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Thread: Lack of G2a in Basque

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    Lack of G2a in Basque



    Reading treads I encountered very interesting problem : why there is no G2a in west Pirinei ? G2a is present in whole Europe , except in that region , east Baltic coast, central and northern Scandinavia .Lack of it in east Baltic coast , central and north Scandinavia can be explained by the fact that Neolitic farmers that use to carry G2a havent reached that regions , but that explanation is not god enough for west Pirinei. What is even stranger , that region is mountain , and G2a is elevated exactly in mountain regions : Apenini , Alps , Caucasus , ... Sometimes it is even described like haplogroup of goatbriders . Lack of G2a seems to corespond with spread of Basque ( in Spain and in France ) .
    Haplogroup_G2a ydna.jpg
    if someone can share some light on this mistery , please do .

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    looks like the original R1b P312 people spoke something similar to Basque. Then with the regions G2a/ R1b mixed we got the Celtic language.
    G2a might have spread (alongside R1b U152) the Celtic languages from the Alpes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    looks like the original R1b P312 people spoke something similar to Basque. Then with the regions G2a/ R1b mixed we got the Celtic language.
    G2a might have spread (alongside R1b U152) the Celtic languages from the Alpes.
    Sorry, I think you are making too much of an assumption of a connection between language and Y-Haplogroups. If the language of the R1b-P312 people (very likely the Beaker-Bell Culture) would have been Basque, one would expect there to Basque loanwords in Proto-Celtic, Proto-Germanic and possibly the Italic languages, which simply is not the case. Even the number of Celtic loans into Basque is unlikely small given the extended contact the languages should have had.

    Another problem is that the known evidence of the maximum extend of Basque (or it's ancestor language, Aquitanian), is only a relatively small area, extending as far north as the Garonne river (which corresponds relatively well actually with the map).

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    It's curious because autosomally, the Basques also lack the west-asian component, which peaks in Georgia, just like G2a.

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    Another curiosity is that I2a1a normally correlates with G2a, indicating that I2a1a joined with expanding farmers in the Neolithic and spread accordingly, with Basque Country's high I2a1a and low G2a being the major exception. I wonder if we're just seeing a case of major genetic drift here.

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    It's not impossible they have, at least, around 0.5 -1 % of G2a. The problem could be there aren't enough samples to reflect this, like happens with other haplogroups like I1 (note that they show some Q). However, it's true that the West Asian component seems to be absent, and almost the same if we check Southwest Asian.

    As population, they are the most purest Europeans, although some individuals (mainly Lithuanians) sometimes get even more incredible results.

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    I was able to think only these scenarios :
    1) Genocide (killing or resettling) of old populations by newcomers , but it would mean that I2a1 is not native to region , and also that R1b is comed from region with almoust no G2a
    2) G2a farmers never managed to conquer paleolitic I2a1 in region , only R1b had , but again R1b is coming from region with very low G2a
    3)Maybe lack of G2a that comed with R1b significaly decreased % of G2a in Basque , so it is less then 0,5%
    This could also be significant for origin of R1b : Maybe Basque R1b comed from Africa - but only found R1b there is V88 , so these is unlikly scenario ( Is there some G2a in North Africa ? ) ; Second posibility is that Basque R1b could come from aerias with no G2a like : central and north Scandinavia or Baltic coast or some other , any sugestions?
    Maybe you can find some more scenarios please post

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    I just got another idea : maybe spread of R1b was preceltic , and Celts maybe ones that carried G2a in Spain( from Austria , Switzerland both rich with G2a and also centers of La Tene culture) , but Celts werent able to get in to Basque aerias . This could in a streach mean that La Tene culture was 30-40% G2a , and even that G2a is the one that carried IE languague -Celtic to west Europe , but its nor realy likely

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    Also in Basque graves from 4-5000 years BP there is 17% of mth DNA K , but in graves from 1500 years BP it falls to present 4% , so betwen was setlement of womens with diferent haplogroups .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I just got another idea : maybe spread of R1b was preceltic , and Celts maybe ones that carried G2a in Spain( from Austria , Switzerland both rich with G2a and also centers of La Tene culture) , but Celts werent able to get in to Basque aerias . This could in a streach mean that La Tene culture was 30-40% G2a , and even that G2a is the one that carried IE languague -Celtic to west Europe , but its nor realy likely
    I've said before, there is clear evidence that G2a was in Europe before R1b. We have 0% R1b from two Neolithic sites which today have ~70% R1b and ~40% R1b, respectively. Conversely, we have 2 out of 22 samples of I2a from Treilles, whereas today there is maybe 1-3% of that Haplogroup in the region.

    There's also a statistical argument in favour of this. If we assume for a moment that the samples from Treilles are actually representative of the situation back in the Neolithic (9% I2a, 91% G2a), we can actually go ahead compare the relationship of I2a and G today in the region for comparison. If I may take from Maciamo's database from nearby regions in southern France:

    Auvergne 1% I2a, 9% (10% I2a, 90% G)
    Provence 3% I2a, 7% (30% I2a, 70% G)

    Even if we take the value for Provence, which differs considerably, we still get a reasonably similar distribution of I2a and G towards each other today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Even if we take the value for Provence, which differs considerably, we still get a reasonably similar distribution of I2a and G towards each other today.
    I2a1a and G2a have an affinity which is very interesting. I2a1a in Iberia tends to be a bit more ancient than other I2a1a in places like Sardinia. That could explain why G2a doesn't extend quite into the Basques--as G2a expanded into Europe during the Neolithic, it expanded Eastward and encountered extant I2a1a, which could have spread the opposite direction as its carriers adopted farming from the G2a peoples. That would also explain why Basques are in the unique situation of having a lot of I2a1a and no G2a, while most other places with I2a1a have a lot of G2a, like Sardinia with both the highest levels of I2a1a and the highest levels of G2a in Europe. (There are also plenty of places with high G2a but no I2a1a, which is easily explained of course).

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    may i ask what is the origin of G2a?
    Alps or minor Asia or caucas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I've said before, there is clear evidence that G2a was in Europe before R1b. We have 0% R1b from two Neolithic sites which today have ~70% R1b and ~40% R1b, respectively. Conversely, we have 2 out of 22 samples of I2a from Treilles, whereas today there is maybe 1-3% of that Haplogroup in the region.

    There's also a statistical argument in favour of this. If we assume for a moment that the samples from Treilles are actually representative of the situation back in the Neolithic (9% I2a, 91% G2a), we can actually go ahead compare the relationship of I2a and G today in the region for comparison. If I may take from Maciamo's database from nearby regions in southern France:

    Auvergne 1% I2a, 9% (10% I2a, 90% G)
    Provence 3% I2a, 7% (30% I2a, 70% G)

    Even if we take the value for Provence, which differs considerably, we still get a reasonably similar distribution of I2a and G towards each other today.
    But if G2a maded 90% of neolitic population of Western Europe , wouldnt that exclude that Alans were also G2a ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I2a1a and G2a have an affinity which is very interesting. I2a1a in Iberia tends to be a bit more ancient than other I2a1a in places like Sardinia. That could explain why G2a doesn't extend quite into the Basques--as G2a expanded into Europe during the Neolithic, it expanded Eastward and encountered extant I2a1a, which could have spread the opposite direction as its carriers adopted farming from the G2a peoples. That would also explain why Basques are in the unique situation of having a lot of I2a1a and no G2a, while most other places with I2a1a have a lot of G2a, like Sardinia with both the highest levels of I2a1a and the highest levels of G2a in Europe. (There are also plenty of places with high G2a but no I2a1a, which is easily explained of course).
    I didnt realy understud you , are you saying that G2a entered Europe from Africa ( " expanded eastward" ) ,maybe you ment westward?( from Asia Minor via Balkans , or Caucasus) . I2a1 is not present east of line Germany -Switzerland-Italy so how would it be east ? I use to believe they were Vandalic haplogroup ( empty land after them for century until it is settled by Slavs - reson for no I2a1 in east ) . But I was convinced to abandone that theory , because it didnt sound logical to me anymore . I still dont understand why would Basques had high I2a1 and no G2a ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    may i ask what is the origin of G2a?
    Alps or minor Asia or caucas?
    For G2a in Europe I would bet on Asia Minor - because of hotspots in Greek Macedonia , and Romania , Alps would be a major station before further spread to west , east and south to Italy.But spread from Caucasus is also very plausible . Maybe even simultanious settling from both locations - in that case Black see would be haplogroup G Mare Internum like Mediterranean see was to Romans . They concentrate on high mountins due to they goath breading or escaped to mountins infront of new invaders .
    Thanks to all for answering

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    you need to read the I2a AND i2B thread

    from 1st of June 2011
    [[ The two P37+ are consistent with I2a1 M26+. Note the ( - 12 ) for DYS385
    > which I interpret to mean they only saw an electropherogram peak at 12
    > repeats. I2a1 has a 12,12 modality at DYS385, and other STR repeats are
    > consistent with the modalities of today's I2a1. Balkan I2a2a is modal 14-15
    > at DYS385 and probably too young a clade to have populated France 5000 years
    > ago. I2a1 M26+ on the other hand is one of the older (if not the oldest)
    > clades in haplogroup I as measured by population variance.
    >
    > Today's I2a1 M26+ population is highly concentrated in far western Europe.
    > It basically is the anti-R1a in European frequency --- rarely seen east of a
    > line going north from Venice, Italy. Although very strong in Sardinia and
    > Iberia, I2a1 M26+ continues at decent frequency up the Atlantic seaboard and
    > into the British Isles, but hardly makes an appearance in Scandinavia. Very
    > interesting to see it in SW France 5000 years ago.
    >
    > There are several snps now discovered downstream of M26. One of them, L160,
    > nicely divides I2a1. It would be nice if these researchers have saved some
    > dna and could run L160 on it?
    >
    > KN ]]

    Basically I2a1 is from the west and stops at Venice , I2a2 is from the east
    G2a went from the east to the west

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    Read the thread I2a and I2b .

    it states that G2a went from east to west and that I2a1 went from west to east and stopped at Venice.

    [[ The two P37+ are consistent with I2a1 M26+. Note the ( - 12 ) for DYS385
    > which I interpret to mean they only saw an electropherogram peak at 12
    > repeats. I2a1 has a 12,12 modality at DYS385, and other STR repeats are
    > consistent with the modalities of today's I2a1. Balkan I2a2a is modal 14-15
    > at DYS385 and probably too young a clade to have populated France 5000 years
    > ago. I2a1 M26+ on the other hand is one of the older (if not the oldest)
    > clades in haplogroup I as measured by population variance.
    >
    > Today's I2a1 M26+ population is highly concentrated in far western Europe.
    > It basically is the anti-R1a in European frequency --- rarely seen east of a
    > line going north from Venice, Italy. Although very strong in Sardinia and
    > Iberia, I2a1 M26+ continues at decent frequency up the Atlantic seaboard and
    > into the British Isles, but hardly makes an appearance in Scandinavia. Very
    > interesting to see it in SW France 5000 years ago.
    >
    > There are several snps now discovered downstream of M26. One of them, L160,
    > nicely divides I2a1. It would be nice if these researchers have saved some
    > dna and could run L160 on it?
    >
    > KN ]]

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Read the thread I2a and I2b .

    it states that G2a went from east to west and that I2a1 went from west to east and stopped at Venice.

    [[ The two P37+ are consistent with I2a1 M26+. Note the ( - 12 ) for DYS385
    > which I interpret to mean they only saw an electropherogram peak at 12
    > repeats. I2a1 has a 12,12 modality at DYS385, and other STR repeats are
    > consistent with the modalities of today's I2a1. Balkan I2a2a is modal 14-15
    > at DYS385 and probably too young a clade to have populated France 5000 years
    > ago. I2a1 M26+ on the other hand is one of the older (if not the oldest)
    > clades in haplogroup I as measured by population variance.
    >
    > Today's I2a1 M26+ population is highly concentrated in far western Europe.
    > It basically is the anti-R1a in European frequency --- rarely seen east of a
    > line going north from Venice, Italy. Although very strong in Sardinia and
    > Iberia, I2a1 M26+ continues at decent frequency up the Atlantic seaboard and
    > into the British Isles, but hardly makes an appearance in Scandinavia. Very
    > interesting to see it in SW France 5000 years ago.
    >
    > There are several snps now discovered downstream of M26. One of them, L160,
    > nicely divides I2a1. It would be nice if these researchers have saved some
    > dna and could run L160 on it?
    >
    > KN ]]
    Is this on my adress , because I just said it is not logical that G2a went eastward , and that I2a1 is present only on west

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I didnt realy understud you , are you saying that G2a entered Europe from Africa ( " expanded eastward" ) ,maybe you ment westward?( from Asia Minor via Balkans , or Caucasus) . I2a1 is not present east of line Germany -Switzerland-Italy so how would it be east ? I use to believe they were Vandalic haplogroup ( empty land after them for century until it is settled by Slavs - reson for no I2a1 in east ) . But I was convinced to abandone that theory , because it didnt sound logical to me anymore . I still dont understand why would Basques had high I2a1 and no G2a ?
    Yeah I meant Westward not Eastward. I2a1a is the one that expanded Eastward, opposite of G2a. Basically my point was that the I2a1a peoples who contributed to the modern Basque population must have been close to an area where I2a1a started expanding from, which adopted G2a methods and then spread the opposite direction as G2a. G2a had a head start and therefore exists most places across Europe, whereas I2a1a couldn't make it.

    I wonder if this supports Paleolithic continuity of Basque language? It's feasible that they have continued I2a1a culture and language despite having such ridiculously high levels of R1b. I suppose we still don't know.

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    European R1b subclade is very old. At least it is not younger than the Neolithic age. The Caucasus range has got the highest mountain tops in Europe. Mount Elbrus is much higher than Mont Blanc. So G2a in the Caucasus had more chance to survive than in the Pyrenees. Due to the isolation.

    Maybe before R1b Europe was populated by the I and G2a folks. Maybe in Europe both haplogroups were both equally distributed, but not in Basque land. Maybe there was much more I than G2a in Basque land before R1b arrived at the first place, due to the bottleneck (founder) effect. Maybe the distribution in Basque was more like 80-20 (I-G2a).

    How old is PIE?

    European R1b is maybe 10.000 years old. So maybe it didn't belong to the PIE but to the Neolithic farmers that were not proto-Indo-European at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    European R1b subclade is very old. At least it is not younger than the Neolithic age. The Caucasus range has got the highest mountain tops in Europe. Mount Elbrus is much higher than Mont Blanc. So G2a in the Caucasus had more chance to survive than in the Pyrenees. Due to the isolation.
    Is there any evidence this is really the case? All the older varieties of R1b-M269 are either found only outside of Western Europe or are very rare. Western European R1b-M269 is in turn dominated by R1b-P310/L11, which in turn is very rare outside of Western Europe. I really fail to see how R1b-P310/L11 could be older than Neolithic.

    Maybe before R1b Europe was populated by the I and G2a folks. Maybe in Europe both haplogroups were both equally distributed, but not in Basque land. Maybe there was much more I than G2a in Basque land before R1b arrived at the first place, due to the bottleneck (founder) effect. Maybe the distribution in Basque was more like 80-20 (I-G2a).
    In my opinion, the Neolithic population of Treilles was of mixed hunter-gatherer / farmer stock.

    How old is PIE?
    PIE must have been spoken in the late Neolithic / early Chalcolithic. There are common words for agriculture, cattle, horses and most importantly metals and metal-working.

    European R1b is maybe 10.000 years old. So maybe it didn't belong to the PIE but to the Neolithic farmers that were not proto-Indo-European at all.
    European R1b is decisively younger than 10,000 years, even if the M269 is about 10,000 years old - it wasn't in Western Europe until after 3000 BC. And as I said, none of the Neolithic farmer sites thus far turned up any evidence for R1b in Europe. I do agree however that the Neolithic Farmers were - very likely non-Indo-Europeans.

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    Thank you for your reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Is there any evidence this is really the case? All the older varieties of R1b-M269 are either found only outside of Western Europe or are very rare. Western European R1b-M269 is in turn dominated by R1b-P310/L11, which in turn is very rare outside of Western Europe. I really fail to see how R1b-P310/L11 could be older than Neolithic.


    European R1b is decisively younger than 10,000 years, even if the M269 is about 10,000 years old - it wasn't in Western Europe until after 3000 BC. And as I said, none of the Neolithic farmer sites thus far turned up any evidence for R1b in Europe. I do agree however that the Neolithic Farmers were - very likely non-Indo-Europeans.
    "The point of origin of R1b is thought to lie in Eurasia, most likely in Western Asia.[7] T. Karafet et al. estimated the age of R1, the parent of R1b, as 18,500 years before present.[1]Early research focused upon Europe. In 2000 Ornella Semino and colleagues argued that R1b had been in Europe before the end of Ice Age, and had spread north from an Iberian refuge after the Last Glacial Maximum.[8] Age estimates of R1b in Europe have steadily decreased in more recent studies, at least concerning the majority of R1b, with more recent studies suggesting a Neolithic age or younger.[7][9] However some authors continue to argue for an older date.[10][11]Barbara Arredi and colleagues were the first to point out that the distribution of R1b STR variance in Europe forms a cline from east to west, which is more consistent with an entry into Europe from Western Asia with the spread of farming.[12] A 2009 paper by Chiaroni et al. added to this perspective by using R1b as an example of a wave haplogroup distribution, in this case from east to west.[13] The proposal of a southeastern origin of R1b were supported by three detailed studies based on large datasets published in 2010. These detected that the earliest subclades of R1b are found in western Asia and the most recent in western Europe.[7][9][14] While age estimates in these articles are all more recent than the Last Glacial Maximum, all mention the Neolithic, when farming was introduced to Europe from the Middle East as a possible candidate period. Myres et al. (August 2010), and Cruciani et al. (August 2010) both remained undecided on the exact dating of the migration or migrations responsible for this distribution, not ruling out migrations earlier or later than the Neolithic.[7]"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

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    Ryder and Nicholls: Proto-Indo-European 8,400 years old !!!

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04...-european.html

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    Note that this is apparently about R1b as a whole, where as I was specifically talking about R1b-P310/L11, which dominates Western European R1b.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Ryder and Nicholls: Proto-Indo-European 8,400 years old !!!

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04...-european.html
    Such "exact" datings are HIGHLY dubious because they mostly rely on Glottochronology, which has been largely discredited in comparative linguistics.

    They are, in particular, citing Gray and Atkinson, which, bluntly put, produced complete nonsense.

    The underlying assumption of Glottochronology is that replacments/changes in languages occur at a constant rate. However, it is historically known that languages don't do that. Therefore, this method has been decisively discredited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Note that this is apparently about R1b as a whole, where as I was specifically talking about R1b-P310/L11, which dominates Western European R1b.
    Yes, but they're talking about R1b IN Europe, (European R1b).

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