Bodin, you don't get it do you? You're just telling me things without sources, that map does not prove a thing, who created it and what are the "SOURCES"? Unless you have the source for the study to back you and that map up, it's simply useless, you CANNOT make up things just cause you feel like it.
Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.
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Bodin, you don't get it do you? You're just telling me things without sources, that map does not prove a thing, who created it and what are the "SOURCES"? Unless you have the source for the study to back you and that map up, it's simply useless, you CANNOT make up things just cause you feel like it.
GloomyGonzales
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Here's the link to paper discussing I haplogroup distribution in Europe.
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA.RootsiHaplogroupISpread.pdf
According this paper Tatars have only 2,4% of I-P37 (former I2a2). I think this small amount of I-P37 they got as a result of intermarriages with Russians living in the Republic of Tatarstan (Russians make about 50% of all the population in Tatarstan) .
Thanks for providing that, it looks like I2b seems to be the most common I2 clade in West Asia, which if we bring the Kurds into this, one of the Kurds I know that tested with 23andMe also carries I2b1, I have yet to come across any who tested I2a and I won't speculate that those high I* numbers are I2a unless I see proper sources.
Though to be very honest with you, I'm surprised how I2b seems more common than I2a in the Middle East, but whatever.
EDIT: Nevermind, it looks like these are new designations:
I1a = I1
I1b = I2
That makes more sense now, so I1b is I2*.
Sile
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http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...uot-are-about-to-mean-something-different...&
maybe this will help in your I
Interesting, but that's not what the link GloomyGonzales provided indicates, it's showing I1a peaking in Scandinavia (Being the I1), and I1b peaking in the Balkans (Classical I2), then again I did not look at the date (2004), in other words these were probably the older designations.
Sile
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Maybe as this link below states ( 2005 ) that dna decays the further it streches ( distance ) from east to west and less from a north to south line
http://remed.charite.de/fileadmin/user_upload/microsites/m_cc05/remed/Downloads/Roewer 2005.pdf
GloomyGonzales
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Here's a part from another one interesting Balanovsky's research:
UPDATE III (No European influence):
Another interesting discovery of this study is the lack of European influence in the populations of the North Caucasus.
It seems that both R1a1a-M198 and I2a-P37 have a major barrier eastward in the Don river. Please note that the former is not strictly a European haplogroup, but it nonetheless experiences a massive drop in frequency, and is negligible everywhere except in Abkhaz-Circassians (NW Caucasus; 10.3-19.7%), with an outlier in Dargins (22%).
This seems to put a limit on the origin of any hypothetical movements across the Eurasian steppe east of the Don river, as haplogroup I2a-P37 is largely absent in Central Asia, and occurs 3 times in 1,525 individuals in this sample. So, while there have been proposals of a Central European origin of some steppe pastoralist groups, these are hard to reconcile with this picture.
Link: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html
UPDATE III (No European influence):
Another interesting discovery of this study is the lack of European influence in the populations of the North Caucasus.
It seems that both R1a1a-M198 and I2a-P37 have a major barrier eastward in the Don river. Please note that the former is not strictly a European haplogroup, but it nonetheless experiences a massive drop in frequency, and is negligible everywhere except in Abkhaz-Circassians (NW Caucasus; 10.3-19.7%), with an outlier in Dargins (22%).
This seems to put a limit on the origin of any hypothetical movements across the Eurasian steppe east of the Don river, as haplogroup I2a-P37 is largely absent in Central Asia, and occurs 3 times in 1,525 individuals in this sample. So, while there have been proposals of a Central European origin of some steppe pastoralist groups, these are hard to reconcile with this picture.
Link: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html
Asturrulumbo
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Here's a part from another one interesting Balanovsky's research:
UPDATE III (No European influence):
Another interesting discovery of this study is the lack of European influence in the populations of the North Caucasus.
It seems that both R1a1a-M198 and I2a-P37 have a major barrier eastward in the Don river. Please note that the former is not strictly a European haplogroup, but it nonetheless experiences a massive drop in frequency, and is negligible everywhere except in Abkhaz-Circassians (NW Caucasus; 10.3-19.7%), with an outlier in Dargins (22%).
This seems to put a limit on the origin of any hypothetical movements across the Eurasian steppe east of the Don river, as haplogroup I2a-P37 is largely absent in Central Asia, and occurs 3 times in 1,525 individuals in this sample. So, while there have been proposals of a Central European origin of some steppe pastoralist groups, these are hard to reconcile with this picture.
Link: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html
That's another reason I believe there have been no Indo-European (or at least Iranian) migrations across the Caucasus...
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Maciamo made it on this forum , now please explain how could it be any other than I2a2-Din- give your reasons why would you believe it could be I2c or I2b?
Why do you question it is I2a2-Din , I dont see any other posibility , please show me where is my mistake if you know .
Thanks for answering
Kardu
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Yes, you are right I am I2c now
As for the back migration indeed it has to be from Balkans via Anatolia. Their coming to Georgia can be associated with Meskhi/Moskhi expansion which took place 2800 years ago. Interestingly enough the other I2c Georgian, who by the way really belongs to an old princely family, comes originally from Meskheti region of Georgia. And hometown of my ancestors is very close to old Meskhi capital city of Mtskheta.
P.S. I am also a descendant from an old noble family so maybe there is some truth in I2c and nobility connection after all
Bodin
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That paper shows for Tatars 1,6% of I M170 ( undetermined I ) , 0,8% of I M253 (I1 - Germanic ) , and 2,4% of I P37( I2a1b -Dinaric ) , all together 4,8% of I , and paper that I posted 16% of " Balkanic " I . That is probably because your paper speack about all Tatars , and mine only about Kazan Tatars .
What is more important there is NO I M223 - I2b amongst Tatars
Kardu
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According to just published Yunusbayev et al. paper there is some I2a among Andis, Lezgins, Kara Nogays, Abazins, Adyghe, Balkars, Abnhazians, Kabardins, Karachays, Georgians and Ossetians. This might indicate Sarmatian origins.
Bodin
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Yes I1a in this paper is nowadays I1 , and I1b* is nowadays I2a1b ( former I2a2 Din ) , look at designations M253 and P37
Kardu
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Our data on a STR/SNP maximum likelihood tree generated bu Marko Heinila's calculator. Note there are many Europeans there.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Bodin
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Is there any I2c on Balkans ? I hasnt hierd for that untill now , and i would like to know . My familly also use to had nobility status, there are even legends that we are descendants of kingsYes, you are right I am I2c now
As for the back migration indeed it has to be from Balkans via Anatolia. Their coming to Georgia can be associated with Meskhi/Moskhi expansion which took place 2800 years ago. Interestingly enough the other I2c Georgian, who by the way really belongs to an old princely family, comes originally from Meskheti region of Georgia. And hometown of my ancestors is very close to old Meskhi capital city of Mtskheta.
P.S. I am also a descendant from an old noble family so maybe there is some truth in I2c and nobility connection after all
Bodin
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Tread speack only about J and G haplogrououp , and where did you found that maps? There has to be significant R1a1a M198 and some I P37 because of simple facts - there are also RussiansHere's a part from another one interesting Balanovsky's research:
UPDATE III (No European influence):
Another interesting discovery of this study is the lack of European influence in the populations of the North Caucasus.
It seems that both R1a1a-M198 and I2a-P37 have a major barrier eastward in the Don river. Please note that the former is not strictly a European haplogroup, but it nonetheless experiences a massive drop in frequency, and is negligible everywhere except in Abkhaz-Circassians (NW Caucasus; 10.3-19.7%), with an outlier in Dargins (22%).
This seems to put a limit on the origin of any hypothetical movements across the Eurasian steppe east of the Don river, as haplogroup I2a-P37 is largely absent in Central Asia, and occurs 3 times in 1,525 individuals in this sample. So, while there have been proposals of a Central European origin of some steppe pastoralist groups, these are hard to reconcile with this picture.
Link: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html
Kardu
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There are at least 2 Bulgarians on that tree. Of course it's not many.
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Thanks for sharing that knowledge , so we could asume that I2c lived on Balkans since Paleolithe , and we should ask Paleolithic I1a1b-Din somewhere else . Thanks for answering
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If there is I2c in the Balkans, it is exceedingly rare. The FTDNA Project has members (all in the same young B cluster as the Armenians and Georgians) from Ukraine, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Russia, Poland, Belarus... so it may be more accurate to say Carpathian or broadly East European than Balkan.
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I2c as a Balkans refuge subclade is possible but unlikely IMHO, since its older clusters are very Western and its most closely related subclade, I2b-ADR, is Central. Though, there's been enough bottlenecking that we can't really extrapolate back to the Paleolithic easily.
Nordtvedt guesses a Mediterranean route with a Western or Central MRCA location for I2c and a Northeastern European (somewhere around Belarus) MRCA location for I2a-Din, see here. That is based strictly on SNP hierarchy and STR diversity so it's unbiased-ish.
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