. It seems a bit unlikely to me -but not impossible- that a guy from today's East Germany, Poland or Czech Republic moved to Cologne as a merchant at that time and then he or his descendands to England.

    Generally I'm always very sceptical about deep linage research as far as 1000 years. First of all, until like three hundred years ago it wasn't uncommon if someone took the family name of a family he was employed at, but not related with. And secondly, there have always been naughty women...

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    According to polish historians this was the situation of west Slavs by 800-950AD, and the farthest extend to the west.

    http://www.piastowie.kei.pl/piast/mapy/1.htm

    West Slavs 800-950.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    According to polish historians this was the situation of west Slavs by 800-950AD, and the farthest extend to the west.

    http://www.piastowie.kei.pl/piast/mapy/1.htm

    West Slavs 800-950.jpg
    thanks, i was alays looking for this.

    proves that the Henry the lion wars in mecklenburg was correct as he germanized back the mecklenberg , pommerain territories as per the time of the barbaric east german migrations of the roman empire.

    also note that the venedi, aestii and prussians lands where always noted as non-slavic lands populated by baltic peoples, be them letts, sami, goths or "vandalic" types

    sorry for typing and formatting errors as my main hand is in a cast........you need to defend yourself in barbaric australia. thank goodness ( she) i am looked after for other issues.

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