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Thread: Lombard DNA in Italy

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    Lombard DNA in Italy



    This quote from Taranis made me think whether we may have missed something more recent in Italy's history that could account for high R1b-U152 levels. How certain are we that the Lombards were R1b-U106, HG I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    ... if you look at the distribution in France and the British Isles versus the Iberian penninsula. Why is there more U152 in Britain than in Iberia? How is this possible if it's from the Romans?

    Lombard lands c.750-785

    The Lombards could have carried more R1b-U152 than R1b-U106 if we consider for a moment their migration routes into Italy. I do not deny that there had already been a significant R1b-U152 presence in Italy before their arrival but the R1b-U152 homeland was on the Lombardic migratory route to Italy. What we find today in Northern Italy appears to correspond with a Lombard expansion with an almost bottle-neck on the Lombardy southern border where R1b-U152 frequencies are highest. This explains high R1b-U152 levels on the Sicilian north coast as it was a Lombard colony and resulted in turning Sicily into what later became an anti-papist stronghold with Swabian rulers and Lombard aristocracy.

    The Lombards migrated along the following proposed route into Italy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    There is hardly any u-152 in scania and northern Germany. Besides how long did they take to migrate
    The Lombards were part of the Suebi and towards the end of the ancient Roman empire, the Suebi and Alamanni brushed aside Roman defenses and occupied Alsace, and from there Bavaria and Switzerland. A pocket remained in Swabia in southwest Germany.

    Alsace and Southwest Germany, together with Switzerland and Bavaria all have elevated R1b-U152 when compared to the surrounding region.

    Ignore the Scandinavian origin, it is based on a legend, no historical source verifies Scania as Lombard homeland. Strabo and Tacitus mention the Lombards settled near the mouth of the Elbe suggesting a sea-faring culture near Scoringa.

    The Codex Gothanus writes the Lombards were subjected by the Saxons around 300AD, but rose up against the Saxons with their king Agelmund. In the second half of the 4th century, the Lombards left their homes and embarked on their migration. The migration is first documented as having begun at Scoringa, not Scania as indicated on the above map.



    Maybe the Roman migration of R1b-U152 is not the answer, Iberia and other Roman areas have more J and almost no R1b-U152.
    Last edited by Dorianfinder; 06-09-11 at 18:25.

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    There is hardly any u-152 in scania and northern Germany. Besides how long did they take to migrate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    There is hardly any u-152 in scania and northern Germany. Besides how long did they take to migrate
    The Lombards were part of the Suebi and towards the end of the ancient Roman empire, the Suebi and Alamanni brushed aside Roman defenses and occupied Alsace, and from there Bavaria and Switzerland. A pocket remained in Swabia in southwest Germany.

    Alsace and Southwest Germany, together with Switzerland and Bavaria all have elevated R1b-U152 when compared to the surrounding region.

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    your map only indicates the area won by victories of Liutprand over the Eastern -roman empire ( byzantium) and with these victories a setting up of duchies like spoleto and benevento etc etc.

    What dna was in ombardia from when the celts thre out the etruscans in the 5th century BC until these lombard invasions, clearly , whatever was there must still be aroud in some form

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    What dna was in Lombardia from when the celts threw out the etruscans in the 5th century BC until these lombard invasions, clearly , whatever was there must still be aroud in some form
    Etruscan DNA was mostly J2, before the Lombards northern Italy would have had a similar South Italy admixture so J2, R1b-L23-, E-V13, G and I2 with more R1b-L23+ and I2.

    The R1b-L23+ in Lombardy would not have been so heavy in R1b-U152 for several reasons. Firstly, the Gallic invasions of 390BC in addition to the Boii who made Bononia their capital, were routed out according to later Roman onslaughts.

    The R1b-U152 in Italy and the Balkans was first introduced, albeit in small quantities relative to the better established haplogroups, from 1200BC and gradually increased with migratory waves in 800BC and the 4th and 3rd century invasions from the Volcae and Boii etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Etruscan DNA was mostly J2, before the Lombards northern Italy would have had a similar South Italy admixture so J2, R1b-L23-, E-V13, G and I2 with more R1b-L23+ and I2.

    The R1b-L23+ in Lombardy would not have been so heavy in R1b-U152 for several reasons. Firstly, the Gallic invasions of 390BC in addition to the Boii who made Bononia their capital, were routed out according to later Roman onslaughts.
    Actually, I would argue that the Etruscans were mostly J1, not J2, and that J2 is pre-Etruscan. There is a peak of J1 around Tuscany, which very much matches the Etruscans. I'm not sure about J2, in my opinion J2 is older (possibly a relic of the pre-Indo-European population of Italy). I also think it's pretty clear that J2 became a typical Roman marker later on, since it's distribution in much of Europe matches the extend of the Roman Empire.

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    The Lombards who came to Italy were a small elite, perhaps a population of 110,000, compared with a italian population who which ranged between 8 and 9 million habitants .
    During the first centuries of domination, then, there was a very clear separation between the Romans and the Lombards, primarily for the different religions (Catholics and Arians) and secondly to Lombard law, even forbidding mixed marriages. Things have not changed for a long time, and the Lombards, who also had the exclusive preserve of the army, were reduced over the centuries until they disappeared almost completely. So it's difficolut to charge this population to any track genetics (at least not consistently).
    Also carry a research made by the Anthropological Society of Paris, which analyzes the contamination Germanic in Friuli, the region hardest hit by the Lombard rule.

    Les Ostrogoths et les Langobards, aggignataies d'un tiers des terres domaniales, n'avaient ni la voltè ni la possibilitè de se trasformer en colonisateurs. Ils faisainet travailler ces terres par leurs esclaves et par les paysan libres, transformeès en serfs ruraux, quand ils n'étainet pas attaches aux biens ecclesiastiques. La domination gotho-langobarde ne fut pas sans effet demographique pour la population illyrien (la popolazione nativa del Friuli viene considerata ancora Illirica), surtout dans la derniere periode, quand les Langobards tenaient de fortes garnison dans le Castrum Glemonae et dans le duchè de Forum Iulii pour la défense de la frontièere orientale dell'Austrasie langobarde. J'estime que les aborigenes (i Friulani) s'èlevaient alors a 70-80.000 individus sur un territorie d'environ 6.000 km2. A la fin du royaume langobard, le rapport, selon mon estimation, entre Frioulans et Barbares, etait 8-10 a 100, ce qui indique un taux de mélange de 6-7%- Sans doute l'hybridation a influencè les Friuulans, par exemple a l'egard de la haute stature ed du type blond de Livi.


    The Ostrogoths and Lombards, aggignataies a third of public lands, had neither the V nor the opportunity to Trasforma as colonizers. Faisainet They work the land by slaves and free peasants, serfs, transformed into rural n'étainet when not attached to the church property. Domination-Gotho Lombards was not without effect for the demographic Illyrian population (the native population of Friuli is still considerate Illiric), especially in the last period, when the Lombards held strong garrison in the Castrum Glemonae and the Duchy of Forum Iuliia to defend the eastern frontièere dell'Austrasie Lombards. I believe that the aborigines (i Friulana) 70-80000 individuals at the time was on territories of about 6,000 km2. At the end of the kingdom Lombards, the report, in my estimation, between Friulians and Barbarians, a 8-10 was 100, indicating a mixing ratio of 6-7% - no doubt influenced the hybridization Friuulans by instance with regard to the tall blond ed type of Livi.

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    The legend of the formation of Rome states that there were three groups to begin with:
    1. Etruscans [definitely not a R1b-U152 people]
    2. Latini [definitely not a R1b-U152 people]
    3. Sabines [origins also show East Med. origins]

    Some claim that the local Italian tribes took control of the Roman Empire, as improbable as it sounds, it still does not account for the levels of R1b-U152.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Actually, I would argue that the Etruscans were mostly J1, not J2, and that J2 is pre-Etruscan. There is a peak of J1 around Tuscany, which very much matches the Etruscans. I'm not sure about J2, in my opinion J2 is older (possibly a relic of the pre-Indo-European population of Italy). I also think it's pretty clear that J2 became a typical Roman marker later on, since it's distribution in much of Europe matches the extend of the Roman Empire.
    How it's possibile that the J1 is etruscan? J1 it's typical of Semitic population, like Phoenicians, Arabs and Jews. And the Etruscans were certainly not a Semitic people, may be anatolic, but not semitic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    The legend of the formation of Rome states that there were three groups to begin with:
    1. Etruscans [definitely not a R1b-U152 people]
    2. Latini [definitely not a R1b-U152 people]
    3. Sabines [origins also show East Med. origins]

    Some claim that the local Italian tribes took control of the Roman Empire, as improbable as it sounds, it still does not account for the levels of R1b-U152.
    Agree with the Etruscan, but who say to you:

    1) The Latins where not U152

    2) The Sabines come from East

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    How it's possibile that the J1 is etruscan? J1 it's typical of Semitic population, like Phoenicians, Arabs and Jews. And the Etruscans were certainly not a Semitic people.
    J1 is not exclusively Semitic, neither is it the original "Semitic" marker. As discussed in this thread, only the subclade J1c3d is actually associated with the Semitic peoples. The other subclades of J1 are quite common in the Levante, Anatolia and Caucasus.

    From that perspective, it absolutely makes sense that the Etruscans were J1.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    The Lombards who came to Italy were a small elite, perhaps a population of 110,000, compared with a italian population who which ranged between 8 and 9 million habitants
    Demographics of Italy:
    1460 - 4 500 000
    1675 - 12 500 000
    1861 - 22 200 000
    1901 - 33 000 000
    1961 - 50 000 000
    2010 - 60 500 000

    Where do you get a population of 8 million in 6th century Italy?

    The population of Italy before the Lombards was probably not more that between 400 000 and 600 000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    Agree with the Etruscan, but who say to you:

    1) The Latins where not U152

    2) The Sabines come from East
    The most likely route for the Italic migration (i.e. Latins) into Italy was from the Balkan peninsula along the Adriatic coast.[1][2]

    1. Britannica Latium
    2. Cornell (1995) 44

    The archaeological evidence shows a remarkable uniformity of culture in the peninsula during the period 1800-1200 BC - the so-called 'Appenine culture'. Pottery with much the same incised geometric designs is found throughout Italy, and the design of weapons and tools was also homogenous. During this period, it appears that Italy was a heavily wooded land with a sparse population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Demographics of Italy:
    1460 - 4 500 000
    1675 - 12 500 000
    1861 - 22 200 000
    1901 - 33 000 000
    1961 - 50 000 000
    2010 - 60 500 000

    Where do you get a population of 8 million in 6th century Italy?

    The population of Italy before the Lombards was probably not more that between 400 000 and 600 000.

    the Italian population during the Middle Ages was reduced because of famine and disease (Black Death), the 1400 whose the first time in population growth after the fall occurred after the eighth century AD. And I do not understand where you may have read that Italy had 600,000 inhabitants in the fifth century AD, if you said 2 or 3 million would have been strange but questionable, but 600,000is absurd.

    The research La composition ethnique de la population italienne (Bulletins et Memoires de la Societe d'Anthropologie de Paris, Mario Cappieri) and the classical scholar Karl Julius Belock demographics are not of this opinion, to attest to the population between 5 and 9 variables million from the fourth century to the sixth century AD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    The most likely route for the Italic migration (i.e. Latins) into Italy was from the Balkan peninsula along the Adriatic coast.[1][2]

    1. Britannica Latium
    2. Cornell (1995) 44

    The archaeological evidence shows a remarkable uniformity of culture in the peninsula during the period 1800-1200 BC - the so-called 'Appenine culture'. Pottery with much the same incised geometric designs is found throughout Italy, and the design of weapons and tools was also homogenous. During this period, it appears that Italy was a heavily wooded land with a sparse population.
    Ok, ok, i misunderstood: thought you meant that only the Sabines came from the East, where for east it intends to Greece or Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Actually, I would argue that the Etruscans were mostly J1, not J2, and that J2 is pre-Etruscan. There is a peak of J1 around Tuscany, which very much matches the Etruscans. I'm not sure about J2, in my opinion J2 is older (possibly a relic of the pre-Indo-European population of Italy). I also think it's pretty clear that J2 became a typical Roman marker later on, since it's distribution in much of Europe matches the extend of the Roman Empire.
    J2 as pre-Etruscan, I would say that pre-Etruscan is supposed to be ancestral Etruscan so we agree here. Concerning J1 I am not sure if it was a majority in any Italian population really and think the J1 distribution maps shades of green are misleading as the scale is small.

    Ancient mt-DNA studies have been confirmed by studies comparing Tuscan men to DNA sequences with those from men in modern Turkey, northern Italy, the Greek island of Lemnos, the Italian islands of Sicily and Sardinia and the southern Balkans. They found that the genetic sequences of the Tuscan men varied significantly from those of men in surrounding regions in Italy, and that the men from Murlo and Volterra were the most closely related to men from Turkey. In Murlo in particular, one genetic variant is shared only by people from Turkey. The island of Lemnos and the Turkish man from Smyrna are in J1 desert.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    J2 as pre-Etruscan, I would say that pre-Etruscan is supposed to be ancestral Etruscan so we agree here. Concerning J1 I am not sure if it was a majority in any Italian population really and think the J1 distribution maps shades of green are misleading as the scale is small.

    Ancient mt-DNA studies have been confirmed by studies comparing Tuscan men to DNA sequences with those from men in modern Turkey, northern Italy, the Greek island of Lemnos, the Italian islands of Sicily and Sardinia and the southern Balkans. They found that the genetic sequences of the Tuscan men varied significantly from those of men in surrounding regions in Italy, and that the men from Murlo and Volterra were the most closely related to men from Turkey. In Murlo in particular, one genetic variant is shared only by people from Turkey. The island of Lemnos and the Turkish man from Smyrna are in J1 desert.
    This is truth: i among others have also been in Murlo once, and it's beautiful to look at the elders of this little city and see in them the ancient Etruscans; but not all Tuscans have etruscan dna, more have romans dna becouse the roman colonization of Etruria whose really big. A strong Etruscan track in us Tuscan peoples is the language: the "Gorgias" of Tuscany, which is almost impossible for us to pronounce the "c" correctly; the Etruscans, in the Republican era, were mocked by the Romans for the same defect of language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    the Italian population during the Middle Ages was reduced because of famine and disease (Black Death), the 1400 whose the first time in population growth after the fall occurred after the eighth century AD. And I do not understand where you may have read that Italy had 600,000 inhabitants in the fifth century AD, if you said 2 or 3 million would have been strange but questionable, but 600,000is absurd.

    The research La composition ethnique de la population italienne (Bulletins et Memoires de la Societe d'Anthropologie de Paris, Mario Cappieri) and the classical scholar Karl Julius Belock demographics are not of this opinion, to attest to the population between 5 and 9 variables million from the fourth century to the sixth century AD
    Rome was increasingly decentralized and suffered an exodus from Italy that after 320 years of decline culminated in the Roman population of Rome stabilizing at no more than 50 000 from 478AD. If you use basic statistical comparisons you will see that my figures are based on reasonable estimates. We are not talking about natural disasters and disease epidemics here so you are mistaken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    This is truth: i among others have also been in Murlo once, and it's beautiful to look at the elders of this little city and see in them the ancient Etruscans; but not all Tuscans have etruscan dna, more have romans dna becouse the roman colonization of Etruria whose really big. A strong Etruscan track in us Tuscan peoples is the language: the "Gorgias" of Tuscany, which is almost impossible for us to pronounce the "c" correctly; the Etruscans, in the Republican era, were mocked by the Romans for the same defect of language.
    Ancient mt-DNA testing of the ancient Etruscan (700BC) tombs indicated similarities to the Middle East and Anatolia when compared to South Italy. This suggests South Italy's Roman population and the ancient Etruscans developed along different spheres. There must have been specific Middle Eastern and Anatolian components not prominent in South Italy, Sicily and Sardinia for them to have placed the Etruscans closer to the Near East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Rome was increasingly decentralized and suffered an exodus from Italy that after 320 years of decline culminated in the Roman population of Rome stabilizing at no more than 50 000 from 478AD. If you use basic statistical comparisons you will see that my figures are based on reasonable estimates. We are not talking about natural disasters and disease epidemics here so you are mistaken.
    It 'true that Rome have 50,000 inhabitants (for a limited time) in this age, but there is not possibile that in Italy there were only 500,000 people, the numer downside I've heard (and perhaps too precise) is 6,200,000 people after the invasion of Gothic, but this numer is considered (even) too small.

    According with the actualy common of Florence and the "Tuscany Region", only in Tuscany there were 380,000 persons in the fifth century AD, and the Lombards were settled more than 11,000

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    Where did the 40-50% R1b-U152 distributed throughout Lombardy come from?

    @ Leonardo

    Who were the ancient Italics who carried R1b-U152?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Where did the 40-50% R1b-U152 distributed throughout Lombardy come from?

    @ Leonardo

    Who were the ancient Italics who carried R1b-U152?
    The Italics were one family who spoke different dialects, and there were not big differences between them, so it is conceivable that all more or less, were carriers off U152.

    The spread of U152 in Lombardy is almost certainly to be charged as a percentage (roughly) to 30% in the presence of the Gauls, and the huge amount to 70% of settlers sent from Rome to Lombardy.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    The Italics were one family who spoke different dialects, and there were not big differences between them, so it is conceivable that all more or less, were carriers off U152.

    The spread of U152 in Lombardy is almost certainly to be charged as a percentage (roughly) to 30% in the presence of the Gauls, and the huge amount to 70% of settlers sent from Rome to Lombardy.
    Can you name the Italic tribes who you claim to have all carried R1b-U152?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Can you name the Italic tribes who you claim to have all carried R1b-U152?
    Osco-Umbrian, Picenum, Samnites (and all the tribes of the Abruzzo), Lucanians, Bruzi, Latins, Sabines (and all the Latium Italic tribes), Sicles and may be Venetics. Not everyone had the U152, but I think that a good proportion of them belong there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    J2 as pre-Etruscan, I would say that pre-Etruscan is supposed to be ancestral Etruscan so we agree here. Concerning J1 I am not sure if it was a majority in any Italian population really and think the J1 distribution maps shades of green are misleading as the scale is small.
    No. By "pre-Etruscan" I meant "arrived before the Etruscans".

    Specifically, the Etruscan language is unlikely to be originally native to Italy because of it's similarities with the Anatolian languages. Let me elaborate this: obviously Etruscan was a fundamentally non-Indo-European language, whereas the Anatolian family obviously was Indo-European, but the point is that there are some other features which suggest areal proximity towards the Anatolian languages.

    Another issue is that there is no evidence for Etruscan being spoken outside of the area of Etruscan rule, in particular not in southern Italy.

    To get back to the original thread topic:

    In addition to R1b-U106, other Y-Haplogroups in Italy of likely Lombardic (or at least otherwise Germanic) origin are I1 and I2b:

    I1
    Northern Italy - 6%
    Central Italy - 3%
    Suthern Italy - 2.5%

    I2b
    Northern Italy - 2.5%
    Central Italy - 5.0%
    Southern Italy - 2.5%

    There's also the possibility that some R1a in Italy might be Germanic, but given the distribution of R1a in Italy, it's likely most Italian R1a is either actually natively Italic (as in, from the Proto-Italic peoples, the most likely source) or Greek.
    Last edited by Taranis; 04-09-11 at 19:55.

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