Did E1b1b cross directly from North Africa to Europe due to climate change ?

The test of Neolithic DNA have been carried out in Central Germany, south West France and Austria. I think we need DNA samples from South Eastern Europe or Northern Iberia to find E1b somewhere.

Oh, I definitely agree. There's also a few cases (Beaker-Bell, Funnelbeaker) where ancient DNA tests only yielded mitochondrial DNA, and we all know how problematic it is to correlate mitochondrial and Y-chromosomal DNA.
 
I wrote Western Iberia. It's not an impression. I compiled the stats and made the maps.



Are you one of those Iberian nihilist who pass their time playing down any African or Middle Eastern influence amongst Iberians ?



And did you get that idea from what I and others wrote in the last 3 or 4 years ?

Actually, imho, I think the term "nihilist" is much more appropriate for some non-Iberian Eupedia members.
 
Totally desagree. It's more likely this has been listed as Southwest Asian than Mediterranean. It correlates both runs (K=10 and K=12), where this admixture (Southwest Asian) is also measurable in Iberians and other ethnic groups. At least, the Mediterranean component hasn't increased more than 2% in the spanish average in comparison with the previous run, and it's listed even far from non European groups.That means it should even get lower, not higher.

If you see some differences from a run to another it's just due to the number of components (10 before, now 12). None of the clusters mean exactlty the same, and that's more obvious checking East and West Euro. Those two have increased more the averges, so it's plain impossible that Mediterranean include such influences and the others nothing. Not reasonable.

The E-M78 map from Oxford Journals looks quite ilustrative: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300/F2.large.jpg

I meant E-M78 and all its subclades (V13, V12, V22, V65, etc.). The Southwest Asian component is very minor in Europe (max. 10% in the Sicilians, while Greeks have only 6.8%). Haplogroup J1 and T are enough to make up for all the Southwest Asian in Europe. Where do the 20 to 30% E1b1b from the Southern Balkans fit if not in the Mediterranean component ?
 
Very easy, it fits in the West Asian component together with the Southwest Asian, althought the estimation is not perfect since most autosomes can be replaced easily in thousands of years. At least, that makes more sense because the West Asian is closer to Southwest Asian than the Mediterranean is in this run. Also, K=10 shows higher proportions of West Asian and Southwest Asian than the new one in all populations, it's important to keep this in mind, and wonder how is it possible that Iberians get a bit more Mediterranean in average, when according to the distances they should get less proportionally.

And there are two possibilities:

1- Most E-M78 migrants changed quite of the Southwest Asian autosomes in their way around Anatolia and the Caucassus (West Asian). Then, in the Balkans, the autosomes changed again (Mediterranean and others).

2- Admixture simply confused Southwest Asian and read the admixture as West Asian in quite cases. Some of this things usually happen when you have components very similar to each other. At Eurogenes this happened several times while trying to separate concrete regions and some people got significant amounts of admixtures they didn't expect. You can separate quite good Georgians from Saudis focussing in these clusters, but, ¿what about populations who carry substantially less of each admixture? Not so easy.

And want to remark, again, that in this run Mediterranean is more removed from the non European groups than it was before at K=10. So it means even more European than the other one named as Southern European. The names can "lie", but the distances don't. Actually, the East and the West European, are the components who have increased more the non European affinities in comparison with the Northern European cluster (K=10). That explains how Polish people who were 87-88% European before, now at K=12 show near 100% European. Time to wonder what this clusters include, since the Mediterranean is not precisely the best example to do so.

Also, you have examples of populatios with a lot of E, as the Passiegos (40%), with no connection with Africans and similar populations. So haplogroups are not a definitive answer, LOTS of factors must be considered. I don't understand such insistance in the use of haplogroups to give an answer in modern populations, knowing what this means. Genetics are not that simple.
 
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Sepharid Jews or "Spanish" Jews are well known to carry E1b1b and would explain why the Iberian peninsula shows high percentages of this haplogroup.

It's not science fiction. It's a well known marker of Jews and would explain the high prevalence in Portugal, where the slave trade occurred and inbreeding possibly.
 
I think you are quite correct in your assumption that E1b1b is (partly, of course) Pre-Neolithic in Iberia, Maciamo. How else could one explain its high ocurrence in places such as Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, and Castile&Leon (with 22%, 14%, 11% and 16% respectively)? Agriculture only arrived in the Late Neolithic (and in many if not most areas only with the arrival of megalithism), Muslim occupation was quite short (especially in the former 3) and Sephardic Jews were not very numerous (except in some areas of C&L). It is also worth noting that in N. Iberia, where E1b1b is high, I (the only other pre-Neolithic haplogroup) is low (and vice-versa).
 
Sepharid Jews or "Spanish" Jews are well known to carry E1b1b and would explain why the Iberian peninsula shows high percentages of this haplogroup.

It's not science fiction. It's a well known marker of Jews and would explain the high prevalence in Portugal, where the slave trade occurred and inbreeding possibly.
Actually Italy is the country with more Sephardic influence if I remember well, so not "Spanish" at all. Jews were banned and expulsed from the Peninsula by the Catholic Kings in a substantial degree, and most of them went to Italy, Turkey, and other places. It's perfectly reported in the historical documents that after the expulsion, the Spanish society of the moment suffered a hard economic crisis due to this. That's what it's not science fiction.

Also, if the Jewish influence was that huge, more West Asian and Southwest Asian should appear in autosomal results. Of course, it's not the case, so I'm afraid there's no significant connection between haplogroup E and the Sephardic presence in Spain.
 
Actually Italy is the country with more Sephardic influence if I remember well, so not "Spanish" at all. Jews were banned and expulsed from the Peninsula by the Catholic Kings in a substantial degree, and most of them went to Italy, Turkey, and other places. It's perfectly reported in the historical documents that after the expulsion, the Spanish society of the moment suffered a hard economic crisis due to this. That's what it's not science fiction.

Also, if the Jewish influence was that huge, more West Asian and Southwest Asian should appear in autosomal results. Of course, it's not the case, so I'm afraid there's no significant connection between haplogroup E and the Sephardic presence in Spain.

Not to mention the fact that if there was a large Sephardic contribution, it would have been in places like Aragon and Cataluña, but they have only 5% and 3% E1b1b...
 
Actually Italy is the country with more Sephardic influence if I remember well, so not "Spanish" at all. Jews were banned and expulsed from the Peninsula by the Catholic Kings in a substantial degree, and most of them went to Italy, Turkey, and other places. It's perfectly reported in the historical documents that after the expulsion, the Spanish society of the moment suffered a hard economic crisis due to this. That's what it's not science fiction.

Also, if the Jewish influence was that huge, more West Asian and Southwest Asian should appear in autosomal results. Of course, it's not the case, so I'm afraid there's no significant connection between haplogroup E and the Sephardic presence in Spain.

The spanish inquistion in around 1480 to remove non christians from Iberia, led to the Moriscos. basically jews and moors who where baptized christians so that they could remain in Iberia. The dna remained amid to a lesser percent.

The jews that fled, went either to Portugal , but castilian pressure on Portugal forced these jews to move to antwerp or they went to Italy, usually tuscany or the duchy of Ferrara. The ones that wanted to go further went to Venice to be transported to the Levant or went to Poland via augsbug.
 
The spanish inquistion in around 1480 to remove non christians from Iberia, led to the Moriscos. basically jews and moors who where baptized christians so that they could remain in Iberia. The dna remained amid to a lesser percent.

The jews that fled, went either to Portugal , but castilian pressure on Portugal forced these jews to move to antwerp or they went to Italy, usually tuscany or the duchy of Ferrara. The ones that wanted to go further went to Venice to be transported to the Levant or went to Poland via augsbug.

And the Moriscos were also expelled in the beggining of the XVIIth century
 
Anyone can explain me something!!! If haplogroup E of Albania is let say 27% of male population, can't we suppose that aproximately that many women in percentage came from the same region of the world, where E male population came. My view is that if they came by land they took their women with them. How does it work? It may sound naive but I am not a genetist.
 

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