Bodin
Regular Member
- Messages
- 503
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- Location
- Praia , Cape Verde
- Ethnic group
- Srbin
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- I2a1b-Din
- mtDNA haplogroup
- X2
No I dont think E1b1b has yet reached Europe by that time , but I would give you rep for try
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I'll be adventurous and say that he probably wasn't G or E, because what would a person carrying a gene associated with sedentary agriculturalists be doing around the Alps, much more suited for pastoralism? I say it's I, R1b or maybe even R1a (if the Indo-Europeans had reached that region by then)
Edit: Now then, if the theory that G2a was brought to Europe by pastoralists is correct, then G2a would be quite possible... However, wouldn't the fact that G2a has been found in LBK (a quite sedentary culture) individuals actually deter the G2a pastoralist hypothesis?
The difference in skull is evolutive, not necessarily intrebreeding. I've seen in some eastern-europeans these trait also, the back of the head is straight 90 degrees.
I think the bigger surprise was something else: many people (including myself) thought that if there was interbreeding between Neanderthals and Homo sapiens, it would have happened between the Neanderthals and the first "modern" humans that arrived into Europe in the Paleolithic. However, instead it turns out that the interbreeding already occured during humanity's initial "breakout" of Africa, and that basically the entire non-subsaharan-African population carries some Neanderthal DNA with them.
This applies to many Neolithic cultures, but LBK was much more agriculture-oriented, at least according to what I have read in Wikipedia:Good point. However, it is a common misconception that early farmers were sedentary folks. Neolithic agriculture was very basic and served as a additional means of subsistence beside other more traditional ways of feeding oneself, like hunting and gathering. Then, the Neolithic really started with domestication, not agriculture, and the first domesticates came from the Caucasus and northern Mesopotamia, where haplogroup G2a and J1 are the most common. In other words, Neolithic farmers were probably more goat and cattle herders, who still hunted regularly and grew some crops on the side to complement their diet. I now think that the LBK folks came from that region in eastern Anatolia/south Caucasus where animal domestication originated and were a blend of G2a and J1 people, perhaps including J2 people too.
But wasn't Terramare a Bronze Age culture?The problem with Ötzi is that he lived at the limit of two distinct Neolithic routes : the Danubian (LBK) and Mediterranean (Terramare) ones.
That's why I considered it the most improbable (among many other things).As for R1a, I think that an R1a person would have carried bronze weapons or tools, rather than copper ones at that time.
This applies to many Neolithic cultures, but LBK was much more agriculture-oriented, at least according to what I have read in Wikipedia:
But wasn't Terramare a Bronze Age culture?
marcantonio said:According to an interview with an austrian scientist Ötzi is G2a4!
Link?
The source of this information is an interview with Dr. Eduard Egarter-Vigl, Head of Conservation and Assistant to research projects of the Archaeological Museum in Bozen, given in a documentary on Ötzi broadcast by 3sat on 10th august 2011. See also the following link for more info on this documentary:
http://www.3sat.de/page/?source=/dokumentationen/155967/index.html
But unless you speak German this link will be of no interest!
If you understand german you can view this documentary today on BR-alpha (a southern german tv receivable on Astra-SAT). See here for more info on the docu beginning at 9 PM: Ötzi, ein Archäologie-Krimi von Christiane Sprachmann.According to an interview with an austrian scientist Ötzi is G2a4! The source of this information is an interview with Dr. Eduard Egarter-Vigl, Head of Conservation and Assistant to research projects of the Archaeological Museum in Bozen, given in a documentary on Ötzi broadcast by 3sat on 10th august 2011.
Very interesting. I know the region and the new Ötzi reconstruction reminds me of some Vinschger (Val Venosta = upper Etsch valley) people. Today local history: The Vinschgau Valley was inhabited mainly by Rhaeto-Romanic speaking people until some centuries ago. After the Aleman (from North and Switzerland) church and nobility dominance was to long, the prevalent language changed to german. The people (especially of the upper valley near lake Reschen) compared to nearby populations is still featured with more dark hair (see pics 1, 2, 3, 4, 5). But remind that by isotopic composition of his tooth enamel Ötzi probably could have lived his early live mainly in the Isarcus valley (Eisack, Isarco) near Brixen. Eisack-Valley was flooded with germanic people (Bavaria, much more light hair nowadays). The Raetics in their pre-roman-time could have been connected with the Etruscan culture.
I think the Y-DNA of Ötzi will maybe be overweighted after the finding out.
If you understand german you can view this documentary today on BR-alpha (a southern german tv receivable on Astra-SAT). See here for more info on the docu beginning at 9 PM: Ötzi, ein Archäologie-Krimi von Christiane Sprachmann.
Dr. Egarter-Vigl was the local forensic crime investigation leader of South Tyrol and involved for years with the Ötzi case. I think he is more into traditional forensic then DNA, but as head of the investigation, has many insights. Is there a link to the research team or project of Ötzi-DNA?
I know, I said "pre-roman-time" to describe that nowadays people in the Vinschgau Valley (and the whole Tyrol region) could be a mix of Raetics (maybe in parts descendants from Ötzi's culture), Celts, Etruscans, Venetians, Romans and Germanic tribes (Bavarians, Alemans, Langobards). I hope the scientists make some comparison to past studies like "Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms". Because people in some Alps Valleys could have very small influence by the last millennias migration waves, there can be a link to Ötzi or other ancient DNA.There where no etruscans in Italy at the time of Otzi.
The rumor mill is saying G2a4. G2a would be unsurprising as everybody has said, although G2a3 would be more expected than G2a4.
From a comment on Dienekes' blog:
I have no idea whether or not this commenter is a reliable source. But there you go.
Those who voted G2a before this are:
That would be a lot of people to give +rep to! Oh well. Let's wait and see if the rumor is right before handing out the reputation.
I know, I said "pre-roman-time" to describe that nowadays people in the Vinschgau Valley (and the whole Tyrol region) could be a mix of Raetics (maybe in parts descendants from Ötzi's culture), Celts, Etruscans, Venetians, Romans and Germanic tribes (Bavarians, Alemans, Langobards). I hope the scientists make some comparison to past studies like "Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms". Because people in some Alps Valleys could have very small influence by the last millennias migration waves, there can be a link to Ötzi or other ancient DNA.
To finalise, Otzi would not have been a celt or etruscan or venetic or roman or german or bavarian or anything else........he was purely a Raeti person speaking a raetic language and living in raeti lands. We do not have any better than this simplified version.
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