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Thread: New R1a map

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    Slavs have never come as far west as Cologne. The westernmost place Slavs have ever got is about 10 to 11° longitude. But around 1000AD, shortly before the Norman conquest, everything east of that line was "savage frontierland" so to say. Christianization and germanization of Slavs have just got started. It seems a bit unlikely to me -but not impossible- that a guy from today's East Germany, Poland or Czech Republic moved to Cologne as a merchant at that time and then he or his descendands to England.

    Generally I'm always very sceptical about deep linage research as far as 1000 years. First of all, until like three hundred years ago it wasn't uncommon if someone took the family name of a family he was employed at, but not related with. And secondly, there have always been naughty women...
    naughty women , but nice

    could be frankish or slavic associated with the hansetic league. mecklenburg ( lubeck) was slavic and they traded with "frankish" flanders

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    My opinion is that R1a's subclades are still too poorly resolved to make reliable claims here about which subclades are associated with whom yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    naughty women , but nice

    could be frankish or slavic associated with the hansetic league. mecklenburg ( lubeck) was slavic and they traded with "frankish" flanders
    The Hanseatic League wasn't established before the 12th century, and even then it grew slowly at first. Moreover 'ThatconfusedR1aguy' stated that his R1a was more of a central European subclade. Individual migrations from Slavic central Europe to the Rhine must have been very rare at that time (Early Middle Ages). That means I don't want to say it's impossible, but very unlikely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    The Hanseatic League wasn't established before the 12th century, and even then it grew slowly at first. Moreover 'ThatconfusedR1aguy' stated that his R1a was more of a central European subclade. Individual migrations from Slavic central Europe to the Rhine must have been very rare at that time (Early Middle Ages). That means I don't want to say it's impossible, but very unlikely.
    from the R1a.org site he mentions

    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en...9&source=embed

    there is a small pocket in south west germany


    if its really old
    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en...7&source=embed

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    I may have missed it in this thread, but what is the source for the ~5% R1a in Auvergne? I am curious what study or studies came up with that figure, what the sample sizes were, etc.

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I may have missed it in this thread, but what is the source for the ~5% R1a in Auvergne? I am curious what study or studies came up with that figure, what the sample sizes were, etc.

    Thanks!
    read from post #4 of this thread, it caould be from the east germanic burgundians

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    read from post #4 of this thread, it caould be from the east germanic burgundians
    R1a might be there since earlier times as the Burgundians never went to Auvergne

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    R1a might be there since earlier times as the Burgundians never went to Auvergne
    it been discussed before, a distance of less than 20K is insignificant in the scheme of immigration

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    it been discussed before, a distance of less than 20K is insignificant in the scheme of immigration
    The problem is that R1a is higher in Auvergne than in Rhône-Alpes and Provence, two regions where the Burgundians settled

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    The problem is that R1a is higher in Auvergne than in Rhône-Alpes and Provence, two regions where the Burgundians settled
    Depends on what you believe..I believe that R1a was in eastern germans, scandinavian tribes prior to any 'slavic" movements and that these east german migrations "picked up" other haplotype on the migration journey.
    If as people think these East german tribes had no R1a and where entirely I , then the haplotypes in italy and southern france would indicate that no germanic people settled there as I is minimal.

    East germanic tribes, would be in dominace R1a and I1 , mix in the gothic and vandal types into the migratory mix and what do we have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    The problem is that R1a is higher in Auvergne than in Rhône-Alpes and Provence, two regions where the Burgundians settled
    The burgundians settled in western switzerland and west of that into france, i think its dijon country

    They never reached provence

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Depends on what you believe..I believe that R1a was in eastern germans, scandinavian tribes prior to any 'slavic" movements and that these east german migrations "picked up" other haplotype on the migration journey.
    If as people think these East german tribes had no R1a and where entirely I , then the haplotypes in italy and southern france would indicate that no germanic people settled there as I is minimal.

    East germanic tribes, would be in dominace R1a and I1 , mix in the gothic and vandal types into the migratory mix and what do we have.
    If R1a was indeed spread by Corded Ware, which seems all too likely since it has been found in Corded Ware sites (Eulau), then it stands to reason that it was present as far west as the Rhine as early as the Copper Age. My opinion is that there may be a minor Celtic component to R1a, which would explain the levels in Auvergne and also Cantabria. But, until we have a closer resolution of the local R1a subclades in these regions, we will not know for certain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Depends on what you believe..I believe that R1a was in eastern germans, scandinavian tribes prior to any 'slavic" movements and that these east german migrations "picked up" other haplotype on the migration journey.
    If as people think these East german tribes had no R1a and where entirely I , then the haplotypes in italy and southern france would indicate that no germanic people settled there as I is minimal.

    East germanic tribes, would be in dominace R1a and I1 , mix in the gothic and vandal types into the migratory mix and what do we have.
    I don't believe that R1a is either "slavic" or East Germanic. There are a lots of unexplained R1a in western Europe like that found in the Pasiegos or the Parisian R1a (9,5%). Auvergne fits in this category

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The burgundians settled in western switzerland and west of that into france, i think its dijon country

    They never reached provence
    They reached the northern part of Provence (Avignon)

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I don't believe that R1a is either "slavic" or East Germanic. There are a lots of unexplained R1a in western Europe like that found in the Pasiegos or the Parisian R1a (9,5%). Auvergne fits in this category
    was not the parisi tribe in paris area also in england and that it came from norway?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    was not the parisi tribe in paris area also in england and that it came from norway?
    The Parisii of Yorkshire had their roots in Gaul not the other way round. I don't see any links with Norway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I don't believe that R1a is either "slavic" or East Germanic. There are a lots of unexplained R1a in western Europe like that found in the Pasiegos or the Parisian R1a (9,5%). Auvergne fits in this category
    I'd like to ask it the other way around: why should there be no Celtic R1a? After all, the Celts were obviously an Indo-European people, and even if we only assume that Proto-Celtic spread by the way of a small warrior elite somehow took over the copper age or bronze age trade netwroks in the Atlantic region, then there should be some R1a in Western Europe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'd like to ask it the other way around: why should there be no Celtic R1a? After all, the Celts were obviously an Indo-European people, and even if we only assume that Proto-Celtic spread by the way of a small warrior elite somehow took over the copper age or bronze age trade netwroks in the Atlantic region, then there should be some R1a in Western Europe.
    I absolutely agree. Proto Celtic could have been spread by a small groups of R1a aristocrats warrior from Central Europe. I don't believe that the Proto Celts speakers were exclusively R1a but I'm pretty sure that R1a was a major haplogroup among tribes such as Boii, Cantabri, Astures, Arverns, Parisii and Halsttat Celts.
    R1b could have been there well before the arrival of Celtic languages as the Basque R1b shows.

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    Scythians primary R1a M-17
    Scythians,
    Clavdius. Olympiodoros, Πρισκος of Byzantium, write about them.
    they cognate Scythians as Goths, Scythian and Goth is same for them,
    compare also the Great Scythia of Balkans, where Herodotus places the Getae,
    compare also that Getae are mentioned far to North of Iran where R1a M-17 is enough,
    a queen that moved from east of Caspian sea to Balkans, from there to Norway,

    that R1a M-17 in his way west bring mess and carry other HG with him,


    Celts, maybe did not moved from North but from South,
    Maybe they moved from minor asia to Central Europe,
    the only that can help us is Grammar,
    example how Past tense is Formed? or how cases forms etc,
    the Pass of Celts to Europe might be Before Hettit or same time,


    Luca Cavalli-Sforza Piazza claima that Kurgan and Yamnaa was not a Scythian but a minor Asian culture,

    the move west of Scythians must be connected with the split of P-Q languages,

    the only problem in that is Caucasus M-17 Turkic speaking,

    meaning that Scythians probably as Getae entered balkans from North and stop at Dinaric Alps a Celto Illyrian area, and find exit to Scandinavia,
    After fall of Roman empire they pushed them shelfs more west reaching Brittish Isles,
    with a chance to carry I Hg with them.

    Isolated r1a M17 exist also in Spain,

    so the possibility that Minor asian R1b (or R1a) moved from Balkans to Kurgan Yamnaa etc ,
    and from there moved west and an about 2000 - 1000 BC entrance from North of R1a that pushed R1b might be possible,
    also the case of R1b not Be so IE as we believe (only some subclades).
    also a HG that is not searched is J2 the south corridor from France to India.

    a probably inner name of Dutch Deutsch Dacian of what Greek called Thracian-Getae and what Latins named Germanic.
    Last edited by Yetos; 29-12-11 at 02:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    If R1a was indeed spread by Corded Ware, which seems all too likely since it has been found in Corded Ware sites (Eulau), then it stands to reason that it was present as far west as the Rhine as early as the Copper Age. My opinion is that there may be a minor Celtic component to R1a, which would explain the levels in Auvergne and also Cantabria. But, until we have a closer resolution of the local R1a subclades in these regions, we will not know for certain.
    yes , I believe it was the corded ware and it stayed north of the danube and west of the dniepr initially.

    it would have been a germanic , celtic-germanic and nordic strain after leaving the caspian sea area

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    Thanks for all the helpfull responses!

    I understand that tracing my ancestry back 1000ish years is hard (if not impossible!) but my DNA results and 12th century documentation seems to give me the most solid lead yet. I'd be curious to know what group the small french R1a subclade belongs to...

    Would I be mistaken in thinking that R1a needs a lot of more research as far as understanding and discovering new subclades is concerned?

    Thanks again!
    TCR1AG

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    read from post #4 of this thread, it caould be from the east germanic burgundians
    I'm afraid that doesn't answer my question.

    I am wondering on what study the Auvergne frequency of ~5% R1a is based. I am also wondering how that was extrapolated to the big ~5% shaded area in France.

    What was the sample size? Seems to me we should know these things before we get too excited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I absolutely agree. Proto Celtic could have been spread by a small groups of R1a aristocrats warrior from Central Europe. I don't believe that the Proto Celts speakers were exclusively R1a but I'm pretty sure that R1a was a major haplogroup among tribes such as Boii, Cantabri, Astures, Arverns, Parisii and Halsttat Celts.
    R1b could have been there well before the arrival of Celtic languages as the Basque R1b shows.
    The trouble with all that is there is really nothing in the distribution of the ancient Celtic homelands relative to the modern distribution of R1a to justify it, except the assumption that R1a is somehow responsible for the origin of all Indo-European languages.

    R1b clearly dominates in the old homelands of the Celts; further than that, R-P312 and its subclades dominate in the old homelands of the Celts. R1a is scarce. What there is of it can often be accounted for historically, e.g., Norwegian Vikings in Scotland, Slavs in central and southern Europe.

    I am still wondering upon what kind of sample size from what study or studies we are basing our excitement over this French aberration (small as it is) of around 5% R1a.

    Notice that R1a is so scarce in western Europe (the old stomping ground of the Celts) that a finding of around 5% in one rather de-populated area of France gets everyone in a tizzy of "Kurgan" ecstasy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post

    R1b clearly dominates in the old homelands of the Celts; further than that, R-P312 and its subclades dominate in the old homelands of the Celts. R1a is scarce. What there is of it can often be accounted for historically, e.g., Norwegian Vikings in Scotland, Slavs in central and southern Europe.
    The frequency of R1b P312 in Austria is quite problematic if we assume that R1b P312 spread from Central Europe to western Europe.


    The high frequency of R1b P312 in former non IE area (Basque country, Aquitania, Iberia...) is quite problematic too


    Notice that R1a is so scarce in western Europe (the old stomping ground of the Celts) that a finding of around 5% in one rather de-populated area of France gets everyone in a tizzy of "Kurgan" ecstasy.
    There are distributions of R1a in western Europe (Northern Spain, île de France) that aren't explained by Germanic or Slavic migrations. A celtic origin is just a solution among other. Can we discuss it on this thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The trouble with all that is there is really nothing in the distribution of the ancient Celtic homelands relative to the modern distribution of R1a to justify it, except the assumption that R1a is somehow responsible for the origin of all Indo-European languages.

    R1b clearly dominates in the old homelands of the Celts; further than that, R-P312 and its subclades dominate in the old homelands of the Celts. R1a is scarce. What there is of it can often be accounted for historically, e.g., Norwegian Vikings in Scotland, Slavs in central and southern Europe.

    I am still wondering upon what kind of sample size from what study or studies we are basing our excitement over this French aberration (small as it is) of around 5% R1a.

    Notice that R1a is so scarce in western Europe (the old stomping ground of the Celts) that a finding of around 5% in one rather de-populated area of France gets everyone in a tizzy of "Kurgan" ecstasy.
    I think that the case for R1a being connected indeed with the Proto-Indo-Europeans is fairly solid. At least, I would say that the connection with Corded Ware and R1a is pretty obvious: it wasn't in Europe before the Corded Ware period. Which is why I want to ask: what alternative is there realistically to the Kurgan hypothesis? I don't see one, at least if you realize that PIE must have been a language of the Copper Age.
    Last edited by Taranis; 29-12-11 at 22:39.

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