Lombard DNA in Italy

[Angela]

Everytime I see this kind of threads, I love when the usual idiot came out saying that medieval migrations did not change nothing.

Then I see this graph of IBD blocks sharing between populations from Ralph Coop et al. and I laugh.

Too bad that Southerners are overepresented in that cluster from the POPRES Database. They should be only 20% of the samples, but they are about 60%.

Please be so kind as to link to a Popres Database page which gives the geographic origin in Italy of each of its samples so that the 60% figure can be verified. You and Drac have an unfortunate habit of making general statements for which detailed links to sources are in short supply.

More importantly, I am not following your logic here. Ralph and Coop described a genetic cline in Italy based on blocks shared with people from other countries. There is a decreasing cline with the French speaking Swiss as you move south in Italy. Whether there are 10 or 50 samples from southern Italy, the pattern is the same, as would be expected from population history, isolation by distance and just common sense, not to mention the dozens of PCAs which show the same cline. Do I really have to post all of them as well?

I am sorry that you're not pleased with the fact that Neapolitans don't plot anywhere near Switzerland no matter the metric used, but facts are stubborn things. Take heart, maybe you have less "northern" ancestry than you might wish, but if Ralph and Coop are correct, and there was no significant change in the Italian genome after the "Celtic" migrations of around 500 BC, then there was minimal influence from the dreaded "Roman slaves" of any ancestry, including from the direction of Turkey.

 

[giuseppe rossi]

Moorjani et al divides the Italian samples from the POPRES database between 120 Southern Italians 90 Northern Italians, so it's kinda obvious that Southerners are overepresented (they should make only 20% of total samples and not 60%).

Also I don't get this hostility towards Neapolitans from you. But since you are an American, this does not surprise me after all. Americans are famous for their ignorance and arrogance.

Now coming back to the thread,I understand that according to history,Lombards moved first in Austria and from Austria,moved to Italy.
It would be common sense,that they moved first in North East Italy.
According to the percentages of R1B-U152 ,from the Boattini et al. ,R1B-U152 can not be carried by Lombards since highest density is in NW Italy.
I think that Lombards should have brought some I1,some I2B,maybe even some R1A and other HGs that they might have picked up from Austria.
I know that there some I2A in NE Italy,that could have been also brought by Lombards and other Germanic migrators,picked up from Austria and Pannonia.
EDIT:
Here is the table with detailed results,of 884 samples of males DNA,per area:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?unique&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065441.s013
Percentages of I1 in Vicenza:
From 40 samples,we have 7 samples being I1 - 6 are I1-M253 and 1 is I1d-L22.
So a quite spectacular result,14.3% of the paternal lines in Vicenza are I1.
So I think most of these I1 could be attributed to Lombards,cause I1 is mostly of Scandinavian origins.
Another weird thing,4 samples of these 40 samples are L-M20 which I think is also brought by Germanics,who have mixed with some Asians,or Fino-Ugric people,or Turkic people.
From these 40 samples,only 4 are R1B-U152/L20.So I think is clearly out of questions that Germanics might have brought R1b-U152 to Italy.

Vicenza is kinda outlier. The frequency of I1 for Veneto is 8.5%.

By the way there is already a thread about the frequency of Germanic y dna lineages in Europe.

 

[Angela]

Moorjani et al divides the Italian samples from the POPRES database between 120 Southern Italians 90 Northern Italians, so it's kinda obvious that Southerners are overepresented (they should make only 20% of total samples and not 60%).

Also I don't get this hostility towards Neapolitans from you. But since you are an American, this does not surprise me after all. Americans are famous for their ignorance and arrogance.



Vicenza is kinda outlier. The frequency of I1 for Veneto is 8.5%.

By the way there is already a thread about the frequency of Germanic y dna lineages in Europe.

You have yet to make a logical argument for why the fact that there are more samples in the Popres data base from southern Italy than from northern Italy invalidates the claim that those southern Italian samples show less IBD sharing with the Swiss French, among other central and even northern European populations, than do northern Italians, or proof that there is not a genetic cline in Italy, with southern Italians having less of the more "northern" autosomal components.

Btw, I have no hostility toward Neapolitans or southern Italians in general. How could I? I married one, and he is the father of my children. Indeed, he's part Neapolitan, with ancestry from Benevento. Given that, would you expect any normal person to denigrate that ancestry?

What I object to and what has no place in discussions of science, history and linguistics is hate speech against other ethnicities, personal attacks against other posters, inappropriate language, and distortions of data to support an agenda, no matter the identity of the offending party. You have been guilty of all the preceding on numerous occasions, which is why you have received so many infractions. You just got another one.

You also don't get to define my identity for me, thank-you very much. My birth in Italy to Italian parents, my childhood there, and my citizenship certificate, which permits me to vote in Italian elections, not to mention my life long devotion to Italian culture suffice for me. The opinions of others are irrelevant to me in such a subjective matter.

Ed. I see I was too late on the draw.

 

[Drac II]

There is not reference to 4000 words in the PDF I've linked. You are inventing stuff again.

8% of Spanish vocubalary is made up of Arabic words.

Read the complete article again.

http://cvc.cervantes.es/ensenanza/biblioteca_ele/asele/pdf/13/13_0697.pdf

The around 4000 Arabic loanwords figure is clearly stated in your first link, and it is the most widely accepted one. So it is quite less than 8%, more like 4%, in fact it is not even 4% when you take the whole Spanish vocabulary (over 100000 words) into account. The authors of the paper in the second link apparently underestimated the total amount of Spanish words in order to have come up with the strange 8% figure.

By Swabians I meant the late Medieval Hohenstaufen dinasty who ruled Italy for about two century, not the Germanic tribe. Vandals occupied Sardinia, Corsica and parts of Sicily.

Visigoths settled in masse in France, then they slowly expanded south.

The Visigoths of France were in fact pushed out into Iberia by the Franks.

 

[Drac II]

Italy had as well the Gothic kingdom. In red.

Ostrogothic (Eastern Goths) yes, but not Visigothic (Western Goths). The Visigoths passed through Italy, but they did not permanently settle there.

 

[Drac II]

A discussion of Arabic loan words into Spanish is totally off topic. Any further such comments will be removed.

Sorry, did not see this post till now. As usual "Joey" likes to bring up things that have nothing to do with a given thread, but when he tries to manipulate things for whatever his purposes are he deserves an answer, even if off-topic.

 

[Hauteville]

Ostrogothic (Eastern Goths) yes, but not Visigothic (Western Goths). The Visigoths passed through Italy, but they did not permanently settle there.

Both are descendent from the original core and center. The Gotland.

 

[Sile]

Both are descendent from the original core and center. The Gotland.

No Goths from gotland with their Gutes language entered Italy...........all goths where from North coastal Poland and also the mix of goths and sarmatians in southern Ukraine after 200 years of living there. There where not enough gotlanders to mount any type of raid, they could barely keep the swedish geats at bay

 

[Hauteville]

Secondo le loro stesse tradizioni erano originari dell'attuale isola svedese di Gotland e la regione di G?taland.Nel 250 si divisero dai Goti e nacque appunto il regno ostrogoto. Il primo re si chiamava Ostrogota ed era della stirpe degli Amali. ^{[senza fonte]}
Nel 251 gli Ostrogoti uccisero l'imperatore Decio, pi? tardi saccheggiarono alcune isole dell'Egeo e conquistarono la Tracia e la Mesia.
La prima menzione di Ostrogoti si ha nel 269, quando l'imperatore Claudio II li riconobbe fra i barbari sciti. In quell'anno Claudio II riusc? a fermare l'avanzata degli Ostrogoti.
Nelle prime fasi della loro migrazione dalla Scandinavia, gli Ostrogoti, o goti d'Oriente fondarono un regno a nord del Mar Nero, dal III al IV secolo (Cultura di Černjachov).
Ma nel 340 ricominciarono le scorrerie e conquistarono il regno vandalo (che prima della conquista del nord Africa si trovava in Dacia) e presero questa popolosa regione. Dopo queste vittorie assoggettarono popoli slavi ed arrivarono fino al Baltico, ed alcuni storici paragonarono le loro imprese a quelle di Alessandro Magno, perch? avevano creato un regno che partiva dalla Grecia ed arrivava fino al mar Baltico.

According to their own traditions were from the current Swedish island of Gotland and the region of G?taland.

In 250 divided by the Goths and was born precisely the Ostrogothic kingdom. The first king was called Ostrogoths and was the race of the Amali. [Citation needed]


In 251 the Ostrogoths killed the emperor Decius, later plundered some Aegean islands and conquered Thrace and Moesia.


The first mention of it has Ostrogoths in 269, when Emperor Claudius II recognized them among the barbarous Scythians. In that year, Claudius II was able to stop the advance of the Ostrogoths.


In the early stages of their migration from Scandinavia, the Ostrogoths, or Goths of the East founded a kingdom in the north of the Black Sea, from the third to the fourth century (Chernyakhov culture).


But the raids began again in 340 and conquered the kingdom vandal (which before the conquest of North Africa was in Dacia) and took this populous region. After these victories subdued Slavs and came to the Baltic, and some historians likened their businesses to those of Alexander the Great, because they had created a kingdom that started from Greece and reached to the Baltic Sea.

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoti#Storia

 

[Angela]

Sorry, did not see this post till now. As usual "Joey" likes to bring up things that have nothing to do with a given thread, but when he tries to manipulate things for whatever his purposes are he deserves an answer, even if off-topic.

Please reacquaint yourself with the forum guidelines. Each time you step over the line from now on you're going to get an infraction, and that includes personal comments about other posters, no matter who they are, and it particularly includes refusing moderation and harassing moderators, whether on the Board or through PMs.

 

[Mars]

I wish this thread didn't finish in a shitstorm. Discussing northern european contribution to southern european autosomal always stirs up strange feelings and agendas in the Internet. I'd be angry at this, since as I said before, it personally interests me. Nordicism is a cancer, everyone who knows the basics of the history of civilization should be proud of having eventual southern euro roots.

 

[mihaitzateo]

I wish this thread didn't finish in a shitstorm. Discussing northern european contribution to southern european autosomal always stirs up strange feelings and agendas in the Internet. I'd be angry at this, since as I said before, it personally interests me. Nordicism is a cancer, everyone who knows the basics of the history of civilization should be proud of having eventual southern euro roots.

The thread did not ended in a shitstorm.
Knowing from where your genetics comes from is an interesting hobby.
Besides,mass-migration or settlement of certain ethnic groups to some areas maybe sometimes influenced lifestyle from there,other times did not and so on.
I do not know how Lombards changed or not Northern Italians.

 

[Angela]

I wish this thread didn't finish in a shitstorm. Discussing northern european contribution to southern european autosomal always stirs up strange feelings and agendas in the Internet. I'd be angry at this, since as I said before, it personally interests me. Nordicism is a cancer, everyone who knows the basics of the history of civilization should be proud of having eventual southern euro roots.

I've been reading about population genetics ever since the publication of the Cavalli-Sforza book, and studying ancient history, including the Indo-Europeans, since university. It was respectable then, basically a scholarly interest, although there were always a few nut jobs in the corners. The rise of racism in Europe once again, along with the advent of the internet, has created a perfect storm where fringe people and beliefs make a great deal of noise, far disproportionate to their numbers. At least that's the case here. The kinds of opinions sometimes expressed on this Board, not to mention the deranged things posted on some other sites would make you a social pariah here and probably a subject of interest to the FBI.

It can become very unpleasant. That leaves sane, normal people with an academic interest in these subjects a choice. Do you leave the discussion of these topics on internet sites solely to these kinds of people? For one thing, I don't react very well to bullying. For another, I think there's a very real danger that if this branch of science and scholarly interest gets taken over by racists funding for research at reputable universities will dry up. I hear rumblings even now.

So, I'll be happy to discuss any of these topics, including Lombard dna in Italy. There are some very well educated, well informed, interesting people on this Board from whom I learn new things every day. I'm not going to let a minority of agenda driven people spoil it for me.

 

[Dorianfinder]

I started this thread with the following quote by Taranis:

''... if you look at the distribution in France and the British Isles versus the Iberian penninsula. Why is there more U152 in Britain than in Iberia? How is this possible if it's from the Romans?''

The question I have is whether or not there may be another source for U152 besides the spread of U152 emanating from the Roman Empire.
And, following on the above quote by Taranis, if we assume that U152 in the UK is from across the strait in Wallonia, Belgium ... then where did the Walloons originally come from?

 

[mihaitzateo]

I started this thread with the following quote by Taranis:

''... if you look at the distribution in France and the British Isles versus the Iberian penninsula. Why is there more U152 in Britain than in Iberia? How is this possible if it's from the Romans?''

The question I have is whether or not there may be another source for U152 besides the spread of U152 emanating from the Roman Empire.
And, following on the above quote by Taranis, if we assume that U152 in the UK is from across the strait in Wallonia, Belgium ... then where did the Walloons originally come from?

Well in NE Italy,were Lombards came first there is about 14% I1 and under 5% R1b-U152,highest percentage of R1b-U152 is in Brescia.
So I doubt Lombards carried R1B-U152.

 

[Angela]

Well in NE Italy,were Lombards came first there is about 14% I1 and under 5% R1b-U152,highest percentage of R1b-U152 is in Brescia.
So I doubt Lombards carried R1B-U152.

Where are you getting that figure? It's much higher than that. One of the latest studies of yDna in Italy is Boattini et al, (2013 and 2014) which was discussed here at this site. Please check the figures for U-152 in Treviso, which is in the Veneto. It's closer to 30%.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28657-Breakdown-of-R1b-subclades-in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)

That doesn't mean that I necessarily think most of it came with the Lombards. I think it's very likely that it came with Italics or other "Indo-European" migrations that were earlier than the Lombards (perhaps Urnfield) and perhaps some downstream clades with the Celtici. That doesn't mean that some clades couldn't have come with the Lombards, since they traveled through U-152 territory.

 

[Dorianfinder]

Well in NE Italy,were Lombards came first there is about 14% I1 and under 5% R1b-U152,highest percentage of R1b-U152 is in Brescia.
So I doubt Lombards carried R1B-U152.

Let me approach the question differently, seeing as it is quite a sensitive issue and seems to make some individuals rather defensive.

Does the term Lombard in Italy (or similar context) refer to:
1. The Lombard peoples from Northern Europe (Germanic).
2. The people in Lombardia, Italy.
3. The people who speak/spoke the Western and/or Eastern Lombard dialect, a member of the Gallo-Italic language group.

After answering the above question, now keep in mind the following:
- Did the population movement into Lombardy occur over time or mostly at one specific period in history?
- Did the population(s) moving into Lombardy travel alone or did they bring other populations with them, and if so who?
- If we refer to Germanic-speaking Lombards, are there linguistic traces in the Lombard dialect (Italy)?

 

[Angela]

I started this thread with the following quote by Taranis:

''... if you look at the distribution in France and the British Isles versus the Iberian penninsula. Why is there more U152 in Britain than in Iberia? How is this possible if it's from the Romans?''

The question I have is whether or not there may be another source for U152 besides the spread of U152 emanating from the Roman Empire.
And, following on the above quote by Taranis, if we assume that U152 in the UK is from across the strait in Wallonia, Belgium ... then where did the Walloons originally come from?

I don't think the Walloons, per se, have anything to do with it. That's an ethno-linguistic designation that dates to a much later time. I think U-152 spread over much of France except the northwest, and as such could have formed a large part of the "continental Celts" that moved relatively late into the British Isles with the Belgae perhaps, or even earlier groups.

It's discussed here on this site:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152

Here is a map of it:

 

[Dorianfinder]

Do you think it may have been pre-Gallic U152 that crossed into Lombardy, or perhaps over time ... as would be suggested by the following wikipedia article on the Gauls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauls

That would help make possible sense of the amount of U152 in Brittain (Normans)? And unique subclade of U152 in Iberia that suggests a founder-effect of soughts..

 

[Angela]

Let me approach the question differently, seeing as it is quite a sensitive issue and seems to make some individuals rather defensive.

Does the term Lombard in Italy (or similar context) refer to:
1. The Lombard peoples from Northern Europe (Germanic).
2. The people in Lombardia, Italy.
3. The people who speak/spoke the Western and/or Eastern Lombard dialect, a member of the Gallo-Italic language group.

After answering the above question, now keep in mind the following:
- Did the population movement into Lombardy occur over time or mostly at one specific period in history?
- Did the population(s) moving into Lombardy travel alone or did they bring other populations with them, and if so who?
- If we refer to Germanic-speaking Lombards, are there linguistic traces in the Lombard dialect (Italy)?

The Germanic people who came to Italy around 560 CE are called in Italian the Langobardi. The modern day inhabitants of Lombardia, who are, of course, a mixture of various migrations, are referred to in Italian as Lombardi. Historically, the term was also used for northern Italians in general who settled parts of Sicily after the Moorish era. The confusion is only among English speakers, because they use the one term, "Lombards", for both the Germanic early Medieval migration and for modern inhabitants of the province of Lombardia.

There is no question when the Lombard invasion occurred. They settled in various areas of Europe before entering Italy. It is also clear that they carried some affiliated tribes with them. Likewise, therefore, they may have carried a number of yDna haplogroups.

The Langobard influence on the Italian language is a superstrate which didn't have much of an impact.