Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

Ture, and I do agree with.

But my point is that the DNA of Ossetians IS actually Iranic and not they're not only Iranic by their language. Also, there's a genetic link between all West Iranic speakers in West Asia. So this means that West Iranic folks were and still are the same separated group, like 2500-5000 years ago. And that they're actually still connected to the ancient Iranic (Aryan) folks in the past, like the Alanians, Medes and Persians. They still carry their genes...

But see this is where my problem is, we don't know whether the Ossetians are connected autosomally to the other West Iranian groups like Persians or Kurds because we don't have the sample on them, the studies available only indicate Y-DNA/mtDNA comparison.

The only data available autosomally is on Iranians (Persians, Azeri, Luri, etc) and Kurds, and they are indeed closest to one another, I'll see if I can find anything on the Ossetians online.
 
You are twisting things up a little bit. Dienekes samples are mainly limited to Iraqi Kurds and some 23andme samples which again are mainly from Iraq and Iran.

Dienekes' sample contains whoever tested with 23andMe, among those Kurds there's a sample from Turkey, and his result was actually not very different from the other Kurds from Iraq and Iran which indicates the same Kurdish ancestry, btw, there's another Kurdish waiting for his result and he's also from Turkey I think (Zazaki Kurd from what I recall).

Your statement ist wrong. Kurds and Iranians are not the same, they only share a similar structure based on their part Iranic heritage but their is still a considerable difference. I will take Dienekes Iraqi Kurdish samples as example. The similarities are between both Iraqi Kurds and Iranians higher South(central) Asian as well North European in compare tol Assyrians. The difference between however between Iraqi Kurds and Iranians is more Mediterranean among in the I. Kurds than Iranians, a bit less West Asian but at the same time a bit more East/West European than Iranians. This are indeed as much differences as there are similarities.

Read what I wrote again, I never said the Iranians and Kurds were the same, I said the closest population to the Kurds were the Iranians, that does not mean they're the same.
 
But see this is where my problem is, we don't know whether the Ossetians are connected autosomally to the other West Iranian groups like Persians or Kurds because we don't have the sample on them, the studies available only indicate Y-DNA/mtDNA comparison.
No, once again. Their mtDNA is closer to their West Iranic big brothers Kurds. Read the underlined phrases in red from this study:

"Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously.
In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf
 
No, once again. Their mtDNA is closer to their West Iranic big brothers Kurds. Read the underlined phrases in red from this study:

"Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously.
In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

Goga, we already had gone through this already, Y-DNA/mtDNA does not tell the whole story, you can only compare closeness of populations by autosomal DNA, read this:

http://www.dnainheritance.kahikatea.net/autosomal.html
 
Dienekes' sample contains whoever tested with 23andMe, among those Kurds there's a sample from Turkey, and his result was actually not very different from the other Kurds from Iraq and Iran which indicates the same Kurdish ancestry, btw, there's another Kurdish waiting for his result and he's also from Turkey I think (Zazaki Kurd from what I recall).

You are again twisting things up a bit even though this time I know you know better. You know as much as me that this actual Kurd from Turkey has his origin in North West Iran and this very well transmited orally. The same goes for the other guy who is testing and who isnt a Zaza Kurd at all. Remember what I said the demographics among Kurds are very different from that what people thing and red here on the net. Someone isnt a Zaza just because he is from Dersim. 30% of Dersim is Kurmanji speaking. This is almost every third person. And he also has oral stories being from Iran. Many Alevi Kurds have Oral stories about coming from Northwest Iran. This is not the case with Sunni Kurds and the majority of Anatolian Kurds are sunni.



Read what I wrote again, I never said the Iranians and Kurds were the same, I said the closest population to the Kurds were the Iranians, that does not mean they're the same.

ok sorry my fault. However your right that Kurds share more similarities with Iranians as Assyrians or Armenians do.
 
Goga, your posts are beside the point, since you don't seem to understand what autosomal DNA is. Look it up and think again. Just friendly advice (=:)))
 
Even though I know that South Ossetians expected a lot more involvement, Russia actually stalemated this as you call it Georgia-South Ossetia dispute or as would I call it Georgia/America vs South Ossetia/Russia.
Some Ossetians are just a bunch of morons. Actually there're better of with Georgia, than with Russia. I mean South Ossetians had more rights as an separated ethnic group in Georgia than North Ossetians in Russia!
 
Goga, your posts are beside the point, since you don't seem to understand what autosomal DNA is. Look it up and think again. Just friendly advice (=:)))
autosomal DNA is an admixture of both; Y-DNA & mtDNA!

But it doesn't matter, since Georgians, Ossetians and Kurds are very close to each other on the autosomal admixture maps. All scientists cluster them together. They do all belong to the West Asian group!

I believe that the proto-Iranic language is evolved somewhere in the Caucasus. Because (Indo-European/Iranic) Kurdish language and Caucasian languages are very closer to each other.

Both groups have the ergativity construction for example...
 
autosomal DNA is an admixture of both; Y-DNA & mtDNA!

But it doesn't matter, since Georgians, Ossetians and Kurds are very close to each other on the autosomal admixture maps. All scientists cluster them together. They do all belong to the West Asian group!

I believe that the proto-Iranic language is evolved somewhere in the Caucasus. Because (Indo-European/Iranic) Kurdish language and Caucasian languages are very closer to each other.

Both groups have the ergativity construction for example...

Take the advice and learn what Autosomal DNA is, it's not Y-DNA/mtDNA, it's 96% of your human DNA which has nothing to do with your Y-DNA/mtDNA.

EDIT: This should help:

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/auto_dna.html
 
Take the advice and learn what Autosomal DNA is, it's not Y-DNA/mtDNA, it's 96% of your human DNA which has nothing to do with your Y-DNA/mtDNA.

EDIT: This should help:

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/auto_dna.html
This is what I'm telling you all the time!

Some people look at the Ossetian Y-DNA and say, well it has very much G2 and little R1a so they must be Caucasian. But that's just wrong.
We're speaking about their whole DNA, and it says that the Ossetians are of the Iranic stock and that their DNA is closer to other West Iranic peoples than to their neighbouring Caucasians.
But in turn all West Iranic folks and Caucasians are also very close to each other. We are speaking about 2 West Asian groups (Caucasians & West Iranics) which are very close to each other!

What don't you understand here?

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf
 
"Genetic evidence shows that they share maternal ancestry with other Iranian peoples but have paternal ancestry in common with their non-Iranian neighbors. The North Ossetians have paternal relationships with North Caucasian peoples while South Ossetians have them with South Caucasian peoples.

Overall, Ossetians are more distant from the other Indo-European-speaking populations from the Caucasus (Armenians) than from Caucasian-speaking populations.
However, Ossetians are significantly closer to Iranian-speaking populations from Isfahan and Tehran than to Caucasian speaking populations. The same trend holds when we compare haplotype sharing between Ossetian and Iranian populations versus Ossetians and their closest geographic neighbors from the Caucasus."

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/ossetians.html
 
"Modern genetic science's disclosure of the geographical distribution of historical genetic markers has convinced certain theorists of the connection between Sarmato-Alanic deep ancestral heritage in Europe and the Y-DNA paternal Haplogroup G (Y-DNA), specifically G2[2]."

http://ossetians.com/eng/news.php?newsid=371&f=3
 
This is what I'm telling you all the time!

Some people look at the Ossetian Y-DNA and say, well it has very much G2 and little R1a so they must be Caucasian. But that's just wrong.
We're speaking about their whole DNA, and it says that the Ossetians are of the Iranic stock and that their DNA is closer to other West Iranic peoples than to their neighbouring Caucasians.
But in turn all West Iranic folks and Caucasians are also very close to each other. We are speaking about 2 West Asian groups (Caucasians & West Iranics) which are very close to each other!

What don't you understand here?

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

Goga, that study does not show any Autosomal DNA testing, I've been trying to tell you that there's no Ossetian sample to compare with in terms of Autosomal DNA, the study provided only shows the Y-DNA/mtDNA which is a tiny part of your DNA, I still think you're confused about this.

The study says this:

Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups.
This is only mtDNA, which has nothing to do with Autosomal DNA (96% of your human DNA), watch the videos I posted, they'll help you understand what I'm trying to tell you:

Autosomal DNA
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/auto_dna.html

Y-DNA

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/y_chromo.html

mtDNA
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/mito_dna.html

X-Chromosome

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/x_chromo.html

Autosomal DNA determines which population is closest to each other, and since there's no Ossetian Autosomal DNA sample available, we can't determine how close they are to other Iranian populations, remember, they live in the Caucasus and do carry Caucasian paternal lineages too, so if I was a betting man I'd say they would be closest to other Caucasian groups in terms of Autosomal DNA since they live in the same area and probably have mixed for a while, but once again we have no evidence for that, so until some are tested, we don't know for sure.

"Modern genetic science's disclosure of the geographical distribution of historical genetic markers has convinced certain theorists of the connection between Sarmato-Alanic deep ancestral heritage in Europe and the Y-DNA paternal Haplogroup G (Y-DNA), specifically G2[2]."

http://ossetians.com/eng/news.php?newsid=371&f=3

I fail to see how one would make a connection between ancient groups and modern groups without ancient DNA study, as far as I know, there's no ancient DNA found among the Sarmatians/Alans, and whatever ancient DNA that is found in the steppe area, none of it was haplogroup G.
 
But mtDNA is a good indication of who you was before mixing. Humans paternal line changes much faster than humans maternal line.
Also, study on deep ancestral supports the Iranic origin of the modern Ossetians!

They speak an Iranic langauge, they're very cvlose to other West Iranic folks etc. They ARE Iranic/Aryan. What don't you understand here?

Your denial of West Iranic (Aryan) heritage in Kurds jumped to the denial of other Iranic folks in West Asia, LOL!

I give you even concrete examples, what do you need more???

Read this:

"Genetic evidence shows that they share maternal ancestry with other Iranian peoples but have paternal ancestry in common with their non-Iranian neighbors. The North Ossetians have paternal relationships with North Caucasian peoples while South Ossetians have them with South Caucasian peoples.

Overall, Ossetians are more distant from the other Indo-European-speaking populations from the Caucasus (Armenians) than from Caucasian-speaking populations.
However, Ossetians are significantly closer to Iranian-speaking populations from Isfahan and Tehran than to Caucasian speaking populations. The same trend holds when we compare haplotype sharing between Ossetian and Iranian populations versus Ossetians and their closest geographic neighbors from the Caucasus."

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/ossetians.html
 
But mtDNA is a good indication of who you was before mixing. Humans paternal line changes much faster than humans maternal line.

Also, study on deep ancestral supports the Iranic origin of the modern Ossetians!

A simple question for you, you have an Iranian tribe, a bunch of men from a Caucasian tribe come by, kill off the Iranian men and take their Iranian women back to their lands, eventually they start having babies with them, what do you call the off-spring? Surely, you have to be fair and say 50/50, or else you'll look like a hypocrite with an agenda.

Besides, the study mentions that they're similar maternally to other Iranian populations as in, they carry similar maternal lineages, but keep in mind that there's no such thing as Iranian mtDNA, these lineages are very old and have existed thousands of years ago before civilizations, meaning that many different groups carry them, so just because someone happens to carry a similar lineage that is found among Iranians, it does not mean they're Iranian, a good example of this is haplogroup R2a, 90% of these people live in India, but just because someone carries this lineage, it does not mean they're Indian.

They speak an Iranic langauge, they're very cvlose to other West Iranic folks etc. They ARE Iranic/Aryan. What don't you understand here?

Your denial of West Iranic (Aryan) heritage in Kurds jumped to the denial of other Iranic folks in West Asia, LOL!

I give you even concrete examples, what do you need more???

Read this:
First of all, I never denied Kurds, Persians, Ossetians, or any other group that speaks an Indo-Iranian language from being Aryan, you're simply just stirring up the pot again, if I said that, point it out for me.

The other thing is, I'm talking about genetics here, this has nothing to do with Aryans because being an Aryan is a cultural thing, is there some genetic connection? A very small one, on top of that the North Indians, Pashtuns, Kalash, Nuristani, etc are also Aryans, yet for whatever reason you don't mix them into the discussion.

You talk about language? The Ossetians speak an Eastern Iranian language, this specific language falls under the same tree as Yaghnobi, Pashtun, and Pamiri languages, so once again, you have to expand your mind and look at the bigger picture here.
 
A simple question for you, you have an Iranian tribe, a bunch of men from a Caucasian tribe come by, kill off the Iranian men and take their Iranian women back to their lands, eventually they start having babies with them, what do you call the off-spring? Surely, you have to be fair and say 50/50, or else you'll look like a hypocrite with an agenda.

The other thing is, I'm talking about genetics here, this has nothing to do with Aryans because being an Aryan is a cultural thing, is there some genetic connection? A very small one, on top of that the North Indians, Pashtuns, Kalash, Nuristani, etc are also Aryans, yet for whatever reason you don't mix them into the discussion.
I don't have any agenda.

And you're a hypocrite here. The first thing what you did was to put the Kurdish I2a in doubt in front of all people. Than you said that Kurds are not related to other folks in the Balkans with high I2a. That I2a in Kurds say nothing about their heritage.
And now you're advocating the opposite thing with the Ossetians?

Sure, North Indians, Pashtuns, Kalash, Nuristani, etc are all Indo-Iranic speakers too. And I'm proud that my ancestors influenced that part of the world too. Those folks are the living evidence of how great my ancestors were! What did your ancestors?
But are you saying here that Kurds are not closer to the Ossetians than to Central Asians?

My mind is like a X-ray. I can detect anybody’s agenda!
 
I don't have any agenda.

By the looks of it, you do.

And you're a hypocrite here. The first thing what you did was to put the Kurdish I2a in doubt in front of all people. Than you said that Kurds are not related to other folks in the Balkans with high I2a. That I2a in Kurds say nothing about their heritage.
And now you're advocating the opposite thing on the Ossetians?
I did not put any doubt, I said that there not a single study that shows Kurdish I2a, all studies show I*, is it I2a? Perhaps, but it could also be a mixture of I2a, I2b, I2c, and I1, why the need to dismiss the other lineages? Do you have proof? If so, provide it, other than that, stop making stupid accusations and go back read what I wrote, I simply said we don't know what kind of I* was carried, which is the honest truth.

Sure, North Indians, Pashtuns, Kalash, Nuristani, etc are all Indo-Iranic speakers too. And I'm proud that my ancestors influenced that part of the world too. Those folks are the living evidence of how great my ancestors were!
But are you saying here that Kurds are not closer to the Ossetians than to Central Asians?
So now those folks are Aryans because of an influence? Go tell that to Brahmin Indians, see how they'll rip you apart, culturally they're just as Aryan, what makes you think they were influenced? Maybe your ancestors were influenced by Aryans? See what I mean? Pure hypocrisy, either you're all proper Aryans, or not, don't pick and choose based on your agenda.

My mind is like a X-ray. I can detect anybody’s agenda!
Your mind can't even tell the difference between Autosomal DNA and Y-DNA/mtDNA, let alone calling it an X-ray that detects agenda? :LOL:
 

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