Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[Bodin]

I2a2 in Central Asia? Provide your sources please.



Which means a nation with diverse ancient backgrounds, same thing.

Tatars from Kazahstan ( where Alans lived ) : R1b 6% , R1a29%, I2a2 16% ,N1c 25%, E1b1b 2% , J 8% , G 7% , other 6%
Vandal tribe Silingi used to be called Hari , before they took name by ruler , German tribe Hari , Roman name Arian ,... It is realy comon in all of IE speacking nations
No it is not same thing , my way means Medes ( I2a2-Din ) camed and conquered previous population and later being conquered by other populations- so mixing ocured- name one nation without such mixing , if there would be diverse ancient backgrounds that would mean few diferent nations formed some kind of union in one moment of time - so diference in haplogroups would occured instantly not over very long time period

[Bodin]

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap
Go on this thread and you will find out that I2a2 -Din north is present in Caucasus ,Kurdistan even in Kazahstan and Pacistan -Afganistan and I2a2 -Din in Balkans ,west Turkey, Midle and east Europe. ( Choose that haplogroups on map , there is also all other I2 haplogroups ).Thanks for answering

[Bodin]

They're some form of Scythians which later became known as Alans and apperantly their modern offspring being the Ossetians, an important note to mention here however is that the Ossetians lack some of these lineages that you guys are discussing (Like R1a1a), in other words this is a good example on how a population can be Iranianized.

No they were not some form of Scythians , you just denied yourself , Scythians were R1a - shown by grave excavations, and there is very litle R1a among Ossetians . But there is significant amount of I2a2 in Ossetians - Sarmatians.
No Alans are not same as Sarmathians - they later got in to Sarmathian union , but Alan mean " one that live in steppes" - they are descendants of Masagetae - that lived east of Caspian sea , and Sarmathians west of it - Chinese sources mention Alanliao on that place and say they are descendants of Yancai kingdom ( Osi , Aorsi other names of Alani ).

[Bodin]

Yes , iranians migrated north wards and became slavitized over time.

The Scythian as I studied it , eventually became a ugric people who where with the hunnic invasions and later became the hungarians/magyars. Hungary has ugric with no finnic . Sometime in the ancient times these scythian split or as some say they are a branch of the sarmatians.

isn't R1a1a originally a ukrainian group ?. where they not the peucini a germanic people?

Only some Scythians become Madyars , most of them turned to Slavs

[Bodin]

I don't have the paper myself, but Dienekes commenting on the latest study from the latest paper on the Caucasian populations (Which includes Ossetian samples):

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...-caucasus.html

Also this was the frequency:

Attachment 5137

As you can see, both Ossetian groups carried less than 1% R1a1a* (Older form of R1a1a which was likely from the ancient Iranians), 0% R1a1a7 (Eastern European form), and 0% I* or I2a (This one is for Bodin who's claiming I2a2 for ancient Iranians).

This is not truth North Ossetians have significant I2a2 and other Caucasian groups to :
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...04.00131.x/pdf
and hier is abstract:
Table 3


Y chromosome haplogroup frequencies in Ossetian groups

Haplogroups

Groups N E

∗ C∗ K∗ P1 P∗ R1∗ R1a1∗ F∗ G∗ J2∗ I∗ HD Source

YAP RPS4Y M9 M124 M45 M173 M17 M89 M201 M172 M170

North Ossetia (Russia)

Digora

31 0 0 0 0 0.06 0 0 0.03 0.74 0.03 0.13 0.440 Nasidze et al., (2004)

Ardon

28 0 0 0.07 0 0.04 0 0.04 0.04 0.21 0.29 0.32 0.788 Nasidze et al., (2004)

Zil’ga

23 0 0 0.130 0 0 0 0 0.043 0.565 0.261 0 0.620 Present study

Zamankul

23 0 0 0.217 0 0 0 0 0.087 0.609 0.087 0 0.590 Present study

Alagir

24 0 0 0.083 0.083 0 0.042 0 0 0.750 0.042 0 0.440 Present study

South Ossetia (Georgia)

S. Ossetians

17 0.18 0 0 0 0 0.12 0.06 0.41 - 0.24 0 0.772 Wells et al., (2001)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...f_the_Caucasus
There is extract :

LezginsNEC (Lezgic)31&100000000000000065000006.5&100000000000 000096999999.7&10000000000000009699999I=9.7&100000 0000000005810000058.1&100000000000000000000000.0&1 00000000000000000000000.0&100000000000000000000000 .0&1000000000000001610000016.1&1000000000000000000 00000.00.0—Yunusbaev 2006[9]
DarginsNEC (Dargin)2644I=58see F400400F[xG,I,J2,K]=27Nasidze2004BChechens Total [20]NEC (Nakh)3300.0P18=3.0
P303=2.4I2=.3J1*=20.9M67=55.2
J2b=.3
other=1.2L3=7.03.91.83.30.0-Balanovsky 2011alkarsAltaic (Turkic)[17]38&100000000000000026000002.6&10000000000000028899 99928.9I2*=&100000000000000026000002.60M67=5.3
J2b=2.6
other=15.8L2=&100000000000000052999995.3&100000000 0000001319999913.2&1000000000000001319999913.2&100 000000000000079000007.9&100000000000000000000000.0 H=2.6Battaglia2008Azeris
(Azerbaijan)Altaic (Turkic)[15]725.618.12.8F30.66.9[1]6.911.12.84.2[1]F[xG,I,J2,K]=11Nasidze2004[2]AvarsNEC (Avar-Andic, Avar)1150.0P18=.9
P303=9.6I*=.9
I2a=.9J1e=.9
J1*=58.3M67=.9
other=5.2L2=2.61.714.8.90.0N=1.7Balanovsky 2011[
AndisNEC (Avar-Andic, Andic)49&100000000000000020000002.0G2=
&100000000000000060999996.1I1=&1000000000000000200 00002.0
I2a=&1000000000000002450000024.5&10000000000000036 70000036.7&1000000000000001839999918.4&10000000000 0000000000000.0&100000000000000020000002.0&1000000 00000000060999996.10.0&100000000000000020000002.0â €”Yunusbaev Adygei/
"Circassians"[4]NWC (Adygei)-0.0[5]31.3[6]I*=1.4
I2a=2.9[7]

--Adygei (Kabardin)NWC (Adigei)59&100000000000000000000000&10000000000000 02880000028.8&10000000000000010199999I=10.2F11.9K& 100000000000000017000001.7&10000000000000001700000 1.70KF[xG,I,J2,K]=23.7
K[xP]=15.3



Abkhaz

NWC (Abkhaz-Ubykh)1200 I=33025033.0800—Nasidze2004

[GloomyGonzales]

Tatars from Kazahstan ( where Alans lived ) : R1b 6% , R1a29%, I2a2 16% ,N1c 25%, E1b1b 2% , J 8% , G 7% , other 6%

First of all, Tatars(turkic people) have nothing to do with Sarmatians(IE people). Secondly, Tatars from Kazakhstan and Tatars from Russia are the same people and both of them do not have so much amounts of I2a2 as you state, they have miserable amounts of I2a2 mostly due to intermarriages with Russians.

[Alan]

First of all, Tatars(turkic people) have nothing to do with Sarmatians(IE people). Secondly, Tatars from Kazakhstan and Tatars from Russia are the same people and both of them do not have so much amounts of I2a2 as you state, they have miserable amounts of I2a2 mostly due to intermarriages with Russians.

Turkic People absorbed many Iranic blood throughout history.

[Bodin]

And the Reason why some historians record that Sarmatians are Medes, is also explained above. Mede was a title also used for Scythians. Sauromatan is the real name. Sauro comes from Latin and means something like Lizard. This name was given because of their lizard like Armor. Sauromatan simply "Lizard Medes" The Sarmatians were called descend of Medes because technically they were Medes.

No Sauro on Greeck means lizard ( like in dinoasaur ) , but it is Greek explanation for name of Sarmathians due to simmilarity of words , the name actualy comes from sanscrit Sara - Sky, Dawn , Wise , Old , Shepard , One that protects ,Sun... (It is also part of Zaratustra name -Sara Aster "star from the sky " , " star of wisdom ").
Medes is also from sanscrit and it means man - so it is true many nations have probably used it. But Diodorus say Saramathians are the Medes from Media ( not any Medes) that Scythians took to Caucasus during they rule in Asia .

[Bodin]

@ Alan
your language table is in error

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbor...jandacek07.pdf

slovenes are west-slavic and could have originated from sorbs

No Slovenes are southSlavic languague group , and Slovakians are west Slavic

[Bodin]

First of all, Tatars(turkic people) have nothing to do with Sarmatians(IE people). Secondly, Tatars from Kazakhstan and Tatars from Russia are the same people and both of them do not have so much amounts of I2a2 as you state, they have miserable amounts of I2a2 mostly due to intermarriages with Russians.

Tatars has nothing to do with Sarmathians , but I2a2 was there before they comed , and yes it is 16% , more than Russians

[GloomyGonzales]

Tatars has nothing to do with Sarmathians , but I2a2 was there before they comed , and yes it is 16% , more than Russians

Where did you get 16% I2a2 for Tatars? Could you provide any information about these research?

[GloomyGonzales]

Turkic People absorbed many Iranic blood throughout history.

Nobody questions the fact that Turkic people turkisized Iranian people but here we discuss Sarmatians and AFAIK they were not absorbed by Tatars.

[Alan]

No Sauro on Greeck means lizard ( like in dinoasaur ) , but it is Greek explanation for name of Sarmathians due to simmilarity of words , the name actualy comes from sanscrit Sara - Sky, Dawn , Wise , Old , Shepard , One that protects ,Sun... (It is also part of Zaratustra name -Sara Aster "star from the sky " , " star of wisdom ").
Medes is also from sanscrit and it means man - so it is true many nations have probably used it. But Diodorus say Saramathians are the Medes from Media ( not any Medes) that Scythians took to Caucasus during they rule in Asia .

Another interesting fact is that they were only called Medes from outside while the Medes called themselves Aryan and were made up by 6 tribes according to Heredotus. This is another indication that Mede was not a specific folkname but more like a political status. It is not wrong to to assume that the so called Medes from West Asia were in fact Proto Iranic(Aryan) nomad groups. Mede can be seen similar as Aryan and was used as title throughout the Iranian world. Mede=high priest (political status) Aryan= noble.

[GloomyGonzales]

Tatars has nothing to do with Sarmathians , but I2a2 was there before they comed , and yes it is 16% , more than Russians

Do you mean that I2a2 is a kind of genetic virus that transferred from Sarmatians to Tatars and made them I2a2 people?

[Alan]

Nobody questions the fact that Turkic people turkisized Iranian people but here we discuss Sarmatians and AFAIK they were not absorbed by Tatars.

They did absorb Alans in North Caucasus and the Steppes but your right this was rather small. The Turkic tribes mostly absorbed Sogdian blood.

[Kardu]

Interestingly in modern Georgian remains the echo of the Sarmat ethnonim: Tsarmart-i = pagan.
Probably after Georgia adopted Christianity in early 4th century AD, ethnic name of its non-Christian northern neighbours generalized to mean all pagans.

[Kardu]

They found some R2a in the Trialeti culture sites (with Kurgans) in the Caucasus, from about 3000 BCE. According to some scientists Trialeti culture was proto-Indo-European.

Goga, could you, please, give a reference? I've never heard of paleo-dna test done on some remains of Trialeti culture. In general I am not aware of any paleo dna tests having been conducted in Georgia at all.

[Goga]

Goga, could you, please, give a reference? I've never heard of paleo-dna test done on some remains of Trialeti culture. In general I am not aware of any paleo dna tests having been conducted in Georgia at all.

I'm sorry I made a mistake. Some fella on the other site suggested this , but I misunderstood him and other people and took their ideas as facts.

Here are they talking about it: http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/top...ta-in-armenia/

[Kardu]

Thanks for your reply Goga. Yes, it seems certain DMXX makes an unreferenced assumption about that.

[Alan]

Thanks for your reply Goga. Yes, it seems certain DMXX makes an unreferenced assumption about that.

That user is known for such claims. He was also the User with unreferenced claims about I2a among Kurds.

[Bodin]

Where did you get 16% I2a2 for Tatars? Could you provide any information about these research?

Ofcourse I can .But only Khazahstan Tatars has so many I, I didnt mentioned other Tatars. That information was from Journal of Genetic Genealogy, hier is the Link ( read data for East Europe , you will find data for Tatars from Kazahstan , but also for various Caucasus populations ) :
http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik2.pdf
Enjoy, and thanks for answering

[Bodin]

Do you mean that I2a2 is a kind of genetic virus that transferred from Sarmatians to Tatars and made them I2a2 people?

No I dont think it is a genetic viruse . I clearly said that there was some I2a2 peoples in Northen Kazahstan before Tatars , when Tatars comed , they conquered them , and in time become one nation. I cant say it more simply . Egzample : when Russians conquered Finnic nations ( Komi , Maari ,...) in today Northwest Russia , they didnt catch any viruse , but today in some these aerias population has over 50% of N1c ( Finnic) - not only Maari , Komi ,... but Russians to , and that is result of mixing and Russization , simillar proces could occure in Kazahstan to .

[Bodin]

Interestingly in modern Georgian remains the echo of the Sarmat ethnonim: Tsarmart-i = pagan.
Probably after Georgia adopted Christianity in early 4th century AD, ethnic name of its non-Christian northern neighbours generalized to mean all pagans.

Very interesting , Georgians and Sarmathians lived like neighbors very long time ( VII century BC - II century AC , and even later some groups of Sarmathians stayed on Caucasus - Roxolani , they are maybe represented in Ossetians , Dargins , Chuvash, all with high I2a2 ) , so influence on both sides has to be remarkable .
There is also some I in Georgians , is there some I2a2 -Din , or all of it is I* ( like you ) and I2* ?
Georgia , Turkey and Armenia are very interesting regarding I haplogroup - I* was mainly found there , and I2* was found only there - so could it mean that LGM refuge of IJ and later I was in South Caucasus? I2a2* is not yet founded , so we dont know his land of origin.
Thanks for joining discusion , and welcome.

[Cobol19]

I was talking about the numbers of Haplogroup H and R2a you shared with us.

Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia

Influences of history, geography, and religion on genetic structure: the Maronites in Lebanon

thats exactly what I was trying to say. Ok sorry my mistake I thought you tried to link R2a to Gypsies because you thought R2 and H correlate. Just like have mentioned R2a is very small among Gypsies and only found among one Sinti Group in Uzbekstan. This is rather given to them by the local Uzbeks. We all know that Gypsies tend to marry males into their community because females are usually not given to them. The same can also be seen in the Balkans were there are more European yDNA haplogroups than mtDNA. My goal was simply to show that R2a did not reached West Asia or the Kurds with the Gypsies but is much longer in this Region.

I don't think I ever said R2a and H correlate nor I said it came through the Gypsies, I said they had comparable numbers in West Asia, which they do, both lineages are not that significant.

I actually red somewhere that most of the R2a in East Europe is of Jewish origin. R2a among Gypsies in East Europe is as frequent as R1a or any other non typical Gypsy Haplogroup.

I would say 90% of R2a in Europe is indeed of Jewish origin (Both Ashkenazi and Sephardi), these European Jewish R2a resemble the Middle Eastern Jewish R2a which means they came from them, this comparison has been done in our R2 FTDNA project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

If you're not aware, based on Behar, R2a is likely a very strong lineage among the Iraqi and Iranian Jews (Go to page 37 for the numbers):

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...re09103-s1.pdf

For some reason, he did not split R2 from Q, so the frequency is actually under PQR2, the Iraqi Jews carry about 30% (24/79), while the Iranian Jews carry 36% (17/49), I can guarantee that each group carries at least 10% R2a if not more (Likely more), because P* is extremely rare, other famous haplogroups under P such as R1a and R1b already have their own columns, that leaves us with Q, among Iraqi/Iranian Jews Q1b is also quite popular like R2a, so the percentages are most likely split between R2a and Q1b with a minor Q1a.

No one said the "South Asian" origin of R2a is impossible just like no one did it with R1a. What I denied was that some People tried to connect R2a with the expansion of Gypsies just because this one Sinti Group in Uzbekistan showed some R2a in reality R2a in other Sinti and Roma groups is very rare. You could find more typical Southeast European lineages among them, than R2a! In fact many scientist place the origin of R2 rather in Central Asia around Tajikistan but when someone hears South Asia, he also has to know what can be meant under this geographical Term. It is the same dilemma with Dienekes "South Asian" component.

I never suggested that the Gypsies brought R2a, I mean they probably did carry a small number of R2a among them (Which has been proven), but I doubt they played a vital role in spreading it, the strongest candidates are Indo-Iranians and Turks, along with Neolithic migrations.

[Cobol19]

Tatars from Kazahstan ( where Alans lived ) : R1b 6% , R1a29%, I2a2 16% ,N1c 25%, E1b1b 2% , J 8% , G 7% , other 6%
Vandal tribe Silingi used to be called Hari , before they took name by ruler , German tribe Hari , Roman name Arian ,... It is realy comon in all of IE speacking nations
No it is not same thing , my way means Medes ( I2a2-Din ) camed and conquered previous population and later being conquered by other populations- so mixing ocured- name one nation without such mixing , if there would be diverse ancient backgrounds that would mean few diferent nations formed some kind of union in one moment of time - so diference in haplogroups would occured instantly not over very long time period

Couple of things, first, please provide me the source for the Tatar study, don't just write the numbers down, the other thing is, it's been a known fact that the Tatars living in the old USSR territories have actually intermarried with Russians, so it's not uncommon for them to carry such lineages that resemble Eastern European Russians, as you can see they also have high R1a and N1c which are both high and significant among Russians (That is, assuming your numbers are real and you provide the study).

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap
Go on this thread and you will find out that I2a2 -Din north is present in Caucasus ,Kurdistan even in Kazahstan and Pacistan -Afganistan and I2a2 -Din in Balkans ,west Turkey, Midle and east Europe. ( Choose that haplogroups on map , there is also all other I2 haplogroups ).Thanks for answering

This map shows one person from Kazakhstan, and by the name of this person, he sounds Russian, I actually have a Russian coworker from Kazakhstan, he confirmed that there are a lot of Russians that live there (At least 30% of the population), and even if this person was not Russian, this map surely shows how weak and insignificant I2a2 is in Central Asia, if anything it proves my point.

This is not truth North Ossetians have significant I2a2 and other Caucasian groups to :
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...04.00131.x/pdf

As I said before, many question that Nasidze study, in any case, from the link you provided it only shows two Ossetian populations that carry haplogroup I*, notice from the same link that the rest do not carry it? Not to mention the latest most relevant study showed no I at all among them, the other thing is, even if they were carrying I*, how can you prove it was I2a2? Surely it could be I2a1, or I2c, or I2b, you can't simply speculate on facts just because you feel like it, show me a study where they carry I2a2, then we'll talk, until then, you have no good argument.