New R1a map

All France was conquered by Germanic tribes: Franks, Burgunds, Visigoths, Normans... These people had only a minimal genetic impact on the overall population. For example there are only traces of I1 and R1a in what used to be the Visigothic kingdom in south-west France. How could Burgundy have over 5% of R1a when even Baden-Württemberg and Alsace have less than 5% ? Then, let's not confuse the modern region of Burgundy, centered on the medieval Duchy of Burgundy, with the ancient Kingdom of Burgundy, where the actual Burgunds settled, and which encompassed all the land from modern Burgundy all the way down to Provence along the Rhone, as well as the French Alps and Switzerland. If there is any Germanic haplogroup that is present in surprisingly high density in that region, it is R1b-S21 (R1b-U106), not R1a.

The Franks had the biggest impact over Gaul, be it genetic, cultural, linguistic or political; but that is because their homeland had been adjacent to Gaul (around modern Belgium) for several centuries, and they just annexed Gaul to their existing kingdom, while all the other tribes moved in from farther away, in smaller numbers. Yet even the Franks' genetic legacy is barely visible beyond the top north of France. The Parisian region is hardly Germanic. Even Alsace, where a Germanic language is traditionally spoken, barely has 6% of I1 and 5% of R1a (about half of Macedonia, and less I1 than the Celtic strongholds of Wales and Ireland).

Then it is not because East Germany has a lot of R1a today that East Germanic tribes necessarily did too. What many people fail to understand is that when a mass migration happens from one place to another, like the Völkerwanderung of the late Antiquity and early Middle Ages, people and their genes leave a region and new people move in to fill the vacuum. I believe that a good part of the R1a in East Germany (and of course Poland) today arrived with the Slavs after Germanic tribes left. Germanic people obviously all have/had R1a, but I doubt that ancient tribes like the Goths or Burgunds had over 30% of R1a (10-15% seems more reasonable).

First of all , the burgundians where in that area for over 1000 years, their capital was dijon IIRC, next to auvergne, they moved into the netherlands/brabant area around the 15th century. So they had ample time to sow their seeds.

In regards to R1a , what you are bascially saying is that the east germanic tribes had no contact with slavs at all. ( what about sarmatians ? ) If this is what you are saying, then I could agree with you. Then the case is what haplogroup where East germanic tribes.
 
The Austrians fit well within the West Slavic region, encompassing what used to be the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Austrians are closer to the Slovenes, Czechs, Slovaks and Hungarians than to anybody else. Genetically the Austrians are more West Slavic than Germanic.

Not the Tyrolese ( western austrians ) unless you know something else
 
First of all , the burgundians where in that area for over 1000 years, their capital was dijon IIRC, next to auvergne, they moved into the netherlands/brabant area around the 15th century. So they had ample time to sow their seeds.

Your approach of history is too political. You just look at the borders from a textbook perspective. The Low Countries did become Burgundian in the 15th century, but that was through marriage and it did not really involve a movement of people from Burgundy to the Low Countries (except a few administrators). Auvergne was never part of Burgundy, be it the early medieval kingdom or the late medieval duchy.

In regards to R1a , what you are bascially saying is that the east germanic tribes had no contact with slavs at all. ( what about sarmatians ? ) If this is what you are saying, then I could agree with you. Then the case is what haplogroup where East germanic tribes.

Having contacts isn't the same thing has welcoming foreigners into your tribe and give them your daughters as wives to spread their own lineages. I am not aware of any fusion between ancient Germanic tribes and Slavic or Iranian tribes, except for the Goths who settled north of the Black Sea.
 
Not the Tyrolese ( western austrians ) unless you know something else

Yeah, ok, but that's a very small part of Austria, more Swiss than truly Austrian.
 
If I look at the places in western/atlantic Europe where R1a exceeds 5% (in particular Auvergne, Cantabria - Scottish R1a might be of Viking origin, but what speaks against that is the fact that the distribution of R1a in Scotland is non-consistenst with other typically Germanic markers), it certainly begs the question if there isn't also a small Celtic component to R1a. I have no idea as to when this component arrived - wether it was with Proto-Celtic speakers, or wether it arrived the spread of iron-working across the Celtic-speaking world: either factors would have been from areas where a small concentration of R1a would make sense. The problem however, if assuming that these hotspots in formerly Celtic lands are indeed of Celtic origin, is explaining why they appear like exactly that: local peaks.

One general observation I would make here is - regarding R1a as a whole in Europe, and regarding the Slavic migrations: if you look at the situation, there seem to be two layers of R1a penetration: the first, which seems to explain levels in excess of 10% - seems to be originated with the Corded Ware Culture, whereas the second layer seems to correspond with the Slavic migrations.
 
Another possibility is continuity between Kurds and Persians, as Persians have similar levels of R1a. That's possibly more expected, as Kurds speak an Iranian language.

Thats a possibility but I do not think this is the answer. The Kurdish R1a has surprisingly no flowing connection with that found in Iran. Surprisingly the Region of Northwest Iran, where the Kurds make the large majority, has less R1a. On the contrary R1b and G2a* are dominating in this Region. R1a among Kurds has its largest spread in East Anatolia and not in West Iran like someone would expect.

Also a study the R1a in East Anatolia is typical for that among Armenians and other Caucasians. This suggests a different origin of the R1a among Kurds.

Also if you look at other Maps, it gets clearly obvious how the R1a among Iranians seems to be a gene flow from Central Asia. We see clearly a barrier between the Kurdish and Iranian R1a. I assume a different, not Slavic and not Iranian in sense of Persians (other Iranic tribe is possible) origin of R1a* among Kurds.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/R1a1a_distribution.png
 
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This map looks quite realistic.

PD: I have problems to access the website.
 
I was thinking that since the Vandals had a close alliance with the alans ( sarmatians ) and these followed the vandals to the west. There markings where G2 and R1a .

usually tribes stick together instead of dispersing with their allies. Is there any G2 in that averagne area?
 
I was thinking that since the Vandals had a close alliance with the alans ( sarmatians ) and these followed the vandals to the west. There markings where G2 and R1a .

usually tribes stick together instead of dispersing with their allies. Is there any G2 in that averagne area?

There is a lot of Neolithic G2a3 in Auvergne. But it's not the kind of G that I would associate with the Alans (they would have been either G1 or G2a1).
 
Two other possibilities remain which I think are even less likely: that R1b peoples were the first Indo-Europeans, and that neither R1a nor R1b were significant parts of the initial Indo-European admixture.
Yeah, that's very plausible. Nobody knows the real true. I don't want to exclude any theory, but the gathered 'sources' which are more accepted by nowadays standards speak against this theory.

The thing with R1a that it has been associated with the ancient Indo-European cultures in Europe. Like Corded Ware (Danubian and Nordic areas of western Germany, Denmark and southern Sweden) and Kurgan (Ukraine and South Russia) cultures in Europe and Andronovo culture in Central Asia. They found some R1a remnants in these ancient sites.
 
If there is any Germanic haplogroup that is present in surprisingly high density in that region, it is R1b-S21 (R1b-U106), not R1a.

Do you have the data for Burgundy or any recent map of R1b-S21?
 
Do you have the data for Burgundy or any recent map of R1b-S21?

I am that marker and what I have been told, it represents frisia in the netherlands along the coast to jutland ( denmark), down through belgium lands, through germany into the central alps to lombardy and veneto.
it was the old danish amber trail the ancients used and the cimbri people knew about

Jutland/nordic amber and baltic amber are different under the microscope , and both are found in northern Italy.

I agree I would also like a retailed idea on where this marker is
 
I have added a shade for frequencies between 2.5% and 5%.
 
It was a great idea to implement finer resolution below 10%. Map is much richer and more interesting now. Thanks
 
Much better now.
 
I'm very interested what software is used to create this kind of maps. I like to use them on a regional basis for distribution maps out of geodata from GEDCOM-files.
 
I'm very interested what software is used to create this kind of maps. I like to use them on a regional basis for distribution maps out of geodata from GEDCOM-files.

Just Photoshop. All scrupulously handmade. :)
 
Is the map correct for Liguria. I recently read that since the Genoese had holdings in the sea of Azov, most of crimeria until 1473, a permanent area in para ( next to byzantine ) , the greek islands ( lemnos and cyprus and others ), yet they have 0% R1a.............seems strange



Wiki ( and other sites ) has that over 50% of croatian R1a percentage comes from the island people ( northern adriatic ) and istria ......... curious ..........lubarni maybe
 

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