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Thread: Lack of G2a in Basque

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Yes I know they have boats , but France and Germany Neolithic findings dont show any E1b1b or J - only posible place that I could remember they could come from is Caucasus .
    G2a is not only haplogroup that spreaded agriculture , there is also E1b1b and J , so earlier agriculture on Balkans and South Spain could be from them . G2a could be pushed over sea ( Mediteranian islands and North Africa ) by incoming invaders , or it could get there from Asia?
    And maybe moving of agriculture from Asia Minor via Balkans toward North represent moving of R1b in to Central Europe , from Asia Minor , where it originated ( maybe becouse of Black sea floding ) . On Balkans they could be represented by VinĨa culture , that invented bronze , and have population boom with bigest settlements in Europe of that time . Later they could be pushed by incoming E1b1b and J from Asia Minor ( took place of R1b after sea withdraw ) in Central Europe , there they are acepting IE languague from first waves of R1a , and then pushed to West Europe by later waves from stepes. is this posible scenario ?

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    I have collected more Y-DNA data on the Basques, and it turns out that they do not completely lack G2a. I found 1.5% of G2a in 597 samples.

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    In that case theory is wrong , because data was wrong .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    In that case theory is wrong , because data was wrong .
    You should never jump to conclusions based on Y-DNA data for one region, especially if the sample size is small. You should look at the bigger picture and foresee possible sampling biases.

    Incidentally, the data wasn't wrong before. Every sample tested was correct, and there were already over 200 Basque samples. But you can never expect 200 samples to be as accurate as 500 or 1000 samples. I think that any sample size under 500 is bound to mislead us. That's why I have added confidence rating (stars) next to the Y-DNA tables. You should be very careful with any data that doesn't have at least 3 stars.

    I wouldn't bother discussing data with less than 150 samples at all, even for regional comparisons. For example, I found two studies with about 100 samples for the Ile-de-France region (Paris), but the results were completely different. I merged them in the Y-DNA tables, but it still looks somewhat odd (too high R1a and J2, too low R1b).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    . I wouldn't bother discussing data with less than 150 samples at all, even for regional comparisons. For example, I found two studies with about 100 samples for the Ile-de-France region (Paris), but the results were completely different. I merged them in the Y-DNA tables, but it still looks somewhat odd (too high R1a and J2, too low R1b).

    What were the two frequencies of R1b in the studies of Ile-de-France?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You should never jump to conclusions based on Y-DNA data for one region, especially if the sample size is small. You should look at the bigger picture and foresee possible sampling biases.

    Incidentally, the data wasn't wrong before. Every sample tested was correct, and there were already over 200 Basque samples. But you can never expect 200 samples to be as accurate as 500 or 1000 samples. I think that any sample size under 500 is bound to mislead us. That's why I have added confidence rating (stars) next to the Y-DNA tables. You should be very careful with any data that doesn't have at least 3 stars.

    I wouldn't bother discussing data with less than 150 samples at all, even for regional comparisons. For example, I found two studies with about 100 samples for the Ile-de-France region (Paris), but the results were completely different. I merged them in the Y-DNA tables, but it still looks somewhat odd (too high R1a and J2, too low R1b).
    Yes, I already stumbled across this an issue in regard for the (apparent) lack of R1b-U152 in Austria. 18 samples?!
    But yes, I jumped on false conclusions there too in the past (R1a in France, in particular).

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You should never jump to conclusions based on Y-DNA data for one region, especially if the sample size is small. You should look at the bigger picture and foresee possible sampling biases.

    Incidentally, the data wasn't wrong before. Every sample tested was correct, and there were already over 200 Basque samples. But you can never expect 200 samples to be as accurate as 500 or 1000 samples. I think that any sample size under 500 is bound to mislead us. That's why I have added confidence rating (stars) next to the Y-DNA tables. You should be very careful with any data that doesn't have at least 3 stars.

    I wouldn't bother discussing data with less than 150 samples at all, even for regional comparisons. For example, I found two studies with about 100 samples for the Ile-de-France region (Paris), but the results were completely different. I merged them in the Y-DNA tables, but it still looks somewhat odd (too high R1a and J2, too low R1b).
    Well I believed 200 samples were enough ,because parts shows picture of whole . Could it be G in Basque is concentrated in some pleces - did first genetic testing (( that show no G ) was done evenly over all Basque ? 200 is realy god size number . Aldo dealing with small percentage groups in certain aeria , they can fluctuate as number of samples grow - but again jump of 1,5% is realy big . How big was sample for second testing ( one that shown 1,5% G)?

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    About that sampling in Ill-de -France , were samples from same aeria ? Because some villages and geografical isolated aerias could show totaly diferent DNA than major population - egzample - Croatian islands of Krk, Pag and Hvar( probably strong Avar influence ) . So there is need for researchers to take samples evenly from ass much diferent aerias as he can .In Serbia there is also village Tatomir , and by legend it is settled by Mongols ( Tatars ) in raid from 1241 . His population shows Asiatic charachteristics - they are shorter , have dark eyes and hairs , mongol eyes,... And when somebody try to date girl from this village boys gathers and beat him up. Also they tend not to marry outside of village . I would expect them to have very diferent DNA than rest of Serbia

  9. #159
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    One thing. People speak "mother languages" not paternal langaguages. So Basque language is not the product of Y.Chr but of mtDNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brictus View Post
    One thing. People speak "mother languages" not paternal langaguages. So Basque language is not the product of Y.Chr but of mtDNA
    Welcome to the forum. :)

    And yes, I agree (and others on this forum mentioned it before), that this is an idea that has been suggested in respect for explaining the discrepancies/differences between Basque Y-DNA, mitochondrial/autosomal DNA and the language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brictus View Post
    One thing. People speak "mother languages" not paternal langaguages. So Basque language is not the product of Y.Chr but of mtDNA
    Obviously it's a product of neither, and if language was universally matrilineally inherited, we would expect all of Iberia to speak Basque, wouldn't we?

    Either way, we still don't have anything to compare Basque to, so we can't be sure when the language (or the ancestral language(s) from which it is derived) arrived in Western Europe. But if we're certain it's Paleolithic, we can rest easy knowing that there is significant Paleolithic Y-DNA among Basques, and that it is of the most common variety in the Neolithic (I2a1a), as we've mentioned. The only problem remaining if all of that proves to be true is explaining how R1b expanded within Basques... and that explanation doesn't even have to be entirely based on culture or language inheritance patterns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Obviously it's a product of neither, and if language was universally matrilineally inherited, we would expect all of Iberia to speak Basque, wouldn't we?

    Either way, we still don't have anything to compare Basque to, so we can't be sure when the language (or the ancestral language(s) from which it is derived) arrived in Western Europe. But if we're certain it's Paleolithic, we can rest easy knowing that there is significant Paleolithic Y-DNA among Basques, and that it is of the most common variety in the Neolithic (I2a1a), as we've mentioned. The only problem remaining if all of that proves to be true is explaining how R1b expanded within Basques... and that explanation doesn't even have to be entirely based on culture or language inheritance patterns.
    Well, what I think what Brictus was refering to is, which also has a few historically attested examples (Taino and Caribs in the Carribean), is that children will be more likely to learn their mothers language, even if we talk about a patrilineal society of conquerors. This is a scenario that could easily explain how the Basques as a society could end up being majorly R1b while retaining a Neolithic or even Paleolithic language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Well, what I think what Brictus was refering to is, which also has a few historically attested examples (Taino and Caribs in the Carribean), is that children will be more likely to learn their mothers language, even if we talk about a patrilineal society of conquerors. This is a scenario that could easily explain how the Basques as a society could end up being majorly R1b while retaining a Neolithic or even Paleolithic language.
    I have read that Basque culture is relatively matrilineal, at least compared to most IE cultures, so it's not impossible that it could play a part, but I doubt it's the primary part of the solution to the Basque question. Besides, "children will be more likely to learn their mothers language, even if we talk about a patrilineal society of conquerors" seems to have just as many counterexamples as examples... most of Latin America has relatively high Spanish patrilines versus Amerind matrilines, and yet Spanish is dominant. The Basques also seem to be an exception to the better correlation of Y-DNA to language families than mtDNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I have read that Basque culture is relatively matrilineal, at least compared to most IE cultures, so it's not impossible that it could play a part, but I doubt it's the primary part of the solution to the Basque question. Besides, "children will be more likely to learn their mothers language, even if we talk about a patrilineal society of conquerors" seems to have just as many counterexamples as examples... most of Latin America has relatively high Spanish patrilines versus Amerind matrilines, and yet Spanish is dominant. The Basques also seem to be an exception to the better correlation of Y-DNA to language families than mtDNA.
    Well, I admit that you do have a good point about that, Sparkey. It really is more of an exception than the rule. What I recently brought up in the 'Ancient place names in Iberia' is the fact that the Basque language is very hard to estimate in it's age: Proto-Indo-European for a comparison is clearly a language of the Copper Age with common words for agriculture, horse, warfare, metals and metalworking. The Finnic languages are at least Neolithic in age, but it cannot be ruled out that it's actually Mesolithic (since the core vocabulary is that of a hunter-gatherer society). With Basque, you actually do have seemingly indigenous terms for agriculture, horse and metalworking... so, we're talking about a mystery here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    ...we're talking about a mystery here.
    Probably the truest words that can be spoken about Basque origins. It's funny that genetics, and especially Y-DNA, has actually muddied the waters further with respect to the Basques.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brictus View Post
    One thing. People speak "mother languages" not paternal langaguages. So Basque language is not the product of Y.Chr but of mtDNA
    this is correct, languages are maternal and not paternal.

    So, basically linguistics to a degree call regional/provincial languages maternal , while national languages are paternal.

    basque would have retain its language from its maternal side

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    [QUOTE=sparkey;382533]
    Obviously it's a product of neither, and if language was universally matrilineally inherited, we would expect all of Iberia to speak Basque, wouldn't we?
    ? , maternal language is not nationalistic, its a language used in the home, the village, the town. It grows in this slow way.

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    There are some. There was a study done and 4 in about 130 samples came out as G in the Basque area, not alot though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    this is correct, languages are maternal and not paternal.

    So, basically linguistics to a degree call regional/provincial languages maternal , while national languages are paternal.

    basque would have retain its language from its maternal side
    there is no general everlasting rule I think:
    maternal language more local in ancient time; it's turning the contrary now: with possibility to women to live their lives, to work and move, regional or local languages (in a lot ot Europe countries) have more male supporters...

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    Cardial expanded from Mediterranean sea in occident: S-France (through Corsica) to North by more than a way: on the western side they moved approximatively along Garonne river to the ocean, loosing demic weight by time (they was mixed in S-France yet) - it seams to me that present day basque territory was neolithized more by atlantic megalithers people than by genuine first E-mediterranean agriculture-breeding bearers... surely these ones played a role at first, acculturing local people of E-Iberia, S-Iberia and SW-Iberia (S-Portugal) - but their Y-G element, the predominent one in Cardial (with some few Y-E1b-V13 & J2b?), lost its weight very quickly - even if finally responsible for so called "basque" Neolithic, thing I 'm not sure of, it's not surprising Y-G is so light among Basques of today -

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