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Thread: Slovenians , west-slavic, south-slavic or celtic

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Slovenians , west-slavic, south-slavic or celtic



    Looking at the history of the slovenian territory, I came across slavic people arguing about what kind of slavs they where , either west or south slavs.

    When looking at the historical area in the bronze-age, it was called Noricum, I noticed it was made up of the Raeti ( G2a ) in the alps to the adriatic sea ( found this out last week), the taurisci which where gallic-celts ( ligurian tribe taurini ) and the carni which where gallic-celts.
    In some books it says the norici tribe was also there and some say they taurisci where also the same people as the Norici.

    If modern Slovenian have
    51% R1a
    23% I2a
    15% I1a
    5% R1b

    Would it be safe to assume that they where made up of mostly west-slavic "polish" branch as the R1a + I1a is present in the modern polish lands..

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    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    If modern Slovenian have
    51% R1a
    23% I2a
    15% I1a
    5% R1b

    Would it be safe to assume that they where made up of mostly west-slavic "polish" branch as the R1a + I1a is present in the modern polish lands..
    Your numbers are not quite correct, check this data from Battaglia paper: http://mathildasanthropologyblog.fil...09/02/ydna.png

    The most of R1a could indeed be similar to R1a found among West Slavs. After all it is known that Eastern Alps were settled by Slavs from Northeast.

    I2a (that is probably I2a1b1a) should be of mostly the same origin to I2a found among South Slavs.

    R1b is probably most numerous pre-Slavic haplogroup and I would also relate it it to Celts.

    I1 has frequency of around 10% and good part of it could have been brought by Langobards.

    There are also E-V13 and J2 in smaller frequencies (probably mostly of pre migration period origin).

    So I think it is not wrong if we say Slovenians are all that: West-Slavic, South-Slavic and Celtic, but also there were other people who had chosen today's Slovenia to settle there.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b1 Slavic South

    Ethnic group
    Slavic Serb
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post

    I2a (that is probably I2a1b1a) should be of mostly the same origin to I2a found among South Slavs.
    Well, what is interesting is that Slovenian I2a2 Dinaric haplotypes belongs to subgroup I2a2 Dinaric North in difference with I2a2 Dinaric South which is typical for Serbs, Croats and Bosnian muslims. Eastern Alps were settled in two waves, first wave came from north and was that of Western Slavs, and second one was from the east from Panonian plain when together with Avars came huge group of Slavs. Slovenians are according to genetics really typical Slavic nation.

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    I have quite diferent % for Slovenia :
    I1 9,5%
    I2b 2%
    I2a 22%
    R1a 34,5%
    R1b 22,4%
    G2a 2,6%
    J2 3%
    J1 1%
    E1b1b 3%
    Avars setled Slavs in Karanthania ( today Slovenia and Koruska and Gradisce in today Austria) like their borderguards ( limitanei ) betwen 575 and 580 , there was Bavarians and Langobards there .First conflict with Bavarians after that was in 593 when Bavarian duke Tassilo I crossed Brener , and from lower Ens advanced toward upper Drava , he defeated Slavs and took great prey. But in campaing of next year he was ambushed by Avar cavalary and lose 2000 people .603 -611 Avars atack Byzantine Istra( today in Croatia) in aliance with Langobards , Langobards betray them and make peace with empire , but Avars anyway take Istra and kill all soldiers there heavily depopulating it , since 611 they settling Slavs from Karanthania there . 670-680 is coming of second wave of Avars , it is not atested in sources , but I wave sceletons have caucasian sceletons ( probably J2 from KKhorazm ) , but in II wave there is some sceletons that showing mongolic features- newcomers from east . Around 700 they beat Bavarians , and " in they land was only wild animals and no humans" . Border is on river Ens. 791 Charlemagne conquered lands to river Raba , and very son whole of Avaria .
    So I1 and I2b can be from Langobards , Bavarians , Franks , Austrians ( During AustroHungary , there was significant German minority from Germany in Slovenia before II world war, mainly settled by AustroHungary during they rule , but comunist expeled them 1945 )
    I2a there was significant Croatian settlement during Turk invasions on Balkans- Croats retreated infront of Turks , some of it could be I2a1 - from Veneti .
    R1a is from Slavs
    R1b from Celts that lived there Taurisci , Norici ,Carni,... and Romans
    G2a ancient -Neolithic
    E1b1b, J2 and J1 from Roman empire soldiers

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    I would like to point out that Slovenian R1a is probably not exclusively Slavic, even if a sizable fraction of it (if not the majority) of it is. R1a has been in Europe since the Copper Age, and is found outside of the area of Slavic settlements in considerable frequencies (for instance Scandinavia and Greece). Considering the high concentration of I1 in Slovenia, it's certainly likely that some of the Slovenian R1a might also be Germanic or even earlier in origin (consider that R1a might have been in that area since the Bronze Age!).

    With regard for R1b, there is both U152 and U106 in Slovenia - in other words both Celtic/Roman and Germanic R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I would like to point out that Slovenian R1a is probably not exclusively Slavic, even if a sizable fraction of it (if not the majority) of it is. R1a has been in Europe since the Copper Age, and is found outside of the area of Slavic settlements in considerable frequencies (for instance Scandinavia and Greece). Considering the high concentration of I1 in Slovenia, it's certainly likely that some of the Slovenian R1a might also be Germanic or even earlier in origin (consider that R1a might have been in that area since the Bronze Age!).

    With regard for R1b, there is both U152 and U106 in Slovenia - in other words both Celtic/Roman and Germanic R1b.
    Good point I forgot to mention that , and also some of Germanic genes were brought by Goths

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Sloveni (Slovenci)

    In december 2011 in my DNA base situation is like this: From all Slovenia, urban and countryside there is 411 Y-DNA samples. Inclouding also Slovenian minority in Italy (10 samples).

    R1a1 - 37,71%
    I2a2 - 19,46
    R1b - 16,30
    I1 - 10,46
    E - 4,87
    G - 3,89
    J - 3,16
    I2b - 2,19
    T - 1,22
    L - 0,49
    H - 0,24

    It looks like in the west (Goriška) R1a and R1b have near the same % and there is more I1 than slovenian average is. But interesting - Slovenian minority in Italy has more R1a1 (4/10). Maybe they did not mix a lot with Italians, Furlans, Germans in that areas. There is more I2a2 in south east (Spodnje Posavje) and more R1a1 in Gorenjska area, in center and in north east (Pomurje) in north (Koroška) and interesting on the coast (Obalno Kraška). In north east (Podravje) there is also more I2a2. Of course, MORE SAMPLES are needed to prove (or not) this picture. If you want more, search in google: Slovenija v DNK bazenu sveta Manfreda Vrecko and Y-DNA routes of the ancestors of Slovenes Manfreda


    Lp, Marjeta

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    Hallo. Can you tell me the link to this information you wrotte: Raeti (G2a)? I am very interesting! Please and thank you, Marjeta

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marjeta View Post
    In december 2011 in my DNA base situation is like this: From all Slovenia, urban and countryside there is 411 Y-DNA samples. Inclouding also Slovenian minority in Italy (10 samples).

    R1a1 - 37,71%
    I2a2 - 19,46
    R1b - 16,30
    I1 - 10,46
    E - 4,87
    G - 3,89
    J - 3,16
    I2b - 2,19
    T - 1,22
    L - 0,49
    H - 0,24

    It looks like in the west (Goriška) R1a and R1b have near the same % and there is more I1 than slovenian average is. But interesting - Slovenian minority in Italy has more R1a1 (4/10). Maybe they did not mix a lot with Italians, Furlans, Germans in that areas. There is more I2a2 in south east (Spodnje Posavje) and more R1a1 in Gorenjska area, in center and in north east (Pomurje) in north (Koroška) and interesting on the coast (Obalno Kraška). In north east (Podravje) there is also more I2a2. Of course, MORE SAMPLES are needed to prove (or not) this picture. If you want more, search in google: Slovenija v DNK bazenu sveta Manfreda Vrecko and Y-DNA routes of the ancestors of Slovenes Manfreda


    Lp, Marjeta
    You should not assume that all R1a is slavic , it is also Germanic.
    A history of slovenia says
    Main article: History of Styria

    During early Roman times, Styria was inhabited by Celtic tribes. After its conquest by the Romans, the eastern part of what is now Styria was part of Pannonia, while the western one was included in Noricum. During the Barbarian invasions, it was conquered or crossed by the Visigoths, the Huns, the Ostrogoths, the Rugii, the Lombards, the Franks and the Avars. In 595 the latter were defeated by the Slavs, who thenceforth ruled it.

    so, visi and ostro goths have majority R1a , also because they mixed with the germanic bastanae on the black sea. They then would have picked up different haplotypes due to there tendency of recruiting foreign troops.
    The Rugii are originally norwegian and I1
    Lombards are east germans , again , unsure but I1
    Franks, Avars , I am unsure

    The furlans are equally mixed with Veneti, Rhaeti and Gallic-Ligurian/celts. There language to this day is Romansch/gallic

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    Ethnic group
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    Here's the genetic map, more clear and precise than haplogrous that are useless
    SI=SLOVENIANS

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    based on my personal morphes of famous football players, from my blogspot http://footballplayersmorphes.blogspot.com/

    Slovenians, morph of 16 famous footballplayers:

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    my opinions on ancient population back ground of slovenians, manly Carni (gaulish tribe) plus Slavs
    with venetic, illyrians and germanic tribes contributions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I have quite diferent % for Slovenia :
    I1 9,5%
    I2b 2%
    I2a 22%
    R1a 34,5%
    R1b 22,4%
    G2a 2,6%
    J2 3%
    J1 1%
    E1b1b 3%
    Avars setled Slavs in Karanthania ( today Slovenia and Koruska and Gradisce in today Austria) like their borderguards ( limitanei ) betwen 575 and 580 , there was Bavarians and Langobards there .First conflict with Bavarians after that was in 593 when Bavarian duke Tassilo I crossed Brener , and from lower Ens advanced toward upper Drava , he defeated Slavs and took great prey. But in campaing of next year he was ambushed by Avar cavalary and lose 2000 people .603 -611 Avars atack Byzantine Istra( today in Croatia) in aliance with Langobards , Langobards betray them and make peace with empire , but Avars anyway take Istra and kill all soldiers there heavily depopulating it , since 611 they settling Slavs from Karanthania there . 670-680 is coming of second wave of Avars , it is not atested in sources , but I wave sceletons have caucasian sceletons ( probably J2 from KKhorazm ) , but in II wave there is some sceletons that showing mongolic features- newcomers from east . Around 700 they beat Bavarians , and " in they land was only wild animals and no humans" . Border is on river Ens. 791 Charlemagne conquered lands to river Raba , and very son whole of Avaria .
    So I1 and I2b can be from Langobards , Bavarians , Franks , Austrians ( During AustroHungary , there was significant German minority from Germany in Slovenia before II world war, mainly settled by AustroHungary during they rule , but comunist expeled them 1945 )
    I2a there was significant Croatian settlement during Turk invasions on Balkans- Croats retreated infront of Turks , some of it could be I2a1 - from Veneti .
    R1a is from Slavs
    R1b from Celts that lived there Taurisci , Norici ,Carni,... and Romans
    G2a ancient -Neolithic
    E1b1b, J2 and J1 from Roman empire soldiers
    The haplotype numbers above are also maciano's numbers. Recent accusations by some DNA people have suggested that the R1a numbers are doubles of the same people who used different names. Basically hoping to increase the R1a % of the slovenians more ( common sense people realise Hg do not belong to one race or another ).

    In regards to these original ancient slovene people ( pre-slavic) , I think they are people of Illyric, noric and gaulish extraction who gained some venetic, celtic and later germanic traits pre Roman times. The confusing part is that Livy and others wrote that the Venetic people came from the troad in anatolia, crossed into europe, march along the coast to the danube, sailed inland , then used the sava river into pannonia and noricum. This was circa 1270BC before the trojan wars. These venetic people intermingled with illyrians. The venetic then continued over time into the Venetian area and established a city initially called Trojanus pagus ( padua) . the venetic that stayed in pannonia and noricum where the catari tribe to name one.
    If this is fact , then the slovenes ( unless they are 100% slavic) must have been initally 100% illyrian. the year 1270BC is prior to the bronze age migrations
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...0pagus&f=false


    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...0savus&f=false

    The gaulish aspect of slovene are the taurisci and carni people. The taurisci in the northern parts of slovenia and the carni in the western part. Are these gaulish people the first celts who moved there around 500BC or are these germanic celts with the R1b.

    Any links would be helpful

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