Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Frequencies of Near-Eastern R1b (ht35)

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,404
    Points
    281,446
    Level
    100
    Points: 281,446, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Post Frequencies of Near-Eastern R1b (ht35)



    It is often claimed that R1b is a typically Western European haplogroup. But that is untrue. R1b1b2a1a (P310/L11) is the subclade that is Western European, representing the Italic, Celtic and Germanic branches of Indo-European language speakers.

    All the subclades of R1b1b2 upstream in the tree (R1b1b2, R1b1b2a, R1b1b2a1) are typically referred to as R1b-ht35. They are characterised by the STR value DYS393=12 (as opposed to DYS393=13 in R1b1b2a1a).

    However this method has proved quite unreliable because many pre-L11 also have DYS393=13. Besides, all the Central Asian (R1b1b1), Middle Eastern (R1b-M73) and African R1b (R1b-V88) have DYS393=13.

    Ht35 represents mostly the lineages of R1b1b2 that remained in Anatolia after the Indo-European migrations through the Pontic steppes to Central, then Western Europe. Ht35 may be associated with the Anatolian (Hittite, Phrygian, etc.) Armenian and Greek branches of the Indo-European family.

    Outside Anatolia, ht35 is particularly common in South Italy and along the Adriatic coast of Italy. Overall, R1b-ht35 correlates strongly with the distribution of haplogroup J2.

    I wish that Y-DNA studies clearly separated subclades of R1b, or that there was at least one good pan-European study of ht35, but unfortunately there isn't. I tried to gather data here and there, analysing STR in studies that provided them.

    Here are the approximate values I have calculated based on DYS393=12 only. Keep in mind that the true percentages of pre-L11 are inevitably higher than this.

    (These are percentages of the total population, not percentages within R1b).

    Armenia = 9%
    Georgia = 8%
    Turkey = 13%
    Bulgaria = 9%
    Romania = 10%
    North Greece = 7%
    Greece = 5%

    Slovenia = 8%
    North Italy = 4-7%
    Central Italy = 4-11%
    South Italy = 8-11%
    Sicily = 6-11%

    Netherlands = 4.5%
    Belgium = 2.5%
    France = 0-13% (lowest Gascony, highest Parisian region)

    Spain = 1-7% (highest Catalonia and Valencia, lowest Cantabria)
    Portugal = 4.5%

    Wales : 0%
    England = 0-6%
    Scotland : 2%
    Ireland = 2.5%
    Norway = 4%
    Sweden = 2.5%
    Finland = 0.5%

    Poland = 4-5%
    North Germany = 2-4%
    West Germany = 4-6%
    East Germany = 3-5%
    South Germany = 4-7%
    Switzerland = 1-5%
    Austria = 3.5%
    Last edited by Maciamo; 03-09-11 at 08:45.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Dorianfinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-08-11
    Location
    Milos
    Posts
    395
    Points
    6,356
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,356, Level: 23
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 194
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellene
    Country: Greece



    Thanks for posting this Maciamo, the levels of ht-35 in Europe appear reasonable considering the levels of ht-15. The ht-35 in Europe in my view may have been considerably higher before the population explosion of R1b-U152, R1b-L21 and R1b-U106. The levels we have today need to be viewed in light of the very high fitness levels of these three ht-15 subclades.

  3. #3
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,404
    Points
    281,446
    Level
    100
    Points: 281,446, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Thanks for posting this Maciamo, the levels of ht-35 in Europe appear reasonable considering the levels of ht-15. The ht-35 in Europe in my view may have been considerably higher before the population explosion of R1b-U152, R1b-L21 and R1b-U106. The levels we have today need to be viewed in light of the very high fitness levels of these three ht-15 subclades.
    What makes you think that ht35 arrived in Western or Northern Europe before ht15 ? If ht35 spread alongside J2, it could also date from the Bronze Age, or even from the Iron Age (Greek and Roman expansions). The problem with ht35 is that it is not one subclade, but many, dating from different periods.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Dorianfinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-08-11
    Location
    Milos
    Posts
    395
    Points
    6,356
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,356, Level: 23
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 194
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellene
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What makes you think that ht35 arrived in Western or Northern Europe before ht15 ? If ht35 spread alongside J2, it could also date from the Bronze Age, or even from the Iron Age (Greek and Roman expansions). The problem with ht35 is that it is not one subclade, but many, dating from different periods.
    Exactly my point, the fact that ht-35 in West and North Europe is not confined to a few subclades and expresses the full monty of earlier R1b strands illustrates that it arrived pre-Greek/Roman expansion. If it was spread through Greek and Roman globalization we would find ht-35 where we find J but the pattern is not the same. In fact ht-35 dispersion is more in line with (though not the same) to HG I distribution when compared to J in Europe. If what you say did happen we would expect southern Italy and Greece to have a lot more ht-35.

  5. #5
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,404
    Points
    281,446
    Level
    100
    Points: 281,446, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Exactly my point, the fact that ht-35 in West and North Europe is not confined to a few subclades and expresses the full monty of earlier R1b strands illustrates that it arrived pre-Greek/Roman expansion. If it was spread through Greek and Roman globalization we would find ht-35 where we find J but the pattern is not the same. In fact ht-35 dispersion is more in line with (though not the same) to HG I distribution when compared to J in Europe. If what you say did happen we would expect southern Italy and Greece to have a lot more ht-35.
    That's not what I meant. Some subclades of ht35 are more common in some parts of Europe than others. It's not the same ht35 everywhere, which means that ht35 arrived through different people at different times. For example, Myres et al. 2010's study of R1b showed that R1b1b2a* (L23) was especially common around Switzerland (+ Baden-Württemberg and Alpine Italy), East Poland, Anatolia and the Caucasus. But L23 was almost completely absent from the rest of Europe, including South Italy, Iberia or the British Isles...

    I had a look at the huge database of the FTDNA Ireland Project and counted about 2% of R1b-ht35 based on DYS393=12. But I noticed that confirmed R-51 members, who are supposed to be ht35 too as they are upstream of L11, all have DYS393=13 ! Only R-L23 had DYS393=12. There is also 1.5% of Middle Eastern R1b1* (P25), and all are DYS393=13 too. In other words, there is certainly much more Near/Middle Eastern R1b than the ht35. In Ireland's case, I estimate it to be between 4 and 5%. AS the above data is solely based on DYS393 values, the actual number of pre-L11 subclades could be 2 or 3x higher in some countries.

    Belgium's Brabant DNA Project is the only wide-scale Y-DNA study I know that systematically tested for older subclades of R1b. But the data was very different from Ireland. Belgians have 1.7% of R1b1b2 upstream of L11/P310, but only 0.3% of R1b upstream of M269, including only 0.1% of R-P25. That's 15x less than in Ireland's 1.5% of R-P25. that's what I meant when I said there are big differences between countries for the proportion of older subclades of R1b.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Dorianfinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-08-11
    Location
    Milos
    Posts
    395
    Points
    6,356
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,356, Level: 23
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 194
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellene
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's not what I meant. Some subclades of ht35 are more common in some parts of Europe than others. It's not the same ht35 everywhere, which means that ht35 arrived through different people at different times. For example, Myres et al. 2010's study of R1b showed that R1b1b2a* (L23) was especially common around Switzerland (+ Baden-Württemberg and Alpine Italy), East Poland, Anatolia and the Caucasus. But L23 was almost completely absent from the rest of Europe, including South Italy, Iberia or the British Isles...

    I had a look at the huge database of the FTDNA Ireland Project and counted about 2% of R1b-ht35 based on DYS393=12. But I noticed that confirmed R-51 members, who are supposed to be ht35 too as they are upstream of L11, all have DYS393=13 ! Only R-L23 had DYS393=12. There is also 1.5% of Middle Eastern R1b1* (P25), and all are DYS393=13 too. In other words, there is certainly much more Near/Middle Eastern R1b than the ht35. In Ireland's case, I estimate it to be between 4 and 5%.
    There are quite a few ht-35 individuals who do NOT have DYS393=12 ... I classify all L23- as ht-35 and only use the STR markers to predict where SNP's have not been tested.

    Okay, so Myres et al. found L23* in the Swiss Alps ... the fact that they found no subclades upstream of L23* has been shown to be due to sampling. My figures indicate the following approximate levels of L23- in the Alpine region:

    Switzerland - Upper Rhone Valley 0%
    Switzerland National 1.1%
    Swtzerland - Lower Rhone Valley 2%
    Switzerland Northeast 3%

    The below L23* figures I have correlate nicely with the above L23-:

    Switzerland Northwest 3.7%
    Switzerland National 5.7%
    Switzerland - Upper Rhone Valley (small sample size!) 27.3% [possible founder effect in mountain Rhomansch community]

    The levels of L23* in Italy contrast with those of Switzerland in that Italy has approx. 1% if that much L23- suggesting an introduction into Italy from the South where L23- of Anatolia is plentiful. Switzerland has more L23- than Central and North Italy which contradicts Greek or Roman era globalization. The higher figures of L23- in South Italy are Anatolian brought along the southern corridor.

    Swiss L23- could be from an early migration from the Steppe region that also crossed into Germany and possibly even as far as Iberia.

    Note: R1b-U152 variance becomes higher as one travels northward from North Italy into Switzerland and from Switzerland into Germany and Northern France. This makes sense when we follow L23- in Europe.
    Last edited by Dorianfinder; 03-09-11 at 14:45.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Knovas's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-05-11
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,422
    Points
    5,511
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,511, Level: 21
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 39
    Overall activity: 66.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberian / Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    This estimation does not match for the moment autosomal data. DOD217 (Catalunya), DOD237 (Aragón/Valencia) DOD375 (Valencia) and DOD725 (Mostly Catalan), have very low near eastern. Note the last one has absolutely nothing (0%).

  8. #8
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,404
    Points
    281,446
    Level
    100
    Points: 281,446, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    This estimation does not match for the moment autosomal data. DOD217 (Catalunya), DOD237 (Aragón/Valencia) DOD375 (Valencia) and DOD725 (Mostly Catalan), have very low near eastern. Note the last one has absolutely nothing (0%).
    Near Eastern (basically Eastern Mediterranean, including Greece, Anatolia and the Levant) is made mostly of West Asian and Mediterranean elements. Middle Eastern (deeper inland as far as Iran, and deeper south as far as Yemen) includes West Asian, Southwest Asian as well as some Mediterranean and South Asian.

    The four Spanish members you mentioned have in average about 50% of Mediterranean and 2.5% of West Asian. That's interesting because Catalonia has very little J2 (2%), which would be in line with the West Asian component, except that there is about 6% of G2a. I suppose that, considering the distance from the Caucasus, Spanish G2a was heavily diluted by Mediterranean autosomes on the way through Greece and Italy. Even so, adding 5% of I2a, 6% of G2a and 3% of E1b1b only gives us 14% of Mediterranean. This means that there should be approximately 36% of "Mediterranean R1b" in Catalonia and Valencia. There is at most 6% of R1b-S28, so that still leaves us with 30% of Mediterranean R1b.

    My point here is that, whereas R1b1b2a1a is autosomally West European, older subclades are not necessarily so. Most subclades upstream of L11 probably correspond to Mediterranean autosomes. The Levantine R1b1 (P25, V88) and R1b1a (M73) might be a blend of Mediterranean, Southwest Asian and perhaps even some South Asian. That would explain how the Irish have 1.5% of Southwest Asian and 0.5% of South Asian with 0% of J1 or T. Ireland only has 2.5% of G2a+J2 but 6.5% of West Asian. Adding 2% of West Asian R1b-ht35 and 2% of Levantine R1b1* make it look more balanced.

    As for Catalonia and Valencia, they have the highest percentage of R1b ht3 in Iberia. I counted 7% of DYS393=12 for either regions. All subclades together, I wouldn't be surprised to find 15 to 20% of Near Eastern R1b.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Knovas's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-05-11
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,422
    Points
    5,511
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,511, Level: 21
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 39
    Overall activity: 66.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberian / Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    If you check K=10 run it's clear what I say. Those Iberians get higher European scores than the average Europe (Southern + Northern European), simply because they show lower West Asian and Southwest Asian admixture.

    Mediterranean refers to Southern Europe or some kind of Paleolithic European. If things are not like this, K=10 results would be impossible to get.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Knovas's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-05-11
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,422
    Points
    5,511
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,511, Level: 21
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 39
    Overall activity: 66.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberian / Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    My point here is that, whereas R1b1b2a1a is autosomally West European, older subclades are not necessarily so. Most subclades upstream of L11 probably correspond to Mediterranean autosomes. The Levantine R1b1 (P25, V88) and R1b1a (M73) might be a blend of Mediterranean and Southwest Asian.
    Agree with this.

    Also, mtDNA must have some role to play here too. Not all is focusing on Y-DNA. For the moment those Iberians don't show too much Near Eastern/Southeastern.

    I posted in other threads the Eurogenes run with the Southeastern/Anatolian cluster, and all Iberians had very low of this. ES12 (DOD725-Catalan) and ES15 (DOD375-Valencia), scored both 0%...less than any other Southern European. The estimation does not match unless you find the explanation on mtDNA.

    Here you have:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...=CIiKmgU#gid=0

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    19-04-12
    Posts
    339
    Points
    4,000
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,000, Level: 18
    Level completed: 38%, Points required for next Level: 250
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: Finland




Similar Threads

  1. New mtDNA & Y-DNA frequencies for the Basques
    By Maciamo in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 23-02-13, 11:40
  2. Updated Y-DNA frequencies for Spanish regions
    By Maciamo in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 14-08-11, 08:59
  3. Lie about mtDNA haplogroup frequencies in Spain.
    By Truthdna in forum mtDNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 13-03-10, 04:03
  4. New data on Slovak Y-haplogroup frequencies
    By Rudiger Roy in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 25-09-09, 15:41
  5. Y-haplogroup frequencies in Austria & South Germany
    By Rudiger Roy in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 18-07-09, 18:35

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •