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Research about R1b-U152: probably Roman (and italic) origin, not Gallic
Hello to all, my name is Leonardo, and it's my personal research about the origin of U152.
I found this site very interesting, and probably one of the most "fertile" in regard to research and discussion of genetic issues. First, I ask forgiveness for not introducing myself into the "department" of this forum, and because the English with which I am writing my research is not very good (i prepare this research for italians readers, and so i had to use "google translate" fo translate it), if there should be any doubt do not hesitate to ask. I am very happy to discuss this issue with you all
The main debate took place on the EU-152 (previously S28) to its origin. There was talk of its spread due to the "Culture of La Tene," developed during three historical periods ranging from sixth to first century BC, represents for many the "mother" culture is improperly called "Celtic" - because it improperly There was never political unity, social and even cultural cooperation between the various entities defined as "Celtic" - and in the case of "civilization" Gallic developed in France, Iberia and northern Italy. Although they have never been conducted real scientific research and historical insights on the historical and ethnic classification of U-152 off the record it is very often (and perhaps erroneously) associated with the aforementioned Celtic culture, that this association is often occurred due to a random series of events very often, in fact the result of coincidences almost never connected to each other: the underrated done, for example, that France was one of the first countries to conduct genetic research on the local population has contributed enormously to "Because Celtic", because, in statistical terms, was initially found a fair number of U-152 in France, the quantity that can not be compared to the frequencies of subclade of other countries (because genetics was the dawn, or in any case because samples "foreign" were far less numerous) deceived the various scholars, who associated it, always in an unofficial, the U-152 to the native land of the Gauls, France. Over the years there were, however, new research also and especially in other European countries, and it turned out that in many areas outside of France (and very often never touched by the Gauls and the like) the frequency of U-152 was very high , along with Switzerland, Italy is one of its most countries with high prevalence, in fact, of 283 samples analyzed R1b (country-wide) 150 are belong to the U-152 (In the northern and southern Italy, analyzed 124 samples for each of the two areas, for the first 64 and 60 belong to the second subclade in question). At first they tried to justify the presence of U-152 through historical connections (in Northern Italy with the presence of ancient Gaul, for example), but once the frequencies "foreign" exceeded (sometimes also far), the French began to doubt the actual relationship between the U-152 and the Gallo-Celtic populations, however, preferring to cover up everything with a "hic sunt leones", drawing a deep gulf between "genetic" and "history" , to each his own words.
The development of this research, for convenience collective, using simple and schematic will go on "points", but where the argument requires it we will engage in a more detailed analysis, breaking away from the overall preparation of the article.
The inconsistency between a historical U152 Celtic and the high spread of the islands of Sardinia and Corsica.
Since the U152 very common in the islands of Sardinia and Corsica (the latter then with very high frequency) urgently address the issue precisely "island" of this marker, analyzing the facts since the classical age.
The impossibility of a connection between the Celts and the islands in question
1) At no time in history men belonging to different cultures, "Gallo-Celtic" penetrated the
islands of Sardinia and Corsica, it will as settlers as invaders.
2) The dialect course is one of the closest to Italian standards, much closer to
Southern Italian dialects and the Tuscan dialect, a fact due to the Roman colonization
island, mainly occurred through settlers from southern Italy. If within these
cores - for talking nonsense - there had been a large number of Gauls, also seen
the isolation of Corsica for a long time, certainly you could sense the linguistic
3) Race Ethnicity is widely recognized as being part of a branch of Italy, Sardinia
(Nuragic) or at most Ligure, and is therefore ruled out the possibility that so-called
"Courses antiquity can't be classified as "Celtic ";
4) Similar can be said for Sardinia, a land where, by tradition, culture and language,
Celtic influences you hear; ethnicity "Sardinian" is in fact composed mostly of old
Native Nuragici and to a lesser extent by Roman Italic settlers arrived in Roman times.
The inconsistency of the possible evidence for a link between the Celts and the islands in question.
1) As absurd as it may consider U-152 a marker Germanic, and justify its
distribution in Corsica with the barbarian invasions of the fifth century AD, but the
domination of Germanic
island, which lasted little more than 60 years, left no traces, it genetic, cultural or
artistic, and still did not explain the spread in Sardinia;
2) Since the U-152 is extremely widespread in Liguria, you might think that (assuming
truly absurd for a link between the Ligurian Sea and the Gauls) its
penetration in Corsica to Genoa following the long domination of the island, but you
have to say on the island where the Genoese established themselves there are very
evident traces of their passage, where the heritage language (the dialect of Ligurian
Colonial is still common in some
small areas of Corsica), but these are very limited.
3) The Corsica Though dominated for about 3 centuries dominated by France, it is very
difficult credited to settlers from the latter high-frequency dell'U152 island
primarily for these reasons: until after the second war were not kept in Corsica
high esteem by the French, who as a destination much preferred the colonial lands
of Africa, the advent of the Franco-Algerian veterans and displaced persons in the
island after Algerian independence was pretty ridiculous, and however, for historical
and cultural reasons,
The French minority race has always kept a distance from the natives, we can finally
added that any non-genetic researcher
would certainly have chosen the French residents in Corsica to study the genetics of
the population native island, and is much more likely (indeed, almost certain) that the
samples chosen belonged to ethnic course-Italian.
4) As absurd as it may be assumed that some Gauls are established in the islands as
slaves, but precisely because of their condition, certainly could not imagine their
integration into Sardinian-Corsican tissue, or at least not so that they can afford such
a high frequency dell'U152
It therefore seems very difficult - probably the biggest stumbling block - for supporters of the marker "Celtic" to justify its high spreading in areas where the island where the Celts and Gauls have never set foot.
On the spread of the marker U-152 in southern Italy
1) In the classical era of Gauls settled in Magna Graecia if they have heard only at
mercenary, warriors often belonging to the tribe of Senonian that, by embarking
ports Piceno in the Marche, you put the pay of the Sicilian tyrants. Their number,
very small, and their use took place almost exclusively in the island of Sicily, and not
in mainland Italy.
2) As absurd as it may suggest a penetration in the south through Hannibal
across the Alps found that the tribes of Gaul and very willing to ally themselves with
him throw off the yoke of Rome, and once defeated the Carthaginian general,
however, the former socii
Romans who had betrayed the Urbe received no treatment "for a King", is therefore
plausible to think that the "traitors" Cisalpine were killed after the defeat of Hannibal.
3) On the slaves imported into Italy cocks like I can talk to on the islands:
their condition as slaves, freedmen, but also, did not provide all the integration
Southern secular fabric (but even in the entire Italian peninsula), rather
closed under this point of view, and that was
except only for the Greeks freed slaves (freedmen of almost all that I hear
Greeks are written in Roman). However the number of slaves in Italy do not you
think never exceeded 10% of the total population, then a percentage is too low for
justify the high prevalence of the marker U152.
4) Another hypothesis can be formulated on centuries of Norman rule (or the Nordic race) took place in the Middle Ages (High and Low) in southern Italy, a hypothesis which, however, clashes, hard, against the apparent "incompatibility" U -152 with the people of Germanic stock (ie the Normans) and especially against the fact that the Italian tribes who ruled the south were the narrow elite, and never happened - not even be supposed - a colonization of the southern part of the Germans, apart from rare exceptions that we now discuss.
5) At the coming of the Normans in southern Italy followed the establishment of some
small villages with settlers from Provence (Faeto cells and in Apulia), which, however
, is unthinkable and absurd to attribute the spread dell'U152.
6) Always following the establishment of the Altavilla in the South, occurred a few
repopulation of areas demographically depressed by the arrival of settlers Lombard,
Piedmont, Emilia Romagna and Liguria, which now has a clear track in the presence
of so-called "Gallo-Italic dialects of Sicily and Basilicata."
Even if and when that marker was linked to the populations of
North America, these settlers being limited in certain areas (province of Enna,
Province of Potenza Calabria and very small areas, such as "Guardia Piemontese"),
you do not however, explain the spread, for example, in dell'U152
areas not affected by this small settlement (Abruzzo, Molise, Lazio, Campania
U152 associating the marker to any Celtic population would therefore be very difficult to be able to justify such a high spread in southern Italy (often a little lower than that of northern Italy).
On the presence of U-152 in Europe and the Near East.
Other high-frequency dell'R1b U152 are, especially on the island of Crete, where almost 60% of the samples selected are members of haplogroup R1b to have the above-mentioned marker, and that, by excluding a priori the question "Celtic "(because the Celts did not saw in Crete), is largely explained by three assumptions: the penetration of people belonging all'U152 in Roman times (Crete was kept very classical age into consideration, it is strategic for the control of the whole eastern Mediterranean basin), the possibility that by the Dorians, Hellenic lineage of uncertain origin, and therefore perhaps Indo-European came from the Caucasus, the marker will be allocated on the island around the eleventh century BC, and finally it can be assumed that following of almost five centuries of Venetian rule the island, there are established the Italians, and so have brought with that marker.
However, the spread of U-152 seems to follow the incredibly ancient boundaries of the Roman Empire (except for rare exceptions), and its distribution in Europe could be the result of what modern historians call the first "globalization" of ' man: the Roman, which saw people of all races to move freely within the confines of Rome (with due exceptions)
On the presence of U-152 in Switzerland and the rest of Europe
Interesting observations on the issue can be spread from top to U-152 in south-central Switzerland, and special detail that, at first glance, it might lead us to reflect anew on the possibility of binding the marker with a Celtic-Germanic culture . But we analyze the issue more thoroughly.
1) The Helvetii, indeed penetrated Celtic population in the south-west of Switzerland,
may have been "carriers" of U-152, but history tells us about how they,
trying to leave their own land, were massacred by Gaius Julius Caesar in the
century BC, and the facts tell us a few survivors who rebelled again in Rome
the revolt of Vercingetorix, being overwhelmed again. It seems therefore impossible
that the "survivors of the survivors' return to Switzerland, after various struggles
against Rome, have
have affected the gene pool so much Helvetic.
2) With the fall of the Roman Empire, and the consequences penetration of Eastern
Germans Southern Switzerland fell under the blows of the tribe of the "Germans". A
feature common early medieval barbarian invasions, which brings various Germanic
tribes a similar organization, or substantially the method of integration with
subject populations: the creation of an elite under the Germanic whose boots they
were.Too few and too "elite" were the Germans, however, affect the evolution
Switzerland's population, and therefore we can not charge to which the spread
3) E 'may be possible to hypothesize that the high frequency of U-152 is due to the
cartel Roman colonization, which began in the Augustan age, and lasted for more than
three centuries, which saw from thousands of settlers from all over Italy (but not only)
and Roman veterans who was assigned to land in Switzerland.
The rest of Europe
Traces dell'U152 levels are low tend, more or less, in almost all other European countries, among which is important to remember France, southeast England, the north-eastern Spain, Germany Western and especially western Poland. How to explain these frequencies, although not very high, they do their part fairly? Not excluding a priori any of the origins of the marker in question could then list the various possibilities:
3) Romans (also intended Italic peoples of ancient Italy and others)
For the first hypothesis and the latter are immediately a huge problem: the tendency for low uptake of this marker in the countries which in fact should have been the cradle of Celtic and Germanic culture. In France it is with mid-bass in the south-eastern Europe continue to the UK, from where the sharp decrease in the frequency - France, however, despite the low-mid frequencies and the total lack of "centers" crucial U-152, arguably the country with the second highest number of U-152 in proportion to the vastness of the territory, in short it is, albeit sometimes in small part, a bit 'all over the country -, was This is the land, so also fairly uniform spread the Gauls, the Celtic people par excellence, whose numbers grew to several million in the years shortly before the Roman conquest. It therefore seems unlikely (though not impossible) that the core founding ethnic France has left so few traces of genetic, partly because it must be remembered, in the fourth century AD in Gaul was still spoken of Gallo-Roman culture, reflecting the fact that Celts, even at the time, historically represented the majority in the country (with appropriate exceptions).
Absolute similarity of this example can be done to Britain: a land populated by
Britons, the Celtic people who acted here as a core foundation for the island ethnic and post-Roman
Roman also here the frequency dell'U1-52 is very low, especially heading north,
where it seems to disappear altogether (and where it thrived even better than the Celts
southern British brothers).
Even for Germans it is more difficult, since they own the U152 does not seem to be linked in any way, also, and above all, the fact that it is extremely low frequencies (not even 1%, and sometimes disappearing at all) in the proto-Germanic countries (Sweden, Denmark and the Baltic in general) and the Germanic (Germany, Austria), here too there are some exceptions, such as the western part of Germany, which seems to present frequencies record (8-10%?) than the rest of the country and that seems to trace precisely the incredible part of Germany on this side of the old "Danube limes", where the Roman business prospered.
Also in Spain, the discourse is similar to earlier: relatively low frequencies and therefore not assignable nor the people nor to the Celtic-Iberian Iberian, also numerous, especially in the central part of the country.
The presence, albeit in low frequencies, in western Poland dell'R1b U152 presents us with a question that apparently remains unsolved, it is possible that this marker has literally "propelled" several km out of its "natural habitat" at frequencies that still amounted to 5-7% among the selected R1b? The answer may perhaps be sought in two periods: between the twelfth and the sixteenth century and the later Prussian domination of Western Poland. In the first case there was a real German colonization of the west of the country (just promoted from the various Polish nobles), where these settlers, look at home, often came from that part of Germany where the frequencies are made consistent dell'U152 . Another determining factor for the frequency of subclade in question may have been religious intolerance toward Catholics Lutheran Germans in the late sixteenth century, this event that may have migrated from the Catholic German settlers to the western regions of Poland, so enriched by other U152. Ultimately can not be ruled last, and decisive, penetration of the marker during the long domination of the Prussian (later German) of western Poland.
Following this lengthy discussion, it is time to take a firm decision on the possible origin of the Y chromosome R1b dell'aplogruppo marker U152 (S28): Italic-Roman, is, in our opinion, the correct answer, This subclade being popular in Italy and less frequently in colonized countries precisely by "Italian" in Roman times. Just as the French mid-bass should make us understand how they represent (perhaps) the Roman colonization of Gaul by the Romans free citizens and veterans, the ethnic proportions would also seem appropriate, since in today's France Enit "Roman" is always in minority (perhaps 10% of the population, a figure which comes very close to the frequencies of the marker) than Gallic, which therefore can not be credited for the U152 also purely statistical issues.
In Italy the design becomes much more clear: even if coming from the center-south, the Italians (and therefore also the Romans and the Venetians) found most of northern living space, almost depopulated as a result of various struggles against Rome, and where Indo-Italian populations could thrive without having to share the roof with people of Hellenic descent, something that had to do in the South, and for this fact in the south of the frequency dell'U152 is slightly lower, since the Italian population had to mix with those italiote (Magna Graecia), to lessen the frequency of the marker in question.