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Thread: New map of R1b-S28 (U152)

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    Arrow New map of R1b-S28 (U152)



    There was already a map of this haplogroup on U152.org, but I wasn't entirely satisfied by it as it sometimes conflicted with the data from Cruciani et al. (2010) and Myres et al. (2010), or with the frequencies for other haplogroups. Then, I thought it would be better to have a map at the same format as the others, using the Eupedia colours. So here it is.


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    Again, many thanks Maciamo. I promtly have a question: where exactly is that hotspot in northern Italy?

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    Thanks Maciamo.
    It will be really difficult to explain why U152 didn't spread into Scandinavia and Netherlands at all together with rest of R1bs.
    Must be one of the youngest R1b hg?

    If Romans were so rich in U152, they didn't do much input in Iberia, ha?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Thanks Maciamo.
    It will be really difficult to explain why U152 didn't spread into Scandinavia and Netherlands at all together with rest of R1bs.
    Must be one of the youngest R1b hg?

    If Romans were so rich in U152, they didn't do much input in Iberia, ha?
    You have a very good point about U152 in Iberia. I have my doubts as well that U152 is associated with the Romans.

    - I have the hypothesis that U152 originated in Urnfield times, and spread later with the La-Tene culture. U152 clearly is linked with La-Tene, but not exclusively so.

    - The Lusatian Culture, which in itself is an offshot of Urnfield, might be responsible for the spread of U152 in Poland. If this is the case, some of the later East Germanic peoples (Burgundians, Vandals) might be also carriers of U152. In particular, the Vandals would explain U152 in North Africa.

    - One might speculated that U152 in Britain originated from the Anglo-Saxons, but if you look at the distribution of U152 in Belgium and in northern Germany (or rather, the absence of U152 in the Saxon homeland), it's far more likely that British U152 originated from the Belgic tribes that migrated into Britain.
    Last edited by Taranis; 09-08-11 at 18:54. Reason: ludicrous typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Again, many thanks Maciamo. I promtly have a question: where exactly is that hotspot in northern Italy?
    In the Po valley in Emilia-Romagna, roughly between Milano and Bologna, where the frequency of R1b can exceed 70%, and at least 60% of it is S28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Thanks Maciamo.
    It will be really difficult to explain why U152 didn't spread into Scandinavia and Netherlands at all together with rest of R1bs.
    Must be one of the youngest R1b hg?

    If Romans were so rich in U152, they didn't do much input in Iberia, ha?
    A great majority of "Romans" in Iberia were not from the Italian Peninsula but from other parts of the empire, including Slavic and North African lands. Apparently, this was also the case in the British Isles.

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    Please reload the page. I have modified a bit the distribution in North Italy to match better the overall R1b frequency, and removed the hotspot in the Belgian province of Liège as it was based on a too small same size.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    You have a very good point about U152 in Iberia. I have my doubts as well that U152 is associated with the Romans.

    - I have the hypothesis that U152 originated in Urnfield times, and spread later with the La-Tene culture. U152 clearly is linked with La-Tene, but not exclusively so.

    - The Lusitanian Culture, which in itself is an offshot of Urnfield, might be responsible for the spread of U152 in Poland. If this is the case, some of the later East Germanic peoples (Burgundians, Vandals) might be also carriers of U152. In particular, the Vandals would explain U152 in North Africa.

    - One might speculated that U152 in Britain originated from the Anglo-Saxons, but if you look at the distribution of U152 in Belgium and in northern Germany (or rather, the absence of U152 in the Saxon homeland), it's far more likely that British U152 originated from the Belgic tribes that migrated into Britain.
    Your comments on the Lusitanians and U152 are interesting. Would you have any references on this as regards U152 in Poland?

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    What is the explanation for the high frequency in northern Corsica?

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    Personally, I think that R1b-S28's presence in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Scandinavia is simply due to the progressive movement of German people to these areas over the centuries. Except for Poland, which was heavily colonised by the Germans, other areas have a very low frequency of S28 (around 1% or max. 2%). After all, the Germans who settled in Poland came from various parts of Germany, not just from the border.

    As for the S28 in Iberia, North Africa, Greece, Anatolia or the Balkans, it is quite evidently of Roman origin. I don't expect the Romans to have contributed to more than 10% of the modern lineages in conquered territories only reachable by sea (the Italian peninsula and Gaul are a different story). Among this maximum 10%, only about 20% of it (= 2% of the total) would have been R1b-S28, judging from the average frequency for Italy. That is exactly what we observe.

    I really cannot see how Germanic tribes could have left up to 3 or 4% of R1b-S28 in Iberia but almost no R1b-S21, only traces of I2b and barely 1 to 3% of I1. The Romans had 500 years to leave some genes in Iberia. Vandals, Suebi and Visigoths had a smaller impact altogether, perhaps 5% of modern lineages, but divided between I1, I2b, R1a and R1b-S21. There might be occasionally one S28 of Germanic origin out of 10 or 20 in Iberia, but that's negligible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    What is the explanation for the high frequency in northern Corsica?
    Colonisation of the north of the island by people from North Italy. Corsica has a tiny population (300,000), so a founder effect among the settlers in the Bronze Age or Roman period would have pretty much that effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgundis View Post
    Your comments on the Lusitanians and U152 are interesting. Would you have any references on this as regards U152 in Poland?
    Sorry, I really did a Freudian slip there. I was a tad in a hurry when I made this post earlier, but I actually meant "Lusatian Culture".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    In the Po valley in Emilia-Romagna, roughly between Milano and Bologna, where the frequency of R1b can exceed 70%, and at least 60% of it is S28.
    That is very interesting. I personally suspect that such a high frequency would have a combined cummulative source, rather one single origin.

    - The Ligurians, as well as the pre-Etruscan population of Etruria (I noticed that the concentration in Tuscany is also very high) may have been carriers of U152 to a considerable degree.

    - The Celts invaded northern Italy circa 4th century BC, and also settled considerably in this area, notably Milano (Mediolanum).

    - Movements of slaves during the Roman period (I'm a bit doubftul on the real extend of this one, though).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Personally, I think that R1b-S28's presence in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Scandinavia is simply due to the progressive movement of German people to these areas over the centuries. Except for Poland, which was heavily colonised by the Germans, other areas have a very low frequency of S28 (around 1% or max. 2%). After all, the Germans who settled in Poland came from various parts of Germany, not just from the border.
    The problem I have with the idea that U152 stems from German settlements is that it does not really match the historic pattern of German settlements. I also wonder if, U152 did indeed arrive, is the absence of U152 in former East Prussia the result of the removal of settlers from East Prussia.

    The reason I came up with this is mainly due to Urnfield. If U152 was spread by Urnfield, we would expect such a presence and distribution in Poland. And at the same time Urnfield would also help accounting for a sizable degree for Italian U152.

    As for the S28 in Iberia, North Africa, Greece, Anatolia or the Balkans, it is quite evidently of Roman origin. I don't expect the Romans to have contributed to more than 10% of the modern lineages in conquered territories only reachable by sea (the Italian peninsula and Gaul are a different story). Among this maximum 10%, only about 20% of it (= 2% of the total) would have been R1b-S28, judging from the average frequency for Italy. That is exactly what we observe.
    I really cannot see how Germanic tribes could have left up to 3 or 4% of R1b-S28 in Iberia but almost no R1b-S21, only traces of I2b and barely 1 to 3% of I1. The Romans had 500 years to leave some genes in Iberia. Vandals, Suebi and Visigoths had a smaller impact altogether, perhaps 5% of modern lineages, but divided between I1, I2b, R1a and R1b-S21. There might be occasionally one S28 of Germanic origin out of 10 or 20 in Iberia, but that's negligible.[/QUOTE]

    I think you have a valid point about the origin of U152 in Iberia, especially the comparison of Roman and Germanic impact. Besides I was thinking mainly of North Africa with U152 and the Vandals, however I concede that your argument regarding Roman origin there still holds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The problem I have with the idea that U152 stems from German settlements is that it does not really match the historic pattern of German settlements. I also wonder if, U152 did indeed arrive, is the absence of U152 in former East Prussia the result of the removal of settlers from East Prussia.
    I wouldn't worry too much about that. The data for Poland comes mostly from Myres et al. which only divided Poland in West, North East and South. It's hard to make an accurate map with that. Only East Poland had 0% (but I placed it in 1-5% because the FTDNA project had a few members in East Poland). I could redesign the map to follow the parts of Poland that used to be Germany, but that will remain hypothetical until we have more data.

    The reason I came up with this is mainly due to Urnfield. If U152 was spread by Urnfield, we would expect such a presence and distribution in Poland. And at the same time Urnfield would also help accounting for a sizable degree for Italian U152.
    The Urnfield Culture is indeed a possible candidate for the original spread of S28/U152. I have long associated S28 with La Tène and Hallstatt, but Urnfield is merely the forerunner of these cultures, so it makes sense too.

    Austria seems to have been "purged" from most of its S28, probably by the Huns, Lombards and others that invaded the region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I wouldn't worry too much about that. The data for Poland comes mostly from Myres et al. which only divided Poland in West, North East and South. It's hard to make an accurate map with that. Only East Poland had 0% (but I placed it in 1-5% because the FTDNA project had a few members in East Poland). I could redesign the map to follow the parts of Poland that used to be Germany, but that will remain hypothetical until we have more data.
    I see your point. I have generally wondered on the exact impact of the expulsions of Germans from historic eastern Germany, and the pre-1945 genetic makeup in the region, and also the impact of medieval population movement.

    The Urnfield Culture is indeed a possible candidate for the original spread of S28/U152. I have long associated S28 with La Tène and Hallstatt, but Urnfield is merely the forerunner of these cultures.
    Well, my point really is, if Urnfield was already spreading U152, we should expect some U152 in Poland to have originated from the Lusatian Culture, since as mentioned, the Lusatian Culture was a northeastern outgrowth of Urnfield. The problem of course is, the exact ethnic nature of the Lusatian Culture is pretty uncertain, partly because it was so early. By the way, I'm also surprised that your map has relatively little U152 in Catalonia. I've seen past maps of U152 which had higher concentrations of it in Catalonia, which ostensibly mirrored the maximum extend of Urnfield.

    One issue that bugs me up regarding Hallstatt is the U106 peak in Austria since it doesn't really fit into the pattern. If however Austrian U106 is solely of Germanic origin and a result of the migrations period, one doesn't have to worry about that.
    Last edited by Taranis; 10-08-11 at 00:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry, I really did a Freudian slip there. I was a tad in a hurry when I made this post earlier, but I actually meant "Lusatian Culture".
    I think you left out the main culture for the area

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golasecca_culture

    Which represent the heart of the R1b - S28 ( U152) , that is from Pavia, Varese, Piacenza, Milan and Mantua. It is clearly an etruscan/ligure/celtic mix. Note map in link is only a lingiustic map and not a tribal map.

    http://www.societasviaromana.net/Col.../architaly.php

    Corsica would represent the ancient Etruscan followed by centurians of Ligurian migration. It was said the republic of Genoa could only control the northern part of the isalnd , while the Corse clan ruled the other

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I think you left out the main culture for the area

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golasecca_culture

    Which represent the heart of the R1b - S28 ( U152) , that is from Pavia, Varese, Piacenza, Milan and Mantua. It is clearly an etruscan/ligure/celtic mix. Note map in link is only a lingiustic map and not a tribal map.

    http://www.societasviaromana.net/Col.../architaly.php

    Corsica would represent the ancient Etruscan followed by centurians of Ligurian migration. It was said the republic of Genoa could only control the northern part of the isalnd , while the Corse clan ruled the other
    I was talking about Poland (Lusatian Culture), not about Italy there. But in regard for Italy I agree. Regarding the Golasecca Culture, it should be added that just like Hallstatt and the Lusatian Culture, it was an offshot of Urnfield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I see your point. I have generally wondered on the exact impact of the expulsions of Germans from historic eastern Germany, and the pre-1945 genetic makeup in the region, and also the impact of medieval population movement.
    Nothing excludes that some S28 in Poland dates from Urnfield, and the rest from the Germanisation of Poland from the late Middle Ages to 1945.


    By the way, I'm also surprised that your map has relatively little U152 in Catalonia. I've seen past maps of U152 which had higher concentrations of it in Catalonia, which ostensibly mirrored the maximum extend of Urnfield.
    Unfortunately data about S28 in Catalonia is sparse. The region wasn't tested by either Myres or Cruciani et al., and all the other regions tested in Spain had between 1 and 4% of S28 (except 6% in Valencia). Iberianroots has the most extensive commercial data for Spain, but only reports 1% of S28/U152 for Catalonia, out of a very reasonable 193 samples. Most of the Catalan R1b is M269 or S116 (50% of the population) and SRY2627 (22%). It could be that some of the M269 members didn't test for subclades, but even so, there is at present 20x more SRY2627 than S28, so I don't see how S28 could exceed 5-6%, or 10% at the very most.


    One issue that bugs me up regarding Hallstatt is the U106 peak in Austria since it doesn't really fit into the pattern. If however Austrian U106 is solely of Germanic origin and a result of the migrations period, one doesn't have to worry about that.
    There surely was a massive settlement of Germanic people in Austria, otherwise there is no reason that the region should be German speaking nowadays. It was traditionally a strongly Celtic, then Latin speaking region. If North Italy and France still speak Romance languages despite the Franks, Burgunds, Visigoths and Lombards, the only way Austria would have become German-speaking at the boundary of the Latin and Slavic worlds is through the implantation of a very large Germanic population (which IMHO is represented by R1b-U106 because Austria doesn't have that much I1 or I2b).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I was talking about Poland (Lusatian Culture), not about Italy there. But in regard for Italy I agree. Regarding the Golasecca Culture, it should be added that just like Hallstatt and the Lusatian Culture, it was an offshot of Urnfield.
    my error , i misunderstood

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post


    There surely was a massive settlement of Germanic people in Austria, otherwise there is no reason that the region should be German speaking nowadays. It was traditionally a strongly Celtic, then Latin speaking region. If North Italy and France still speak Romance languages despite the Franks, Burgunds, Visigoths and Lombards, the only way Austria would have become German-speaking at the boundary of the Latin and Slavic worlds is through the implantation of a very large Germanic population (which IMHO is represented by R1b-U106 because Austria doesn't have that much I1 or I2b).
    I still hold the belief that raeti and illyric people occupied Austria
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum

    And that their genetics had some G. The german migration only came in the form of bavarian migration which is why austrians speak a bavarian dialect
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_language
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria...n_and_Austrian

    The interesting thing would be to find the similarity of genetics of bavaria and eastern austria

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    Interesting the distrubition you put for Ireland, are you mapping it along Leath Cuinn versus Leath Mogha?

    It is theorised after all that there was some La Tène influence introduced into northern half of Ireland (Leath Cuinn -- Conn's half) probably from Northern Britain. This can be seen with certain archaelogical items such as Beehive quern stones which are restricted to northern half of Ireland (line drawn from Galway to Dublin)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Nothing excludes that some S28 in Poland dates from Urnfield, and the rest from the Germanisation of Poland from the late Middle Ages to 1945.
    Good points. There is no reason the Haplogroup is there for just a single reason, anyways. That approach almost never works out, anyways.

    Unfortunately data about S28 in Catalonia is sparse. The region wasn't tested by either Myres or Cruciani et al., and all the other regions tested in Spain had between 1 and 4% of S28 (except 6% in Valencia). Iberianroots has the most extensive commercial data for Spain, but only reports 1% of S28/U152 for Catalonia, out of a very reasonable 193 samples. Most of the Catalan R1b is M269 or S116 (50% of the population) and SRY2627 (22%). It could be that some of the M269 members didn't test for subclades, but even so, there is at present 20x more SRY2627 than S28, so I don't see how S28 could exceed 5-6%, or 10% at the very most.
    Yeah, I see your point. The question for Catalonian U152 just came to my mind because the Urnfield Culture extended into Catalonia, and if U152 was indeed connected with Urnfield, we should be able to see it. At the same time, I absolutely agree that it's unlikely to exceed 5%.

    There surely was a massive settlement of Germanic people in Austria, otherwise there is no reason that the region should be German speaking nowadays. It was traditionally a strongly Celtic, then Latin speaking region. If North Italy and France still speak Romance languages despite the Franks, Burgunds, Visigoths and Lombards, the only way Austria would have become German-speaking at the boundary of the Latin and Slavic worlds is through the implantation of a very large Germanic population (which IMHO is represented by R1b-U106 because Austria doesn't have that much I1 or I2b).
    This is a very good point, especially when comparing against the situation in France. We would expecting the area of modern Austria to speak a Romance language of some kind, and since this isn't the case this argues in favour of a large-scale immigration. This is also very elegant because it solves A LOT of problems associated with the distribution of U106 and U152.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I still hold the belief that raeti and illyric people occupied Austria
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum

    And that their genetics had some G. The german migration only came in the form of bavarian migration which is why austrians speak a bavarian dialect
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_language
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria...n_and_Austrian

    The interesting thing would be to find the similarity of genetics of bavaria and eastern austria
    I told you before that there is no evidence that the Norici were Illyrian, and why you still continue to hold that believe despite contrary evidence eludes me. The traditional view is that western Hallstatt was Celtic, but eastern Hallstatt was Illyrian, but this is a 19th / early 20th century view which has actually little basis. The situation in Antiquity is very clear: Noricum was clearly Celtic (by place names, by inscriptions and by what ancient authors wrote about them). If you go to the north into Bohemia, you have a Celtic substratum and recent Germanic newcomers (the Marcomanni and other tribes, who migrated there and subjugated the Boii in the 1st century BC), but there is no evidence of Illyrians.

    Besides, if you assume that Austrian U106 somehow stems from a pre-Celtic population (which I find dubious), you would have to rather seek ties with pre-Germanic or proto-Germanic peoples from the north, rather than the Illyrians from the south. It just makes no sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Interesting the distrubition you put for Ireland, are you mapping it along Leath Cuinn versus Leath Mogha?

    It is theorised after all that there was some La Tène influence introduced into northern half of Ireland (Leath Cuinn -- Conn's half) probably from Northern Britain. This can be seen with certain archaelogical items such as Beehive quern stones which are restricted to northern half of Ireland (line drawn from Galway to Dublin)
    No, it's based on the distribution of S28/U152 members from the FTDNA Ireland Project. It has nearly 5000 members, yet there isn't a single R1b-U152 (or its L2 subclade)in the south.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    In the Po valley in Emilia-Romagna, roughly between Milano and Bologna, where the frequency of R1b can exceed 70%, and at least 60% of it is S28.
    Could you supply a source for that figure as it applies to Emilia Romagna, or explain how it was computed?

    The highest frequencies for R1b that I have seen were in the Di Giacomo et al study, which found a frequency of 76.2% for P*(not R1a) in the Garfagnana in northwest Tuscany. The next highest frequency was in the Val di Non in the Trentino.

    Neither is in Emilia, although it could be argued that the Garfagnana is part of Lunezia, a cultural area that also includes Parma and Modena.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf

    (The map is particularly interesting.)

    The following study does show a high frequency for R1b in Modena, which indeed is in Emilia, but the figure is 67.6%, lower than the Garfagnana and Val di Non figures in DiGiacomo. http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S...082-3/abstract

    Also, this study of the Rimini area of Romagna shows that Emilia, not Romagna, is where these kinds of levels might be found.It is a large sample, and shows a 51% frequency for R1b in the Rimini area.


    http://ychrom.invint.net/upload/iblo...0in%20Romagna%
    20region%20yNorth%20Italyp.pdf

    The only figure I know of for Lombardia as a whole was in the old Scozzari et al study. (61.1%) http://www.volgagermanbrit.us/docume...ozzari2001.pdf I couldn't find the exact source of the data within Lombardia.

    Unfortunately, given the age of some of these studies, U-152 was not typed, but if the over 60% proportion of U-152 for R1b holds, then the Garfagnana and Val di Non are very high in U-152, perhaps higher than in Emilia.

    However, the triangular hotspot on your U-152 map does correspond generally with the area known as "Lunezia", which roughly includes Massa Carrara(north west Tuscany), Emilia from Modena up to Piacenza, and perhaps part of southern Lombardia to the north, and Lucca to the south. http://translate.google.com/translat...=result&resnum. La Spezia, which was sometimes included, is more typically Ligurian, and therefore probably a little lower in R1b. (Genoa-48.3)

    I think Emilia could very well be the "heart" of U-152 in Italy,(with the Val di Non and Garfagnana numbers inflated because of their isolation and the subsequent drift) and you can find evidence for Villanovans, Ligures, Etruscans, and Celts in the area. The group that had the most impact, however, was probably the Ligures.
    Last edited by Angela; 10-08-11 at 23:37. Reason: Trouble posting

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