Lack of G2a in Basque

[Taranis]

I read somewhere Diodorus or Paussania ( Description of Hellas ) that Iberians come from North Africa , i couldnt remember where , and I cant find it ( realy cant read both books again , maybe some time later) , do someone know ?If do please post .

Let me say this, I linguistically absolutely disagree with that North African hypothesis on Iberian. I'm not sure if Basque and Iberian really were related, but there are some similarities, and there definitely were Basque/Aquitanian borrowings into Iberian, or vice versa.

Another issue is: North Africa was populated by Berber peoples, and Iberian (just like Basque) is *very* different from Berber. The Berber languages are part of the Afro-Asiatic family (together with Egyptian, the Semitic languages and a couple of others), which is - from what we can tell, the oldest reliably tracable language family we know.

So are you claiming that Basque is not African or Paleolitic but IE languague from Urnfild ? Please explain I never heard of such view .

I think he suggests that the Basques might be immigrants themselves. Basque, without a doubt, is a non-Indo-European language.

Do you speack about Gaskogne , because it was settled by Basques in fairly recent times - betwen VI and XIV century .Thanks for answering

I think he is refering to the west of modern-day Basque country.

 

[Bodin]

There is also similarity of Iberian artefacts from Chalcolithe with Neolithic artefacts from Morocco - Hogans theory , and posible conection Iberian- Basque languague. Aldo Iberians use to burn their deads like Urnfild ( proto-Celtic ? ) , and had some similarities with cultures east from them in Meditteranea. Maybe Iberians were E1b1b which make 85% of Morocco ?
Thanks for answering

 

[Knovas]

The North African influence in the Iberian Peninsula is not so huge according to admixture analysis. It's possible that thousands of years ago the first inhabitants arrived from North Africa, but they were quickly replaced/absorbed by the Celts and Proto-Celts, and surely before by I2a1a peoples (call it as you want). Then, this is not a serious possibility if we take present Iberians as reference...nothing to do with North Africans.

The Basque language will remain in mistery, it's clearly extremely ancient. Difficult to find a connection with North Africa since they are the most European population nowadays (genetically speaking). There's no language having substantial similarities with Basque, and if it hasn't been yet found, I think it's impossible. Basques probably speak the language of one of the first migrants who settled in Europe (at least, the only ones whose culture survived). We should go too deep in time to find the original people...very difficult.

 

[Taranis]

Regarding North Africa: there is also the question when the Proto-Berbers did arrive in that ara. Clearly they must have been predominantly carriers of E1b1b (since it's very likely the Haplogroup linked with Afro-Asiatic). As I mentioned, Afro-Asiatic is the oldest language family from what we can tell, and (apart from Sumerian, which is an isolated language) it is also bears the oldest attested languages (Old Egyptian and Akkadian). Hence, Proto-Berbers must have arrived very early, which makes the claim of a connection between Basque and/or Iberian and any pre-Berber languages extremely dubious and difficult.

 

[Segia2]

As Taranis wrote, I wanted to say that aquitanian and iberian languages -clearly non IE- could arrive with the Urnenfelder Kultur, although many scholars associate this culture exclusively to IE peoples. The question is, if basques/iberians came from Europe, where is the linguistic evidence outside France/Spain? Hard work for linguists, but -who knows- maybe these rivers -Ebro, Ibar, Ybbs, Ebrach...- are related to basque Ibai (river)..

About basque and iberian -I remember I posted it in other thread-, some numbers:

Ibérico Significado ibérico Protovasco Vasco actual y significado erder / erdi- "mitad / medio"
erdi "mitad / medio" ban " un / uno" *badV / *bade? bat "un / uno" bi / bin un numeral biga bi (antiguo biga) "dos" irur un numeral hirur hiru(r) "tres" laur un numeral laur lau(r) cuatro" borste / bors un numeral bortz / *bortzV? bost (antiguo bortz) "cinco" śei un numeral
sei "seis" sisbi un numeral?
zazpi "siete" sorse un numeral?
zortzi "ocho" abaŕ / baŕ un numeral *[h]anbar ? hamar "diez" oŕkei un numeral
hogei "veinte"

And seriously, I can accept a language can borrow one or two numbers, but not the whole serie.

 

[Bodin]

The North African influence in the Iberian Peninsula is not so huge according to admixture analysis. It's possible that thousands of years ago the first inhabitants arrived from North Africa, but they were quickly replaced/absorbed by the Celts and Proto-Celts, and surely before by I2a1a peoples (call it as you want). Then, this is not a serious possibility if we take present Iberians as reference...nothing to do with North Africans.

The Basque language will remain in mistery, it's clearly extremely ancient. Difficult to find a connection with North Africa since they are the most European population nowadays (genetically speaking). There's no language having substantial similarities with Basque, and if it hasn't been yet found, I think it's impossible. Basques probably speak the language of one of the first migrants who settled in Europe (at least, the only ones whose culture survived). We should go too deep in time to find the original people...very difficult.

No I am not speacking about present Iberians ( supose you think on Spain and Portugal) , I speacked about ancient Iberians, ofcours all of these is speculations and nothing is certain, one new finding can change it all.
What do you mean most European , are you suporting theory about Paleolithe origin of R1b ( in Europe ) , to me most reliablle is theory that it comed during Neolithe somewhere in South and Central Europe from West Asia , and then pushed west by newcoming R1a and some more R1b - Indoeuropean .
Thanks for answering

 

[Bodin]

Regarding North Africa: there is also the question when the Proto-Berbers did arrive in that ara. Clearly they must have been predominantly carriers of E1b1b (since it's very likely the Haplogroup linked with Afro-Asiatic). As I mentioned, Afro-Asiatic is the oldest language family from what we can tell, and (apart from Sumerian, which is an isolated language) it is also bears the oldest attested languages (Old Egyptian and Akkadian). Hence, Proto-Berbers must have arrived very early, which makes the claim of a connection between Basque and/or Iberian and any pre-Berber languages extremely dubious and difficult.

Yes it do but Morrocans do not speack Berber but Arabic , so before Arabs they could speack different languague , which kind of languague do you think Basque was , and who brought it ?If its not IE and not North Afric , maybe I2a1-Paleolithic?

 

[Taranis]

As Taranis wrote, I wanted to say that aquitanian and iberian languages -clearly non IE- could arrive with the Urnenfelder Kultur, although many scholars associate this culture exclusively to IE peoples. The question is, if basques/iberians came from Europe, where is the linguistic evidence outside France/Spain? Hard work for linguists, but -who knows- maybe these rivers -Ebro, Ibar, Ybbs, Ebrach...- are related to basque Ibai (river)..

About basque and iberian -I remember I posted it in other thread-, some numbers:

Ibérico Significado ibérico Protovasco Vasco actual y significado erder / erdi- "mitad / medio"
erdi "mitad / medio" ban " un / uno" *badV / *bade? bat "un / uno" bi / bin un numeral biga bi (antiguo biga) "dos" irur un numeral hirur hiru(r) "tres" laur un numeral laur lau(r) cuatro" borste / bors un numeral bortz / *bortzV? bost (antiguo bortz) "cinco" śei un numeral
sei "seis" sisbi un numeral?
zazpi "siete" sorse un numeral?
zortzi "ocho" abaŕ / baŕ un numeral *[h]anbar ? hamar "diez" oŕkei un numeral
hogei "veinte"

And seriously, I can accept a language can borrow one or two numbers, but not the whole serie.

Let me say this: the case of the similarity between Basque and Iberian numerals makes a very strong argument in favour. Having said this, there is the precedent of the Turkic languages which were highly adaptive in terms of numerals. But, it's indeed very unlikely to replace a complete number system. In contrast to that, the Indo-European languages are extremely conservative in respect for numerals.

Regarding Urnfield, I have to disagree. You must not expect that archaeological cultures reflecting linguistic homogenity. Even if, you have to consider the vast extend of Urnfield (Poland, Italy) a vast area where there is no evidence for Basque / Iberian toponyms, and which I find far more plausible to assume that it was Indo-European already in the Brone Age. Basque toponyms, as mentioned, extend towards the north only approximately to the Garrone. In contrast, Iberian toponyms are found towards all the way down the Iberian penninsula into Andalusia, as far west as the Guadalquivir river.

Yes it do but Morrocans do not speack Berber but Arabic , so before Arabs they could speack different languague , which kind of languague do you think Basque was , and who brought it ?If its not IE and not North Afric , maybe I2a1-Paleolithic?

Sorry, Moroccans very much speak also Berber languages today. There is several million people in Morocco who speak the Central Atlas Berber:

There are also other Berber languages spoken in Algeria, Tunisia and Western Libya. It is known that the Berbers inhabited these areas already in Antiquity, and Berber kingdoms in what today is Morocco were clients of the Carthagininians first, and then of the Roman Empire.

 

[Bodin]

As Taranis wrote, I wanted to say that aquitanian and iberian languages -clearly non IE- could arrive with the Urnenfelder Kultur, although many scholars associate this culture exclusively to IE peoples. The question is, if basques/iberians came from Europe, where is the linguistic evidence outside France/Spain? Hard work for linguists, but -who knows- maybe these rivers -Ebro, Ibar, Ybbs, Ebrach...- are related to basque Ibai (river)..

About basque and iberian -I remember I posted it in other thread-, some numbers:

Ibérico Significado ibérico Protovasco Vasco actual y significado erder / erdi- "mitad / medio"
erdi "mitad / medio" ban " un / uno" *badV / *bade? bat "un / uno" bi / bin un numeral biga bi (antiguo biga) "dos" irur un numeral hirur hiru(r) "tres" laur un numeral laur lau(r) cuatro" borste / bors un numeral bortz / *bortzV? bost (antiguo bortz) "cinco" śei un numeral
sei "seis" sisbi un numeral?
zazpi "siete" sorse un numeral?
zortzi "ocho" abaŕ / baŕ un numeral *[h]anbar ? hamar "diez" oŕkei un numeral
hogei "veinte"

And seriously, I can accept a language can borrow one or two numbers, but not the whole serie.

So you think that Urnfield people use to speack few diferent languagues ( not even same familly of languagues) , interesting oppinion . Maybe some languague diference betwen rulling nation and conquered one ?
I believe that it is posible to borow all numbers , linguistics when they clasiffy languagues in famillies look only basic words ( 50-100) - familly members , basic food , house parts ,... I believe I already wrote about Hungarian languague , 95% of it words are IE , but basic words are Uralic , and it is classified like Uralic .So Iberico and Protovasco can be non IE , but yet use IE numbers .Thanks for answering

 

[Bodin]

Let me say this: the case of the similarity between Basque and Iberian numerals makes a very strong argument in favour. Having said this, there is the precedent of the Turkic languages which were highly adaptive in terms of numerals. But, it's indeed very unlikely to replace a complete number system. In contrast to that, the Indo-European languages are extremely conservative in respect for numerals.

Regarding Urnfield, I have to disagree. You must not expect that archaeological cultures reflecting linguistic homogenity. Even if, you have to consider the vast extend of Urnfield (Poland, Italy) a vast area where there is no evidence for Basque / Iberian toponyms, and which I find far more plausible to assume that it was Indo-European already in the Brone Age. Basque toponyms, as mentioned, extend towards the north only approximately to the Garrone. In contrast, Iberian toponyms are found towards all the way down the Iberian penninsula into Andalusia, as far west as the Guadalquivir river.



Sorry, Moroccans very much speak also Berber languages today. There is several million people in Morocco who speak the Central Atlas Berber:

There are also other Berber languages spoken in Algeria, Tunisia and Western Libya. It is known that the Berbers inhabited these areas already in Antiquity, and Berber kingdoms in what today is Morocco were clients of the Carthagininians first, and then of the Roman Empire.

No Berbers are separate nation of desert nomads that lives in Morocco , Algeria and Tunis , and in other parts of Sahara , Morrocans do not speack Berber but Arabic . Thanks for answering

 

[Segia2]

Bodin, I think that an archaeological culture can be associated with different ethno-linguistic groups (diffusion, asimilation..) UFK is possibly IE, but not necessary and exclusively IE (I agree with you, Taranis, perhaps I explained myself wrongly)

BTW, sorry for my messy previous post, but basque and iberian numerals aren't IE. I wrote them to explain the similarity between both languages (there are more similar characteristics, as phonetic inventary, agglutinating system, shared derivational sufixes -en, -sken, ancient anthroponyms...) The problem lies on propperly comparing two languages, one living and the other dead more than fifteen centuries ago (corpus language), fragmentary and with a lack of "Rossetta stones" that could give light to the whole business.

 

[Taranis]

Bodin, I think that an archaeological culture can be associated with different ethno-linguistic groups (diffusion, asimilation..) UFK is possibly IE, but not necessary and exclusively IE (I agree with you, Taranis, perhaps I explained myself wrongly)

Alright, I now understand.

BTW, sorry for my messy previous post, but basque and iberian numerals aren't IE. I wrote them to explain the similarity between both languages (there are more similar characteristics, as phonetic inventary, agglutinating system, shared derivational sufixes -en, -sken, ancient anthroponyms...) The problem lies on propperly comparing two languages, one living and the other dead more than fifteen centuries ago (corpus language), fragmentary and with a lack of "Rossetta stones" that could give light to the whole business.

I absolutely agree on the features of the Iberian language. Regarding comparison, what is more useful is what scarce evidence we do have (place names, personal names) of Aquitanian, and in turn compare it with reconstructed Proto-Basque (internal reconstruction based on how non-Basque loanwords are treated). Of course the term "Proto-Basque" is a bit of a misnomer because it technically refers to the Basque language around the time the Basques were subjugated by the Roman Empire, but on the upside Proto-Basque is very similar to what little we known about Aquitanian, therefore, in my opinion Aquitanian is probably the same as Proto-Basque.

 

[Bodin]

Bodin, I think that an archaeological culture can be associated with different ethno-linguistic groups (diffusion, asimilation..) UFK is possibly IE, but not necessary and exclusively IE (I agree with you, Taranis, perhaps I explained myself wrongly)

BTW, sorry for my messy previous post, but basque and iberian numerals aren't IE. I wrote them to explain the similarity between both languages (there are more similar characteristics, as phonetic inventary, agglutinating system, shared derivational sufixes -en, -sken, ancient anthroponyms...) The problem lies on propperly comparing two languages, one living and the other dead more than fifteen centuries ago (corpus language), fragmentary and with a lack of "Rossetta stones" that could give light to the whole business.

Yes it can but if they both were R1b ( Basque and Celts ) why did they speack diferent languagues? And central Europe has some G( 2-3%) , why there is no in Basque?
Thanks for answering

 

[Taranis]

No Berbers are separate nation of desert nomads that lives in Morocco , Algeria and Tunis , and in other parts of Sahara , Morrocans do not speack Berber but Arabic . Thanks for answering

I'm sorry, Berber languages are very well spoken in Morocco today. There's no point in denying that.

Besides, it's equally clear that the Berber languages were widely spoken in much of North Africa in Antiquity.

Yes it can but if they both were R1b ( Basque and Celts ) why did they speack diferent languagues? And central Europe has some G( 2-3%) , why there is no in Basque?
Thanks for answering

Very simple: people can swap their languages, but they canot swap their Haplogroups.

 

[Knovas]

Bodin, when I said they are the most European I meant today. According to admixture analysis, as population, they are the less mixed of the entire Europe.

It's a good point the last one. Celts and Basques were both R1b, but I think we must find the answer, perhaps, in the type of R1b. Probably between the Basques there is an especific subclade at higher frequencies than in any other place. At least, they have the highest R1b, there would be nothing rare on this.

By the way, Here is the R1b of a distant cousin of mine at 23andme (he seems to be the most Basque person I found there till the moment): R1b1b2a1a2b

Can this subclade and a few others have higher presence between the Basques?

 

[Taranis]

Bodin, when I said they are the most European I meant today. According to admixture analysis, as population, they are the less mixed of the entire Europe.

It's a good point the last one. Celts and Basques were both R1b, but I think we must find the answer, perhaps, in the type of R1b. Probably between the Basques there is an especific subclade at higher frequencies than in any other place. At least, they have the highest R1b, there would be nothing rare on this.

By the way, Here is the R1b of a distant cousin of mine at 23andme (he seems to be the most Basque person I found there till the moment): R1b1b2a1a2b

Can this subclade and a few others have higher presence between the Basques?

Well, one issue that is very clear is that there's quite a difference between various subclades of R1b. Both Basque and Celtic* subclades of R1b are part of R1b-L11/P310, but things end there. The question is, why did R1b-L11/P310 began to split up? From what I have seen, typically Celtic subclades of R1b appear to be near absent amongst the Basques.

*by "Celtic" subclades I mean L21 (found mainly on the British Isles and in the Atlantic facade) and U152 (centered around the Alpine region), however it's clear that U152 isn't exlcusively Celtic because there's also an Italic component to it.

 

[Knovas]

Ok Taranis, your answer is enough. We can asume easily that the ancient R1b of the Celts and the Basques were associated to different peoples. That would explain the first question.

 

[Wilhelm]

I don't agree at all. The (proto)-Celtic branch is tought to be the R-S116, which is where Basques and all spaniards belong too. In today's basque country there is Celtic or at least Indo-european toponymia. In historic times there were celts living there. As for the G2a, is curious that basques autosomally lack the West-Asian component (which peaks in Georgians) and as well the G2a peaks in Georgians.

 

[Taranis]

I don't agree at all. The (proto)-Celtic branch is tought to be the R-S116, which is where Basques and all spaniards belong too. In today's basque country there is Celtic or at least Indo-european toponymia. In historic times there were celts living there. As for the G2a, is curious that basques autosomally lack the West-Asian component (which peaks in Georgians) and as well the G2a peaks in Georgians.

Yes and no. It still appears to me that the typically "Celtic" (at least, those that are usually considered that, as mentioned, L21 and U152) subclades of S116 are very rare in the Basque Country and in Iberia as a whole. It would be very nice/interesting to see a better resultion of the R1b subclades on the Iberian penninsula.

In any case it's clear that S116 isn't exclusively (Proto-)Celtic. This gets very clear if you take a look at the high concentrations of R1b-U152 in Italy, which cannot be exclusively explained by the historic Celtic immigration into northern Italy.

Otherwise, I agree that the lack of the West Asian component in Basque Autosomal DNA is very interesting.

 

[Knovas]

According to K=12 v3, Southwest Asian is even more absent between them.

Some Iberians get high North Atlantic scores at Eurogenes when the cluster is included, and something similar would happen with Basques. Note that ancient subclades tell us nothing about the full admixture. Surely, Basques were mixed in the past with other peoples, althought they maintained their original culture pretty well.