Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[GloomyGonzales]

Ofcourse I can .But only Khazahstan Tatars has so many I, I didnt mentioned other Tatars. That information was from Journal of Genetic Genealogy, hier is the Link ( read data for East Europe , you will find data for Tatars from Kazahstan , but also for various Caucasus populations ) :
http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik2.pdf
Enjoy, and thanks for answering

My comments about this paper:
1. "Tatars, Kaz" means Tatars from Kazan (capital of Tatarstan Republic ) but not Tatars from Kazakhstan.
2. Kazanian Tatars have some I haplogroups but they are Germanic(I-M223 and I-M253) but not South Slavic I2a1b (former I2a2) as you say.

[Kardu]

Very interesting , Georgians and Sarmathians lived like neighbors very long time ( VII century BC - II century AC , and even later some groups of Sarmathians stayed on Caucasus - Roxolani , they are maybe represented in Ossetians , Dargins , Chuvash, all with high I2a2 ) , so influence on both sides has to be remarkable .
There is also some I in Georgians , is there some I2a2 -Din , or all of it is I* ( like you ) and I2* ?
Georgia , Turkey and Armenia are very interesting regarding I haplogroup - I* was mainly found there , and I2* was found only there - so could it mean that LGM refuge of IJ and later I was in South Caucasus? I2a2* is not yet founded , so we dont know his land of origin.
Thanks for joining discusion , and welcome.

Thank you, Bodin.
So far we know for certain only one more Georgian I2* except me, belonging to an old noble family. According to scientific papers there must be few more but nothing is known about their haplotypes or surnames.
As for the origins currently it is believed that IJ had its roots somewhere in the Caucasus region but I2* has to be a later back-migration.

[Kardu]

That user is known for such claims. He was also the User with unreferenced claims about I2a among Kurds.

Actually he has admitted his mistake :)

"A mistype; I commented on the Armenian R2a age calculated by Jafety relative to the Trialeti culture. I'm not aware of any ancient Y-DNA being recovered from the Caucasus."

[Bodin]

Couple of things, first, please provide me the source for the Tatar study, don't just write the numbers down, the other thing is, it's been a known fact that the Tatars living in the old USSR territories have actually intermarried with Russians, so it's not uncommon for them to carry such lineages that resemble Eastern European Russians, as you can see they also have high R1a and N1c which are both high and significant among Russians (That is, assuming your numbers are real and you provide the study).



This map shows one person from Kazakhstan, and by the name of this person, he sounds Russian, I actually have a Russian coworker from Kazakhstan, he confirmed that there are a lot of Russians that live there (At least 30% of the population), and even if this person was not Russian, this map surely shows how weak and insignificant I2a2 is in Central Asia, if anything it proves my point.



As I said before, many question that Nasidze study, in any case, from the link you provided it only shows two Ossetian populations that carry haplogroup I*, notice from the same link that the rest do not carry it? Not to mention the latest most relevant study showed no I at all among them, the other thing is, even if they were carrying I*, how can you prove it was I2a2? Surely it could be I2a1, or I2c, or I2b, you can't simply speculate on facts just because you feel like it, show me a study where they carry I2a2, then we'll talk, until then, you have no good argument.

http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik2.pdf
Tatars are Turkic nation and N1c is common in Altai , also R1a is also common on Altai , what makes you say it is from Russians ?
Yes there is many Russians in Kazahstan , but I am not shore this one is Russian , do you have research of Kazahstan haplogroups that shows no I ?
Every research for North Ossetians I see shows I2a2 present "the latest most relevant studies" .
It would be very suprisingly if it is I2a1 becouse only place where it is found east of Italy is 1,6% among Albanians from Macedonia. Also I2b is realy nonposible - there was not gothic kingdom or Varangians.
Where do you think Kurds get 25% of I2a2 they have , what do you believe I2a2-Din origins are ?

[Bodin]

My comments about this paper:
1. "Tatars, Kaz" means Tatars from Kazan (capital of Tatarstan Republic ) but not Tatars from Kazakhstan.
2. Kazanian Tatars have some I haplogroups but they are Germanic(I-M223 and I-M253) but not South Slavic I2a1b (former I2a2) as you say.

1) Yes you are right , my mistake , sorry , but that is place where Volga Bulgaria was - and Bulgars are probably Sarmathians to - Balkan Bulgars also have high I2a1b.
2)from same site :
The main Turkic-speaking populations in East Europe

are the Tatars, Chuvash and Bashkirs.

The “Balkan” Haplogroup I represents the opposite

of Haplogroup R1b: its frequency is low (less than 5%)

in the Bashkirs but higher (14-24%) in the other Turkicspeakers


I dont believe they would call I M223 and I M253 "Balcanic"
I2a1b is not South Slavic , to say that you would have to prove there was significant settling of Slavs in Balkans and Kurdistan . South Slavic is only languague category.

[Bodin]

Thank you, Bodin.
So far we know for certain only one more Georgian I2* except me, belonging to an old noble family. According to scientific papers there must be few more but nothing is known about their haplotypes or surnames.
As for the origins currently it is believed that IJ had its roots somewhere in the Caucasus region but I2* has to be a later back-migration.

Yes but back-migration from where? - There is no founded I2* anywhere in world except Georgia, Turkey and Armenia . Thanks for answering

[sparkey]

Yes but back-migration from where? - There is no founded I2* anywhere in world except Georgia, Turkey and Armenia . Thanks for answering

I2* is now an empty set... all sufficiently tested I2* in Georgia, Turkey, and Armenia has been shown to be I2c with the discovery of the L596 and L597 SNPs. Specifically, Asian I2c is part of the apparently youngest STR cluster of I2c known as I2c-B.

[sparkey]

TSo far we know for certain only one more Georgian I2* except me, belonging to an old noble family. According to scientific papers there must be few more but nothing is known about their haplotypes or surnames.
As for the origins currently it is believed that IJ had its roots somewhere in the Caucasus region but I2* has to be a later back-migration.

I assume that you are either kit #164204 or kit #47732 in the FTDNA I2*/new I2b/new I2c Project. You can update your haplogroup identification to I2c; former I2*-B is thoroughly confirmed to be L596+ L597+. I agree that it is a back-migration, by the way, but despite thinking a lot about how it got back to Asia, I'm still stumped. How yes no and I have talked a bit about it on this forum and figured that Crete could have been an important place along its migration path, and that its spread must have something to do with seafaring. It could have started its migration as far away as Germany, as that's around where its brother clusters are centered.

[Alan]

I2* is now an empty set... all sufficiently tested I2* in Georgia, Turkey, and Armenia has been shown to be I2c with the discovery of the L596 and L597 SNPs. Specifically, Asian I2c is part of the apparently youngest STR cluster of I2c known as I2c-B.

Sparkey something interesting. Please look were they found the I* among the Armenians. Not one of them in Armenia but most in East Anatolia and Northwest Iran ( the major Kurdish inhabidet regions).

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

[sparkey]

Sparkey something interesting. Please look were they found the I* among the Armenians. Not one of them in Armenia but most in East Anatolia and Northwest Iran ( the major Kurdish regions).

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

You mean all subclades of Haplogroup I, right? That is interesting. Actually, I don't expect the different subclades of Haplogroup I to have arrived in Armenian populations at the same time... the fact that all of them are fairly dispersed as far as Armenians go probably tells us something about the patterns of European migrations into Armenian populations. I'm not that familiar with historical Armenian migrations, was there some way they could have met these expanding European-origin populations on their fringes?

[Cobol19]

http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik2.pdf
Tatars are Turkic nation and N1c is common in Altai , also R1a is also common on Altai , what makes you say it is from Russians ?

There are many problems with your link, first, the Tatars listed are NOT from Central Asia, they're from Eastern Europe, and even if we are to take their origins based on haplogroup N1c for example, the presence of this haplogroup is strong in Siberia and East Asia, not Central Asia or ancient Iranian territories in South Central Asia, mind you we have not ruled out whether this is N1c1 or not, if so, then it's Baltic-Slavic-Finnic, but I won't speculate on that since it says N1c.

On the same token, where on earth do you see I2a2? All I see is I*, what makes you think the Tatars are carrying I2a2? Even if they are carrying it, how can you use this as evidence when this haplogroup is so rare in Central Asia? I'm sorry but you have a very weak argument here.

Yes there is many Russians in Kazahstan , but I am not shore this one is Russian , do you have research of Kazahstan haplogroups that shows no I ?

The name sounds Russian to me, and I'm not sure which study it was, but I don't remember I2a2 in there, I think they had like 40% C3, anyways, to give you an idea about Kazakhstan Y-DNA, follow this link:

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/12854-kz-dna/

There's only one I1 in the project, and he's Tatar actually, not Kazakh.

Every research for North Ossetians I see shows I2a2 present "the latest most relevant studies" .

Show me the study where I2a2 was found, don't just tell me.

It would be very suprisingly if it is I2a1 becouse only place where it is found east of Italy is 1,6% among Albanians from Macedonia. Also I2b is realy nonposible - there was not gothic kingdom or Varangians.

Check out the Armenian FTDNA project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

Out of 20 individuals with haplogroup I, the breakdown for the haplogroup is the following:

I2c* - 70% (14/20)
I2b1 - 20% (5/20)
I2a2 - 5% (1/20)

This is the only project which comes similar to Iranian populations like the Persians or Kurds, I can't imagine the Kurds being I2a2 mostly because they live on the eastern parts of Anatolia, I2a2 is usually more common in the western parts which is why it may be more common in Anatolian Turks.

Where do you think Kurds get 25% of I2a2 they have , what do you believe I2a2-Din origins are ?

Where did you come up with 25% I2a2 for Kurds? Please provide the source, I know two studies where I* is shown, but once again, we don't know whether this is I2a, I2b, or I2c, and I believe the origins of I2a2 is somewhere around Southeast Europe.

[Cobol19]

You mean all subclades of Haplogroup I, right? That is interesting. Actually, I don't expect the different subclades of Haplogroup I to have arrived in Armenian populations at the same time... the fact that all of them are fairly dispersed as far as Armenians go probably tells us something about the patterns of European migrations into Armenian populations. I'm not that familiar with historical Armenian migrations, was there some way they could have met these expanding European-origin populations on their fringes?

I2 in general likely entered Anatolia from the Balkans, probably the greatest I2 expansion might have been during the Byzantine period, so it's not out of the question that this was brought by a few Greek-Armenian encounters, but I also expect more ancient migrations from the Balkans to Anatolia which also likely brought I2.

[Alan]

You mean all subclades of Haplogroup I, right? That is interesting. Actually, I don't expect the different subclades of Haplogroup I to have arrived in Armenian populations at the same time... the fact that all of them are fairly dispersed as far as Armenians go probably tells us something about the patterns of European migrations into Armenian populations. I'm not that familiar with historical Armenian migrations, was there some way they could have met these expanding European-origin populations on their fringes?

Yes all but mainly I2c. Is it possible that some of the I* found among Kurds is also partly I2c? or is all of it clearly I2a?

However I still assume that most of it is I2a because the I2a found among Armenians is also from East Anatolia.

[sparkey]

I2 in general likely entered Anatolia from the Balkans, probably the greatest I2 expansion might have been during the Byzantine period, so it's not out of the question that this was brought by a few Greek-Armenian encounters, but I also expect more ancient migrations from the Balkans to Anatolia which also likely brought I2.

It seems obvious that the I2 that ended up in Anatolia would have come from its neighbors, but we have the curiosity that I2c has an apparent center of diversity close to Germany... that's pretty far away. And the predicted age of Armenian I2c-B is only about 2300 years old per Nordtvedt (and he seems to have made his estimate even more recent in his latest tree)... so it must have happened relatively recently. That's a long way and not too long ago. Do you give any credence to the "merchant clan" theory?

[Cobol19]

It seems obvious that the I2 that ended up in Anatolia would have come from its neighbors, but we have the curiosity that I2c has an apparent center of diversity close to Germany... that's pretty far away. And the predicted age of Armenian I2c-B is only about 2300 years old per Nordtvedt (and he seems to have made his estimate even more recent in his latest tree)... so it must have happened relatively recently. That's a long way and not too long ago. Do you give any credence to the "merchant clan" theory?

Germany you say? This may fit the bill of that time-line:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

[sparkey]

Yes all but mainly I2c. Is it possible that some of the I* found among Kurds is also partly I2c? or is all of it clearly I2a?

However I still assume that most of it is I2a because the I2a found among Armenians is also from East Anatolia.

I think data on Kurds is deficient at the moment. IIRC there were some STR predictions that indicated I2a in a study or two but I don't remember which, maybe Nebel et al or something. Nasidze et al showed levels of Haplogroup I but not subclades.

[sparkey]

Germany you say? This may fit the bill of that time-line:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

I would expect at least one French I2c-B sample if that was it, but that's not the case. Although, there is only one German I2c-B sample so far... frequency tells us less than diversity, I suspect. It could have been a single Galatian family with a very rare haplogroup that just happened to be extremely successful. That's plausible. We still need an explanation for its presence as the dominant subclade in Crete, though... that's pretty geographically isolated from the rest... although the only Cretan sample I see with a full STR set publicly available clusters quite Western as far as I2c-B goes, so that could be a different circumstance.

[Cobol19]

I would expect at least one French I2c-B sample if that was it, but that's not the case. Although, there is only one German I2c-B sample so far... frequency tells us less than diversity, I suspect. It could have been a single Galatian family with a very rare haplogroup that just happened to be extremely successful. That's plausible. We still need an explanation for its presence as the dominant subclade in Crete, though... that's pretty geographically isolated from the rest... although the only Cretan sample I see with a full STR set publicly available clusters quite Western as far as I2c-B goes, so that could be a different circumstance.

It's not impossible for a minority to be lucky and have some successful offspring.

[sparkey]

It's not impossible for a minority to be lucky and have some successful offspring.

With the claims of Georgian and Armenian nobility from the Asian I2c descendants (including direct descent from the House of Hasan-Jalalyan) they could have had a cultural advantage. Although I tend to take such claims with a grain of salt.

[Alan]

I think data on Kurds is deficient at the moment. IIRC there were some STR predictions that indicated I2a in a study or two but I don't remember which, maybe Nebel et al or something. Nasidze et al showed levels of Haplogroup I but not subclades.

Yes it was the study of Nebel et al. Nasidze study was about Anatolian, Georgian Kurds. Nebel was about Iraqi Kurds and both showed I2* among them.

[Bodin]

I2* is now an empty set... all sufficiently tested I2* in Georgia, Turkey, and Armenia has been shown to be I2c with the discovery of the L596 and L597 SNPs. Specifically, Asian I2c is part of the apparently youngest STR cluster of I2c known as I2c-B.

Than I make mistake , thanks for corecting . I wonder were I2* would be found , or it is died out ?Thanks for answering

[Bodin]

There are many problems with your link, first, the Tatars listed are NOT from Central Asia, they're from Eastern Europe, and even if we are to take their origins based on haplogroup N1c for example, the presence of this haplogroup is strong in Siberia and East Asia, not Central Asia or ancient Iranian territories in South Central Asia, mind you we have not ruled out whether this is N1c1 or not, if so, then it's Baltic-Slavic-Finnic, but I won't speculate on that since it says N1c.

On the same token, where on earth do you see I2a2? All I see is I*, what makes you think the Tatars are carrying I2a2? Even if they are carrying it, how can you use this as evidence when this haplogroup is so rare in Central Asia? I'm sorry but you have a very weak argument here.



The name sounds Russian to me, and I'm not sure which study it was, but I don't remember I2a2 in there, I think they had like 40% C3, anyways, to give you an idea about Kazakhstan Y-DNA, follow this link:

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/12854-kz-dna/

There's only one I1 in the project, and he's Tatar actually, not Kazakh.



Show me the study where I2a2 was found, don't just tell me.



Check out the Armenian FTDNA project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

Out of 20 individuals with haplogroup I, the breakdown for the haplogroup is the following:

I2c* - 70% (14/20)
I2b1 - 20% (5/20)
I2a2 - 5% (1/20)

This is the only project which comes similar to Iranian populations like the Persians or Kurds, I can't imagine the Kurds being I2a2 mostly because they live on the eastern parts of Anatolia, I2a2 is usually more common in the western parts which is why it may be more common in Anatolian Turks.



Where did you come up with 25% I2a2 for Kurds? Please provide the source, I know two studies where I* is shown, but once again, we don't know whether this is I2a, I2b, or I2c, and I believe the origins of I2a2 is somewhere around Southeast Europe.

Read the link you will find that I is called "Balkanic " - so no it is not I2b or i2c
Ofcourse mainly haplogroup would be C - there was many Mongolic invasions, and Mongols killed a lot of old population , like anywhere they were .
Hier is map that shows I in Northwestern Kazahstan , and before you ask it is highly unlikely to be I2b or I2c .Present some data that would point it would be I2b or I2c
Attachment 5146
No I2a2 is not common in Turkey at all ( all I is 4% , and it is mostly in most western parts from Serbian-I2a2 and Varangian-I1 and I2b settling ) , so how do you think it get from southeast Europe ,where you presume it is originated , to Kurdistan without any impact on Anatolia ?Do you have some reasons to say it is some other I than I2a2 - present data .
It could only be I2a2 , from where would I2b or I2c comed to Kurdistan ? I believe there is some researches for Iraqian Kurds that show I2a2.
I2a2 origins cant be in Southeast Europe - it is to young to be on Balkans since Paleolithe , and it is highly unplausible for it to be in R1a LGM refuge and survive in such high percentage among Serbs and Croats . Only plausable explanation is that it has been carried by Sarmathians - it folow they movements.
What makes you think I2a2 is originated in eats Europe?

[GloomyGonzales]

Read the link you will find that I is called "Balkanic " - so no it is not I2b or i2c

You should read more carefully.

Quotation from this paper:
"The other two subhaplogroups of I are less frequent in
East Europe. The maximum area of I1a-M253 is in
southern Scandinavia and that of I1b2-M223 is in
Germany. Both have, however, a secondary maximum
in the eastern parts of East Europe. I1a reaches as high
values as 15% in the Volga area, and I1b2 reaches the
frequency of 6% in the Ural area; see the Wikipedia and
Balanovsky I1a maps."

The Republic of Tatarstan (historical Volga Bulgaria) is located in the Volga area.

Here Balanovsky map for I1a

http://i50.tinypic.com/2hgst50.png

As you can see maximum is in the Volga area(Tatarstan and Chuvashia).

[Bodin]

There are many problems with your link, first, the Tatars listed are NOT from Central Asia, they're from Eastern Europe, and even if we are to take their origins based on haplogroup N1c for example, the presence of this haplogroup is strong in Siberia and East Asia, not Central Asia or ancient Iranian territories in South Central Asia, mind you we have not ruled out whether this is N1c1 or not, if so, then it's Baltic-Slavic-Finnic, but I won't speculate on that since it says N1c.

On the same token, where on earth do you see I2a2? All I see is I*, what makes you think the Tatars are carrying I2a2? Even if they are carrying it, how can you use this as evidence when this haplogroup is so rare in Central Asia? I'm sorry but you have a very weak argument here.



The name sounds Russian to me, and I'm not sure which study it was, but I don't remember I2a2 in there, I think they had like 40% C3, anyways, to give you an idea about Kazakhstan Y-DNA, follow this link:

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/12854-kz-dna/

There's only one I1 in the project, and he's Tatar actually, not Kazakh.



Show me the study where I2a2 was found, don't just tell me.



Check out the Armenian FTDNA project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

Out of 20 individuals with haplogroup I, the breakdown for the haplogroup is the following:

I2c* - 70% (14/20)
I2b1 - 20% (5/20)
I2a2 - 5% (1/20)

This is the only project which comes similar to Iranian populations like the Persians or Kurds, I can't imagine the Kurds being I2a2 mostly because they live on the eastern parts of Anatolia, I2a2 is usually more common in the western parts which is why it may be more common in Anatolian Turks.



Where did you come up with 25% I2a2 for Kurds? Please provide the source, I know two studies where I* is shown, but once again, we don't know whether this is I2a, I2b, or I2c, and I believe the origins of I2a2 is somewhere around Southeast Europe.

Where did you get idea that Kurdic I could be I2c ?
I2c ( former I2*B ) was found only in LOW frequencies in Armenia , Georgia and Turkey and it cant be present in Kazahstan or Ossetia or Kurdistan ( it is partualy in Iran and Iraq)
And there is themap that showing I2a in Caucasus and Kurdistan:
Haplogroup_I2a ydna.jpgNow if you still have some doubts , it is time for some proofs

[Bodin]

You should read more carefully.

Quotation from this paper:
"The other two subhaplogroups of I are less frequent in
East Europe. The maximum area of I1a-M253 is in
southern Scandinavia and that of I1b2-M223 is in
Germany. Both have, however, a secondary maximum
in the eastern parts of East Europe. I1a reaches as high
values as 15% in the Volga area, and I1b2 reaches the
frequency of 6% in the Ural area; see the Wikipedia and
Balanovsky I1a maps."

The Republic of Tatarstan (historical Volga Bulgaria) is located in the Volga area.

Here Balanovsky map for I1a

http://i50.tinypic.com/2hgst50.png

As you can see maximum is in the Volga area(Tatarstan and Chuvashia).

No I1 around Volga coming from Volgash Germans , and it is in today Russian population around Volga , not Tatar . When they speack about Tatars they call they I " Balkanic" why would they call I1 Balkanic?
Hier is map of I2a that show strong presence around Tatarstan :
Haplogroup_I2a ydna.jpg
I make mistake and confused Tatars from Kazan with Tatars from Kazakhstan , tanks again for corection , but on this map of I in Central Asia , there is I in NorthWest Kazakhstan :I u zap Aziji.jpg
Thanks for answering