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Thread: How much Turks and Slavic influence the Greek genetic pool ?

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    How much Turks and Slavic influence the Greek genetic pool ?



    Speaking about greek genetic, especially with regard to the north of the country, we see a peak of I1, I2, I2a and R1a, these haplogroups, with some exceptions, may be charged to the Germanic and Slavic peoples; in northern Greece this haplogroups "take" half of the male population, with similar results, but also slightly lower, in central and southern Greece.
    We can do the same analysis for the quantity of J2 and J1, many are natives, but probably many arrived with the Ottoman invasions (We know that the Turks enlisted in their ranks many Arabs).
    What is the "genetic gift" of centuries of ottoman domination in Greece? And also: why almost 50% of the Greek population of the north seems to be of Slavic origin?

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    Autosomal data provides more concrete clues: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...COCa89AJ#gid=0

    According to this, Turks are more than 40% West Asian, while Greeks 25.7%. This could be ancient, however, there's not a huge distance between the Greek Southwest Asian and the Turkish one (6.8% and 8.9%), suggesting a more recent influence.

    11% East European between the Greeks looks significant in my book. The highest percent in all Southern Europe if we consider the Balkans apart.

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    So, according with these estimates, over 25% of the autosomal greek DNA is of Asian origin?

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    Not Asian (Mongoloid), but Near Eastern. And adding the Southwest Asian, it's over 30%.

    Yes, it's perfectly possible. In this regard Turks are more or less 50% Near Eastern.

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    So the purely Asian influence (southwest: mongoloid) is equal to 5% , while the remaining 25% is in the Near East, therefore, Turkish of Anatolia, Arabs, and so on and so forth. Interesting, I did not think that the Ottoman occupation of Greece had influenced so much.

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    No, wait. Southwest Asian refers to the Arabian Peninusula, so it's not considered Mongoloid. Northeast Asian and Southeast Asian are the main Mongoloid groups, and Greeks have very low scores there (probably noise in most cases). Turks for example have higher percents there, and also more South Asian, wich is something intermediate.

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    Ok, i was wrong couse in Italy we use the name "Asian" only to indicate the countries beyond Iran, generally.

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    Well, it's obvious the two components have some Asian affinities, but they don't deviate too much. Both are closer to Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Well, it's obvious the two components have some Asian affinities, but they don't deviate too much. Both are closer to Europe.
    Autosomal DNA distinguishes the differences nicely. The West Asian component should read Eastern Mediterranean but this would also be too inclusive and would suggest affinities to Northwest Africa which is less compared to the Med-Asian component.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    Speaking about greek genetic, especially with regard to the north of the country, we see a peak of I1, I2, I2a and R1a, these haplogroups, with some exceptions, may be charged to the Germanic and Slavic peoples; in northern Greece this haplogroups "take" half of the male population, with similar results, but also slightly lower, in central and southern Greece.
    We can do the same analysis for the quantity of J2 and J1, many are natives, but probably many arrived with the Ottoman invasions (We know that the Turks enlisted in their ranks many Arabs).
    What is the "genetic gift" of centuries of ottoman domination in Greece? And also: why almost 50% of the Greek population of the north seems to be of Slavic origin?
    The Mongolian Turks who carried Asiatic-Mongoloid Haplogroups is a tiny fraction of the Turkish population and it appears Turks are in general local Anatolians for the most part. You will not find Mongoloid haplogroups in the Greek population. The Slavic admixture in Greeks is from the Eastern Roman Empire and can be seen in M458+ Greek men. This is found in about 5% of Greek men in Northern Greece and represents 15-20% of R1a in North Greece.

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    The best to understand what the componenets mean and imply, is to check a single component in comparison to the rest: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Pw7x-HD7ON.../s1600/fst.png

    For example, it's perfectly clear that West Asian deviates towards Mongoloids (Northeast and Southeast Asian), while Southwest Asian has not incredibly high Mongoloid affinties (note for example that East and West European deviate even more) and it's much closer to Africans than the West Asian is. That gives a clue about the geographic location, matching exceedingly well the Caucasus in the first case, and the Arabian Peninsula in the second one.

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    5% seems a little bit, since the percentage of almost 50% of R1a, I1, I2 and I2a in Northern Greece (and the frequencies of nearly 20/30% in the rest of Greece).
    On average we are talking about almost 30% of the Greek population.
    And I'm not considering the percentage of R1b Slavic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    5% seems a little bit, since the percentage of almost 50% of R1a, I1, I2 and I2a in Northern Greece (and the frequencies of nearly 20/30% in the rest of Greece).
    Battaglia found 16.3% R1a in Greek Macedonians and 10% in the general Greek population.
    King found 21% in Greek Macedonia and 10.5% in Thessaly.

    Underhill found that Slavic R1a in Poland contained 35% M458 whereas in Greece this Slavic admixture was significantly reduced:
    Greece = 4.2% M458
    Greek Macedonia = 8.8% M458
    Slavo-Macedonia = 3.8% M458

    Therefore we can work out what the Slavic admixture in Greece would have been. If 4.2% of Total Greek R1a is M458 and typical Slavic admixture has approximately 35% M458 of Total R1a, we can estimate it and say (35/100 x 10) x 0.42 = 1.47% est. Slavic admix. within total Greek pop.

    Similarly, Slavic R1a in Greek Macedonia: (35/100 x 20) x 0.88 = 6.16% est. Slavic R1a

    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    On average we are talking about almost 30% of the Greek population.
    And I'm not considering the percentage of R1b Slavic
    What are you trying to say?
    Last edited by Dorianfinder; 08-09-11 at 16:20.

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    Sorry I did not understand your perplexity: i'm saying that, apparently, a good part of the Greeks descended from Slavs arrived in Byzantine age and post-Byzantine age. I see on Eupedia that the frequency of R1a in all Greece is 11.50, and i also think that not only M458 it's slavic, so the percentage can improve.
    However, remain the I1, I2 and I2a (present in Greece in a really good quantitative), Slavo-Germanic? We must remember that the Goths (and all the other people who come with Goths) in Roman time, were made to allocate in Greece as "foederati", for example.
    But we can also assume that the Turks have "put" in some gaps in Greece some Slavic settlers, much easier to control for them.

    Other important issue is Turkish: how many J1, J2 and E arrived in Greece through the centuries of Ottoman rule? J1 was typically Semitic, for example, and could be reached by Arab soldiers of the Ottoman army

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    Where are you taking from that all (or most) Greek must be Slavic? R1a has been in Europe since the copper age. The Greeks, like the Germanics, Balts and Slavs, speak an Indo-European language. Isn't it likely that at least some, if not a sizable fraction, of Greek R1a is derived from the Proto-Indo-Europeans? Especially non-M458 R1a.

    Consider, for comparison, that R1a reaches 20% in Scandinavia.

    Regarding "Turkish" I think that is a big misnomer. For one, the vast bulk of the modern population of Turkey is essentially pre-Turkic. The question should not be how much Turkish influence is there in the genetic pool of the modern Greeks, but how much Anatolian influence? Consider that the Byzantines controlled Anatolia for many centuries, and that the center of Byzantine power was western Anatolia, and not modern-day Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    Sorry I did not understand your perplexity
    What would you like me to explain?

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    I do not want explain and i don now want somebody explain to me, I simply raised a question on the genetics and Greece and I would like to compare myself with other peoples.

    I do not think that the "pre-Indo-European R1a" 'is a wildcard that we can use when we want. And 'certainly likely that some of R1a in Greece, as in other countries, are pre-Indo-Europeans, but to say that 9-10% of R1a in Greece is pre Indo-European seems excessive.
    In Italy, France and Spain, there are percentages of R1a, of course, but if they were related mainly to the pre Indo-European peoples they would be most frequently in these countries, which did not happen.
    However, we are neglecting I1, I2 and I2b, and we are work only on R1a.

    For the Turkish question,

    Of course, a good part of the Turkish population comes, to date, to the old Anatolian peoples, but many are descended from Arabs and Kurds Also as with the Ottomans, this is a fact Also Justified by the high presence of J1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    I do not want explain and i don now want somebody explain to me, I simply raised a question on the genetics and Greece and I would like to compare myself with other peoples.

    I do not think that the "pre-Indo-European R1a" 'is a wildcard that we can use when we want. And 'certainly likely that some of R1a in Greece, as in other countries, are pre-Indo-Europeans, but to say that 9-10% of R1a in Greece is pre Indo-European seems excessive.
    In Italy, France and Spain, there are percentages of R1a, of course, but if they were related mainly to the pre Indo-European peoples they would be most frequently in these countries, which did not happen.
    However, we are neglecting I1, I2 and I2b, and we are work only on R1a.
    Sorry, at no point me, or anybody else here, said that R1a was "Pre-Indo-European". I said "Proto-Indo-European" (big difference!). I'm not using it in any excessive way if we consider that R1a accounts for approximately 20% in Scandinavia. The original spread of R1a in Europe probably occured in the Chalcolithic with the spread of the Corded Ware Culture, which, through it's offshot (the Battle Axe Culture) spread into southern Scandinavia. We obviously do not know when the Proto-Greek speakers arrived in Greece, and from where they arrived, but if they arrived from the Black Sea areas (which is certainly plausible) then it's entirely plausible that they were, to a fair degree, carriers of R1a.

    I agree of course that there are possibilities how R1a could be younger, and I also will not rule out that a fraction of it is Slavic (the fact that there is R1a-M458 in Greece suggests that there prettymuch is), but I doubt for the above described reasons that R1a in Greece is exclusively Slavic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    I do not want explain and i don now want somebody explain to me, I simply raised a question on the genetics and Greece and I would like to compare myself with other peoples.

    I do not think that the "pre-Indo-European R1a" 'is a wildcard that we can use when we want. And 'certainly likely that some of R1a in Greece, as in other countries, are pre-Indo-Europeans, but to say that 9-10% of R1a in Greece is pre Indo-European seems excessive.
    In Italy, France and Spain, there are percentages of R1a, of course, but if they were related mainly to the pre Indo-European peoples they would be most frequently in these countries, which did not happen.
    However, we are neglecting I1, I2 and I2b, and we are work only on R1a.
    R1a is Indo-European. What do you mean by pre-Indo-European R1a?

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    Yes, i'm sorry i translate bad the word. In fact I'm not saying that all R1a in Greece are Slavic, but it seems excessive to say that only 1,47% of it was Slavic, and the remaining 10.5% (approximate) was proto Indo-European.

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    I2a2 , I2b and I1 are not Slavic . Who said anything about Pre - IE R1a , carriers of Hellen languague - IE was probably significantly R1a .
    So the Thracians probably had some R1a - they languague was closest to Balto-Slavic.
    On Balkans - Serbia , Bosnia , Macedonia , there is 11.000 years old R1a , and Slavic is old about 3.500 years .
    I think Slavic settlement on Balkans are exejurated
    Turkic settlement on Balkan was also not significant , except in Thrace . Most of governors were islamized lokal nobility . Similarities betwen Greek and Turkic DNA is mostly arived from Greek settlements in Asia Minor during antiquity and Byzantium , not from Turkic settlements in Greece

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    I say slavo-germanic.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...europe.shtml#I

    I think I2a is slavic, honestly I do not think is Illyrian.

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    I1 and I2B, arrived with the barbarian invasions? Perhaps with the migration of the Goths?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    Yes, i'm sorry i translate bad the word. In fact I'm not saying that all R1a in Greece are Slavic, but it seems excessive to say that only 1,47% of it was Slavic, and the remaining 10.5% (approximate) was proto Indo-European.
    The R1a in Greece is spread evenly throughout much of Greece at approximately 10%. It is in Northern Greece where we find R1a climbs to approximately 20%. The levels of Slavic R1a suggest a much later introduction of Slavic R1a in the North, this is proven by the fact that in the R1a of Greek Macedonia we only find 8.8% of the Slavic M458. This marker is only found in 4.2% of the general Greek population and has not been found in Greek R1a in Calabria that I know of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    I say slavo-germanic.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...europe.shtml#I

    I think I2a is slavic, honestly I do not think is Illyrian.
    Me neither think it is Illyrian , but nor the Slavic , it is Sarmathian

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