Slovenians , west-slavic, south-slavic or celtic

Often Scythians worked as auxiliary troops in Roman armies, so I think they had rather good relationship. Besides after 5th century BC Scythians and Sarmatians vanished from history. Some of them were Slavicized.

they vanished into the thin air...

"Yes they did. They showed up suddenly in written records and we see huge archeological cultural change."

Show me your sources and a proof of that (archeological), not written. I could write many things. But these things do not need to be correct.
Besides why would Iranians "slavicize" when Slavs were still not "cultural"...The Holy Roman Church was needed and the Aryan Germans, Italians and Greeks were sent to them and taught them to write and to live and speak human languages...
 
"Baltic language is closer to Iranic than Slavic". I am glad for that you are great scholar of the Iranian and Baltic (?) languages (you probably meant Estonian and Lithuanian; as "Baltic" right? )

Yes, and Slovenian is closer grammatically to Rig Vedic Sanskrit.
 
Use "Reply With Quote" button.
they vanished into the thin air...
I didn't say that, did I? Try to find a written records of their contemporaries about their existence after 5th century. At least they don't exist as a coherent group and culture anymore.

Show me your sources and a proof of that (archeological), not written. I could write many things. But these things do not need to be correct.
By 5th century in central Europe:
- Depopulation of the area, due to hunic invasions and Justinian plague, and colder climate.
- Change of material culture, simpler houses and ordinary daily items.
- Written Byzantine and Roman records about slavs moving south.
- Lack of records about existence/settlements of Slavs in Balkans pre 5th century.
These are the popular and official facts. If you think otherwise please support your unusual claims. I'm not changing the history, but you are, therefore the proof is on you.

Besides why would Iranians "slavicize" when Slavs were still not "cultural"...
What is the culture according to you? They had their language, their fashion, art, tribal rulers/politics, farming tradition, stories, religion, etc. The last time I checked, all of these denote culture. At the end of a day we have 1/4 of Europe speaking Slavic language, and only Ossetians speaking Iranian.
 
"Baltic language is closer to Iranic than Slavic". I am glad for that you are great scholar of the Iranian and Baltic (?) languages (you probably meant Estonian and Lithuanian; as "Baltic" right?
You remember the group of Balto-Slavic languages? Latvian and Lithuanian remaining of them. Estonian is finnic I suppose.

Yes, and Slovenian is closer grammatically to Rig Vedic Sanskrit.
Closer than what, all of other IE languages?
 
Closer than what, all of other IE languages?

One of the closest, Yes. Especially the grammatics and several verbs are the same. Names of animals are almost identical. There are differences in the "herbal" world. Which means that some other group added their names of words of plants and several priests combined this knowledge into the Vedas (Veda in Slovene; "knowledge")... This is how the Sanskrit and Vedas were written. Artificially, from different languages. Veda (knowledge) was written to secure and maintain the ancient knowledge of the Universe, from the human past in simple stories for the people.
This is also the word from which "Witch" derives from; Vešča ("witch") in my language, V(i)esch; "to be skilled"; also a "moth" (insect, flying around, hearing things...); transmutation went from Veda, Vešča; Vetcha, Witch(er)... Second term was Volhv(also a "mage" and a King in old Slavic; Christian writers, parasites decided to keep the word; hence the "3 Volhvs("holy 3 kings who brought gifts to baby Jesus") come from in later Russian and Ukrainian Bible... Another version of this ancient priest was Vedun or Vedanec (a type of Druid; Truit; 3-Ved (the one who knows the Trinity (not Christian one))..

Lithuanian is also one of the closest. But not grammatically. (Slovene includes the same Dual conjugations of verbs as old Rig Vedic sanskrit; for women, men and for things), not only in Singular and Plural. For example

"to be"
Slovenian:

Singular:

sem, si, je - (i am you are, he/she/it is)

DUAL:

sva, sta, sta - (we two are, the two of you, the two of them)

Plural:

smo, ste, so - (we are, you are, they are)

and now Sanskrit:

Singular:
asmi, asi, asti

Dual:
svah, sthah, stah

Plural:
smah, stha, santi.

verb; "to fall" (in singular, dual and plural) Sanskrikt (Singular)
patami patasi patati
Dual
patava patath patatah
Plural
patamah patatha patanti

Slovene
padam padaš pada

Dual
padava padata padata
Plural
padamo padate padajo

Eng I fall you fall he falls (no dual) we fall you fall they fall

I have only recently discovered huge Vedic background of Slovenian mythology. For example Shiva was god Svetovid.
If you will understand the Vedic story of Shiva's Mangala (this is "Manu"(Man; "human")-Gala (throat, voice, seaGul; Galus, Galeb, Glagolica; Ghaul, Kelt("Celt")) then you will understand the Slovene "pagan" story of Svetovid and why Slavic Človek or Čelovek (huMAN) derives from "Čelo" (forhead; Shiva's(Svetovid's) forhead) and Vek (=Yuga; vYuga; Vyuka; Vijek... "Era" and "kalpa" (Kaplja "drop", "time"). When I have combined both stories I understood why our ancestors spoke about "Svetovid's dream" (which is Shiva's deep meditation called Samadhi; human as a "mind of Shiva")...Our mythology was perverted and almost destroyed with arrival of Christianity. That's why I do not agree with "official" linguistics and with those who call our original faith "pagan barbaric religion" (which was not)...

 
Could you present us with linguistic analyses done by experts of relationship of IE languages to Rigveda. Reading few examples of similarities only proves that there is a relationship, as we can expect both languages being IE in origin.





Christian writers, parasites decided to keep the word;
To ridicule someone's religion and presenting your "crazy" beliefs as true is very arrogant to say the least. Did you ever try to be objective and tolerant?


hence the "3 Volhvs("holy 3 kings who brought gifts to baby Jesus") come from in later Russian and Ukrainian Bible..
You mean that Catholics changed their bible story because Orthodox invented 3 kings? You mean that 3 kings didn't exist till about 10 hundreds AD, the time of first Kievan Rus became christian? This is bananas!




I have only recently discovered huge Vedic background of Slovenian mythology. For example Shiva was god Svetovid.
If you will understand the Vedic story of Shiva's Mangala (this is "Manu"(Man; "human")-Gala (throat, voice, seaGul; Galus, Galeb, Glagolica; Ghaul, Kelt("Celt")) then you will understand the Slovene "pagan" story of Svetovid
Svetovit belonged to all Slavs not only Slovene.

and why Slavic Človek or Čelovek (huMAN) derives from "Čelo" (forhead; Shiva's(Svetovid's) forhead) and Vek (=Yuga; vYuga; Vyuka; Vijek... "Era" and "kalpa" (Kaplja "drop", "time"). When I have combined both stories I understood why our ancestors spoke about "Svetovid's dream" (which is Shiva's deep meditation called Samadhi; human as a "mind of Shiva")...Our mythology was perverted and almost destroyed with arrival of Christianity. That's why I do not agree with "official" linguistics and with those who call our original faith "pagan barbaric religion" (which was not)...
I've never heard of any Slavic pagan believes being written down in original form. Where is the source of Sviatovit creating the world mith?


Little advice. When you presenting an "alternative" version of history, please be very generous in presenting any original, scientific, expert sources to support your points. Otherwise people won't take you seriously, and only you can expect our liberal opinion on your beliefs, and many sarcastic remarks.
 
Where is the source of Sviatovit creating the world mith?

It survived in oral mythologies and books quoted by several authors (including Janez Trdina; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janez_Trdina and his book "Povesti iz Gorjancev").
There survived at least 4 Cosmogonial myths (tales) in Slovenia regards to the god Svetovid. Earth was always portrayed as the "little sand in the great Sea where everything remains still if you put it there"... and human came (fell down) to planet Earth as Svetovid's "drop of sweat" from his forhead...
The Old faith survived vividly until the 1st world war. We know that there lived last priests or better said priestesses even until the end of 1960...They were performing the ritual called Osvatina or "newborn fire" (at every winter solstice, December 21.–23.). The tradition slowly died out because it was forbidden by Communist regime and before that restricted and forbidden by the Church. How ever there still live descendants of the old believers and several people claim that somebody is still bringing several symbols ("snake heads" (stones of special shapes) to special holy locations...

Regards to the "3 kings". The story came from Egyptian mythology before ended up in Byzantium and Rome. It was easily "assimilated" into our 3 "fairies" who were predicting future of the newborn baby (vile (fairies) rojenice, sojenice)
http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sojenice
The most famous of all gods was also golden haired Kresnik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kresnik_(deity) from the "9th land" (probably shares similarity with Ygdrasil) . He was born after "9 human years" (old Slavic week have had 9 days and a Synodic month with 3 weeks * 9 days; (this was 1 Nakshatra in Vedas). The Slavic term 9 (Devet or Devyat) derives from Deva and means "god" or "godly", "divno" (divine). (also check the "mysterious Dante's 9 cycles of Hell; it seems that he knew about the old, pre christian europe very well)
Kresnik (kres = bonfire, uskrs, vaskrs in several other Slavic languages means "enliven"; "Incarnate"; Krs-Na; "to incarnate on") or "smasher" (Pariti, Par, pair, Parun, Perun) was a Karantanian form, Avatar of "Perun"... His cult survived until 20th century too in folks tradition.
That's why those who claim that Slavic Old faith was "barbaric" are etnocentric, ignorant. Fact is that Christianity "borrowed" (stole) old tradition and festivals, renamed gods (Godi; Bogi in cycles of the Koledar(Calendar) into "Saints" (when a child was born he carried name of his protector - God in every year-365 days), destroyed old cultures of Europe, Russia and wrote history "according to its own belief" - during Dark Middle Inquisitious ages... This is how we "lost" our memory about our past. Everything was destroyed. More than half of the Slovene territory was later Gothicized in current Austria.
 
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You're both go around too much. Let's stick to one subject. For example that "Slavic migration in 5th-6th century".
Do we have any Y-DNA results from Pannononian basin, Slavonia before 5th century?
 
Often Scythians worked as auxiliary troops in Roman armies, so I think they had rather good relationship. Besides after 5th century BC Scythians and Sarmatians vanished from history. Some of them were Slavicized.

they vanished into the thin air...

"Yes they did. They showed up suddenly in written records and we see huge archeological cultural change."

Show me your sources and a proof of that (archeological), not written. I could write many things. But these things do not need to be correct.
Besides why would Iranians "slavicize" when Slavs were still not "cultural"...The Holy Roman Church was needed and the Aryan Germans, Italians and Greeks were sent to them and taught them to write and to live and speak human languages...

sythians where iranic people who spoke a language that belonged to the Eastern Iranian family of languages.
and
The Sarmatians (Latin: Sarmatæ or Sauromatæ, Greek: Σαρμάται, Σαυρομάται) were an Iranian people of the classical antiquity period, flourishing from about the 5th century BC to the 4th century AD.[1][2] They spoke Scythian, an Indo-European language from the Eastern Iranian family.

For both, Same ethnicity, same Eastern Iranian language group.
Romans and Greeks knew of these people , fought against these people, hired these people and yet NEVER mentioned any term of Slav in their literature.

The sarmatians where absorbed around 150 to 200AD by the migrating Goths from the North. THey ceased to exist as a people AND the Romans only referred to the term, sarmatians after ~200AD as confederate troops in the Gothic armies of the black sea area.

The slavs came around in the 5th century and abosorbed into their society in the Polesie ( border area of Ukraine and belarussia ) the remanants of sythians, sarmatians and any other people that sort refuge in this forested area.

But your nationalistic theme seems to think that these Scythians and sarmatians where ALWAYS slavs because the slavs absorbed them in the end.
 
"You're both go around too much. Let's stick to one subject. For example that "Slavic migration in 5th-6th century".
Do we have any Y-DNA results from Pannononian basin, Slavonia before 5th century?"

I doubt about that. If anybody finds any a grave here, they do not make any genetic studies on the remains, because they are already so Determined and confident in their own "truth" that there does not exist a second option. (as I've already mentioned in my posts; there was not found any trace of Asian N patrimonial haplogroup - or any proof of migrations from Asia - check the genetic markers above)... The world was once colorful as it is today. You can see that from similar languages, mythologies. People were migrating constantly. You could have many tribes on one territory. And Romans were simply naming them as they wanted. Of course there was a Roman empire, all the way to the Great Britain, Middle east, you will find Roman coins everywhere you go. But that does not mean that these people were exclusively romans or celts or iranians. You could also have Balts here, who knows. I agree with you that historians should take genetic studies in history more seriously. As I wanted to portrait the mythology of Slovenes above through different eyes, not through the Jesuitic (Dark Middle ages)(several Vedic scholars would understand my comparisions of Slovene cosmogonic tales about Svetovid in comparision with Varaha and Shiva's Mangala (loka). Here in Europe several scholars have always rather rather see these things through the "barbaric, primitive" eyes. And everything which was not part of the "Biblic history" became false and wrong, barbaric, primitive and "satanic". That's why they burned many people on stakes and destroyed everything from the old times. There did not remain 1 single antique library.
 
"You're both go around too much. Let's stick to one subject. For example that "Slavic migration in 5th-6th century".
Do we have any Y-DNA results from Pannononian basin, Slavonia before 5th century?"

I doubt about that. If anybody finds any a grave here, they do not make any genetic studies on the remains, because they are already so Determined and confident in their own "truth" that there does not exist a second option. The world was once colorful as it is today. You can see that from similar languages, mythologies. People were migrating constantly. You could have many tribes on one territory. And Romans were simply naming them as they wanted. Of course there was a Roman empire, all the way to the Great Britain, Middle east, you will find Roman coins everywhere you go. But that does not mean that these people were exclusively romans or celts or iranians. You could also have Balts here, who knows. I agree with you that historians should take genetic studies in history more often. As I wanted to portrait the mythology of Slovenes above through different eyes, not through the Jesuitic (Dark Middle ages)(several Vedic scholars would understand my comparisions of Slovene cosmogonic tales about Svetovid in comparision with Varaha and Shiva's Mangala (loka). Here in Europe several scholars have always rather rather see these things through the "barbaric, primitive" eyes. And everything which was not part of the "Biblic history" became false and wrong, barbaric, primitive and "satanic". That's why they burned many people on stakes and destroyed everything from the old times. There did not remain 1 single antique library.

Language does not make ethnicity
Did all of Europe become Romans because everyone spoke Latin,
today , are we wall English because we speak English!

Language does not indicate anything in regards to genetics or ethnicity .............you on the wrong track to discover the origins of slavs
 
Regards to the term "Slav". It is a perversion of the term Sklavenoi or Sklabenoi or Sklavines, etc. The word was generally invented by one of the Czech panslavist in 19th century... He simply ignored other Slavic tribes and rather used term for all Slovak & Slovene tribes(only)... Not all Slavic tribes were Slovenes. And the term Sklavenoi is a fusion of 2 different Slavic tribes; Herodotus's transliteration of Sokolot (Skolotoi (Scythian)) which is "Skolot" or Sokolot or "Sokol" (Falcon); eastern Slavic tribes, among Antes and western "Venedi". After "arrival" (mixing; eastern men were seeking "western" brides, but there was no "mass migration" ever found. Everything you hear or read is a purest lie) between 2 Slavic tribes in 1-9th century, they named themselves; S(o)kolo-Veni. Ven = Venet and Skla or Sklo, Stlo (in different transmutations, transliterations) they carried their name in "regnum Sklaborum"(betatism v/b), instead that Samo was still called "Ven(et)ic king".
 
Regards to the term "Slav". It is a perversion of the term Sklavenoi or Sklabenoi or Sklavines, etc. The word was generally invented by one of the Czech panslavist in 19th century... He simply ignored other Slavic tribes and rather used term for all Slovak & Slovene tribes... Not all Slavic tribes were Slovenes. And the term Sklavenoi is a fusion of 2 different Slavic tribes; Herodotus's transliteration of Sokolot (Skolotoi (Scythian)) which is "Skolot" or Sokolot or "Sokol" (Falcon); eastern Slavic tribes, among Antes and western "Venedi". After "arrival" (mixing) between 2 Slavic tribes in 1-9th century, they named themselves; S(o)kolo-Veni. Ven = Venet and Skla or Sklo, Stlo (in different transmutations, transliterations) they carried their name in "regnum Sklaborum", instead that Samo was still called "Ven(et)ic king".

sorry to say you but, archeologists have found venetic remains from 1150BC , the finds are 88% in North-east Italy, 9% in Austria heading up to Innsbruck and 3% in western Slovenia.

So are you saying that slavs where in Italy from 1150BC!............is this what you mean?
 
No, there were no "Slavs" as we know them today at that time in current Slovenia, Austria yet, instead there could be traced several linguistic similarities with Slavic, Baltic if you wish; like were inscriptions about god Trimuziadi or Trimužiad(Triglav mountain, Trinitarian god, Trimurti,...); "3 men". "Trimuziatei donom" (Donašam, (Danem, Dam darujem ) Trimužiadu; "i am bringing a gift to Trimuziadi" - I donate Trimuziadi)... Closer we go to the Italian border, bigger were their linguistic diversities, assimilation into the Romanic languages.
 
Where is the source of Sviatovit creating the world mith?

It survived in oral mythologies and books quoted by several authors (including Janez Trdina; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janez_Trdina and his book "Povesti iz Gorjancev").
There survived at least 4 Cosmogonial myths (tales) in Slovenia regards to the god Svetovid. Earth was always portrayed as the "little sand in the great Sea"... and human came (fell down) to planet Earth as Svetovid's "drop of sweat" from his forhead...
The Old faith survived vividly until the 1st world war. We know that there lived last priests or better said priestesses even until the end of 1960...They were performing the ritual called Osvatina or "newborn fire" (at every winter solstice, December 21.–23.). The tradition slowly died out because it was forbidden by Communist regime and before that restricted and forbidden by the Church. How ever there still live descendants of the old believers and several people claim that somebody is still bringing several symbols ("snake heads" (stones of special shapes) to special holy locations...
Basically that's what we have and will ever have, just little snippets of old beliefs, based on few folk legends. It is impossible to recreate old religion in authentic form. Any modern "pagans" trying to follow this old religion are using a very crude imitation of old religion. Polish/Lithuanians writers of Romanticism wrote many stories based on folk legends. There were many spirits and nymphs, but not much about main gods like Perun and Sviatovit. They were almost all gone and forgotten by 17th century. Christianity entered some parts of Lithuania relatively late around 14 hundreds. If anything surviving of old religion would be found there. In this case I honestly doubt that you can find surviving pagan priestesses in Slovenia more than 1,000 after being Christian. After 500 years of Christianity in Mexico and if not the written monk's documents and Mayans inscriptions we wouldn't know much about their old religion. It should give you a realistic perspective on possibility of surviving Slovenia's old beliefs.

Regards to the "3 kings". The story came from Egyptian mythology before ended up in Byzantium and Rome. It was easily "assimilated" into our 3 "fairies" who were predicting future of the newborn baby (vile (fairies) rojenice, sojenice)
I thought you said it was taken from a Russian bible?

Slavic week have had 9 days and a Synodic month with 3 weeks * 9 days; (this was 1 Nakshatra in Vedas). The Slavic term 9 (Devet or Devyat) derives from Deva and means "god" or "godly", "divno" (divine). (also check the "mysterious Dante's 9 cycles of Hell; it seems that he knew about the old, pre christian europe very well)
Sounds plausible.

Kresnik (kres = bonfire, uskrs, vaskrs in several other Slavic languages means "enliven"; "Incarnate"; Krs-Na; "to incarnate on") or "smasher" (Pariti, Par, pair, Parun, Perun) was a Karantanian form, Avatar of "Perun"... His cult survived until 20th century too in folks tradition.
I think you are reaching too far.

That's why those who claim that Slavic Old faith was "barbaric" are etnocentric, ignorant. Fact is that Christianity "borrowed" (stole) old tradition and festivals, renamed gods (Godi; Bogi in cycles of the Koledar(Calendar) into "Saints" (when a child was born he carried name for his protector - God in every year), destroyed old cultures of Europe, Russia and wrote history "according to its own belief" - during Dark Middle Inquisitious ages... This is how we "lost" our memory about our past. Everything was destroyed. More than half of the Slovene territory was later Gothicized in current Austria.
Every new religion borrows elements from older ones. It also means that old Slavic religion borrowed something from even older beliefs, and beliefs of neighbors and conquerors. Religions also evolve with times.
It also doesn't mean that older religions are truer or better than newer ones, and vice versa. In both cases they are just beliefs in supernatural, just beliefs.
 
sorry to say you but, archeologists have found venetic remains from 1150BC , the finds are 88% in North-east Italy, 9% in Austria heading up to Innsbruck and 3% in western Slovenia.

So are you saying that slavs where in Italy from 1150BC!............is this what you mean?

No, dude, I think he's not trying to say that. He just think Slavs are older than 6th century in that area. That is not surprising since it's official on this website that:

"Historically, no other part of Europe was invaded a higher number of times by steppe peoples than the Balkans. Chronologically, the first R1a invaders came with the westward expansion of the Yamna culture (from 4200 BCE), a succession of steppe migrations that lasted about 2000 years. Then came the Thracians (1500 BCE), followed by the Illyrians (around 1200 BCE), the Huns and the Alans (400 CE), the Avars, the Bulgars and the Serbs (all around 600 CE), and the Magyars (900 CE), among others."

There are a lot of options left open, one of which is his theory, and, as he stated, scientists here do not think so and are not open for any of those interpretations, so they don't conduct genetic research. Until they change their approach, we will have no better knowledge of the history.

Romans and Greeks knew of these people , fought against these people, hired these people and yet NEVER mentioned any term of Slav in their literature.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that they were not there, even under different name or speaking different language. For example, he mentioned deities, and Svantevid. You can clearly find an Illyrian theonym Vidasus, on this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_languages#Illyrian_theonyms
 
Analiza Y-DNK haplotipov Slovencev (Manfreda, Vrečko, 2014)

Dober dan!
Kogar zanimajo podrobnosti, so v referatu in na blogu. Tukaj je povzetek v slovenščini in angleščini.

Povzetek referata: Analiza Y-DNK haplotipov Slovencev (Manfreda, Vrečko, 2014) Več je na blogu - sloveniadna - na wordpress

Povzetek


V prispevku je predstavljena genetska analiza Slovencev na osnovi Y-DNK haplotipov, ki se dedujejo po očetu. Analizo sva naredila s 458 haplotipi dolžine od 9 do 43 označevalcev iz celotne Slovenije. Namen analize je bil določiti sorodnost z drugimi narodi ter oceniti okvirne smeri ter povprečne čase zadnjih selitev prednikov Slovencev. Z uporabo Atheyjevega ter Cullen in Nordtvedtovega spletnega programa sva razvrstila haplotipe iz Slovenije v podskupine. Najpogostejša genetska skupina v Sloveniji je R1a (38,7 ± 4,5 %), sledijo I2a1b (17,9 ± 3,5 %), R1b (16,2 ± 3,8 %), I1 (10,5 ± 2,8 %), itd. Z uporabo Kilin-Klyosovega kalkulatorja sva izračunala čase do skupnega prednika za večino Y-DNK skupin iz Slovenije. Skupni prednik slovenske R1a naj bi živel pred 3975 ± 799 leti, prednik I2a1b pred 2336 ± 351 leti, R1b pred 7534 ± 1152 leti in I1 pred 2886 ± 510 leti. Na osnovi lokacij 253 slovenskih haplotipov sva določila deleže Y-DNK skupin v Sloveniji po regijah. Ugotovila sva, da Slovenska R1a spada skorajda v celoti v evropsko Z282, znotraj nje pa verjetno v južno baltsko, volgino karpatsko in staro karpatsko ter zahodno slovansko (klasifikacija FTDNA) podskupino. Slovensko južno baltsko skupino sestavljajo večinoma haplotipi mlajše baltsko karpatske podskupine (po Klyosovu), ki predstavlja približno četrtino slovenske R1a. Največ R1a skupine je med beneškimi Slovenci, najstarejša pa je v Prekmurju. Haplotipi znotraj genetske skupine I2a1b-M423 so skoraj vsi severno dinarski, le nekaj jih je južno dinarskih, več te skupine je v Spodnjem Posavju. Haplotipi R1b so predvsem alpski R1b1a2a1a2b-U152/S28 in severozahodno evropski R1b1a2a1a1-U106/S21. Največ R1b sva našla na Goriškem, kjer morda celo presega delež R1a. Slovenski I1-M253 haplotipi so predvsem v zahodno in centralno evropskih vejah. Nekaj haplotipov je tudi nordijskih, bolj povezanih s Švedsko kot z Norveško, nekaj pa je vzhodnoevropskih. Več I1 je na Goriškem, kjer je po deležu enaka R1b. Na osnovi primerjave 200 daljših haplotipov iz Slovenije z drugimi iz spletne baze Ysearch sva izračunala okvirne čase selitev prednikov Slovencev. Rezultati kažejo, da se je verjetno več kot polovica prednikov Slovencev na tem prostoru naselila v času bronaste in železne dobe. Zadnji naselitveni val v zgodnjem srednjem veku pa bi lahko k današnjemu Y-DNK bazenu Slovencev prispeval 20-50 % genov. Okrog 5-10 % slovenske Y-DNK je v starih genetskih skupinah, kar kaže, da bi lahko nekaj moških prednikov današnjih Slovencev na tem prostoru živelo že pred bronasto dobo. Poiskala sva kraje, kjer sva v bazi YHRD našla največ različnih izmed 33 najpogostejših haplotipov iz Slovenije dolžine 9 označevalcev in države, kjer sva v bazi Ysearch našla največ haplotipov dolžine od 32 do 43 označevalcev, ki so najbližji Slovenskim po posameznih skupinah. Največ najbližjih haplotipov R1a in I2a1b sva našla v Rusiji in na Poljskem, R1a tudi na Češkem in v Nemčiji, I2a1b tudi v Ukrajini in na Balkanu, R1b in I1 v Nemčiji, Belgiji, Angliji in Irski, R1b tudi v Italiji in I1 tudi na Švedskem. Nekatere od teh držav nakazujejo možne smeri zadnjih selitev prednikov Slovencev. Selitve prednikov skupin R1a in I2a1b bi lahko potekale s severovzhoda, slednje deloma tudi z jugovzhoda, selitve prednikov skupine R1b bi lahko potekale s severa in zahoda, skupine I1 pa s severa.
:rolleyes:
This paper presents genetic analysis of Slovenes based on Y-DNA haplotypes, which are inherited from father. Analysis was performed with 458 haplotypes (from 9 to 43 markers) from all over Slovenia. The purpose of the analysis was to determine similarities with other nations and estimate the time and direction of migrations of Slovene ancestors. Haplotypes were grouped into the subgroups by using the Athey’s and Cullen&Nordtvedt’s web predictors. The most common haplogroup in Slovenia is R1a (38.7 ± 4.5%), followed by I2a1b (17.9 ± 3.5%), R1b (16.2 ± 3.4%), I1 (10.5 ± 2.8%), etc. Kilin-Klyosov’s estimator was used to calculate times to the most recent common ancestor for the most of the Y-DNA haplogroups of Slovenes. The most recent common ancestor of Slovene R1a lived 3975 ± 799 years ago, ancestor of I2a1b lived 2336 ± 351 years ago, ancestor of R1b 7534 ± 1152 years ago and ancestor of I1 2886 ± 510 years ago. Based on locations of 253 Slovenian haplotypes the frequencies of Y-DNA haplogroups in Slovenia were obtained by region. Slovenian R1a belongs almost entirely to the European subgroup Z282 and within it probably into the southern Baltic, Volga-Carpathian, old Carpathian and western Slavic (FTDNA classification) subgroups. Slovenian southern Baltic subgroup consists of mostly young haplotypes from Baltic-Carpathian subgroup (according to Klyosov). This accounts for more than a quarter of the Slovenian R1a. The highest frequency of R1a is found among the Slovenes from the Veneto region in Italy and the oldest one in Prekmurje. Haplotypes in haplogroup I2a1b-M423 are almost all from the north Dinaric subgroup, only a few of them are from south Dinaric subgroup. The highest frequency of this group is found in the lower Sava valley region. R1b haplotypes belong mostly to the Alpine (U152) and North West European (U106) subgroups. The highest frequency of R1b is found in the province of Gorica where it perhaps exceeds the frequency of R1a. Slovenian I1-M253 haplotypes mainly belong to the West and Central European branches. Some haplotypes also belong to the Nordic subgroup, more associated with Sweden than Norway, and some to the Eastern European subgroup. The highest frequency of I1 is found in the province of Gorica, where it is equal to R1b. By comparing 200 haplotypes (from 32 to 43 markers) from Slovenia to others in the web database Ysearch the average migration times of Slovene ancestors were calculated. Results show that probably more than a half of Slovene ancestors settled in this territory during the Bronze and Iron Age. The latest bigger wave of migration in the Early Middle Ages probably contributed 20-50 % of the genes to the Y-DNA pool of today’s Slovenes. On the other hand 5-10 % of Slovenian Y-DNA belongs to the old subgroups, which indicates that some of male ancestors lived in this territory before the Bronze Age. The countries, in which the variety of 33 most common Slovene haplotypes (9 markers) is the highest, were found in the database YHRD. From the database Ysearch we selected the countries with the highest number of haplotypes (from 32 to 43 markers) that are the closest to the Slovenian. The most common and the closest haplotypes within groups R1a and I2a1b were found in Russia and Poland, within R1a also in Czech Republic and Germany and within I2a1b also in Ukraine and Balkans. The most common and the closest haplotypes within R1b and I1 were found in Germany, Belgium, England and Ireland, within R1b also in Italy and within I1 also in Sweden. Some of these countries indicate possible directions of the last migrations of the ancestors of Slovenes. Migration within groups R1a and I2a1b most probably took place from the northeast, the latter partly from the southeast. Migration of ancestors within group R1b most probably took place from the north and west and the migration within the group I1 from the north.
 
Dober dan!
Kogar zanimajo podrobnosti, so v referatu in na blogu. Tukaj je povzetek v slovenščini in angleščini.

Povzetek referata: Analiza Y-DNK haplotipov Slovencev (Manfreda, Vrečko, 2014) Več je na blogu - sloveniadna - na wordpress

Povzetek

Great find Marjeta. Finally regional studies coming in with much better resolution.

. Results show that probably more than a half of Slovene ancestors settled in this territory during the Bronze and Iron Age. The latest bigger wave of migration in the Early Middle Ages probably contributed 20-50 % of the genes to the Y-DNA pool of today’s Slovenes. On the other hand 5-10 % of Slovenian Y-DNA belongs to the old subgroups, which indicates that some of male ancestors lived in this territory before the Bronze Age. The countries, in which the variety of 33 most common Slovene haplotypes (9 markers) is the highest, were found in the database YHRD.[/QUOTE]
I think the Y haplogroups replacements correspond to EEF farmers' groups being replaced by IE, and later Slavic (20-50%, which came from North-East, as paper says).


Migration within groups R1a and I2a1b most probably took place from the northeast, the latter partly from the southeast. Migration of ancestors within group R1b most probably took place from the north and west and the migration within the group I1 from the north.
 
Which is a proof that there never existed some major Slavic migration in 6th century "AD". Among all of these facts, there are no traces (0%) of any N patrimonial haplogroups which would indicate any migration with "Avars" from the east and northeast.

"later Slavic (20-50%, which came from North-East, as paper says)." According to recent archeological studies, this (minor) migration occured already since 1st century AD, and not since 6th century as it is still believed. This fact was confirmed with studies in Prekmurje region where are the R1a haplogroups the most common. The same branch(haplogroup) appeared in current Austria (that's why are claims that Austrian R1a1a haplogroup (especially) belonged to Germans rather bald; otherwise they would simply deny the fact that Slavs(eastern tribes called Antes or Anti) ever existed... ). There still exist old theory of Slavs which rather ignores the newest genetic and archeological indications on this territory and keeps going with its claims about some "major slavic invasion in 6th century". With other words; the R1a haplogroup belonged to the Slavic branch of the Antes (according to Jordanes), when I2a1b belonged to the Sclaveni or Vens (another branch of Venetic Slavs according to Jordanes). The recent migration of men (women did not migrate) from territories of curren Ukraine could explain the theory that Antes looked for brides in current territories of Slovenia. Language was not a major problem, that's why there were never found any indications of some major revolts or wars.
 
Which is a proof that there never existed some major Slavic migration in 6th century "AD". Among all of these facts, there are no traces (0%) of any N patrimonial haplogroups which would indicate any migration with "Avars" from the east and northeast.

"later Slavic (20-50%, which came from North-East, as paper says)." According to recent archeological studies, this (minor) migration occured already since 1st century AD, and not since 6th century as it is still believed. This fact was confirmed with studies in Prekmurje region where are the R1a haplogroups the most common. The same branch(haplogroup) appeared in current Austria (that's why are claims that Austrian R1a1a haplogroup (especially) belonged to Germans rather bald; otherwise they would simply deny the fact that Slavs(eastern tribes called Antes or Anti) ever existed... ). There still exist old theory of Slavs which rather ignores the newest genetic and archeological indications on this territory and keeps going with its claims about some "major slavic invasion in 6th century". With other words; the R1a haplogroup belonged to the Slavic branch of the Antes (according to Jordanes), when I2a1b belonged to the Sclaveni or Vens (another branch of Venetic Slavs according to Jordanes). The recent migration of men (women did not migrate) from territories of curren Ukraine could explain the theory that Antes looked for brides in current territories of Slovenia. Language was not a major problem, that's why there were never found any indications of some major revolts or wars.

there is R1a and R1b in europe before there where any germans, slavs, greeks or any other tribal race............the germanics did not enter austria until about 500AD ( no germans where south of the danube while the Roman empire existed) .
There is another ancient race in the area, the race of the alpine people, the modern slavs, germans and italians seem to forget this intentionally because it does not fit their modern national molds.
 

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