Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

...the Scythians I'm talking about were already in the Middle East 700 BCE!!! Or 600 years before this map. Maybe even before that.

Scythians I'm talking about lived together with the Medes. Parthians came much later and were Central Asian Iranic folks (maybe backmigration).

Well, while the question of the origin and ethnogenesis of the Scythians is very much unsettled, the most widely accepted theory that their "urheimat" is around the land between the Caspian Sea and the Amu Darya. The East Iranian (ie Avestan, Scithian Pamir) homeland is probably also around there, possibly identifiable with the Yaz culture of the early Iron Age (1500-1100 BC):
"...With respect to location, date and a settlement type which
may represent early Iron Age farmer-chieftains, the Yaz culture
has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of east
Iranian society as depicted in the Avesta."
-EIEC
(I attached a picture of the location of the Yaz CUlture)
So, going back to your initial comment, it seems doubtful that the Scythians were North Caucasian folk, not in 100 BC, not in 700 BC, not in 1300 BC... I find it more probable that the Ossetes were "scythianized" North Caucasians
 

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Well, while the question of the origin and ethnogenesis of the Scythians is very much unsettled, the most widely accepted theory that their "urheimat" is around the land between the Caspian Sea and the Amu Darya. The East Iranian (ie Avestan, Scithian Pamir) homeland is probably also around there, possibly identifiable with the Yaz culture of the early Iron Age (1500-1100 BC):
"...With respect to location, date and a settlement type which
may represent early Iron Age farmer-chieftains, the Yaz culture
has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of east
Iranian society as depicted in the Avesta."
-EIEC
(I attached a picture of the location of the Yaz CUlture)
So, going back to your initial comment, it seems doubtful that the Scythians were North Caucasian folk, not in 100 BC, not in 700 BC, not in 1300 BC... I find it more probable that the Ossetes were "scythianized" North Caucasians
Listen, thank you for your opinion and you have got a very interesting view of point.

But the thing is that these Iranic people must be from somewhere. I don't think proto-Iranic or even proto-IE speakers were from Central Asia. And there is VERY MUCH West Asian DNA in Central Asia! Like hg. J2 of Y-DNA...
 
Listen, thank you for your opinion and you have got a very interesting view of point.

But the thing is that these Iranic people must be from somewhere. I don't think proto-Iranic or even proto-IE speakers were from Central Asia. And there is VERY MUCH West Asian DNA in Central Asia! Like hg. J2 of Y-DNA...

As I have said, my knowledge of DNA is very limited (at least in most cases), so in this occasion I can only contribute the discussion on the cultural sphere (which usually overlaps with the genealogical sphere...but only to a certain extent). And thus I think my humble contribution to this thread is complete... Unless you want my opinion on the ethno-cultural relations between the Medians and the Scithians/Sarmatians.
 
Unless you want my opinion on the ethno-cultural relations between the Medians and the Scithians/Sarmatians
Please. I'm very much interested in your knowledge!

What I do is just brainstorming and question everything. I do know nothing. I'm just a pilgrim lost in history who is in search for the true and what happened in the past. Every contribution and view of point from all over the world is a profit for the human race.
If you want to know the world better you must include opinions of folks from all over the world. The better way to find the true is to approach it from as many perceptions as possible!

So be kind and write everything what you know about the Scythians, Medes, East Europeans and other people…
 
But wait! Now I remember a study, an aDNA study of the Bronze Age Andronovo Culture of Central Asia and Southern Siberia (whose bearers were probably, in the early stages of the culture, Proto-Indo-Iranian)... In which "nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17 which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans." It's called "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people".
 
Please. I'm very much interested in your knowledge!
Alright then..
Among linguists, Iranian languages are split into two main branches: the Western branch (Kurdish, Median, Parthian, Persian, etc.) and the Eastern branch (Bactrian, Scythio-Sarmatian, Pamiris, Pashto, etc.). Now then, Iranian Langs. as a whole are usually thought to have their origin in the Eurasian Steppe. I personally would point especially to the Fedorovo culture, a culture around Southern Siberia (c. 1500-1300 BCE). This culture lies within the broader Andronovo Horizon (c. 2300-800 BCE), from which also the Indo-Aryans probably were, albeit at a much earlier date. The Andronovo Horizon slowly spread to the south and west (see map).
Now then, from there, the East Iranians (such as Scythians) can probably be associated with the later phases of the Andronovo culture, as well as its western neighbour the Srubna Culture (c. 1700-1100 BCE) (see map).
The West Iranians (such as the Medes) can probably be associated with the West Iranian Buff Ware (which appeared around 1100 BCE in the southwest Caspian coast, and then expanded towards the Zagros regions).
So this is what I think, from what I have read.
 

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[FONT=&quot]Sarmatians came from South Ural and they were Iranic-speaking people. Does it look like some I2a2-Din people from Balkans? Surely not. It's obvious that Sarmatians were predominantly R1a people. [/FONT]
Where did you find Sarmathians come from south Ural ? They came from Media as I explained and that is reason they speacked Iranian - like Medians, Scythians and Persians . If they camed from south Ural they would speack Uralic languague and have N1c predominant haplogroup . Where is your prove that Sarmathians were R1a , Scythians were R1a but not Sarmathians.
 
Maybe 'Amazones' were just wild/barbaric people without any respect for rules.

Also, I read nowhere that the Medes came from north (Eastern Europe) and entered West Asia. Most historians do agree on that the Medes were native to West Asia or they came from Central Asia. But I do believe they were West Asian and just a continuation of Mitanni/Kassites. I've my own reasons for that.

Some people link Kassites to Scythians.

I do also believe that the very first original Medes were J2, R1a & R2a people. But later they mixed with I2a-something people who lived already in Kurdistan folks like Guti or came later like the Hittites or even the hypothetical so called 'Cimmerians'.

Also Scythians came NOT from the Baltics! Maybe they were there, but the Baltics was not their native homeland.
I also believe Medes are native to west Asia or somwhere betwen it and Central Asia , but I believe they were carryers of I2a2-Din that took refuge there during LGM . R1a was bringed by IE speackers together with languague - like Scythians and Persians . J2 is comed in Asia Minor and Caucasus during Neolithe from fertile crescent .
You didnt understand me I didnt said Scythians comed FROM Baltic , I said they settled there later . So the Sarmathians are, in antiquity ( Tacitus ,... ) Baltic sea was called oceanus Saramathicus - Sarmathian Ocean .
 
Where did you find Sarmathians come from south Ural ? They came from Media as I explained and that is reason they speacked Iranian - like Medians, Scythians and Persians .

Wikipedia
The Sarmatians emerged in the 7th century BC in a region of the steppe to the east of the Don River and south of the Ural Mountains.

Prokhorovka kurgans associated with early Sarmatians are located in the Urals area in Russia.

If they camed from south Ural they would speack Uralic language and have N1c predominant haplogroup . Where is your prove that Sarmathians were R1a , Scythians were R1a but not Sarmathians.

Maybe it would be a great opening for you but Sintashta-Petrovka-Arkaim culture is located in South Ural and nevertheless associated with R1a Arian people.

By the way where did you get this weird idea that Sarmatians came from Media? The Sarmatian language is classified as Northeastern Iranian while the Median is Northwestern Iranian.
 
Read Diodorus he say that Scythians during they rule in Asia ( 650-624) taken parts of Medes north of Caucasus , and they are now Sarmathians- Solar Medes , like I already said up .That is egzactly VII century as Wikipedia says.
Prokhorovka culture graves are from IV - II century BC , and that is after Sarmathians setled from Asia .
Yes Andronovo or Petrovka culture was R1a but it was mostly west Siberia , and partualy south Ural , but it was 2.500-1000 years BC , and it was probably were Scythians come from .

About languagues : Sarmathian was under influence of Scythian , and there is to litlle of it preserved to say was it closer to Scythian or Median .
About West Balkans archeological findings show Slavic presence only from VI to VII century , while findings since VII century ( arriving Serbs and Croats ) are much more simillar to Sarmathian findings in Moldova ( Ants ) and Banat ( Yazigi) .And I2a2- Din is to young to be on Balkans since Paleolithe ( even Neolithe) , same as R1b is to young to be in West Europe since Neolithe.
 
[FONT=&quot]
Read Diodorus he say that Scythians during they rule in Asia ( 650-624) taken parts of Medes north of Caucasus , and they are now Sarmathians- Solar Medes , like I already said up .That is egzactly VII century as Wikipedia says.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Why should I believe in words of some Greek myth-writer? It's not serious. It's obvious that I2a2-Din people had nothing to do with Sarmatians even the idea itself that I2a2-Din people could be Northeastern Iranian speaking nomadic horse riders living in wagons and came from steppes to the East of the Don River looks incredibly weird. [/FONT]
 
Why should I believe in words of some Greek myth-writer? It's not serious. It's obvious that I2a2-Din people had nothing to do with Sarmatians even the idea itself that I2a2-Din people could be Northeastern Iranian speaking nomadic horse riders living in wagons and came from steppes to the East of the Don River looks incredibly weird.

I think that I2a-Din is less mysterious than most make it out to be. It seems clearly to be an example of a haplogroup that expanded recently and quickly within a population that picked it up while it was expanding itself. I'm not sure whether that's the Illyrians or the Slavs or somebody else, but I lean toward the Slavs based on current evidence. A connection with the Sarmatians is tenuous, mainly because there's no evidence that Haplogroup I spread to Asia at all until very recently. A remaining question is the Haplogroup I in Kurds, which we know too little about to contribute usefully to this discussion.
 
As for haplogroup J2 in modern Bulgaria it might be attributed to the Colchian (Caucasian) presence in Balkans according to Pliny the Elder.
penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny3.html
 
[FONT=&quot]Why should I believe in words of some Greek myth-writer? It's not serious. It's obvious that I2a2-Din people had nothing to do with Sarmatians even the idea itself that I2a2-Din people could be Northeastern Iranian speaking nomadic horse riders living in wagons and came from steppes to the East of the Don River looks incredibly weird. [/FONT]
OK you obviosly dont know what are you talking about - you just called father of critical history a "Greek myth writer ". Have you even read Diodorus ?
And what is your idea , who was the I2a2-Din original bearers ?
 
And no I2a2 is not Slavic because Slavs are mainly R1a -Scythian descendants , as I previosly explained all of I2a2 may be conected with Sarmathian movements , and please dont quote Kievan chronicles, because they are counterfited which is proven by science
 
First of all, Diodorus was certainly not a myth writer. Having said that, I don't think at all that the Sarmatians come from the Medes. If linguistic evidence isn't enough, then archaeological evidence should be: It seems reasonably clear to me that their origins lie along with that of the Scythians, and there is no archaeological evidence of a crossing from Persia to the steppe at that time, nor would the Sarmatians' inherently nomadic traditions point that they came from a highly urbanized region such as Persia. Also, one should not rule out that the Sarmatians were merely a mixing of the indigenous Cimmerians with invading Scythian tribes...
 
Medes in VII century , and also the Persians were prety much nomadic , some of Persian tribes are nomadic even during wars with Greeks - Germaniji from Kerman province. There is clear arheological evidence that show diferences betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - Sarmathian armor is same thing that Greeks call Medean suit - armor made of plates , only Medeans caried Persian robes over it.
 
And Cymerrians lived north of Black sea - where the Scythians lived later , and Sarmathians were north of Caucasus .
 
Medes in VII century , and also the Persians were prety much nomadic , some of Persian tribes are nomadic even during wars with Greeks - Germaniji from Kerman province. There is clear arheological evidence that show diferences betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - Sarmathian armor is same thing that Greeks call Medean suit - armor made of plates , only Medeans caried Persian robes over it.
Which haplogroups did have the Medes according to you?
 
But wait! Now I remember a study, an aDNA study of the Bronze Age Andronovo Culture of Central Asia and Southern Siberia (whose bearers were probably, in the early stages of the culture, Proto-Indo-Iranian)... In which "nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17 which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans." It's called "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people".
"the eastward migration". Exactly this is what I'm talking about. These Andronovo Culture folks came from somewhere else. Many people thought that they came from Europe (because of the Kurgans and steppes), but in Central Asia (around the Andronovo Horizon) is more West Asian DNA, than the North European DNA.
Also ANI (Ancestral North Indian) is closer to West Asia than to North Europe.

Some Iranic folks from Central Asia migrated back into West Asia. The Parthians (and maybe the Medes like some people say) are a very good example of it. But personally I do really think that the Medes just stayed behind in West Asia (Zagros mountains / the Iranian plateau) when their kinsmen migrated into Central Asia and formed the Andronovo and other related cultures.
 

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