E1b in Europe

[Knovas]

Knovas is onto something here. The entire "E" haplogroup is representative of Caucasoids - or more specifically Eurasians. It's not a negroid haplogroup, since negroids acquired E much later. Haplogroup E, descendent of M168, belongs to Eurasian Adam classification:

"And the first piece of evidence comes from one man in particular, who had a rather important, random mutation on his Y-chrosome between 31,000 and 79,000 years ago. He has been named, rather prosaically, M168.More evocatively, he could be seen as the Eurasian Adam - the great...great-grandfather of every non-African man alive today." Spencer Wells; 2002

"As we look more carefully at the arrangement of branches on the mitochondrial tree, we find that there is a similar pattern - all of the non-African mitochondrial branches descend from a particular branch of the tree trunk, implying that our M168 Adam was pared with an Eve. Thankfully, this Eurasian Eve lived around 50-60,000 years ago, suggesting that she and Eurasian Adam could have met. She is called by the rather mundane name L3 and her daughters accompanied the sons of M168 on their journey to populate the world. Based on the distribution of the descendants of M168 and L3 in Africa today, it is likekly that they both lived in north-east Africa, in the region of present-day Ethiopia and Sudan." Spencer Wells; 2002


"the major sub-sets of Y lineages that arose from the M168 lineage do not trace to an African origin." (Chandrasekar; 2007)

In the North African admixture thread has been discussed the later experiment made by Dienekes', showing West Eurasian influence in deep Sub-Saharan populations. It's noticeable that the mentioned populations with higher amounts of E, seem to be more Eurasian than the ones with higher haplogroup A & B frequencies. You can check the thread for details, as well as Dienekes' blog: http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/dual-origins-of-sub-saharan-africans.html

 

[LeBrok]

Middle East was the first place where Homo Sapiens from Africa met Neanderthals, his close cousin from Homo Erectus line. One can say that this was the firs mingling place or first adaptation of Sapiens to new climatic and nutritional conditions. Middle East is the place where we should see the first big shifts and haplogroup changes in out of Africa scenario.

 

[Eldritch]

I think E1b in Balkans is connected with Illyryans but there's one thing that puzzles me.
Did they come as Neolithic farmers and then retired into Mountains cause of Slavic migrations?

 

[Dianatomia]

how much is this E1b, greek . ?
Theodoros II despot of Morea ( 1407- 1443) brought in 50000 albanians into the Morea in his reign. they even revolted later


These numbers represent 40% of the morean population not including the Venetian strongholds.

40% of albanian E1b will greatly tilt the dna of the area.

Also, the area in kosovo would be a dardanian haplogroup . Some say they where illyric tribes other scholars say they where mixed with Thracians and not illyrians.

crete, epirus and greek macedonian hardly has this haplogroup

Venetian sources say that there were around 30000 Albanians in the Morea in the mid 15th century. The population of the Morea during that time is estimated to be around 350000. According to travelers and historians, ever since 1850, the population of Arvanites in the whole of Greece is estimated to be between 50000 and 200000.

Arvanites came from southern Albania, which has significantly less E1b compared to the Pelopponese.

 

[Yetos]

Venetian sources say that there were around 30000 Albanians in the Morea in the mid 15th century. The population of the Morea during that time is estimated to be around 350000. According to travelers and historians, ever since 1850, the population of Arvanites in the whole of Greece is estimated to be between 50000 and 200000.

Arvanites came from southern Albania, which has significantly less E1b compared to the Pelopponese.

Correct the data according Arbanites Clubs are about 60 000 of Attica Spetses Theba Arbanites from 1200 AD about, with 20 000 still speaking Arbanitika

also Gives about 50 000 Klefto-arbanites mainly in Epirus Thessaly from which still 10 000 speak kleftoarbanitika

and about 30-40 000 Aromani from Albania in Makedonia (Arbanto-Vlachs) from area of Moschopolis which primary language is Aromani.

 

[zanipolo]

Venetian sources say that there were around 30000 Albanians in the Morea in the mid 15th century. The population of the Morea during that time is estimated to be around 350000. According to travelers and historians, ever since 1850, the population of Arvanites in the whole of Greece is estimated to be between 50000 and 200000.

Arvanites came from southern Albania, which has significantly less E1b compared to the Pelopponese.

your numbers seem very high for the period. There are euro census on people numbers from the year 1410, with germany 16M, italy 13M, france 14M, spain 6M, england 5m and greece 1.2M etc etc , 350000 for morea is a third of the entire greek population, you can be correct but its doubtful especially as the ottomans , killed, destroyed villages, ruined the very profitable silk industry and also warred for centuries agains the morean mani people

 

[Dianatomia]

your numbers seem very high for the period. There are euro census on people numbers from the year 1410, with germany 16M, italy 13M, france 14M, spain 6M, england 5m and greece 1.2M etc etc , 350000 for morea is a third of the entire greek population, you can be correct but its doubtful especially as the ottomans , killed, destroyed villages, ruined the very profitable silk industry and also warred for centuries agains the morean mani people

Would you like to post a link for your data. Based on the data I've seen that there were around 4.5 mil Greeks between 15th and 18th century (compare: 1 mil Armenians). This of course includes Greeks from Asia Minor and the Islands.
1.2 Mil could only hold true for mainland Greece (incl. Morea) in that respect.

There were even more Greeks before the 14th century. Historically, Greeks were very numerous. Especially compared to what they are today. In the 2nd century AD, there were 6 mil Greeks in Greece and Asia Minor, while the world population was around 200 million. The Turks are not really responsible for a sharp decline of the Greek population, but rather a lack of growth in comparison to other populations.

 

[zanipolo]

Would you like to post a link for your data. Based on the data I've seen that there were around 4.5 mil Greeks between 15th and 18th century (compare: 1 mil Armenians). This of course includes Greeks from Asia Minor and the Islands.
1.2 Mil could only hold true for mainland Greece (incl. Morea) in that respect.

There were even more Greeks before the 14th century. Historically, Greeks were very numerous. Especially compared to what they are today. In the 2nd century AD, there were 6 mil Greeks in Greece and Asia Minor, while the world population was around 200 million. The Turks are not really responsible for a sharp decline of the Greek population, but rather a lack of growth in comparison to other populations.

data is from 2 books

1 - The new cambridge modern history I

2 - The mediterrateraen book I and book II by Fernand Braudel

 

[Dianatomia]

data is from 2 books

1 - The new cambridge modern history I

2 - The mediterrateraen book I and book II by Fernand Braudel

Thanks for the sources.

here are some other useful links:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.asp

And this useful Wiki link which is based on the "Atlas of World Population History".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Greece

It seems the estimates you proposed are based on geography i.e. the Greek peninsula or Greece proper. Not the Greek population as a whole. As for the Peloponesse, it was one of the most densely populated regions of Greece proper in medieval times.

Another source:
http://www.tulane.edu/~august/H303/handouts/Population.htm

 

[zanipolo]

Thanks for the sources.

here are some other useful links:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.asp

And this useful Wiki link which is based on the "Atlas of World Population History".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Greece

It seems the estimates you proposed are based on geography i.e. the Greek peninsula or Greece proper. Not the Greek population as a whole. As for the Peloponesse, it was one of the most densely populated regions of Greece proper in medieval times.

Another source:
http://www.tulane.edu/~august/H303/handouts/Population.htm

notice in your first link, the greece+balkans had 5M in 500AD, lost 2M by 650AD and gained again, mostly likely when the slavic migrations happened after 650AD.
What was the 2M loss, Romans or Goths departing??

 

[Yetos]

notice in your first link, the greece+balkans had 5M in 500AD, lost 2M by 650AD and gained again, mostly likely when the slavic migrations happened after 650AD.
What was the 2M loss, Romans or Goths departing??

Christians and Diseases

Christians

The greatest massacres of Greeks and depopulation had hapened by Christians and diseases, especially after 370 AD to 800 AD
estimation of 4 000 000 Greeks to be executed in the name of Jesus,
search Skythopolis, Σκυθοπολις,
today the name is Beth She'an
read the Constance B' orders and laws,

Placuit omnibus locis atque urbibus universis claudi protinus templa et accessu vetito omnibus licentiam deliquendi perditis abnegari. Volumus etiam cunctos sacrificiis abstinere. Quod si quis aliquid forte huiusmodi perpetraverit, gladio ultore sternatur. Facultates etiam perempti fisco decernimus vindicari et similiter puniri rectores provinciarum, si facinora vindicare neglexerint»

"Res Gestae Libri XXXI"

the story is saved by Αμμιανος Μαρκελινος
Ammianos Marcelinos or something like that
NAZI camp were nothing compare to it,
Holy inquisitors will Envy
a witch hunters paradise


the stories also exist in Christian chronicles of Σωζομενός
about the act of Pope of Alexandreia George Γεωργιος,


Greeks hide in North Balkans but Byzantine hired Goths and Alarih who burned down 80 towns for more than 40 years

http://xemandrios1.blogspot.com/2011/01/blog-post_1484.html


and since you do not understand Greek read in English


http://ethnikoi.org/katastrofi.htm

http://ethnikoi.org/persecutions.html


Greeks moved to West Roman parts but and there Ονουριος Honorius is the same

the massacre last Long enough, even after the Schisma.

DISEASES

Just consider how the above effect the Genetical Data,

and also loss of Medical, since the only Doctor is 'God' and the one who use medicines is a witch, a pagan, only pray save and cure, all the rest knowledge are Diabolic

only in Athens we have 2 depopulation from diseases until 911 AD and one 3rd at about 4rth Crusade.
But these diseases Saved the monuments since to many local people become a taboo to destroy them cause after a disease comes.


590 Era vulgaris
Rome
Pope of Rome Gregorios (the great) order to burn down the last working biblioteque the Apollonian
the last storage of ancient texts



the total estimation of Greek Holocaust is estimated 4 000 000 by some to 19 000 000 by others,
It is the biggest genocide ever done.

 

[Dianatomia]

notice in your first link, the greece+balkans had 5M in 500AD, lost 2M by 650AD and gained again, mostly likely when the slavic migrations happened after 650AD.
What was the 2M loss, Romans or Goths departing??

The quantitative fluctuation of the population during that time is not a Greek/Balkan phenomenon, but it is also detectable in other areas of Europe, Asia Minor and North Africa.

In any case, it is known that the Plague of Justinian (541-542) was one of the worst plagues in history. The Byzantine Empire lost almost a quarter of its population because of the plague.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian

Also, as Yetos mentioned, the spread of Christianity played its part. And it was a very important one.

The Slavic settlers could not have been so numerous so as to double the population of the Balkans. If you look at the third link you'll notice that Eastern Europe and Russia had 3 M people in 450 A.D. Not enough to repopulate the much more densely populated Byzantine world during that time. But they may have had an impact.

 

[albanopolis]

The Battaglia study found 19.3% E1b-V13 in Greek Macedonians. In the King study, elaborated on by Myres et al. later on, found 35.1% E1b-V13 in Thessaly (Sesklo-Dimini). On the island of Crete, King et al. found 7% suggesting that the elevated levels of G2 in the mountains may have played a part in containing the spread of E there.

Good point. The mountains block the spread of haplogroups. So haplogroup spread is the same like the wind. A mountain in front the wind stops.

 

[albanopolis]

I think E1b in Balkans is connected with Illyryans but there's one thing that puzzles me.
Did they come as Neolithic farmers and then retired into Mountains cause of Slavic migrations?

Its pellazgs, not Illyrian. Illyrians had J2 admixture and R1b,

 

[adamo]

I believe certain types of pelasgians where E3b and others where J2.

 

[MOESAN]

4 000 000 GREEKS killed for the sake of Jesus??? Hard to believe (not the possibility of cruel acts but the huge number...)

Pelasgians? Who were they: every kind of people is constantly put under this name without any proof (even if good sense could help to imagine sensible hypothesis, seen as bets only)

Illyrians Y-J2 et Y-R1b, AND only??? on what basis??? magicians???

 

[adamo]

No pelasgians where strictly not R1b. Some of their groups where J2, other different unassociated groups where E3b.

 

[albanopolis]

4 000 000 GREEKS killed for the sake of Jesus??? Hard to believe (not the possibility of cruel acts but the huge number...)

Pelasgians? Who were they: every kind of people is constantly put under this name without any proof (even if good sense could help to imagine sensible hypothesis, seen as bets only)

Illyrians Y-J2 et Y-R1b, AND only??? on what basis??? magicians???

Greek historians wrote that Pellasgians were the people inhabiting the region of west Turkey, Greece, Albania, Southern Italy, before the rest came. Hellenic historians wrote about their presence. All remains today from Pellasgs are some toponims. Example: Larissa in Greece, Lissus in Albania and some others

 

[adamo]

Larissa is linked to the word Lori , a region of Armenia home of the J2 pelasgians, a similar derivative name is Larino in Italy. Also there is an Ionian greek Cumae in southern Italy, Cumae on western coast of Anatolia and Cumae in Azerbaijan. Not to mention Cumae in pelasgian Euboea island of Greece. For one reason or another the Etruscans allied with the dauni subgroup of iapygians and aurunci also allied the self against expanding cumaean colonists. This may pertain to a link between iapygians ( dauni and in particular) and Etruscans. More recently, iapygians arrived from Crete to southern Italy, but further in time they are linked ( daunus and peucetis) as sons of Lycaon from lycaonia ( south central turkey) thus pertaining to a direct middle eastern link for Etruscans. Also, there is lucania in south Italy, basilicata district, an ancient province probably linked to Lycian/ lycaonians middle easterners. The capital of ancient lucania was Tursi; last names Turco and Greco run high in and near this region. The first middle easterners to arrive in that area in fact are believed to be the oenotrians, heavy wine producers as ancient Georgians, Azeris, Armenians, Turks where. The oenotrians stretched once from paestum campania to Calabria; oenotrius was another of the 50 sons linked to Lycaon from lycaonia. He was one of the youngest sons....they arrived in Italy in 1100 B.C., long before the later coming Greeks and before the Etruscans. A little bit of "Cuma" stretches from the shores of southern Italy to Azerbaijan....

 

[albanopolis]

Larissa is linked to the word Lori , a region of Armenia home of the J2 pelasgians, a similar derivative name is Larino in Italy. Also there is an Ionian greek Cumae in southern Italy, Cumae on western coast of Anatolia and Cumae in Azerbaijan. Not to mention Cumae in pelasgian Euboea island of Greece. For one reason or another the Etruscans allied with the dauni subgroup of iapygians and au ruin allied the self against expanding cumaean colonists. This may pertain to a link between iapygians ( dauni and in particular) and Etruscans. More recently, iapygians arrived from Crete to southern Italy, but further in time they are linked ( daunus and peucetis) as sons of Lycaon from lycaonia ( south central turkey) thus pertaining to a direct middle eastern link for Etruscans. Also, there is lucania in south Italy, basilicata district, an ancient province probably linked to Lycian/ lycaonians middle easterners. The capital of ancient lucania was Tursi; last names Turco and Greco run high in and near this region. The first middle easterners to arrive in that area in fact are believed to be the oenotrians, heavy wine producers as ancient Georgians, Azeris, Armenians, Turks where. The oenotrians stretched once from paestum campania to Calabria; oenotrius was another of the 50 sons linked to Lycaon from lycaonia. He was one of the youngest sons....they arrived in Italy in 1100 B.C., long before the later coming Greeks and before the Etruscans. A little bit of "Cuma" stretches from the shores of southern Italy to Azerbaijan....

Are these documented sources? Because the presence of Pellasgians is documented.