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Thread: New map of R1b-S21 (U106)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    How do you know it? Did you ever heard some folks speaking the PIE language? I don't exclude the possibility that you were there … maybe in your dreams…
    Sorry, no. The evidence clearly is in the treatment of the palatovelars across the various branches of Indo-European. How could they suddenly be conditioned into velar sounds if they originally were fricatives? Bear in mind that sound laws have no exceptions. If the sounds originally were fricatives as in Satem, all fricatives of the same value would be turned to velars. This clearly isn't the case, and it only makes really sense if you assume that they originally were palatovelar sounds.

    There is also the treatement of other sounds from PIE, such as aspirated sounds (Bh, Dh, Gh, G´h, Gwh). They are treated very differently in various branches of Indo-European. For instance, Classical Greek preserved aspiration, but it's obviously a Centum language and as such it merged the palatovelars with the plain velars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The only thing that this tells us is that the Centum/Satem split was already complete by the time these texts were written.
    And this also tells us that the proto-aryans were Satem speaking folks.

    I think that the modern Germanic folks are an admixture of the nordic Celtic tribes (R1b), native nordic Euros and Satem speaking 'Aryans' that were related to the same aryans who invaded India!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Maybe is R-S21 not a Germanic but the most NORDIC Celtic subclade of the more archaic Celtic European R1b haplogroup. That the most of R-S21 folks are Germanic speakers in tongue doesn't mean they are Germanic.

    I think that the modern Germans are partly Celtic, native European and partly aryan in origin. I know that being an aryan is a loaded term especially in Germany, but you can't deny the facts.
    What is this term nordic celtic ?. I was always taught , nordic in scandinavian lands, and celtic originated in southern germany and the Alps.
    I would love to know if the celtic hit the mecklenburg or Hinterpommern areas.

    Anyway, thanks for the map , i can now say I am 10-15% of the area where my ancestors ( immediate and past ) came from

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Maybe is R-S21 not a Germanic but the most NORDIC Celtic subclade of the more archaic Celtic European R1b haplogroup. That the most of R-S21 folks are Germanic speakers in tongue doesn't mean they are Germanic.

    I think that the modern Germans are partly Celtic, native European and partly aryan in origin. I know that being an aryan is a loaded term especially in Germany, but you can't deny the facts.
    If that is true then Germany and the Netherlands are only 15-20% Germanic... As far as language is concerned, considering that hg I is pre-Indo-European, I think that Proto-Germanic language could have originated in R1b-S21, and that the spread of R1b-S21 to Scandinavia Germanised the region. It makes more sense to say that Germanic people originated with S21, because it is known historically (well, archaeologically) that Germanic culture expanded from North Germany and Jutland, and that linguistically Proto-Germanic is directly related to Proto-Italo-Celtic, also of the R1b branch. Culturally, the ancient Germanic mythology is also closely linked to the Celtic and Greco-Roman ones. I think that all the evidence is there to say that Proto-Germans were indeed R1b, and mostly R1b-S21, with some L21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    What is this term nordic celtic ?. I was always taught , nordic in scandinavian lands, and celtic originated in southern germany and the Alps.
    I think that Goga just meant "North Celtic".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Culturally, the ancient Germanic mythology is also closely linked to the Celtic and Greco-Roman ones. I think that all the evidence is there to say that Proto-Germans were indeed R1b, and mostly R1b-S21, with some L21.
    Don't forget that R1a was there probably before. Scandinavia and Germany could have been Indo European speaking since the Corded ware and before the spread of S21.
    Also ancient Germanic mythology is also linked to Slavic or Hinduist Mythology (R1a)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    And this also tells us that the proto-aryans were Satem speaking folks.

    I think that the modern Germanic folks are an admixture of the nordic Celtic tribes (R1b), native nordic Euros and Satem speaking 'Aryans' that were related to the same aryans who invaded India!
    You are making too much of an assumption here equating Haplogroups with linguistic affiliation. R1a is known to have already been in Europe by the time of the Corded Ware Culture (~2600 BC).

    If the R1a-bearing peoples of Battle Axe Culture (the Scandinavian offshot of Corded Ware) would have already been Satem speakers, there should be Satem borrowings into Proto-Germanic, which there are not. The general assumption is that the Centum/Satem split must have occured later, early in the 2nd millennium BC, because we already have Greek (a Centum language) attested from the mid-to-late 2nd millennium BC (Mycenean Greek).

    In my opinion, the people of Corded Ware spoke a language that must have been very close to PIE, primarily because of the number of what appear to be PIE borrowings into the Finnic languages.

    Besides, if the Satem split occured as early as you think it was, how do you explain the existence of Tocharian, a Centum IE language, in western China?

    Likewise, R1b can be hardly considered exclusively "Celtic", given it's wide scope and magnitude that includes considerable areas that never saw any significant Celtic settlements. The Celts certainly were majorly carriers of R1b, but that does not make R1b "Celtic".

    It's tempting to think R1a = Satem, R1b is = Centum, but if you look at the distribution of R1a, the Greeks for instance (for are also speakers of Centum languages) are carriers of R1a to nearly the same extend as the Scandinavians.

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    indeed

    in fact if check a variance of R1a we find it in Greece Norway and belarus and in Iranic and India
    remember that Belarus has also E-V13

    they moved independent or by hand?

    following macciamo they moved independent,
    but the existance of E-v13 in belarus who also shares same variance with Greece and also in Scandinavia who has tracks of south europe then is possible that a r1a branch was centum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If that is true then Germany and the Netherlands are only 15-20% Germanic... As far as language is concerned, considering that hg I is pre-Indo-European, I think that Proto-Germanic language could have originated in R1b-S21, and that the spread of R1b-S21 to Scandinavia Germanised the region. It makes more sense to say that Germanic people originated with S21, because it is known historically (well, archaeologically) that Germanic culture expanded from North Germany and Jutland, and that linguistically Proto-Germanic is directly related to Proto-Italo-Celtic, also of the R1b branch. Culturally, the ancient Germanic mythology is also closely linked to the Celtic and Greco-Roman ones. I think that all the evidence is there to say that Proto-Germans were indeed R1b, and mostly R1b-S21, with some L21.
    Sorry, but I have to straighten up a few issues there:

    Proto-Germanic is not as closely related with Italo-Celtic as the Italic languages and Celtic languages are towards each other. In particular the shift of "p" to "kw" before another "kw" in the same word was not done by Proto-Germanic (though it was probably done by a few other Italo-Celtic languages such as Lusitanian and Venetic). This shift is best visualized in the word for five ("Penkwe" in PIE):

    Latin "quinque"
    Old Irish "Cóic"
    Gaulish "Pimpetos"
    Welsh "Pump"

    This is somewhat paradoxial because the P-Celtic languages at a later point shifted "kw" to "p". In any case, in contrast Proto-Germanic retained "p" before "kw", and shifted "p" to "f" and "k" to "h", which is why it's "fi(h)ve" in English.

    The only real commonality that (Pre-)Proto-Germanic has with Italo-Celtic (other than a significant number of Celtic borrowings, which in my opinion occured later, during the contact with the Hallstatt period, see the "Celtic and Pre-Germanic" thread for that) is the fact that it is actually a Centum language. This, I think, also curiously actually fits with the R1b subclades, because U-106 diverged first from P-312.

    I must also add this: I admit the term "Pre-Germanic" has confused a lot of people. More accurate would be "Proto-Germanic before the First Germanic sound shift", but that term is obviously too unwieldy.

    Also, let's not forget that the Beaker Culture (the most probably source of R1b-U106, in my opinion) extended into Jutland. In any case, I kind of think Goga has a sort of a point saying that the Germanic languages are "hybrid", but he does not exactly understand the skope of that and wrongly labels the Corded Ware people as "Satem", which by that time they certainly were not. Where (in my opinion) Corded Ware influence is evident in Germanic is with metal words like "gold" and "silver", which have cognates in Balto-Slavic but not in Italo-Celtic (compare Latin "aurum" and "argentum") The critical part here is that in particular the word "Gold" is subject to the Centum/Satem split (compare Latvian "Zelts" and Russian "Zoloto").

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Greece is a very bad example. Greeks have more R1b than R1a and they're predominately E and J2 folks. R1a is only at the 5th place in their DNA haplogroup distribution, after J2, E, R1b and I.


    Exactly. It's widely accepted that the Bell-Beaker culture was a proto-Celtic one. So I think that they were predominately R1b folks. I've got this from wiki: “However Bell Beakers have now been radiocarbon dated to 2900 to 1800/1700 BC, which would make them contemporary with Corded Ware.

    They moved northwards into the land of the Corded Ware culture folks, and I think that the Corded Ware culture (R1a) had links with the 'Kurgan' cultures (R1a) in the northern Caucasus area.

    So Bell-Beaker folks lived at the same time as Corded Ware folks. Maybe that was the time when the admixture emerged. I think that Aryan Satem speaking tribes related to Kurgan were in Germany before the Celtic tribes, but got eventually 'replaced' by them after the proto-Celts (R1b) moved northwards.

    Or maybe they met each other in Germany when one group moved into Germany from the east and other group moved into Germany from the southwest...

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    Yes, maybe they met each other in Germany when one group moved into Germany from the east (R1a) and other group moved into Germany from the southwest (R1b). And after that collision emerged a new proto-Germanic ethnicity was born!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    It's widely accepted that the Bell-Beaker culture was a proto-Celtic one. So I think that they were predominately R1b folks. I've got this from wiki: “However Bell Beakers have now been radiocarbon dated to 2900 to 1800/1700 BC, which would make them contemporary with Corded Ware.
    The wide geographic extend (into Italy and Jutland) and also the earliness of Beaker-Bell makes it very unlikely for carriers of the Proto-Celtic language, but it is a good candidate for introducing R1b in Western Europe.

    Also, consider that although they coexisted in the same time, the spreading pattern of Beaker Bell and Corded Ware was not simultaneous, and Beaker-Bell arrived in southern Scandinavia about 500-1000 years after Corded Ware.

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    Your work on this is much appreciated, Maciamo. Thanks.

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    R-U106 peaks in northern Europe. Its frequency (including the R-U198 sublineage) is 36.8% in the Netherlands, 20.9% in Germany and Austria, 18.2% in Denmark, 18.2% in England, 12.6% in Switzerland, 7.5% in France, 6.1% in Ireland, 5.9% in Poland, 5.6% in north Italy 4.4% in Czech Republic and Slovakia, 3.5% in Hungary, 4.8% in Estonia, 4.3% in south Sweden, 2.5% in Spain and Portugal, 1.3% in eastern Slavs, 0.8% in south Italy, 0.6% in Balkan Slavs, 0.5% in Greeks (i.e. 2 of 193 Cretans, and no mainland Greeks), 0.4% in Turks, 0% in Middle East.

    These percentages are from December 2010


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    I love this input. My Schulz R1b U 106, L 48 came from Lower Silesia in present day Poland, of course most ethnic Germans were forced out at the end of WWII, leaving me to wonder if the map would have been very different before the war? Any insight on this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    R-U106 peaks in northern Europe. Its frequency (including the R-U198 sublineage) is 36.8% in the Netherlands, 20.9% in Germany and Austria, 18.2% in Denmark, 18.2% in England, 12.6% in Switzerland, 7.5% in France, 6.1% in Ireland, 5.9% in Poland, 5.6% in north Italy 4.4% in Czech Republic and Slovakia, 3.5% in Hungary, 4.8% in Estonia, 4.3% in south Sweden, 2.5% in Spain and Portugal, 1.3% in eastern Slavs, 0.8% in south Italy, 0.6% in Balkan Slavs, 0.5% in Greeks (i.e. 2 of 193 Cretans, and no mainland Greeks), 0.4% in Turks, 0% in Middle East.

    These percentages are from December 2010

    I often wonder what your posts mean. You just copy and past from other websites or post links without any explanation. Did you find any inconsistencies somewhere, because I don't ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I often wonder what your posts mean. You just copy and past from other websites or post links without any explanation. Did you find any inconsistencies somewhere, because I don't ?
    sorry , it was from the u152, i thought i better redirect the answer here as the conversation was moving to u106

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    2 germanic influences: Frison-Anglo-Saxon-Jutes (high for Y-R1b-U106, not so for Y-I1, and West-Norwegian Vikings (high for Y-I1 not so for R1b-U106: it's clear enough in Scotland too. Maybe wa have here the differences of respective weights between A-S settlements and Vikings Settlement (there were Danes Vikings in Danelaw but I suppose they was closer to A-S)
    right?

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    it's simple, why:
    we see nowaday in some languages, the continuity of 'palatizations' of consonnants: K>TCH>CH>SH or or K>TCH>TS>S + G<DJ>ZH or G>DJ>DZ>Z an so on -
    but languages 'çatem' or 'satem' that yet possess S,Z,ZH or SH (..) have no chance to change them on a back way to K or G

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    it's simple, why:
    we see nowaday in some languages, the continuity of 'palatizations' of consonnants: K>TCH>CH>SH or or K>TCH>TS>S + G<DJ>ZH or G>DJ>DZ>Z an so on -
    but languages 'çatem' or 'satem' that yet possess S,Z,ZH or SH (..) have no chance to change them on a back way to K or G
    I answer me:
    sorry, this post is not in the right place! excuse me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    How do you know it? Did you ever heard some folks speaking the PIE language? I don't exclude the possibility that you were there … maybe in your dreams…
    it's simple, why:
    we see nowaday in some languages, the continuity of 'palatizations' of consonnants: K>TCH>CH>SH or or K>TCH>TS>S + G<DJ>ZH or G>DJ>DZ>Z an so on -
    but languages 'çatem' or 'satem' that yet possess S,Z,ZH or SH (..) have no chance to change them on a back way to K or G

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    the Y-DNA of 'viking' origin presents a big enough discrepancy depending of the places, that put me to think they were a litlle enough number of settlers very often (males, fewer females yet, but not everywhere according to mt DNA) - the explanations a red here are all interesting:
    for french Sicily: little number (too much I1 and I2b - for Okrney-shetland; little number (too much surprising Y from Asia too low I1 -) for Lancashire: too much R1a to low I1 and so on...
    as a whole I think that these Vikings had more I1 and more R1a and fewer R1b-S21/U106 than the continental Germanics - with this base, and the 'founder effect' on a too narrow basis or fpopulation we could explain a lot, not?
    I believe that recent events had had weaker effect on populations than ancient ones (even id they have to be taken in account)

  23. #48
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Since the Viking invasion of Normandy, many events could have change the distribution of Ydna such as the fact that some of them leaved Normandy in 1066 and later for England, the Hundred years war (a French historian spoke about a "Hiroshima in Normandy" during the XVth century), the plague, the edict of Nantes (Many Huguenot originated in Upper Normandy), the colonization of New France and the Allies bombing in 1944. Also, France because of its legislation lacks Ydna sample which can bias the studies.

    the Y-DNA of 'viking' origin presents an irregular enough distribution depending of the places, that put me to think they were a litlle enough number of settlers very often (males, fewer females yet, but not everywhere according to mt DNA) - the explanations a red here are all interesting:
    for french Sicily: little number (too much I1 and I2b - for Okrney-shetland; little number (too much surprising Y from Asia too low I1 -) for Lancashire: too much R1a to low I1 and so on...
    as a whole I think that these Vikings had more I1 and more R1a and fewer R1b-S21/U106 than the continental Germanics - with this base, and the 'founder effect' on a too narrow basis or fpopulation we could explain a lot, not?
    I believe that recent events had had weaker effect on populations than ancient ones (even id they have to be taken in account) -
    of I1 in Brittany and Wales and ireland, I suppose the most of them came with Vikings (the remote regions of Wales present about 2 or 3% of I1, 7% is the national mean surely taking in account the >12-14% of Central Eastern Wales where I feel a germanic influence that phenotypes seam to confirm (I have not the %'s for S21/U106 there, helas... it would be interesting if we have the respective %'s of I1 and I2b (I2b could be partially Bell-Beaker or Wessex for me) in Western versus Eastern
    Brittany
    I should accept more easily S21 as a partially but rare celtic HG, born by some Belgii tribes -
    for I2b I believe it's proto-Celtic proto-Germanic and involved in the all movements that took place during the metal ages and during the Völkerwanderung - old in Europe but not in place in Harz-Sachsen-Thuringen -founder effect of a population came from Central Europe during the Chalcolithic and linked to Bell-beakers?) - I'm surprised by the map of MACIAMO about Southern France where he placed very few I2b West of the Rhône river (because as an hypothesis a think the Rhône West of Provence could have been a boulevard for Bell beakers and after that for Urnfield People) - it's a pity we have so little DNA form France regions!





    R1b L21 can be either native to Normandy or English or even Norse.





    Indeed, ancient Britons might have been I1 as well. I believe that the Britons brought I1 to Brittany.
    I don't feel like that, but who knows?

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I don't feel like that, but who knows?
    sorry but I 've make a technical mistake somwhere because my answer about irregular repartition of Viking DNA is mixed with the post of SPONGETARO.
    I beg your pardon

  25. #50
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Country: United States



    Greetings, new member, U-106 with paternal ancestry traced to Southern Finland.

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