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Thread: New map of R1b-S21 (U106)

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    Arrow New map of R1b-S21 (U106)



    My fertile streak isn't over yet. Here is a brand new map of haplogroup R1b-S21, associated with the migration of Germanic peoples, especially tribes originating around the modern Netherlands, North-West Germany, Denmark and Norway, such as the Anglo-Saxons, the Franks, the Lombards, as well as the Danish and Norwegian Vikings.

    Note the hotspots around the Belgian provinces of Hainaut and Luxembourg, as well as in the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, obviously of Frankish origin. Another hotspot is lower Austria, probably of Lombardic origin.

    Lower frequency around the Harz mountains in Germany, due to the higher percentage of I2b.


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    Many thanks for sharing this, Maciamo! I've been wondering to ask you if you could make a map of the major R1b subclades, but you basically beat me to it. This more refined representation of the distribution also makes a strong case for R1b-U106 being indeed predominantly Germanic. This is most visible in Britain. I had speculated in the past if the Belgae or Britons were carriers of R1b-U106, but the distribution in Britain and France decisively speaks against that (I would expect more R1b-U106 in Wales, Cornwall and northern France if there was a connection).

    What should be added however is that R1b-U106 has also been found in the Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany, which belongs into the Urnfield Culture. Also, what relates with this is U106 in Austria is quite peculiar. I also disagree about the interpretation of a connection with the Lombards, instead I would rather look for a connection with the Bavarii/Bajovarii - who's origins in the migration period are in turn are somewhat obscure, though they are generally thought to have emerged from the remnants of the Markomanni in Bohemia. But, I must admit that this scenario is somewhat unsatisfying as an explanation.

    Another aspect that comes to my mind after contemplating a tad longer is in Britain: is the border really so clear-cut with Wales/Cornwall and the Scottish Highlands? It looks really unlikely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Many thanks for sharing this, Maciamo! I've been wondering to ask you if you could make a map of the major R1b subclades, but you basically beat me to it. This more refined representation of the distribution also makes a strong case for R1b-U106 being indeed predominantly Germanic. This is most visible in Britain. I had speculated in the past if the Belgae or Britons were carriers of R1b-U106, but the distribution in Britain and France decisively speaks against that (I would expect more R1b-U106 in Wales, Cornwall and northern France if there was a connection).
    The only place in Roman Britain that wasn't taken over by the Anglo-Saxons is indeed Wales, and there is definitely a clear absence of R1b-S21 there (less than 0.1%). I am not 100% sure for Cornwall as the data is still sparse. There were a few members S21 in Cornwall on the FTDNA Project, but the actual percentage may be less than what is shown on the map.

    What should be added however is that R1b-U106 has also been found in the Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany, which belongs into the Urnfield Culture. Also, what relates with this is U106 in Austria is quite peculiar. I also disagree about the interpretation of a connection with the Lombards, instead I would rather look for a connection with the Bavarii/Bajovarii - who's origins in the migration period are in turn are somewhat obscure, though they are generally thought to have emerged from the remnants of the Markomanni in Bohemia. But, I must admit that this scenario is somewhat unsatisfying as an explanation.
    Well, the Lombards did settle in Lower Austria before overrunning northern Italy. It has been speculated that the Bavarii may not even have been a Germanic tribe at all, but a corruption of the name Boii, the Celtic tribe occupying Bavaria and Bohemia before the Germanic migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Ancient Britons from England supposedly sought refuge in Wales, and there is definitely no R1b-S21 in Wales (less than 0.1%). I am not 100% sure for Cornwall as the data is still sparse. There were a few members S21 in Cornwall on the FTDNA Project, but the actual percentage may be less than what is shown on the map.
    That is a very compelling point, I agree. If one considers this, the genetic impact of the Anglo-Saxons was indeed tremendous in England.

    Well, the Lombards did settle in Lower Austria before overrunning northern Italy. It has been speculated that the Bavarii may not even have been a Germanic tribe at all, but a corruption of the name Boii, the Celtic tribe occupying Bavaria and Bohemia before the Germanic migrations.
    Well, regarding the Bavarii, there is also the possibility that they were formed from remnants of the Marcomanni, the Germanic tribe that invaded Bohemia in the 1st century BC and conquered the Boii. Both Strabo and Ptolemy use the the mixed-Celtic/Germanic term "Boiohaemum" ("Boii Home") for Bohemia, and Strabo additionally uses the term "Boiian desert". In so far, the Bavarian/Boii connection seems quite probable, but in my opinion it was not that direct.

    Bavaria itself (at least, Bavaria south of the Danube) was inhabited in Antiquity by a different Celtic people, the Vindelici, who were conquered by the Romans and probably became quickly latinized.

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    Interesting map, Maciamo. What particular reason is there for the low percentage of R1b-S21 in what appears to be central-east Germany? I was thinking Sorbs but they're further East than that are they not?

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    Thanks a lot for this map Maciamo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    That is a very compelling point, I agree. If one considers this, the genetic impact of the Anglo-Saxons was indeed tremendous in England.
    We've been getting additional confirmation of this via Eurogenes as well as via presentations by Sir Walter Bodmer about the ongoing research of the People of the British Isles project. It's looking like, even autosomally, the Anglo-Saxons had a significant impact, with the impact decreasing around the Scottish Highlands, Wales, and Cornwall, and with peaks in places like East Anglia and Kent. Maciamo's map of R1b-U106 reflects this well. One curiosity is the decrease in Lincolnshire.

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    seems that Normandy has less R1b-S21 than Northern Provence...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Maciamo's map of R1b-U106 reflects this well. One curiosity is the decrease in Lincolnshire.
    That is because the percentage of haplogroup I is higher around Lincolnshire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    seems that Normandy has less R1b-S21 than Northern Provence...
    Indeed, that is surprising. It looks like the Danes didn't have so much impact in Normandy itself (as opposed to England or north-west Sicily), or had particularly lots of I1 compared to R1b and R1a. All the data I have for Normandy shows very little R1b-S21 and R1a, much less than I1 or even I2b. Most of the Norman R1b is L21 or S28.

    Another weird thing is that Wales has about 7% of I1 and 2% of I2b, but no R1a and no Germanic R1b. So either ancient Britons already had I1 and I2b, or some Germanic people came to Wales only with I1 and I2b.

    In north-west Sicily, where the Normans settled, there is also a lot of I1 (over 15% in some areas) and I2b (occasionally over 5%), but the percentage of R1a is actually lower than elsewhere in Sicily, and R1b isn't noticeably higher.

    I am now wondering if the Normans didn't have an unduly high percentage of I1, a frequency unobserved anywhere nowadays, maybe higher than 70 or 80%, with at least 10% of I2b. Or perhaps is it just a founder effect among the Norman nobility, who could all be descended from a just a few noble lineages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That is because the percentage of haplogroup I is higher around Lincolnshire.
    Talking about Haplogroup I, the correlation of Haplogroups R1b-U106 and I1 produces something interesting observations. Based on the distribution of U106, I think one can make a compelling case that not all I1 on the British Isles can be of Germanic origin, and that there may be a small Celtic component to I1 as well (explaining the concentrations of I1 above 5% in Ireland and Wales, in particular), which may have spread from Central Europe into the Atlantic region with the spread of iron working across the Celtic-speaking world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Talking about Haplogroup I, the correlation of Haplogroups R1b-U106 and I1 produces something interesting observations. Based on the distribution of U106, I think one can make a compelling case that not all I1 on the British Isles can be of Germanic origin, and that there may be a small Celtic component to I1 as well (explaining the concentrations of I1 above 5% in Ireland and Wales, in particular), which may have spread from Central Europe into the Atlantic region with the spread of iron working across the Celtic-speaking world.
    Or simply that some Germanic people had far more I1 than R1b-S21. That is still the case of the Swedes today, but it could have been true for the Normans as well, and judging from the data for Iberia and Eastern Europe, also for the Goths, Vandals and Suebi. It is to be expected for the Goths and Vandals, as both originated in Sweden, where there is in average 3 times more I1 than R1b-S21. Some parts of Sweden have more I2b than R1b-S21, which explains why places like Moldova or Ukraine, or parts of Spain (Cantabria, Valencia) have no R1b-S21, but a good deal of I1 and I2b. Incidentally, these places in Spain are also pockets of R1a, which suggests that the Germanic people who settled there came as a I1-I2b-R1a "package". Nowadays, northern Sweden is almost the only region left with such high proportions of I1, I2b and R1a compared to R1b-S21. But that could have been different 1600 years ago.

    I think that there was once a great genetic rift between West Germanic and North Germanic people. The former had evidently a very high percentage of R1b (S21 + L21) with some I1, I2b and R1a. The latter were almost exclusively I1, I2b and R1a. Over the last 1500 years, it seems that both groups converged, with R1b people moving towards Scandinavia (but perhaps little movement the other way round).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Indeed, that is surprising. It looks like the Danes didn't have so much impact in Normandy itself (as opposed to England or north-west Sicily), or had particularly lots of I1 compared to R1b and R1a.
    Since the Viking invasion of Normandy, many events could have change the distribution of Ydna such as the fact that some of them leaved Normandy in 1066 and later for England, the Hundred years war (a French historian spoke about a "Hiroshima in Normandy" during the XVth century), the plague, the edict of Nantes (Many Huguenot originated in Upper Normandy), the colonization of New France and the Allies bombing in 1944. Also, France because of its legislation lacks Ydna sample which can bias the studies.



    All the data I have for Normandy shows very little R1b-S21 and R1a, much less than I1 or even I2b. Most of the Norman R1b is L21 or S28.
    R1b L21 can be either native to Normandy or English or even Norse.


    Another weird thing is that Wales has about 7% of I1 and 2% of I2b, but no R1a and no Germanic R1b. So either ancient Britons already had I1 and I2b, or some Germanic people came to Wales only with I1 and I2b.

    Indeed, ancient Britons might have been I1 as well. I believe that the Britons brought I1 to Brittany.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Maybe is R-S21 not a Germanic but the most NORDIC Celtic subclade of the more archaic Celtic European R1b haplogroup. That the most of R-S21 folks are Germanic speakers in tongue doesn't mean they are Germanic.

    I think that the modern Germans are partly Celtic, native European and partly aryan in origin. I know that being an aryan is a loaded term especially in Germany, but you can't deny the facts.

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    If you take West Asian as Aryan, then of course they are part of it. But not only them, also the vast majority of Europeans are partly Aryan. But perhaps I didn't understand you...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    If you take West Asian as Aryan, then of course they are part of it. But not only them, also the vast majority of Europeans are partly Aryan. But perhaps I didn't understand you...
    Maybe the proto-Celts were the native Indo-European speakers, because they speak Indo-European languages. But I don't think they were the same ancient Aryans that invaded the Indian subcontinent for instance or were responsible for the Aryan subcultures in Euroasia.

    I do consider it as a possibility that the ancient Aryans were part of the Indo-European language family, but not all Indo-Europeans were part of the Aryan family. Like some West Asians are part of the Indo-European family but not part the European family. Not all Indo-European speaker are European or West Asian. Some of them are European, some of them are west Asian and some of them are even Indian. Indo-European speakers are genetically not identical to each other. There's a big differentiation among them.

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    I believe that the ancient Aryans folks spoke a Satem language of the more archaic Indo-European language family.

    Avestan and Sanscrit were all Satem languages.

    There are many Satem words in the Germanic languages. But according to many people German belongs to a Centum subgroup.

    Brother in

    French - le frère -} Centum
    Italian - fratello -} Centum
    Spanish - hermano
    Portuguese - irmão

    but in

    German - der bruder
    Dutch - broer
    Norwegian/Swedish - bror
    Russian - brat -} Satem
    Kurdish - bra -} Satem

    So maybe Germans are an admixture of the native Europeans, Celtic speakers (R1b) and aryans that spoke a Satem language.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I believe that the ancient Aryans folks spoke a Satem language of the more archaic Indo-European language family.

    Avestan and Sasctrit were all Satem languages.

    There are many Indo-European Satem words in the Germanic languages. But according to many people German belongs to a Centum subgroup.

    Brother in

    French - le frère -} Centum
    Italian - fratello -} Centum
    Spanish - hermano
    Portuguese - irmão

    but in

    German - der bruder
    Dutch - broer
    Norwegian/Swedish - bror
    Russian - brat -} Satem
    Kurdish - bra -} Satem
    I'm sorry to destroy your hypothesis but you are clearly unaware of what "Centum" and "Satem" actually really means. None of the words actually show any Centum/Satem characteristics.

    What Centum/Satem really means is the treatment of three specific consonants found in Proto-Indo-European (called palatovelars):

    k´ g´ g´h

    In the Centum languages (ie Celtic, Germanic, Greek, Italic and Tocharian) these become merged with the plain velar series (k, g, gh). In contrast, in the Satem languages (Armenian, Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranic), these are turns into s- and z-like sounds. This is perhaps best examplified by the Proto-Indo-European word for "horse" (Ek´wos) in various Indo-European languages.

    Centum:
    Celtiberian "Ekuos"
    Gaulish "Epos"
    Old Irish "Ech"
    Scots Gaelic "Each"
    Manx Gaelic "Eagh"
    Welsh "Ebol"
    Breton "Ebeul"
    Anglo-Saxon "Eoh"
    Gothic "Aihws"
    Greek "Hippos"
    Latin "Equus"
    Lusitanian "Icco-"
    Tocharian A "Yuk"
    Tocharian B "Yakwe"

    Satem:
    Avestan "Aspa-"
    Kurdish "Hesp"
    Old Persian "Asa-"
    Sanskrit "Ashva"
    Hittite "Aswa"
    Luwian "Asuwa"
    Thracian "Esvas"

    I have to add a few notes here:

    - Many modern IE languages no longer have cognates with this word.
    - In Greek, as well as some Italic (Oscan, Umbrian) and the P-Celtic languages (Gaulish, Brythonic), "Kw" was shifted to "P".
    - In the Germanic languages, "K" was shifted to "H" due to the Germanic sound shift.

    Another example would be the word for "hundred":

    English = "Hundred"
    Breton = "Kant"
    Irish = "Céad"
    Scots Gaelic = "Ceud"
    Latin = "Centum"
    Greek = "Ekato"

    Avestan = "Satem"
    Latvian = "Simts"
    Sanskrit = "Shata"
    (most Slavic languages) = "Sto"

    As you can see, the Germanic languages are firmly Centum languages, and not Satem ones. If you want more examples, I can provide them. The word for "brother" is unaffected by the Centum-Satem split. If you take a look at some other IE languages:

    Centum:

    Welsh - "Brawd"
    Scots Gaelic - "Bràthair"
    Irish - "Bráthair"
    Classical Greek - "Phrater"

    Satem:

    Latvian - "Brālis"
    Lithuanian - "Brolis"

    What you noticed with the modern Romance languages is the fact that in Latin (and other Italic languages), the intial "Bh" of Proto-Indo-European was rendered as "F". Hence, it's rendered as "Frater" into Latin.

    Also, regarding the usage of the term "Aryan", early linguists (19th century!) used the term interchangably with "Indo-European". In modern usage, it generally refers only to the Indo-Iranic languages or just the Iranic languages alone.

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    With all due respect but I do understand what "Centum" and "Satem" actually really means.

    The differences between Centum and Satem are not only because of some vowel and consonant changes. There're many words that both groups don't share with each other.

    I've got this frim wiki: "Balto-Slavic is largely satem but evidences centum development in some words, suggesting that "Satemization" was incomplete or operated according to different principles than in the other Satem languages."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum-satem_isogloss

    So there can be a 'Satemization' or 'Centumization' of languages!


    Also Centum languages are "nominative" and "accusative". But not all Satem languages are "nominative" and "accusative". Some West-Iranic languages, like Kurdish, are "ergative" in nature.
    According some scholars the Proto-Indo-European language was an "ergative" language, but some scholars refute this hypothesis.
    "The first system of noun declension which appeared in Proto-Indo-European, was ergative."

    http://babaev.tripod.com/archive/article10.html


    So Centum languages are "nominative" and "accusative". But some Satem languages are "ergative".

    Grammatical relations in kurdic languages : http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/uhlcs/LE...ei/14-haig.pdf
    The ergative construction in kurdish : http://www.jstor.org/pss/615012

    Fact is that the Rigvedas were written in Sanscrit and Gathas in Zoroastrian scriptures were witten in Avestan. Both langauegs are Satem.

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    The differences between Centum and Satem are not only because of some vowel and consonant changes. There're many words that both groups don't share with each other.

    I've got this from wiki: "Balto-Slavic is largely satem but evidences centum development in some words, suggesting that "Satemization" was incomplete or operated according to different principles than in the other Satem languages."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum-satem_isogloss

    So there can be a 'Satemization' or 'Centumization' of languages!


    Also Centum languages are "nominative" and "accusative". But not all Satem languages are "nominative" and "accusative". Some West-Iranic languages, like Kurdish, are "ergative" in nature.

    According to some scholars the Proto-Indo-European language was an "ergative" language, but some scholars refute this hypothesis.

    http://versita.metapress.com/content...2/fulltext.pdf
    http://www.reference-global.com/doi/...83110825992.31


    "The first system of noun declension which appeared in Proto-Indo-European, was ergative."

    http://babaev.tripod.com/archive/article10.html

    So Centum languages are "nominative" and "accusative". But some Satem languages, like Kurdish, are "ergative".


    Grammatical relations in Kurdic languages: http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/uhlcs/LE...ei/14-haig.pdf
    The ergative construction in Kurdish: http://www.jstor.org/pss/615012
    Kurdish linguistic a brief overview: http://www.uni-bamberg.de/fileadmin/...cs_a_brief.pdf


    Fact is that the Rigvedas were written in Sanscrit and Gathas in Zoroastrian scriptures were witten in Avestan. Both langauegs are Satem.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    The differences between Centum and Satem are not only because of some vowel and consonant changes. There're many words that both groups don't share with each other.

    I've got this frim wiki: "Balto-Slavic is largely satem but evidences centum development in some words, suggesting that "Satemization" was incomplete or operated according to different principles than in the other Satem languages."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum-satem_isogloss

    So there can be a 'Satemization' or 'Centumization' of languages!
    Sorry, did you even read what I wrote? The change is not just "some vowel and consonant changes". This is much more fundamental. Sound laws have no exceptions.

    Also Centum languages are "nominative" and "accusative". But not all Satem languages are "nominative" and "accusative". Some West-Iranic languages, like Kurdish, are "ergative" in nature.

    According some scholars the Proto-Indo-European language was an "ergative" language, but some scholars refute this hypothesis.
    Stop throwing around words like these without even really knowing what they genuinely mean. It's the first time I've seen anybody claim Proto-Indo-European was an ergative language. Virtually all Indo-European languages are accusative, and those that show signs of ergativity clearly have developed this secondarily.

    In any case, I fail to see how this relates to genetics and haplogroups.

    Fact is that the Rigvedas were written in Sanscrit and Gathas in Zoroastrian scriptures were witten in Avestan. Both langauegs are Satem.
    The only thing that this tells us is that the Centum/Satem split was already complete by the time these texts were written. Please consider that Satem is NOT the original state, and neither is it in Centum. However, the sound in the Centum languages is generally closer to the original than in Satem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Stop throwing around words like these without even really knowing what they genuinely mean. It's the first time I've seen anybody claim Proto-Indo-European was an ergative language. Virtually all Indo-European languages are accusative, and those that show signs of ergativity clearly have developed this secondarily.

    In any case, I fail to see how this relates to genetics and haplogroups.
    Did you checked my references?

    http://babaev.tripod.com/archive/article10.html

    http://versita.metapress.com/content...2/fulltext.pdf



    The Indo-European folks even in Europe are not the same and have different origins. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

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    The ergative and active hypotheses for Proto-Indo-European - http://www.reference-global.com/doi/...83110825992.31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    However, the sound in the Centum languages is generally closer to the original than in Satem.
    How do you know it? Did you ever heard some folks speaking the PIE language? I don't exclude the possibility that you were there … maybe in your dreams…

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I did not see them because you edited your post afterwards. However, I find the case for ergativity not very convincing at all. As I said, there is no evidence for ergativity whatsoever in most branches of Indo-European, even if these quite plausibly and likely had contact with Ergative languages. It just makes no sense.

    The Indo-European folks even in Europe are not the same and have different origins. That's what I'm trying to tell you.
    Short answer: no.

    Longer answer: There are obviously substrate influences which obviously created considerable differences between various branches of IE, but if you say "they have different origins" what point is there to argue for the existence of a Proto-Indo-European language in the first place? If you claim they have different origins, the argument for a PIE language goes overboard... which doesn't really make any sense either.

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