Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

I2a2-Din about 70%? Why so small?
Because it is 71% in Herzegovina , and that is place where Sarmathians settled on almoust empty land - Avars took and burned Voiki and 50 other cities ,they made new Avaric tribe in Panonia of captured peoples . Than Sarmathians came and killed and chased away Avars- Red Croats and then Serbs . If you look for closest image of Sarmathian genetics , look at Herzegovina .
After all there would have to be atleast 70% percents of I2a2-Din in Sarmathians to spread it so much amongs Slavs :)
 
LGM 26.500 to 19. 000 years ago .
R2a aroused before 25.000 years and probably setled India separatly from R1a - folowing valeys of Ind and Gang . R1a become 18.500 years ago , it is present among North Indians and R2a in both North Indians and Dravidians - that mean it come before and separatly from R1a . There is no R2a with R1a in Europe >>>>Those haplogroups are not conected .
I was speacking about darker skined population of Central Asia not Elamites and Hurrians.
Dont Tajikistans speack Altaic languague ? What are similarities betwen they and Kurdic languague ? When I was in Tajikistan I also noticed some similarities in they and Serbian customs - eagle dance is realy similar to Herzegovinian and Montenegro dances , way they greating each other puting hand in friends hand and kising each others hand , they hats are very similar to Montenegro and Herzegovinian hats , they make kaymak like we ( but it is probably Turkic recepy , on Mongolian Kaymak mean " on the top" , but Sarmathians could also took it from them ) , way they boil they milk puting stone that was in fire in it - same like Serbians , on Pamir there is suprising amount of fair hair and light eyes, ... I believe I read some researches that show some I2a2-Din on Pamir . They could be conected with Pashtuns- Sorban tribes in Pakistan and Afganistan.
And if Medes were R and J how did I2a2-Din reached Kurdistan ?
Tajiks are Indo-Europeans and speak a Persian dialect. According to them they are the very first & original Aryans. According to them Aryans are from Tajikistan / Central Asia. There's up to 70% (in some areas) of R1a in Tajikistan.

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/PNAS_2001_v98_p10244.pdf

But I think they are also somehow mixed with the Turkic tribes.

I don't think Dravidians were ever in Caucasus. Because there is absolutely NO (0.00%) main and most important native Indian/Dravidian y-dna haplogroup 'H' in West Asia! Haplogroup H is absolutely lacking in West Asia. If R2a was Dravidian it would come together with the y-dna hg. H. But this is not the case, so R2a in West Asia is not from India!

I2a-din was maybe part of the refugees from Srubna culture who fled to the Zagros mountains and found their safety & happiness.
 
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Tajik Y-DNA.

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http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/PNAS_2001_v98_p10244.pdf

Yagnobi Tajiks have even 32% of R1b (M173) + 16% R1a (M17) + 32% J2 (M172), while Ishkashimi Tajiks have 68% of R1a (M17), Tajk/Khojant Tajiks 64% of R1a and Bartangi Tajiks 40% of R1a.
All of them have very much West Asian J2 (M172) and F* (M89; J1 or G2a) too. And there's also R2a (M124) in these people!
 
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My guess on Scythian DNA is depending which Scythians we're talking about here, the original ones likely carried similar elements that existed in Southern-Central Asia today where the real Indo-Iranians originated, but if we're talking about the later Scythians, they were a diverse group, for instance the Scythians living on the Steppes in Russia/Ukraine were likely a bunch of Iranianized Slavs that carried a huge amount of R1a1a, on the other hand, back in Asia where the Indo-Scythians dominated, they still probably carried R1a1a along with other haplogroups like J2a, R2a, L3, etc.

I don't think Dravidians were ever in Caucasus. Because there is absolutely NO (0.00%) main and most important native Indian/Dravidian y-dna haplogroup 'H' in West Asia! Haplogroup H is absolutely lacking in West Asia. If R2a was Dravidian it would come together with the y-dna hg. H. But this is not the case, so R2a in West Asia is not from India!

How do you figure there's no haplogroup H in the West Asia? That's false, it is found there and the numbers are actually comparable to R2a, here are some studies where both of these haplogroups showed up in the Middle East (I would post the links but I don't have 10 posts):

Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia (Populations of Turkey)
R2 - 1% (5/523)
H - 0.6% (3/523)

Influences of history, geography, and religion on genetic structure: the Maronites in Lebanon (Lebanese and Iranians were tested)
R2 - 1.5% (5/324) Among Iranians
H - 2.5% (8/324) Among Iranians

Also if you check yhrd, you'll notice that haplogroup H exists among:

Bakhtiari - 4% (2/50)
Persians - 3.1% (4/128)
Syrians - 3% (3/100)
Turks - 2.2% (15/670)
Gilaki - 2.1% (1/47)
Mazandarani - 2% (1/50)
Armenians - 2% (2/100)
Kurds - 1.6% (2/126)
Azeri - 1.4% (1/72)
Georgians - 1.3% (1/77)

Keep in mind that I left out other Arab states such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, etc where H is also found in similar numbers as the above, I also only searched one type of haplogroup H haplotype, the numbers could get a little bigger if other haplotypes are looked for.
 
How do you figure there's no haplogroup H in the West Asia? That's false, it is found there and the numbers are actually comparable to R2a, here are some studies where both of these haplogroups showed up in the Middle East (I would post the links but I don't have 10 posts)
Ok, there's some 'H' but not so much! My mistake, thanks for the correction.

Chechens in Northern Caucasus have 15.8% R2a, it's no way thet have 15.8% of H.
The Iranic speaking Ossetians (Alanians) from Alagir have 8% R2a, no way they have as much H.
Kurmanji Kurds in Turkish occupied Kurdistan have 6-8% R2a, no way there's 8% of H in them.

So I don't think there is a correlation between R2a and H in West Asia. Some People say that R2a migrated into West Asia and India from Central Asia at the same time! But it's also possible that R2a in India is from West asia, because in folks in India where there's much R1a & R2a there's also very much West Asian J2!

They found some R2a in the Trialeti culture sites (with Kurgans) in the Caucasus, from about 3000 BCE. According to some scientists Trialeti culture was proto-Indo-European.
 
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My guess on Scythian DNA is depending which Scythians we're talking about here, the original ones likely carried similar elements that existed in Southern-Central Asia today where the real Indo-Iranians originated, but if we're talking about the later Scythians, they were a diverse group, for instance the Scythians living on the Steppes in Russia/Ukraine were likely a bunch of Iranianized Slavs that carried a huge amount of R1a1a, on the other hand, back in Asia where the Indo-Scythians dominated, they still probably carried R1a1a along with other haplogroups like J2a, R2a, L3, etc.
Central Asian Iranic Tajiks have much more R1a than the European Slavic folks, like Poles, Ukrainians and (Bela)Russians...
 
Ok, there's some 'H' but not so much! My mistake, thanks for the correction.

Chechens in Northern Caucasus have 15.8% R2a, it's no way thet have 15.8% of H.
The Iranic speaking Ossetians (Alanians) from Alagir have 8% R2a, no way they have as much H.
Kurmanji Kurds in Turkish occupied Kurdistan have 6-8% R2a, no way there's 8% of H in them.

There are cases where a genetic drift has taken place, on the other hand, let's take the Chechens and Ossetians as an example, if R2a was so common among them, why wasn't it found in the latest study on the Caucasus called "Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region"? 330 samples were Chechens and 357 were Ossetians, not only that, but there was zero R2a in the entire study where 1525 samples were taken, I was not expecting that myself but this just goes to show you that R2a is not really an important lineage in the region, it shows up but its frequency is anywhere from 1% to 5% (More on the lower end), much like H.

So I don't think there is a correlation between R2a and H in West Asia. Some People say that R2a migrated into West Asia and India from Central Asia at the same time! But it's also possible that R2a in India is from West asia, because in folks in India where there's much R1a & R2a there's also very much West Asian J2!
85% to 90% of R2a individuals today live in India, whether it originated there or not we don't know, but we do know that the strongest possibility for point of origin at this point falls somewhere in South Central Asia (Around North Pakistan and Afghanistan), because there we see the R* diversity very high, not to mention that recently it has been suggested that all the R* were likely R2*, if that's the case then all those groups that tested high in R* such as the Burusho and Kalash are actually R2* and their region may be the origins to this lineage.

As far as West Asian R2a goes, it's not out of the question to believe that it came from India, remember that there was an ancient connection between the Indus and Mesopotamia and through trade I'm very positive there was a gene wave going both ways, there's no need to dismiss the South Asian connection just because you feel like it, at the same time it's equally possible to believe that some R2a may have come through the Indo-Iranian expansions, my point is R2a belongs to different groups, but most dominant among South Asians.

They found some R2a in the Trialeti culture sites (with Kurgans) in the Caucasus, from about 3000 BCE. According to some scientists Trialeti culture was proto-Indo-European.
I don't even know where you found this but as far as I know, there's no such thing, if you have a source for the above, please provide it.
 
Ok, thank you for your reply. And thank you for the references to other studies. I used some data from Wells et al. (2001) and Nasidze et al. (2004). Maybe new studies on other places in West Asia, will provide new data on other countries in West Asia.

I think R2a is from South Central Asia (not far from the Himalayas and Hindu Kush), not far from the region where other R subclades are from (R1b and R1a).
And yes it is possible that Parthians and other Iranic folks brought R2a into West Asia. And I believe there's a correlation between R1a and R2a in the Iranic peoples. I think it's from the same source. All Iranic people with R1a have R2a too. So I believe that the ancient Scythians and Medes had some R2a in them too!

There're not so much studies done on R2a, but maybe is West Asian R2a not the same as Indian R2a. I mean European R1b & E is not the same as African R1b & E. Or Q & N in Europe is not the same as Q & N in Turkic tribes.

It's premature to say that hg. R2a in West Asia or in the Iranic folks in Central Asia is from the Indians/Dravidians! Because Dravidians are not from the Hindu Kush where R2a is from, while some Iranic folks are native to that region (Tajikistan etc.) !!!

I don't even know where you found this but as far as I know, there's no such thing, if you have a source for the above, please provide it.
I've got that from the http://dna-forums.org.

Some fella from Hungary with nickname "Jafety" wrote that they found R2a in the Trialeti sites in the Caucasus. If you're interested in this I would ask him.

You can ask him here: http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/13925-multiple-haplogroup-strata-in-armenia/
 
Tajiks are Indo-Europeans and speak a Persian dialect. According to them they are the very first & original Aryans. According to them Aryans are from Tajikistan / Central Asia. There's up to 70% (in some areas) of R1a in Tajikistan.

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/PNAS_2001_v98_p10244.pdf

But I think they are also somehow mixed with the Turkic tribes.

I don't think Dravidians were ever in Caucasus. Because there is absolutely NO (0.00%) main and most important native Indian/Dravidian y-dna haplogroup 'H' in West Asia! Haplogroup H is absolutely lacking in West Asia. If R2a was Dravidian it would come together with the y-dna hg. H. But this is not the case, so R2a in West Asia is not from India!

I2a-din was maybe part of the refugees from Srubna culture who fled to the Zagros mountains and found their safety & happiness.
I didnt say it comed from India -it spreaded from it place of origin south to India and west to West Asia. I just try to prove R2a wasnt acompanied R1a in India or anywhere else - he was there before coming of R1a.
Yes you wright , sorry , Tajik is Persian .
 
I didnt say it comed from India -it spreaded from it place of origin south to India and west to West Asia. I just try to prove R2a wasnt acompanied R1a in India or anywhere else - he was there before coming of R1a.
Yes you wright , sorry , Tajik is Persian .
Oh, I'm sorry that I misunderstood you! My fault. Yes It's possible that R2a is older than R1a so I think you're right that R2a was in India before R1a. But it is also possible that some other new sub clades of R2a migrated into India together with R1a folks.
So it is possible there were different and separate migration waves of R2a into India. First one even before IE people and the second one with the Indo-European people who spoke Sanskrit. But maybe not.
 
Ok, thank you for your reply. And thank you for the references to other studies. I used some data from Wells et al. (2001) and Nasidze et al. (2004). Maybe new studies on other places in West Asia, will new data on other countries in West Asia.

Both of those studies are kind of outdated, I'm not saying they're not legit (Although some people seem to question Nasidze's paper), I'm just saying that sometimes, when a certain lineage is not that common in an area yet out of nowhere shows up in significant numbers, it usually indicates a genetic drift.

I think R2a is from South Central Asia (not far from the Himalayas and Hindu Kush), not far from the region where other R subclades are from (R1b and R1a). All R* subclades are related to each other. And are from the same region. And yes it is possible that Parthians and other Iranic folks brought R2a into West Asia. And I believe there's a correlation between R1a and R2a in the Iranic peoples. I think it's from the same source. All Iranic people with R1a have R2a too. So I believe that the ancient Scythians and Medes had some R2a in them too!
It's possible that R2a was carried by ancient Iranians, but it's also equally possible that it was carried by ancient Dravidians too, my point is, the lineage belongs to different groups, as of today the highest people that carry this lineage actually live in Eastern India, and they're both Indo-Aryans and Dravidians, it also exists among both caste and tribal groups, meaning this lineage predates all this caste/tribal + Aryan/Dravidian stuff, R1a1a too has a similar history in South Asia which is contrary to the belief that it's supposed to be the Aryan lineage or what not.

One thing for sure, R1a1a and R2a correlate only in South Asia, Middle East, and Central Asia, but not in Europe, meaning if R1a1a was part or the early Indo-Europeans, R2a clearly was not.

There're not so much studies done on R2a, but maybe is West Asian R2a not the same as Indian R2a. I mean European R1b & E is not the same as African R1b & E. Or Q & N in Europe is not the same as Q & N in Turkic tribes.
Maybe, maybe not, but when it comes to facts there's no maybe, generally speaking, the story with R2a is not very clear because it's not a very popular lineage in Europe which means not much has been studied on it, but I imagine the story would be similar to the R1b relationship between Europe and the Middle East.

It's premature to say that hg. R2a in West Asia or in the Iranic folks in Central Asia is from the Indians/Dravidians! Because Dravidians are not from the Hindu Kush where R2a is from, while some Iranic folks are native to that region (Tajikistan etc.) !!!
Again, R2a belongs to different groups, but since we're talking about Dravidians, the most leading theory is that they're the original population that lived in the Indus valley before migrating to South India, prior to that their ancestors were probably a mix of Neolithic migrants from the Middle East and local native Asians.

Some fella from Hungary with nickname "Jafety" wrote that they found R2a in the Trialeti sites. If you're interested in this I would ask him.
You misunderstood what this person was saying, there was no R2a found, he/she was simply taking current R2a STR values from FTDNA projects and calculating the TMRCA based on these STR values, which eventually according to his/her theory, it dates back to that time period, this is a person's opinion, not evidence.
 
I didnt say it comed from India -it spreaded from it place of origin south to India and west to West Asia. I just try to prove R2a wasnt acompanied R1a in India or anywhere else - he was there before coming of R1a.
Yes you wright , sorry , Tajik is Persian .

Actually, R2a correlates with R1a1a in South Asia, meaning there's a good chance they both have a similar history there that predates the migration of the Indo-Aryan speakers, the evidence for that is that R1a1a is actually found in most groups in South Asia including tribal Indians.
 
You are probably right , thanks for corection. But R2a has not folowed R1a in IE speackers .
 
Oh, I'm sorry that I misunderstood you! My fault. Yes It's possible that R2a is older than R1a so I think you're right that R2a was in India before R1a. But it is also possible that some other new sub clades of R2a migrated into India together with R1a folks.
So it is possible there were different and separate migration waves of R2a into India. First one even before IE people and the second one with the Indo-European people who spoke Sanskrit. But maybe not.
You said you believe there was R2a in Scythians - where it is in Slavic nations because they are Scythian descendants ?
You believe Srubna was I2a2? Srubna is succesor of Yamna culture - and it was probably proto IE - that was the shelter of R1a during LGM , so how I2a2 get there ?
 
Both of those studies are kind of outdated, I'm not saying they're not legit (Although some people seem to question Nasidze's paper), I'm just saying that sometimes, when a certain lineage is not that common in an area yet out of nowhere shows up in significant numbers, it usually indicates a genetic drift.

It's possible that R2a was carried by ancient Iranians, but it's also equally possible that it was carried by ancient Dravidians too, my point is, the lineage belongs to different groups, as of today the highest people that carry this lineage actually live in Eastern India, and they're both Indo-Aryans and Dravidians, it also exists among both caste and tribal groups, meaning this lineage predates all this caste/tribal + Aryan/Dravidian stuff, R1a1a too has a similar history in South Asia which is contrary to the belief that it's supposed to be the Aryan lineage or what not.

One thing for sure, R1a1a and R2a correlate only in South Asia, Middle East, and Central Asia, but not in Europe, meaning if R1a1a was part or the early Indo-Europeans, R2a clearly was not.

Maybe, maybe not, but when it comes to facts there's no maybe, generally speaking, the story with R2a is not very clear because it's not a very popular lineage in Europe which means not much has been studied on it, but I imagine the story would be similar to the R1b relationship between Europe and the Middle East.

Again, R2a belongs to different groups, but since we're talking about Dravidians, the most leading theory is that they're the original population that lived in the Indus valley before migrating to South India, prior to that their ancestors were probably a mix of Neolithic migrants from the Middle East and local native Asians.

You misunderstood what this person was saying, there was no R2a found, he/she was simply taking current R2a STR values from FTDNA projects and calculating the TMRCA based on these STR values, which eventually according to his/her theory, it dates back to that time period, this is a person's opinion, not evidence.
Ok. But how do you explain 8% of R2a in Kurds while there's only 1.6% of H in them (1.6% according to you)?
 
You are probably right , thanks for corection. But R2a has not folowed R1a in IE speackers .

There's no correlation between R1a1a and R2a in Europe, meaning R2a has no involvement among the earliest Indo-Europeans, but I think both of these lineages likely originated near South Asia or maybe anywhere between South Asia and the Middle East, possibly after the ice-age a clan of men who were mostly R1a1a migrated to the Western Steppes from South Asia or Anatolia and they were responsible for the rise of the Indo-European languages.

Having said that, people need to break things up, Indo-Europeans, Indo-Iranians, and Scythians are not the same, we're talking about different time periods here meaning just because the early Indo-Europeans carried a specific R1a1a lineage, it does not mean the Scythians carried it too.

You said you believe there was R2a in Scythians - where it is in Slavic nations because they are Scythian descendants ?
You believe Srubna was I2a2? Srubna is succesor of Yamna culture - and it was probably proto IE - that was the shelter of R1a during LGM , so how I2a2 get there ?

As I mentioned earlier, the Scythians that lived around Eastern Europe were likely Slavs that were Iranianized since the later Scythians were likely an umbrella.
 
Having said that, people need to break thing us, Indo-Europeans, Indo-Iranians, and Scythians are not the same, we're talking about different time periods here meaning just because the early Indo-Europeans carried a specific R1a1a lineage, it does not mean the Scythians carried it too.
What do you mean? They found R1a in Scythian 'kurgans'.
 
What do you mean? They found R1a in Scythian 'kurgans'.

What I mean is people need to break up Indo-Europeans from Scythians because the two existed in different time periods, there's certainly some Indo-European ancestry, but the original Scythians come from an Iranian stock from Asia where other lineages are found.
 

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